I know that in the early 70's many thought Dr taught by revelation, but no one seemed to get so explicit about it that they stated they were God-breathed JUST LIKE the original scriptures.
THAT idea weakened by the early 80's and many drifted into seeking other sources for light. I was one.
I had a shower and dinner and can write a little before I go out to a poetry reading.
You invited me into a discussion and I had written to you: "I don't recognize the authority from which you speak."
You responded with: "and that authority is?"
Here's my answer:
Prior to 1998, my chosen authority was the set of canonical original scriptures. I had thought we were taught in the class to take these as our only rule for faith and practice, the Bible as originally given. This single focused set of writings served as a source outside myself, a center of reference from which I sought to learn. This was my authority, my unalterable standard for truth.
{{vocabulary check - synonyms for this context: authority, only rule for faith and practice, source outside myself, center of reference, standard}}
.
.
.
..... take a breather, all those who hate long posts
.
.
.
As time passed, though, I slowly realized that this source was not concrete, but abstract. I couldn't buy a set of the original Bible manuscripts, and even if I could I didn't have an authoritative translation for it. I knew translations of the same document could diverge in as many ways as there are translators and/or moods involved in the translation, and then working that translation into a readable copy including idioms and such was even more ambiguous.
I could get an approximate copy of the originals, but the degree of approximation bothered me more and more as I found out more and more about how sloppy the originals were handled. I had thought for years that the "critical Greek texts" were the most important ancient manuscripts, but eventually found out that they are actually very modern in origin, the oldest being the Stevens dating from 1550. I found out that the reason for the critical texts was to ferret out sloppy copies from the fragments. The originals were long gone and all we had were sloppy copies that tended to disagree with each other in many places. The critical Greek texts "solved" that problem, BUT the various critical tests ALSO varied from each other, as the footnotes of any interlinear testify.
I started seeing a huge problem, in that I could not get my hands on an actual copy of my only rule for faith and practice, the God-breathed original scriptures. I could only hold in my hand or place on a table a man-made, non-God-breathed approximation of it. This was a huge challenge to me. Is any of this sounding familiar yet?
I was in a quandary, in that in order to "research" my way back to more and more accurate copies (not even yet addressing the translation problem which is even bigger) of my authoritative standard I had to trust many different scholars, some of whom disagreed with each other on specifics and even on principles. Not only did I have to trust these scholars, but I had to trust myself in choosing them. I was getting farther and farther from a simple rule for faith and practice and my "authority" consisted of a very complex mix where I, myself, had to be involved to make crucial decisions. The whole idea of a source outside myself was out the window.
My authority was confused. My unalterable standard was changing every year little by little. I had no way of knowing how far I was from the ultimate cleaning up of these originals, still vexed with the translation problem which was even more, MUCH more challenging and ambiguous. I shuddered at the thought that I could arrive at the truth for any passage, but then keep on "researching" myself AWAY from it unknowingly.
I could see that the scholars kinda liked this whole problem because it gave them a chance to be authorities if they sold themselves well enough.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Couple all this with the loss of many friends in the ministry meltdown(s) and I was starting to ask God for help just like I did in 1970, before I took the class. I could get no help from the leadership around me or across country because they were all totally locked onto rescuing their career paths and truth was a far off priority. One by one formerly trusted leaders showed up with no clothes with the crowd complimenting them for their stately attire.
Then I heard that one low level local leader, who had previously been one of the most respected leaders in San Diego, a grad from 1969, had suddenly showed up on the s-h-i-t list for loosing his mind and forsaking the newly officiallized bastion-of-truth, the Chris Geer class. He had gone back to PFAL. I knew by then not to trust any of the official proclamations of the SD leadership, so I contacted this man. He told me of Dr's last teaching and the fun he was having in coming back to PFAL. He showed me some "thus saith the Lord" statements of Dr's I had not been aware of along with the one I was aware of.
I came back to PFAL and learned some things deeper than I had learned before. I learned that Dr had gone through the exact same quandary I mentioned above, briefly describing it as "reading around the Word." I saw WHY he was ready to throw in the towel in 1942 and what it really was God had promised to help him with.
I learned that it was only Dr who was given the 1942 promise that God would guide him through the morass of opinions and scholarly sense knowledge opinions regarding the reconstruction of the originals AND the translation problem to boot! I learned that this project was basically finished in 1982, and totally finished in 1985. God had supplied an authority in writing for us.
My authority now is the written version of PFAL, the collaterals and Dr's magazine articles.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I can place a copy of my ultimate authority on a table for all to see and for me to work with, to rightly divide. I can use all the tools Dr taugh us to use in the class for dealing with very difficult documents such as the KJV and the critical texts. The documents I use these tools on are plain and simple.
I don't think there are any posters here who were able to satisfy my challenge to place their tangible, concrete, outside-themselves, unalterable, authority or standard on a table where all can see it. Everyone failed in the tangible or unalterable or outside-themselves categories.
So you're claiming to have a direct link, just like Dr did.
