I don't know if it's fair to compare my situation with others.
Personally, I do. I think it is more than a fair assessment to make.. other people have the same feelings as you after all.. and people are really not so different as some tend to think.
What I'm saying is, take what YOU experienced. Add the other factors listed, and you may have a rough approximation of the devastation others felt. Or the loss that was sustained.
Go from hopelessness to despair. And some survived in spite of TWI's best efforts..
No, I do not label all the evil in my life as directly due to TWI, only about sixty five to seventy percent. Others here less, some MORE.
probably won`t ever catch compassion or understanding either.
Rascal, pot calling the kettle black.
I will say this: I do think it's pretty difficult for the both of us to express compassion and understanding with each other, since we are so far apart in our beliefs.
Mr. Hamm, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt...I only know that it was the toughest thing that I ever had to force myself to do...
I tried to withdraw from the program....like the people you mentioned....I was brought before the lc for a *talk*
I tried to follow through with what God required of me as a faithfull servant....
I failed once and was brought back for a more intense talking to...made thorouhly aware of the consequences of breaking a vow to God...thtas when the big guns were brought out.
I submitted and allowed that which I found shamefull and abhorrant...not because *I* wanted to, not because ...*I* wanted to be in the corpes anymore....but because twi made damn sure I believed that to do otherwise would result in dire consequences...
See this isn`t a *rascal`s mad because....* thread...almost every one of us had to make heartbreaking choices like this because of the pressures applied by twi ... many much worse than mine....
It is about the weapon of God and scriptures being used to enforce compliance.
Free will...I agree. BUT...Free will that was heavily influenced by fear motivation, mis-information, shame based teachings, we against them mentality and I can go on.
Your free will to continue to support TWI ...has it not been influenced byTWI? Or is your sence of self so spiritually based that you know inatly that TWI is the Word of God incarnete via an organization.
You know it makes me think of an historical account the world was for ever enfluenced and changed by. A little country in Eastern Europe that through mis-information, fear motivation and arrogance decided to terminate Jews, Christians etc... and tried to conquer the world. The whole nation was behind the belief that Aryains(?) are the superior race. My God who taught them such a thing? Why would a nation surcum to taht belief. I guess it was something they just new and made a deliberet choose (freedom of will) to act on it ...without any influence whatsoever from an "outside reference or source".
Granted "freedom of will" is a vital element in taking ownership of ones action. But the ability to make good informed decisions rest on the info recieved and pondered. So that a persons "freedom of will" expression is not harmful to self or otheres. When that info is misrepresented (the Bible) and used as a means to manipulate and control... under the aura of godliness or Gods will, who is to blame for actions taken? (Knowing full well that we are not all knowing and need a "reference point for truth" outside of ourselves)
I believe that the messaenger should shoulder the majority of the reponcibility especially when a public trust has been given and violated.
After all I was very young, 19 years old, my parents still around and so they were willing to take me back, for a time.
Imagine if they were NOT.
Imagine if "they" called your parents, your former twig friends, and you were labelled as a possessed faggot or something.. repugnant as that may sound, those are the very words I heard used of people that abandoned the program..
Imagine the first meeting with your former "friends" in town.. won't shake your hand, cold as ICE...
They KNOW where you are, and they're not gonna visit you for love or money..
I'm sorry for the emotional hell you must of went through. No human being has the right to infridge there beliefs in such personal matters. TWI knew no boundries and respected none.
Mr. Hamm, those were the prices people paid for non conformance....
We knew it...we knew the price to be paid for not obeying....
Those who chose to succumb to the threat...were lauded as the *good* douloses...made to feel special for a while...all the time harboring the secret shame of what one did to recieve the aproval of God, and effusive praise of our leaders, the hearty pats on the back like we had passed some sort of temptation of satan test.
It`s like a cold sickness gnawing in the pit of your stomache.
Yeah thanks Mr. Hamm, you work through it...it is not so bad for me...as I was able to have children later....two of my friends couldn`t due to damage sustained.
How`s that for being blessed (as the mog promised they would be) for obeying leadership?...but hey by God, they honored their vow`s eh? They had the privelige of continuing training...as per God`s will.
