I was talking about the "god given authority" you claimed to have. I'm sure you didn't read that in a book, you got it in a "revelation" and it was a spirit.
I had a shower and dinner and can write a little before I go out to a poetry reading.
You invited me into a discussion and I had written to you: "I don't recognize the authority from which you speak."
You responded with: "and that authority is?"
Here's my answer:
Prior to 1998, my chosen authority was the set of canonical original scriptures. I had thought we were taught in the class to take these as our only rule for faith and practice, the Bible as originally given. This single focused set of writings served as a source outside myself, a center of reference from which I sought to learn. This was my authority, my unalterable standard for truth.
{{vocabulary check - synonyms for this context: authority, only rule for faith and practice, source outside myself, center of reference, standard}}
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..... take a breather, all those who hate long posts
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As time passed, though, I slowly realized that this source was not concrete, but abstract. I couldn't buy a set of the original Bible manuscripts, and even if I could I didn't have an authoritative translation for it. I knew translations of the same document could diverge in as many ways as there are translators and/or moods involved in the translation, and then working that translation into a readable copy including idioms and such was even more ambiguous.
I could get an approximate copy of the originals, but the degree of approximation bothered me more and more as I found out more and more about how sloppy the originals were handled. I had thought for years that the "critical Greek texts" were the most important ancient manuscripts, but eventually found out that they are actually very modern in origin, the oldest being the Stevens dating from 1550. I found out that the reason for the critical texts was to ferret out sloppy copies from the fragments. The originals were long gone and all we had were sloppy copies that tended to disagree with each other in many places. The critical Greek texts "solved" that problem, BUT the various critical tests ALSO varied from each other, as the footnotes of any interlinear testify.
I started seeing a huge problem, in that I could not get my hands on an actual copy of my only rule for faith and practice, the God-breathed original scriptures. I could only hold in my hand or place on a table a man-made, non-God-breathed approximation of it. This was a huge challenge to me. Is any of this sounding familiar yet?
I was in a quandary, in that in order to "research" my way back to more and more accurate copies (not even yet addressing the translation problem which is even bigger) of my authoritative standard I had to trust many different scholars, some of whom disagreed with each other on specifics and even on principles. Not only did I have to trust these scholars, but I had to trust myself in choosing them. I was getting farther and farther from a simple rule for faith and practice and my "authority" consisted of a very complex mix where I, myself, had to be involved to make crucial decisions. The whole idea of a source outside myself was out the window.
My authority was confused. My unalterable standard was changing every year little by little. I had no way of knowing how far I was from the ultimate cleaning up of these originals, still vexed with the translation problem which was even more, MUCH more challenging and ambiguous. I shuddered at the thought that I could arrive at the truth for any passage, but then keep on "researching" myself AWAY from it unknowingly.
I could see that the scholars kinda liked this whole problem because it gave them a chance to be authorities if they sold themselves well enough.
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Couple all this with the loss of many friends in the ministry meltdown(s) and I was starting to ask God for help just like I did in 1970, before I took the class. I could get no help from the leadership around me or across country because they were all totally locked onto rescuing their career paths and truth was a far off priority. One by one formerly trusted leaders showed up with no clothes with the crowd complimenting them for their stately attire.
Then I heard that one low level local leader, who had previously been one of the most respected leaders in San Diego, a grad from 1969, had suddenly showed up on the s-h-i-t list for loosing his mind and forsaking the newly officiallized bastion-of-truth, the Chris Geer class. He had gone back to PFAL. I knew by then not to trust any of the official proclamations of the SD leadership, so I contacted this man. He told me of Dr's last teaching and the fun he was having in coming back to PFAL. He showed me some "thus saith the Lord" statements of Dr's I had not been aware of along with the one I was aware of.
I came back to PFAL and learned some things deeper than I had learned before. I learned that Dr had gone through the exact same quandary I mentioned above, briefly describing it as "reading around the Word." I saw WHY he was ready to throw in the towel in 1942 and what it really was God had promised to help him with.
I learned that it was only Dr who was given the 1942 promise that God would guide him through the morass of opinions and scholarly sense knowledge opinions regarding the reconstruction of the originals AND the translation problem to boot! I learned that this project was basically finished in 1982, and totally finished in 1985. God had supplied an authority in writing for us.
My authority now is the written version of PFAL, the collaterals and Dr's magazine articles.
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I can place a copy of my ultimate authority on a table for all to see and for me to work with, to rightly divide. I can use all the tools Dr taugh us to use in the class for dealing with very difficult documents such as the KJV and the critical texts. The documents I use these tools on are plain and simple.