You'll have to get on that line now, at the end, after all the others who claim to have that kind of revelation.
Dr earned my respect, and he turned out a load of material to back up his claim. The mind of Christ is in those books. Whoever masters them can have Christ formed within. THAT'S where Christ is!
I'm not at all interested in your claim. My mind is closed tight like a bank vault and YOU are not getting in. Maybe you can convince some of those others in that line that you got the real McCoy, but they will be trying to convince you too. Good luck.
In my long post I wrote: "I could see that the scholars kinda liked this whole problem because it gave them a chance to be authorities if they sold themselves well enough."
Mystics also like this same problem, that whole line of them ahead of you, because it gives them a chance to claim a direct link. They sometimes use poetry or KJV style English to sell themselves.
Dr earned my respect, and he turned out a load of material to back up his claim. The mind of Christ is in those books. Whoever masters them can have Christ formed within. THAT'S where Christ is!
This is a lie and to live it is building your house on sand. Books only serve as an aid and are not Christ.
Christ is within as the scriptures state. And can be born without books. Yes Born not grow. He's there fully grown. It is us that have to grow up to see it. The mind of Christ within.
The only way to focus on the RIGHT spirit (many claim to be Christ) is to have a physical written standard to measure them by. This is how Jesus discerned that the visions in the desert were counterfeit.
After much practice with the physical standard (It Is Written) then, and ONLY then, can someone spot the counterfeits by spiritual discernment.
Key #4 in the AC's "16 Keys to waling in the Spirit" is "Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know."
Keep up the hooky pook, CM, and I can keep my commercials rolling.
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Mike
I know that in the early 70's many thought Dr taught by revelation, but no one seemed to get so explicit about it that they stated they were God-breathed JUST LIKE the original scriptures.
THAT idea weakened by the early 80's and many drifted into seeking other sources for light. I was one.
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CM
gotta go do some work now-will check with you later
love always cuz he is love
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Mike
Ok
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Mike
CM,
I had a shower and dinner and can write a little before I go out to a poetry reading.
You invited me into a discussion and I had written to you: "I don't recognize the authority from which you speak."
You responded with: "and that authority is?"
Here's my answer:
Prior to 1998, my chosen authority was the set of canonical original scriptures. I had thought we were taught in the class to take these as our only rule for faith and practice, the Bible as originally given. This single focused set of writings served as a source outside myself, a center of reference from which I sought to learn. This was my authority, my unalterable standard for truth.
{{vocabulary check - synonyms for this context: authority, only rule for faith and practice, source outside myself, center of reference, standard}}
.
.
.
..... take a breather, all those who hate long posts
.
.
.
As time passed, though, I slowly realized that this source was not concrete, but abstract. I couldn't buy a set of the original Bible manuscripts, and even if I could I didn't have an authoritative translation for it. I knew translations of the same document could diverge in as many ways as there are translators and/or moods involved in the translation, and then working that translation into a readable copy including idioms and such was even more ambiguous.
I could get an approximate copy of the originals, but the degree of approximation bothered me more and more as I found out more and more about how sloppy the originals were handled. I had thought for years that the "critical Greek texts" were the most important ancient manuscripts, but eventually found out that they are actually very modern in origin, the oldest being the Stevens dating from 1550. I found out that the reason for the critical texts was to ferret out sloppy copies from the fragments. The originals were long gone and all we had were sloppy copies that tended to disagree with each other in many places. The critical Greek texts "solved" that problem, BUT the various critical tests ALSO varied from each other, as the footnotes of any interlinear testify.
I started seeing a huge problem, in that I could not get my hands on an actual copy of my only rule for faith and practice, the God-breathed original scriptures. I could only hold in my hand or place on a table a man-made, non-God-breathed approximation of it. This was a huge challenge to me. Is any of this sounding familiar yet?
I was in a quandary, in that in order to "research" my way back to more and more accurate copies (not even yet addressing the translation problem which is even bigger) of my authoritative standard I had to trust many different scholars, some of whom disagreed with each other on specifics and even on principles. Not only did I have to trust these scholars, but I had to trust myself in choosing them. I was getting farther and farther from a simple rule for faith and practice and my "authority" consisted of a very complex mix where I, myself, had to be involved to make crucial decisions. The whole idea of a source outside myself was out the window.
My authority was confused. My unalterable standard was changing every year little by little. I had no way of knowing how far I was from the ultimate cleaning up of these originals, still vexed with the translation problem which was even more, MUCH more challenging and ambiguous. I shuddered at the thought that I could arrive at the truth for any passage, but then keep on "researching" myself AWAY from it unknowingly.
I could see that the scholars kinda liked this whole problem because it gave them a chance to be authorities if they sold themselves well enough.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Couple all this with the loss of many friends in the ministry meltdown(s) and I was starting to ask God for help just like I did in 1970, before I took the class. I could get no help from the leadership around me or across country because they were all totally locked onto rescuing their career paths and truth was a far off priority. One by one formerly trusted leaders showed up with no clothes with the crowd complimenting them for their stately attire.
