Garth, I'm not sure I can remember well enough to give a definitive answer, so my answer will be based on a combination of my memory and connections/conclusions I made on my own. Hard to separate at times, especially years later.
Your question miscarachterizes what I think they're after. It would be more helpful to say this: You cannot do anything directly about those who have wronged you. I mean, you can't make them have a change of heart and suddenly come and with a truly repentant heart, offer apologies and make meaningful amends. If your wholeness depends on that, you will remain the victim, while the wrongdoer walks blithely along, unaware and untroubled by your broken life.
The Momentus exercises seemed to do a good job getting me to a place inside myself where I could really let those people go and offer real forgiveness. It also brought me to the place of facing where I've wronged others. Where possible I repented and attempted to make appropriate amends. Now, I'm talking Momentus at its idealized best. Of course I fell somewhere short of doing a full job of what I just described.
People come out it ecstatic & enlightened because they've just had an emotional enema, so to speak. I felt 50 pounds lighter. I had some clarity on my strengths & shortcomings. The problem is that people come out thinking that feeling is what the training is all about. It's a very nice feeling, but the experience is of real benefit only if somebody actually puts rubber to the road and walks out what has become clear. In my experience it is terribly rare. In my case, I walked out a bit of it, but never really out my plan into full effect. I have only myself to blame for that. But I am grateful for what lasting changes I did make.
Okay, that helps clear somethings up a bit. Then again, I notice that you put "Now, I'm talking Momentus at its idealized best." That reminds me of the adage about "it works great on paper, but in real life ...". Heh! Ain't that the truth.
First off, your experience is your experience, and if you want to hold on to that experience as a positive one, no one can begrudge you of that. Basically I was coming more from a 'generic' angle endeavoring to deal with the overall facts that effect everybody. It's kinda like that with TWI, where some of us have gotten good out of it, whereas others have gotten ziltch. But (as you well know) there are overriding facts about TWI, Wierwille and Co. that transcend our own personal experiences. Same with Momentus.
And some of the accounts from the supposedly 'disgruntled' participants go beyond, I think, the 'YMMV, this show's not for everyone' kind of description. And of course, I've read of some of the passing of the buck that was disguised as the 'take responsibility for yourself' facade by at least some of the instructors.
quote:
You cannot do anything directly about those who have wronged you. I mean, you can't make them have a change of heart and suddenly come and with a truly repentant heart, offer apologies and make meaningful amends.
Maybe not a change of heart, but then again (if applicable) jail time would go a long way. Failing that, a total thrashing of their once high standing and reputation tends to help assuage the pain I imagine.
And sure as hell not this "You are culpable as well in what has happened to you" song-and-dance.
That statement, IMO is precisely the crux of this matter.
I never said that. I don't think anyone who practices principles regarding taking personal responsiblity for one's ENTIRE life does either.
Your statement:
quote:
Taking responsibility (and not culpability) for what you do in response that is independent of what has happened to you and learning from it, yes.
is a LOT closer to what I'm saying.
You MUST separate what YOU did from what THEY did, COMPLETELY. PERIOD.
i.e.: I went into the motorcoach HE attacked me.
I am not culpable in HIS attack. However, I DID place myself in his proximity. I'm not responsible for HIS perversion of MY intent which was OBVIOUSLY to VISIT with a minister.
I fully expected him to MINISTER, as is the true NATURE of a minister. (the connection withthe scorpion is only in the fact of, "this is what I do." I, as a scorpion have a natural propensity to sting. I as a minister have a natural propensity towards minstering.
A thief steals, a runner runs, a teacher, teaches, etc. AND a PREDATOR, preys.
Unless a victim can successfully SEPARATE their own actions from that of the attacker, THEIR own actions WILL torment them.
The torment is about facts, not guilt. The guilt storms down on the victim because the fact is UNDENIABLE. AFTER the incident has occurred, you cannot deny that YOU walked in of your own accord.
You can be freed by saying, YES! I walked in. BUT. That Predator preyed on me. He is responsible for the attack not me.
Your response blurred this all so crucial distinction Garth. Its not about them being able to help themselves. AFTER the occurrence of the incident. The attacker, what he can and cannot help is COMPLETELY irrelevant to you, the victim. You're dealing with YOUR ownership of the pain, Your ownership of the damage, your desire to be healed.
The attacker is irrelevant and separate to that process. His relevance ends with YES HE did this to me, HE is the CAUSE, the FAULT is HIS. My culpability ends at thhis point. AND MY culpability has NOTHING to do with what HE did TO me.