I know a family who kicked out their teenager daughter against their own wishes, because they were threatened with m&a if they didn`t.
'
They had three younger children and knew that to be m&a would mean to be cut off from the body of christ and protection of God.....that the younger three would be placed in deadly peril.
The gun held to their head to make them do other than that which they wished, was God and scriptures...again
Judging from how well they had the schpeil and scriptures down, and their willingness to pay for the procedure....I have to think that it was more common than we`d like to think:-(
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oldiesman
I don't know if it's fair to compare my situation with others.
After all I was very young, 19 years old, my parents still around and so they were willing to take me back, for a time.
I do admit that was a big plus.
However Dad booted my lazy a$$ out after a few months.
So after that I was essentially on my own anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I know by experience that these experiences were highly devastating.
But even I too have been through it maybe that's why I can speak with some certainty about not blaming twi all the time.
I really don't fully know what the penchant mindset against everything twi is about other than I hope I never catch it.
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rascal
probably won`t ever catch compassion or understanding either.
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bliss
I HAVE had a GUN TO MY HEAD!!! FOR REAL.
Sure I had a choice.
Thankfully the results of my choice, lead me to still be here today. (and what that choice was is not what you think)
I had no physical gun to my head keeping me in the Vey,
but, having gone through both real and figurative guns,
(the later being fear, manipulation, coersion, guilt...oh just pick your poison),
my reactions and feelings were quite similar.
ummm...Chilling.
It's uncanny.
Never thought about it until now. The only difference is I didn't have a sudden panic of fear, just a long continuous drip..............
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Ham
Personally, I do. I think it is more than a fair assessment to make.. other people have the same feelings as you after all.. and people are really not so different as some tend to think.
What I'm saying is, take what YOU experienced. Add the other factors listed, and you may have a rough approximation of the devastation others felt. Or the loss that was sustained.
Go from hopelessness to despair. And some survived in spite of TWI's best efforts..
No, I do not label all the evil in my life as directly due to TWI, only about sixty five to seventy percent. Others here less, some MORE.
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oldiesman
I will say this: I do think it's pretty difficult for the both of us to express compassion and understanding with each other, since we are so far apart in our beliefs.
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Ham
Some took those devastations "on the road", no home to go back to.
Some left WITHOUT WIFE/HUSBAND or FAMILY.
You're nowhere NEAR the mark to understand what this did to some- cost at least one guy his life.
From my experiences, I can only partially identify with what the guy went through.
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rascal
Mr. Hamm, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt...I only know that it was the toughest thing that I ever had to force myself to do...
I tried to withdraw from the program....like the people you mentioned....I was brought before the lc for a *talk*
I tried to follow through with what God required of me as a faithfull servant....
I failed once and was brought back for a more intense talking to...made thorouhly aware of the consequences of breaking a vow to God...thtas when the big guns were brought out.
I submitted and allowed that which I found shamefull and abhorrant...not because *I* wanted to, not because ...*I* wanted to be in the corpes anymore....but because twi made damn sure I believed that to do otherwise would result in dire consequences...
See this isn`t a *rascal`s mad because....* thread...almost every one of us had to make heartbreaking choices like this because of the pressures applied by twi ... many much worse than mine....
It is about the weapon of God and scriptures being used to enforce compliance.
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bliss
And.....I just got back from the most
heartfelt, warm, "compassionate", touching,
beautiful bible study, (not way affiliated),
that I have , I think ever....if not then in a longgggggggggggggggggggg time....
I can't remember the last time I felt such LOVE for God and from God in a long time....
no guns involved
;)-->
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imbus
Oldies again we meet.
Free will...I agree. BUT...Free will that was heavily influenced by fear motivation, mis-information, shame based teachings, we against them mentality and I can go on.
Your free will to continue to support TWI ...has it not been influenced byTWI? Or is your sence of self so spiritually based that you know inatly that TWI is the Word of God incarnete via an organization.
You know it makes me think of an historical account the world was for ever enfluenced and changed by. A little country in Eastern Europe that through mis-information, fear motivation and arrogance decided to terminate Jews, Christians etc... and tried to conquer the world. The whole nation was behind the belief that Aryains(?) are the superior race. My God who taught them such a thing? Why would a nation surcum to taht belief. I guess it was something they just new and made a deliberet choose (freedom of will) to act on it ...without any influence whatsoever from an "outside reference or source".