Then I heard that one low level local leader, who had previously been one of the most respected leaders in San Diego, a grad from 1969, had suddenly showed up on the s-h-i-t list for loosing his mind and forsaking the newly officiallized bastion-of-truth, the Chris Geer class. He had gone back to PFAL. I knew by then not to trust any of the official proclamations of the SD leadership, so I contacted this man. He told me of Dr's last teaching and the fun he was having in coming back to PFAL. He showed me some "thus saith the Lord" statements of Dr's I had not been aware of along with the one I was aware of.
I came back to PFAL and learned some things deeper than I had learned before. I learned that Dr had gone through the exact same quandary I mentioned above, briefly describing it as "reading around the Word." I saw WHY he was ready to throw in the towel in 1942 and what it really was God had promised to help him with.
I learned that it was only Dr who was given the 1942 promise that God would guide him through the morass of opinions and scholarly sense knowledge opinions regarding the reconstruction of the originals AND the translation problem to boot! I learned that this project was basically finished in 1982, and totally finished in 1985. God had supplied an authority in writing for us.
My authority now is the written version of PFAL, the collaterals and Dr's magazine articles.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I can place a copy of my ultimate authority on a table for all to see and for me to work with, to rightly divide. I can use all the tools Dr taugh us to use in the class for dealing with very difficult documents such as the KJV and the critical texts. The documents I use these tools on are plain and simple.
I don't think there are any posters here who were able to satisfy my challenge to place their tangible, concrete, outside-themselves, unalterable, authority or standard on a table where all can see it. Everyone failed in the tangible or unalterable or outside-themselves categories.
So, CM, what's your authority?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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CM
I am a book
an epistle of the heart
my authority is God-given
and the right to abuse it or use it wisely
what God has wrought in my soul
no man can take away
a "tangible, concrete, outside-themselves, unalterable, authority or standard" is not what I want or need.
this outside yourself teaching by VPW is anti-Christ
where is Christ, Mike?
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Mike
CM,
So you're claiming to have a direct link, just like Dr did.
You'll have to get on that line now, at the end, after all the others who claim to have that kind of revelation.
Dr earned my respect, and he turned out a load of material to back up his claim. The mind of Christ is in those books. Whoever masters them can have Christ formed within. THAT'S where Christ is!
I'm not at all interested in your claim. My mind is closed tight like a bank vault and YOU are not getting in. Maybe you can convince some of those others in that line that you got the real McCoy, but they will be trying to convince you too. Good luck.
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Mike
CM,
...but thank you for giving me such a great opportunity to broadcast my commercial.
:D-->
We can turn this hijacked thread back over to Xena now. I'm done.
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Mike
P.S.
In my long post I wrote: "I could see that the scholars kinda liked this whole problem because it gave them a chance to be authorities if they sold themselves well enough."
Mystics also like this same problem, that whole line of them ahead of you, because it gives them a chance to claim a direct link. They sometimes use poetry or KJV style English to sell themselves.
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Share on other sites
CM
This is a lie and to live it is building your house on sand. Books only serve as an aid and are not Christ.
Christ is within as the scriptures state. And can be born without books. Yes Born not grow. He's there fully grown. It is us that have to grow up to see it. The mind of Christ within.
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Mike
The only way to focus on the RIGHT spirit (many claim to be Christ) is to have a physical written standard to measure them by. This is how Jesus discerned that the visions in the desert were counterfeit.
After much practice with the physical standard (It Is Written) then, and ONLY then, can someone spot the counterfeits by spiritual discernment.
Key #4 in the AC's "16 Keys to waling in the Spirit" is "Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know."
Keep up the hooky pook, CM, and I can keep my commercials rolling.
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Mike
Jesus said the scriptures (physical written books of that time) are spirit and they are life!
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CM
i have not made that claim
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CM
Christ showed Jesus this...
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Mike
It's the spirits that make that claim.
I wrote: "The only way to focus on the RIGHT spirit (many claim to be Christ)..."
If you think you have a direct link, the spirit that assures you of that claims to be Christ... or God... or the authority.
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CM
practice with the spiritual would be a better idea
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CM
i never said any such thing
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Mike
In the desert, Jesus drew upon his near 30 years of studying physical books (scrolls) to see that the visions there were counterfeit.
Jesus had a physical standard to discern truth from error.
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Mike
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CM
and when you see them let me know and then we can talk about what does not need to be taught
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Mike
This posting on top of each other is confusing. I'm going to back off and let yo say your thing.
Tomorrow is another day.
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CM
where do you get that idea?
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CM
the visions were not counterfeit
you better hang on to your sanity
when this happens to you
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Mike
The devil quoted scriptures, but he wrongly divided them. That's what tipped off his true colors.
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Mike
the visions were FROM a counterfeit source.
GADS MAN! This is a stupid way to communicate. We're all out of sequence due to posting on top of each other.
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