I followed the Way, IT was a cult. THEY decieved ME, I was honestly seeking God. I hate them for what they did, but I am beyond that NOW.
I will not follow any other cults. I will be MORE CAREFUL in my choices regarding who I follow and WHY I follow them.
I AM now more careful. I use what I've learned about cult behavior (THEIR cult behavior) to make a positive difference in the church I attend NOW.
I have NO problem sitting through any classes offered, I know MY culpability ends with my desire to learn, Theirs deals with their intent in what they are teaching.
I am less apt to accept ANYTHING anyone says, because YOU may be a scorpion in disguise JUST LIKE VPW WAS.
Catch my drift? I'm personally responsible for what happens TO me. I don't care what YOUR nature is, I will better protect myself (from "you") than I did in the past.
I think the point of Momentus training that is mised here is personal responsibility and accountibility. That is why there is a need for "hold harmless documents" - primarily to get the person to take responsibility for their own decision in the matter.
oh i thought the "hold harmless documents" started to protect momentus trainers after people were being carted off to the looney bin
What happens then when you get caught by surprise? Or are forced into something?
Where is your supposed 'culpability' then?
And thank you for the 'scorpion in disguise' back handed remark. ;)--> At least with me, when I insult you, ... you'll know it. Because I'm more up front about it.
-->
And yes, I catch your drift. And while it has valid points, there are still sizeable flaws. And I never read where Jesus Christ talked the same psychobabble. His holding people accountable was more, ... how do I say this, honest. As in he didn't hold people accountable when they weren't, on either/both sides of the situation. I even remember when he blamed the pharisees for "making them the twicefold child as yourselves", ie., their students. Yet look who he's pointing his finger at.
quote:
I followed the Way, IT was a cult. THEY decieved ME, I was honestly seeking God. I hate them for what they did, but I am beyond that NOW.
I will not follow any other cults. I will be MORE CAREFUL in my choices regarding who I follow and WHY I follow them.
((smiles)) You speak of that term as tho' it was a lock solid clinical term. It is a term that has far more psycho-hype in it than you might realize. You might be surprised at what passes for a 'cult' more or less, and the ((cough)) 'standards' used to determine such. ... There are those who use that term in regards to Momentus, my friend. And with equally persuading arguments. ;)-->
Sorry chief, but, as per the "looks good on paper, but in real life ..." example, there are significant areas/examples where Momentus just doesn't live up to 'the promises on the green card' so to speak, or in their practices, wind up hurting more people more than they realize, ... or have the 'self-responsibility' to admit.
I was speaking of a general "you" as in "people" or more specifically as "you" the victim, Not YOU, the Garth.
quote:
You MUST separate what YOU did from what THEY did, COMPLETELY. PERIOD.
...could have just as easily been written as:
A victim must COMPLETELY separate what they did in relationship TO the attack from what the attacker did IN the attack. PERIOD.
quote:
What happens then when you get caught by surprise? Or are forced into something?
Where is your supposed 'culpability' then?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think pretty much ANY time you get attacked, you're caught by surprise AND forced into something you don't want.
You're NOT catching my drift Garth. Can I say it ANY more clearly than this as follows?
NO Victim is in ANY way culpable for the ATTACK. The full extent of a victim's culpability ends with PROXIMITY.
Eg: I parked my car outside my home. A BURGULAR broke into it and stole my stereo. My culpability ends with my parking the car.
I am in NO WAY culpable for the BURGULAR breaking in and stealing my stereo.
I'm STILL confronted with a measure of irrational guilt, "If only I had parked somewhere else, he might not have hit my car."
To deal with the irrational, emotional connection, I take a good hard look at what I did.
In so doing I "discover" and acknowledge and finally BELIEVE... HEY! I had EVERY right to park where I did, Its MY car! It was in front of MY home! THE BURGULAR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HEDID TO ME. I feel bad because of what HE did, NOT what I did. I CAN feel OK with what I did, because what I did was FINE.
I'm not attacking YOU Garth.
Its not psychobabble to acknowledge that victims of sexual indescretion often feel responsible for the attack. My mother was attacked and viciously raped - - long before I was born. Her psyche was damaged.
She told me when I was a young teen of how for years SHE felt somehow responsible for the attack. She spoke of how she felt, "If only I had left five minutes later... maybe ten minutes earlier... If I had done something differently to put me in a different PLACE at s slightly different TIME, then I wouldn't feel as I do now. It wouldn't have happened to me if I wasn't THERE."