I don't think there are any posters here who were able to satisfy my challenge to place their tangible, concrete, outside-themselves, unalterable, authority or standard on a table where all can see it. Everyone failed in the tangible or unalterable or outside-themselves categories.
Jesus said the scriptures (physical written books of that time) are spirit and they are life!
Did he? You might want to read John 6:63, Mike. I'm not even a Christian but I do believe that I understand the Bible and Christian doctrine better than you do. For that matter, I think I understand Wierwille's teachings better than you do.
Jesus said the scriptures (physical written books of that time) are spirit and they are life!
Did he? You might want to read John 6:63, Mike. I'm not even a Christian but I do believe that I understand the Bible and Christian doctrine better than you do. For that matter, I think I understand Wierwille's teachings better than you do.
Long Gone,
Jesus ALSO said that he never spoke his own words but only those words his Father taught him. He said the scriptures cannot be broken, and that every jot and tittle would be fulfilled. For his first thirty years, having no spirit, he could ONLY get taught by physical books or scrolls.
Finding one verse to support your hunch, but not bringing in ALL the other verses on the same subject is error.
Jesus also said that the greatest commandment is to love God. If you check out where he got that from in Deut.6 you'll see that the context of that comandment prescribes lots of focus on the physical writings.
Jesus loved His Father so he spent lots of time reading physical material. This is what qualified him for direct communication with his Father when he finally got spirit.
For his first thirty years, having no spirit, he [Jesus] could ONLY get taught by physical books or scrolls.
If the Bible (or for that matter, your professed authority) is true, that’s not only an unwarranted assumption on your part, it’s almost certainly false. According to the Bible and Wierwille, how did “holy men of God†speak? At what age did John the Baptist have spirit? How about David? And, BTW, who was (or is) Jesus? According to both the Bible and Wierwille, among other things, he was and is the Word of God.
quote:
Finding one verse to support your hunch, but not bringing in ALL the other verses on the same subject is error.
You’re the one who made a claim based on that one verse. I just pointed out that it doesn’t support your claim.
quote:
Jesus also said that the greatest commandment is to love God. If you check out where he got that from in Deut.6 you'll see that the context of that comandment prescribes lots of focus on the physical writings.
What physical writings existed at that time? How about before that?
quote:
Jesus loved His Father so he spent lots of time reading physical material. This is what qualified him for direct communication with his Father when he finally got spirit.
It looks like you two want to start a trinity thread.
If a grad of PFAL wants to believe in the trinity, or Jesus being God, or Jesus not haveing to bust his foot to do what he did, then I'll briefly pray for their recovery. But I won't waste my time on them.
These issues were settled long ago, long before the ministry meltdown. If you two didn't get it, who Jesus Christ is then, you won't get it now. I will not even try to debate these issues with you. I won't waste my time.
I come here to deal with information that we grads who WERE paying some attention didn't get or that slipped by us. I deal with subtle issues that have leaked from our, the more diligent grads, memories.
There are tons of deluded denominational types to keep you company out there who will celebrate your doctrines with you.
I just don't have the time to debate stupid issues with you folks.
It looks like you two want to start a trinity thread.
I don't believe in a triune God and there wasn't anything trinitarian in what I said. I merely pointed out that what you said was contrary to both the Bible and Wierwille's teachings, which you hold to be scripture.
quote:
I come here to deal with information that we grads who WERE paying some attention didn't get or that slipped by us. I deal with subtle issues that have leaked from our, the more diligent grads, memories.
Apparently, at least concerning the points I addressed, some of the "subtle issues" that leaked from your memory were what the Bible says and what Wierwille taught.
quote:
I just don't have the time to debate stupid issues with you folks.
You raised them as significant issues. It appears that the only thing that suddenly made them "stupid" was your inability to support them from what you hold to be authoritative. Seems a bit like a kid losing a game, then calling it stupid.
Oh well. It was fun. Maybe we'll play again sometime.
I just don't have the time to debate stupid issues with you folks.
Mike, the ONLY thing you debate with us are stupid issues, because that's your agenda: a stupid thesis borne of idolatry, stupidity, ignorance; actually, a spectacular combination of all three.
The only way you can end a debate about stupid issues with us is to abandon your stupid, idolatrous thesis.
You seem to think that if you insult me enough you'll win some debate points, or make me feel bad enough to stop posting my message. I have a right, and it IS right to chose my battles wisely, not at the goading of others. When I don't want to waste time debating I bow out with no thoughts of loosing anything. Haven't you figured out that your insults or your theological labeling me as an idolater has no effect on me, and it makes you look like a sourpuss? Maybe you ARE one, but you ought to find a way to hide it. You're broadcasting to everyone what kind of treatment they can expect if they cross you.