Granted "freedom of will" is a vital element in taking ownership of ones action. But the ability to make good informed decisions rest on the info recieved and pondered. So that a persons "freedom of will" expression is not harmful to self or otheres. When that info is misrepresented (the Bible) and used as a means to manipulate and control... under the aura of godliness or Gods will, who is to blame for actions taken? (Knowing full well that we are not all knowing and need a "reference point for truth" outside of ourselves)
I believe that the messaenger should shoulder the majority of the reponcibility especially when a public trust has been given and violated.
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Ham
Imagine if they were NOT.
Imagine if "they" called your parents, your former twig friends, and you were labelled as a possessed faggot or something.. repugnant as that may sound, those are the very words I heard used of people that abandoned the program..
Imagine the first meeting with your former "friends" in town.. won't shake your hand, cold as ICE...
They KNOW where you are, and they're not gonna visit you for love or money..
You're sleeping in your car, if you have one.
Some folks ended up in the looney bin..
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Ham
Even WHOLE FAMILIES were sent out with little more than five-hundred dollars, a Ryder rental truck, and a hearty "see ya, don't wanna be ya"..
I have a LOT of evil to lay at the feet of TWI.
If the shoe fits, well, perhaps we should stick it on em and see how well it fits.
I think TWI's shoes are a lot like poor lil Dorothy's red slippers in the Wizard of Oz..
Can't get em off.
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imbus
Rascal,
I'm sorry for the emotional hell you must of went through. No human being has the right to infridge there beliefs in such personal matters. TWI knew no boundries and respected none.
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rascal
Mr. Hamm, those were the prices people paid for non conformance....
We knew it...we knew the price to be paid for not obeying....
Those who chose to succumb to the threat...were lauded as the *good* douloses...made to feel special for a while...all the time harboring the secret shame of what one did to recieve the aproval of God, and effusive praise of our leaders, the hearty pats on the back like we had passed some sort of temptation of satan test.
It`s like a cold sickness gnawing in the pit of your stomache.
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oldiesman
Those of you who believe twi was evil from the start, thru and thru:
then those who were booted out got a good deal, didn't they?
they were removed from the evil.
So what are you continuously complaining about?
Rejoice they were released from Satan
twi released them from twi bondage...
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rascal
Thanks Imbus... it went way beyond a freedom of choice issue.
Mr. Hamm.. I know several stories as bad and some quite a bit worse for non compliance with leadership.
But in every case I am aware of...believers were warned ahead of time to have nothing to do with the person who hadn`t obeyed...
That was a death sentance in many of our minds when we were involved in twi.
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Ham
I hope things are better, today..
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rascal
Complaining? I don`t think what has been shared here would be considered to be in the *complaining* category.
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Ham
Ah yesss.. but remember, our greatest temptation is between "good and BEST"
The BEST thing would be for the organization to abandon archaic, devilish practices, and do "the best" for a change.
Perhaps that is only asking too much..
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rascal
Yeah thanks Mr. Hamm, you work through it...it is not so bad for me...as I was able to have children later....two of my friends couldn`t due to damage sustained.
How`s that for being blessed (as the mog promised they would be) for obeying leadership?...but hey by God, they honored their vow`s eh? They had the privelige of continuing training...as per God`s will.
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Ham
Honestly, I can't claim this. I can only attest to the stinking evil I saw in the place from about 1975 onward.
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Ham
How sad. And how many MORE were there, we never heard about, never knew about..
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rascal
As I have posted before....
I know a family who kicked out their teenager daughter against their own wishes, because they were threatened with m&a if they didn`t.
'
They had three younger children and knew that to be m&a would mean to be cut off from the body of christ and protection of God.....that the younger three would be placed in deadly peril.
The gun held to their head to make them do other than that which they wished, was God and scriptures...again
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rascal
Judging from how well they had the schpeil and scriptures down, and their willingness to pay for the procedure....I have to think that it was more common than we`d like to think:-(
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Ham
Paid for it??
So now I see another little path MY ABS took..
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