That's what my Mom told me. After she separated herself from her attackers actions, the process helped her to heal.
I have three beautiful daughters. I'm not about to have them go out into the world ill prepared for its realities because I hold onto worthless psycho-babble.
oh i thought the "hold harmless documents" started to protect momentus trainers after people were being carted off to the looney bin
yeah that's what i thought too excathedra
it could be the reason
getting into a group session that forces issues with peer pressure and tactics is a dangerous game...
no insurance company would cover such an event knowing what they were going to insure.
now i've never done the momentus thing myself so i can't say much
confession is good for the soul as they say but to
force this issue with such high stakes....
dangerous for those involved
you better ****ing know what you are doing buddy
and you better SEE when to pull someone out
of the group..you are playing with fire
if it is the Lord's work you will know it and He can counter any attack on you that comes to the surface....and you can recognize it too-an attack-condemnation from anyone or anything you see in the mind or otherwise in a situation like this will be seen for what it is-it's a lie designed to throw you off of the love of God
this i HAVE seen this for real, in the mind, and in other ways, without anyone around
there is no condemnation or judgement-judgement as in God is going to hurt you-it's a lie
this is an interesting exchange, I never took momentous.
But I have been a victim. It took me decades to stop blaming my own self . the what if the why me etc, can and will follow through an entire life time.
I father NEVER recovered from my mothers death and no one really knew why.
if I had entered a program like momentous in my early years of dealing with a life long struggle to over come "being a victim" I would have probably gone nuts. or killed someone.
the brain can only acept so much reality, some more than others and it has alot to do with timing and what Eles is stressor your life to deal with the reality to "let go" and let God.
It is a nice thing to empower oneself to be a protected bunny in this world full of scorpians.
how powerful is That? well I could walk around my whole life in a shield from humanity and all its hurt and pain it offered.
I found it to be far to lonely.
people hurt people, it is what WE do. amoung other much more joyful and happy and loving things in life.
I aint going to spend my life building protections in my mind to safe guard against the next bad guy. I really do not think that bunny knew trusting is such a bad thing. Im sorry he died.
But living a life with the thought I had BETTER know what is a possible very evil NATURE in every person or beast or bad car or bee sting sounds a bit lonely and paranoid and unnormal and self CONDEMING if something does go wrong.
I believe we are all victims, that is why we need a God.
I do not want to play in an arena where it is but they didnt get me cause IM so darn sharp. or they got me but it doesnt hurt me oh no not me IM wise and good and LEARNED from it.
Screw that it hurts like hell. to be any kind of victim. learned or not. the best I can hope for is to be around to say to someone eles ouch I know that hurts how can I help. Does it really matter who the hell is responsible ? does it help anyone?
I do believe victims can rise above alot of pain.
but honestly I do not think the pain goes away, ever, it never gets understood, or explained away most of the time .. Pain is a human condition. it is where the great songs , poems, art, and expression of humainty at its richest live. being in pain means being a victim.
or we can all walk around with this invisable armour of God and pretend nothing bad or evil ever could or did or would happen in life and forget about living. How many lesson can one learn in life? Lord I must be on the high end spectrum of what the hell can go wrong now for all the lessons I have learned and Yes become victims of. No more scorpians because my friend the bunny taught us all that one as we still cry for his death. But how now do I seek a new friend bunny with the pain of losing him in such a frightening scary way? what did I do to be responsible for this? Im a victim. oh no maybe not Im a smart bunny I Learned not to allow those bugs on my back on the stream!!!!!
haha good for me . but I still miss him , how about that? better not be a victim, of life.
well...in the insurance businessthere is liability coverage
for instance in the window cleaning business-liability coverage covers everything but the window. if i broke a 10,000 dollar vase or something they would pay for it (minus the deductible)
the window is considered to be in your "care, custody and control" and is not covered under liability but can be covered with insurance IF they want to take this risk, and the premium is a whole lot higher-and i mean a lot higher
in this momentus thing it is people's lives that are in your care custody and control
About 7 years ago, I was approached by some former twiers, all of them connected with CES...their mission was to recruit me into the next Momentus training...they lauded it to the sky..."better than pfal...greatest thing since sliced bread...life changing...you just GOTTA do it"...that's all I heard from these folks...
Of course, my bull.... meter started redlining...so I went onto the internet and checked out everything I could find about Momentus...found out that it was an "offshoot" of LifeSpring which was an "offshoot" of the old EST training...had nothing to do with Christianity until the Momentus folks decided to paint a thin veneer of "bible words" on it and gave it a different name...