***
Long Gone,
I've seen that many grads, though they shed the terminology of trinitarianism, they retain many of the notions behind Jesus being God. He was a man and he had to learn like one. He only had 5-senses to do it with until he was 30. Yes, John the Baptist was different. Long before Moses God's Word was written in the stars.
***
I'm not here to debate Jesus' nature. If anyone wants to know what that's all about they can ask HIM. I'm sure they'll get a chance and soon.
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CM
says who?
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Mike
I'm reading physical books... MASTERING them.
I was talking about the "god given authority" you claimed to have. I'm sure you didn't read that in a book, you got it in a "revelation" and it was a spirit.
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Mike
sez who?
I was talking about the biblical accounts of Jesus in the desert talking to the devil.
The devil is the conterfeit god.
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CM
look it up yourself even in pfal writings
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Mike
look WHAT up?
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CM
there's only one God
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Mike
You're yanking my chain!
There's only one TRUE God.
The devil is a false god, and he has power.
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CM
look that up twice
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Mike
please make sense.
That doesn't.
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CM
lol nope not yanking your chain
you have been taught wrong
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CM
g'nite
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Mike
I told you I'm not interested in your opinions.
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Mike
I'm going to end with this repetition:
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LG
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LG
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CM
There's just so many things in pfal that are lies and stop signs to knowing...
Like there's 2 gods. This is a fabrication not based on scripture that's for sure.
People can make things or people or themselves a god unto themselves. Like VPW's books or a computer.
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Mike
Long Gone,
Jesus ALSO said that he never spoke his own words but only those words his Father taught him. He said the scriptures cannot be broken, and that every jot and tittle would be fulfilled. For his first thirty years, having no spirit, he could ONLY get taught by physical books or scrolls.
Finding one verse to support your hunch, but not bringing in ALL the other verses on the same subject is error.
Jesus also said that the greatest commandment is to love God. If you check out where he got that from in Deut.6 you'll see that the context of that comandment prescribes lots of focus on the physical writings.
Jesus loved His Father so he spent lots of time reading physical material. This is what qualified him for direct communication with his Father when he finally got spirit.
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CM
see here, this is another fabrication...
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LG
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def59
Mike
C'mon dude. Jesus didn't "qualify" for anything. He was born as the Word. That's how knew the Word he was the culmination manifest in the flesh.
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Mike
It looks like you two want to start a trinity thread.
If a grad of PFAL wants to believe in the trinity, or Jesus being God, or Jesus not haveing to bust his foot to do what he did, then I'll briefly pray for their recovery. But I won't waste my time on them.
These issues were settled long ago, long before the ministry meltdown. If you two didn't get it, who Jesus Christ is then, you won't get it now. I will not even try to debate these issues with you. I won't waste my time.
I come here to deal with information that we grads who WERE paying some attention didn't get or that slipped by us. I deal with subtle issues that have leaked from our, the more diligent grads, memories.
There are tons of deluded denominational types to keep you company out there who will celebrate your doctrines with you.
I just don't have the time to debate stupid issues with you folks.
I'm just not in the least bit interested. Sorry.
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LG
Oh well. It was fun. Maybe we'll play again sometime.
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Raf
Mike, the ONLY thing you debate with us are stupid issues, because that's your agenda: a stupid thesis borne of idolatry, stupidity, ignorance; actually, a spectacular combination of all three.
The only way you can end a debate about stupid issues with us is to abandon your stupid, idolatrous thesis.
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Mike
Raf,
You seem to think that if you insult me enough you'll win some debate points, or make me feel bad enough to stop posting my message. I have a right, and it IS right to chose my battles wisely, not at the goading of others. When I don't want to waste time debating I bow out with no thoughts of loosing anything. Haven't you figured out that your insults or your theological labeling me as an idolater has no effect on me, and it makes you look like a sourpuss? Maybe you ARE one, but you ought to find a way to hide it. You're broadcasting to everyone what kind of treatment they can expect if they cross you.
***
Long Gone,
I've seen that many grads, though they shed the terminology of trinitarianism, they retain many of the notions behind Jesus being God. He was a man and he had to learn like one. He only had 5-senses to do it with until he was 30. Yes, John the Baptist was different. Long before Moses God's Word was written in the stars.
***
I'm not here to debate Jesus' nature. If anyone wants to know what that's all about they can ask HIM. I'm sure they'll get a chance and soon.
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