In all honesty, I listened to the pros and the cons...weighed it all out and decided..."Are you kidding me?...no chance I'm gonna take that thing"
I even attended the Momentus "public explanation" meeting...or whatever they called it...at the end of the meeting they asked if anyone had any questions...nobody did...until I started talking...I asked them about "LifeSpring", I asked them to explain the points made by the anti-Momentus folks from the internet...I was quickly "hushed up" and taken to a room alone. I guess they didn't want the other "newbies" to hear what I was saying...
The interesting part of this whole process, was that the folks from CES who were trying to recruit me, were as sweet and kind to me as you can imagine...until I informed them that I was not interested in taking Momentus...then they showed their true colors...One woman screamed at me...yes, she screamed..."WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE?"...they became very hostile towards me...of course, that only reinforced my decision to not take Momentus. In fact, when I got home that night, I called JAL on the phone to let him know what I thought of Momentus and his connection to it...we "discussed" the matter for about an hour on the phone. Neither of us had changed our opinion by the end of the conversation...
...and all those CES/Momentus folks who were singing the praises of Momentus?...within a year of taking it...EVERY ONE of their lives were in shambles. One guy in particular...he insisted on confessing to his wife that he had had an affair with another woman 5 years earlier...he told me that because of the Momentus training, he knew that he had to "get honest" with her about this...shortly after his confession, his wife left him and took all the kids with her...his life went into the toilet.
Let me see if I understand the Momentus way of thinking, from this example...The guy decided that to ease his own guilty conscience, he would burden his wife with this devasting information...that way, they would become closer because of the pure honesty of it all...
...I think maybe they should have thrown HIM out of the "lifeboat" first.
"Your life will change over the period of a weekend if you take our training"...Sorry, life just doesn't work that way.
Oh yeah...I found it rather interesting when they all "ganged up on me"...trying to convince me that I should share all my "secret sins" with them...I figured that they got suckered into sharing THEIR secret sins during the Momentus training and now they were looking for someone stupid enough to follow their lead...No thanks...one cult experience was enough for me.
All of you Christians out there...would Jesus make you sign a "hold harmless" clause before he started "training" you???
But...but...Groucho. Don't you know that *you* are responsible for allowing yourself to be in that situation to begin with. And it was *your* fault for asking too many probing questions. ;)-->
No doubt that guy who lost his wife and kids and whose life went into the toilet; they'd probably lay all the responsibility and culpability all on him too, if they ever met up with him again.
HCW, apparently these Momentus folks aren't as advertised, what with their song-and-dance about self-discovery, being biblically responsible and all. Remember, "They look good on paper, but in real life .....".
You make a point I meant to at least imply, Garth.
"Forgiving" a person who has wronged you doesn't mean you've released them from consequences. If prosecution is in order, let it happen. I'm thinking especially of molesters. The molester will never be able to make full amends to those he's wronged. The victim needs to emotionally release the perp so as not to remain under that person's power. Meanwhile, by all means, I want the perp rotting in jail.
Reading Evan's posts on this subject, I realize that not everyone who takes Momentus ends up in a straight jacket...
...but can this "training" be considered Christian? I mean, we can all drop some acid and sing Jesus songs...that doesn't make doing LSD a Christian experience.
I do agree that it's not healthy to hold on to bitterness when someone wrongs you. Embracing bitterness only hurts the person who is bitter...apologizing to folks that you have hurt is a good thing...forgiving those who hurt you is also a good thing...but the Momentus folks that I had contact with were fanatical about it and ,IMHO, had slipped off the deep end...
...and I have yet to see anyone address Garth's question of...if personal accountability is so important, why the hold harmless clause?
Well, i concluded it to be, for me, profoundly Christian. Not particularly in doctrine, but insofar as the goal is to get one's actions to line up with their mouth, a goal mostly unmet in christian circles.
On the other hand, I've never suggested to anybody that they go. On yet another hand, one or two people who liked what they saw & heard after I did it themselves went. with mixed results.
Thank you for your confidence, exc, but I know what evil lurks in my sin-darkened heart.
But now that I'm thinking about it, I probably took it that way because it is my dominant worldview...I see things through my Christian lens, so to speak.
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TheEvan
Garth, I'm not sure I can remember well enough to give a definitive answer, so my answer will be based on a combination of my memory and connections/conclusions I made on my own. Hard to separate at times, especially years later.
Your question miscarachterizes what I think they're after. It would be more helpful to say this: You cannot do anything directly about those who have wronged you. I mean, you can't make them have a change of heart and suddenly come and with a truly repentant heart, offer apologies and make meaningful amends. If your wholeness depends on that, you will remain the victim, while the wrongdoer walks blithely along, unaware and untroubled by your broken life.
The Momentus exercises seemed to do a good job getting me to a place inside myself where I could really let those people go and offer real forgiveness. It also brought me to the place of facing where I've wronged others. Where possible I repented and attempted to make appropriate amends. Now, I'm talking Momentus at its idealized best. Of course I fell somewhere short of doing a full job of what I just described.
People come out it ecstatic & enlightened because they've just had an emotional enema, so to speak. I felt 50 pounds lighter. I had some clarity on my strengths & shortcomings. The problem is that people come out thinking that feeling is what the training is all about. It's a very nice feeling, but the experience is of real benefit only if somebody actually puts rubber to the road and walks out what has become clear. In my experience it is terribly rare. In my case, I walked out a bit of it, but never really out my plan into full effect. I have only myself to blame for that. But I am grateful for what lasting changes I did make.
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GarthP2000
Evan,
Okay, that helps clear somethings up a bit. Then again, I notice that you put "Now, I'm talking Momentus at its idealized best." That reminds me of the adage about "it works great on paper, but in real life ...". Heh! Ain't that the truth.
First off, your experience is your experience, and if you want to hold on to that experience as a positive one, no one can begrudge you of that. Basically I was coming more from a 'generic' angle endeavoring to deal with the overall facts that effect everybody. It's kinda like that with TWI, where some of us have gotten good out of it, whereas others have gotten ziltch. But (as you well know) there are overriding facts about TWI, Wierwille and Co. that transcend our own personal experiences. Same with Momentus.
And some of the accounts from the supposedly 'disgruntled' participants go beyond, I think, the 'YMMV, this show's not for everyone' kind of description. And of course, I've read of some of the passing of the buck that was disguised as the 'take responsibility for yourself' facade by at least some of the instructors.
Maybe not a change of heart, but then again (if applicable) jail time would go a long way. Failing that, a total thrashing of their once high standing and reputation tends to help assuage the pain I imagine.
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HCW
That statement, IMO is precisely the crux of this matter.
I never said that. I don't think anyone who practices principles regarding taking personal responsiblity for one's ENTIRE life does either.
Your statement:
is a LOT closer to what I'm saying.
You MUST separate what YOU did from what THEY did, COMPLETELY. PERIOD.
i.e.: I went into the motorcoach HE attacked me.
I am not culpable in HIS attack. However, I DID place myself in his proximity. I'm not responsible for HIS perversion of MY intent which was OBVIOUSLY to VISIT with a minister.
I fully expected him to MINISTER, as is the true NATURE of a minister. (the connection withthe scorpion is only in the fact of, "this is what I do." I, as a scorpion have a natural propensity to sting. I as a minister have a natural propensity towards minstering.
A thief steals, a runner runs, a teacher, teaches, etc. AND a PREDATOR, preys.
Unless a victim can successfully SEPARATE their own actions from that of the attacker, THEIR own actions WILL torment them.
The torment is about facts, not guilt. The guilt storms down on the victim because the fact is UNDENIABLE. AFTER the incident has occurred, you cannot deny that YOU walked in of your own accord.
You can be freed by saying, YES! I walked in. BUT. That Predator preyed on me. He is responsible for the attack not me.
Your response blurred this all so crucial distinction Garth. Its not about them being able to help themselves. AFTER the occurrence of the incident. The attacker, what he can and cannot help is COMPLETELY irrelevant to you, the victim. You're dealing with YOUR ownership of the pain, Your ownership of the damage, your desire to be healed.
The attacker is irrelevant and separate to that process. His relevance ends with YES HE did this to me, HE is the CAUSE, the FAULT is HIS. My culpability ends at thhis point. AND MY culpability has NOTHING to do with what HE did TO me.
I followed the Way, IT was a cult. THEY decieved ME, I was honestly seeking God. I hate them for what they did, but I am beyond that NOW.
I will not follow any other cults. I will be MORE CAREFUL in my choices regarding who I follow and WHY I follow them.
I AM now more careful. I use what I've learned about cult behavior (THEIR cult behavior) to make a positive difference in the church I attend NOW.
I have NO problem sitting through any classes offered, I know MY culpability ends with my desire to learn, Theirs deals with their intent in what they are teaching.
I am less apt to accept ANYTHING anyone says, because YOU may be a scorpion in disguise JUST LIKE VPW WAS.
Catch my drift? I'm personally responsible for what happens TO me. I don't care what YOUR nature is, I will better protect myself (from "you") than I did in the past.
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excathedra
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GarthP2000
What happens then when you get caught by surprise? Or are forced into something?
Where is your supposed 'culpability' then?
And thank you for the 'scorpion in disguise' back handed remark.
;)--> At least with me, when I insult you, ... you'll know it. Because I'm more up front about it.
And yes, I catch your drift. And while it has valid points, there are still sizeable flaws. And I never read where Jesus Christ talked the same psychobabble. His holding people accountable was more, ... how do I say this, honest. As in he didn't hold people accountable when they weren't, on either/both sides of the situation. I even remember when he blamed the pharisees for "making them the twicefold child as yourselves", ie., their students. Yet look who he's pointing his finger at.
((smiles)) You speak of that term as tho' it was a lock solid clinical term. It is a term that has far more psycho-hype in it than you might realize. You might be surprised at what passes for a 'cult' more or less, and the ((cough)) 'standards' used to determine such. ... There are those who use that term in regards to Momentus, my friend. And with equally persuading arguments.
;)-->
Sorry chief, but, as per the "looks good on paper, but in real life ..." example, there are significant areas/examples where Momentus just doesn't live up to 'the promises on the green card' so to speak, or in their practices, wind up hurting more people more than they realize, ... or have the 'self-responsibility' to admit.
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excathedra
ps. i don't "blame" pass the buck to wierwille or anything that happened to me except to tell it like it was
and i'll be damned if i need momentus to prove that
haaaaaaaaa
give me a break
i get what happens in how one is raised and led down the stupid path
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HCW
I wasn't talking about YOU personally Garth.
I was speaking of a general "you" as in "people" or more specifically as "you" the victim, Not YOU, the Garth.
...could have just as easily been written as:
A victim must COMPLETELY separate what they did in relationship TO the attack from what the attacker did IN the attack. PERIOD.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think pretty much ANY time you get attacked, you're caught by surprise AND forced into something you don't want.
You're NOT catching my drift Garth. Can I say it ANY more clearly than this as follows?
NO Victim is in ANY way culpable for the ATTACK. The full extent of a victim's culpability ends with PROXIMITY.
Eg: I parked my car outside my home. A BURGULAR broke into it and stole my stereo. My culpability ends with my parking the car.
I am in NO WAY culpable for the BURGULAR breaking in and stealing my stereo.
I'm STILL confronted with a measure of irrational guilt, "If only I had parked somewhere else, he might not have hit my car."
To deal with the irrational, emotional connection, I take a good hard look at what I did.
In so doing I "discover" and acknowledge and finally BELIEVE... HEY! I had EVERY right to park where I did, Its MY car! It was in front of MY home! THE BURGULAR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HEDID TO ME. I feel bad because of what HE did, NOT what I did. I CAN feel OK with what I did, because what I did was FINE.
I'm not attacking YOU Garth.
Its not psychobabble to acknowledge that victims of sexual indescretion often feel responsible for the attack. My mother was attacked and viciously raped - - long before I was born. Her psyche was damaged.
She told me when I was a young teen of how for years SHE felt somehow responsible for the attack. She spoke of how she felt, "If only I had left five minutes later... maybe ten minutes earlier... If I had done something differently to put me in a different PLACE at s slightly different TIME, then I wouldn't feel as I do now. It wouldn't have happened to me if I wasn't THERE."
That's what my Mom told me. After she separated herself from her attackers actions, the process helped her to heal.
I have three beautiful daughters. I'm not about to have them go out into the world ill prepared for its realities because I hold onto worthless psycho-babble.
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CM
yeah that's what i thought too excathedra
it could be the reason
getting into a group session that forces issues with peer pressure and tactics is a dangerous game...
no insurance company would cover such an event knowing what they were going to insure.
now i've never done the momentus thing myself so i can't say much
confession is good for the soul as they say but to
force this issue with such high stakes....
dangerous for those involved
you better ****ing know what you are doing buddy
and you better SEE when to pull someone out
of the group..you are playing with fire
if it is the Lord's work you will know it and He can counter any attack on you that comes to the surface....and you can recognize it too-an attack-condemnation from anyone or anything you see in the mind or otherwise in a situation like this will be seen for what it is-it's a lie designed to throw you off of the love of God
this i HAVE seen this for real, in the mind, and in other ways, without anyone around
there is no condemnation or judgement-judgement as in God is going to hurt you-it's a lie
this is dooms day thinking
yeah....
God IS LOVE! Do NOT FORGET it!
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mj412
this is an interesting exchange, I never took momentous.
But I have been a victim. It took me decades to stop blaming my own self . the what if the why me etc, can and will follow through an entire life time.
I father NEVER recovered from my mothers death and no one really knew why.
if I had entered a program like momentous in my early years of dealing with a life long struggle to over come "being a victim" I would have probably gone nuts. or killed someone.
the brain can only acept so much reality, some more than others and it has alot to do with timing and what Eles is stressor your life to deal with the reality to "let go" and let God.
It is a nice thing to empower oneself to be a protected bunny in this world full of scorpians.
how powerful is That? well I could walk around my whole life in a shield from humanity and all its hurt and pain it offered.
I found it to be far to lonely.
people hurt people, it is what WE do. amoung other much more joyful and happy and loving things in life.
I aint going to spend my life building protections in my mind to safe guard against the next bad guy. I really do not think that bunny knew trusting is such a bad thing. Im sorry he died.
But living a life with the thought I had BETTER know what is a possible very evil NATURE in every person or beast or bad car or bee sting sounds a bit lonely and paranoid and unnormal and self CONDEMING if something does go wrong.
I believe we are all victims, that is why we need a God.
I do not want to play in an arena where it is but they didnt get me cause IM so darn sharp. or they got me but it doesnt hurt me oh no not me IM wise and good and LEARNED from it.
Screw that it hurts like hell. to be any kind of victim. learned or not. the best I can hope for is to be around to say to someone eles ouch I know that hurts how can I help. Does it really matter who the hell is responsible ? does it help anyone?
I do believe victims can rise above alot of pain.
but honestly I do not think the pain goes away, ever, it never gets understood, or explained away most of the time .. Pain is a human condition. it is where the great songs , poems, art, and expression of humainty at its richest live. being in pain means being a victim.
or we can all walk around with this invisable armour of God and pretend nothing bad or evil ever could or did or would happen in life and forget about living. How many lesson can one learn in life? Lord I must be on the high end spectrum of what the hell can go wrong now for all the lessons I have learned and Yes become victims of. No more scorpians because my friend the bunny taught us all that one as we still cry for his death. But how now do I seek a new friend bunny with the pain of losing him in such a frightening scary way? what did I do to be responsible for this? Im a victim. oh no maybe not Im a smart bunny I Learned not to allow those bugs on my back on the stream!!!!!
haha good for me . but I still miss him , how about that? better not be a victim, of life.
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excathedra
the rest of your post too
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excathedra
cm, don't you think the insurance co. would cover it if they realized it was a matter of personal responsibility / accountability ?
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CM
well...in the insurance businessthere is liability coverage
for instance in the window cleaning business-liability coverage covers everything but the window. if i broke a 10,000 dollar vase or something they would pay for it (minus the deductible)
the window is considered to be in your "care, custody and control" and is not covered under liability but can be covered with insurance IF they want to take this risk, and the premium is a whole lot higher-and i mean a lot higher
in this momentus thing it is people's lives that are in your care custody and control
make sense?
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CM
i was in the insurance business at one time
i know what it is
without the hold harmless agreement
they would have to go to Lloyds of London
or a similar insurance company that covers
high risks, like shuttle launches and things
of this nature where major catastrophies are
likely, and it will cost a lot of money
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CM
this personal responsibility / accountability thing is something to hide behind
i know what it means
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CM
it's not your fault excathedra
things happened.........
it's not your fault
it's not your fault
it's not your fault
things will be set right
it is finished will be seen
love always
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GrouchoMarxJr
About 7 years ago, I was approached by some former twiers, all of them connected with CES...their mission was to recruit me into the next Momentus training...they lauded it to the sky..."better than pfal...greatest thing since sliced bread...life changing...you just GOTTA do it"...that's all I heard from these folks...
Of course, my bull.... meter started redlining...so I went onto the internet and checked out everything I could find about Momentus...found out that it was an "offshoot" of LifeSpring which was an "offshoot" of the old EST training...had nothing to do with Christianity until the Momentus folks decided to paint a thin veneer of "bible words" on it and gave it a different name...
In all honesty, I listened to the pros and the cons...weighed it all out and decided..."Are you kidding me?...no chance I'm gonna take that thing"
I even attended the Momentus "public explanation" meeting...or whatever they called it...at the end of the meeting they asked if anyone had any questions...nobody did...until I started talking...I asked them about "LifeSpring", I asked them to explain the points made by the anti-Momentus folks from the internet...I was quickly "hushed up" and taken to a room alone. I guess they didn't want the other "newbies" to hear what I was saying...
The interesting part of this whole process, was that the folks from CES who were trying to recruit me, were as sweet and kind to me as you can imagine...until I informed them that I was not interested in taking Momentus...then they showed their true colors...One woman screamed at me...yes, she screamed..."WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE?"...they became very hostile towards me...of course, that only reinforced my decision to not take Momentus. In fact, when I got home that night, I called JAL on the phone to let him know what I thought of Momentus and his connection to it...we "discussed" the matter for about an hour on the phone. Neither of us had changed our opinion by the end of the conversation...
...and all those CES/Momentus folks who were singing the praises of Momentus?...within a year of taking it...EVERY ONE of their lives were in shambles. One guy in particular...he insisted on confessing to his wife that he had had an affair with another woman 5 years earlier...he told me that because of the Momentus training, he knew that he had to "get honest" with her about this...shortly after his confession, his wife left him and took all the kids with her...his life went into the toilet.
Let me see if I understand the Momentus way of thinking, from this example...The guy decided that to ease his own guilty conscience, he would burden his wife with this devasting information...that way, they would become closer because of the pure honesty of it all...
...I think maybe they should have thrown HIM out of the "lifeboat" first.
"Your life will change over the period of a weekend if you take our training"...Sorry, life just doesn't work that way.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Oh yeah...I found it rather interesting when they all "ganged up on me"...trying to convince me that I should share all my "secret sins" with them...I figured that they got suckered into sharing THEIR secret sins during the Momentus training and now they were looking for someone stupid enough to follow their lead...No thanks...one cult experience was enough for me.
All of you Christians out there...would Jesus make you sign a "hold harmless" clause before he started "training" you???
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GarthP2000
But...but...Groucho. Don't you know that *you* are responsible for allowing yourself to be in that situation to begin with. And it was *your* fault for asking too many probing questions.
;)-->
No doubt that guy who lost his wife and kids and whose life went into the toilet; they'd probably lay all the responsibility and culpability all on him too, if they ever met up with him again.
HCW, apparently these Momentus folks aren't as advertised, what with their song-and-dance about self-discovery, being biblically responsible and all. Remember, "They look good on paper, but in real life .....".
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CM
this is what they use
wtf happened to what Jesus did for us?
bunch of bs
and they don't know what confess means, sure it's a good idea to say i'm sorry to someone but don't be an idiot about it
that husband already confessed before talking to his wife. why hurt her and destroy what they have?
that husband confessed-recognized how wrong he was-the storms of self condemnation
yeah, it's a hard thing to face when you see your own wrongs
don't make 'em worse by acting out of an ungodly motivation
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TheEvan
You make a point I meant to at least imply, Garth.
"Forgiving" a person who has wronged you doesn't mean you've released them from consequences. If prosecution is in order, let it happen. I'm thinking especially of molesters. The molester will never be able to make full amends to those he's wronged. The victim needs to emotionally release the perp so as not to remain under that person's power. Meanwhile, by all means, I want the perp rotting in jail.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Reading Evan's posts on this subject, I realize that not everyone who takes Momentus ends up in a straight jacket...
...but can this "training" be considered Christian? I mean, we can all drop some acid and sing Jesus songs...that doesn't make doing LSD a Christian experience.
I do agree that it's not healthy to hold on to bitterness when someone wrongs you. Embracing bitterness only hurts the person who is bitter...apologizing to folks that you have hurt is a good thing...forgiving those who hurt you is also a good thing...but the Momentus folks that I had contact with were fanatical about it and ,IMHO, had slipped off the deep end...
...and I have yet to see anyone address Garth's question of...if personal accountability is so important, why the hold harmless clause?
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TheEvan
Well, i concluded it to be, for me, profoundly Christian. Not particularly in doctrine, but insofar as the goal is to get one's actions to line up with their mouth, a goal mostly unmet in christian circles.
On the other hand, I've never suggested to anybody that they go. On yet another hand, one or two people who liked what they saw & heard after I did it themselves went. with mixed results.
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excathedra
evan, it was probably a christian experience for you because you are such a good person
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TheEvan
Thank you for your confidence, exc, but I know what evil lurks in my sin-darkened heart.
But now that I'm thinking about it, I probably took it that way because it is my dominant worldview...I see things through my Christian lens, so to speak.
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