As a side note...it`s really strange how a fetus was viewed as *not alive* because it hadn`t had it`s *first breath* while CANCER on the other hand, was viewed as having a *life of it`s own* and therefor viewed as evil....
One instance, a corps couple were dropped for: an accidental pregnancy. It was UGLY.. apparently she would not get an abortion or anything.
...
So they desperately tried to continue with the corps in their existing circumstance.. without having their "cumberance" surgically removed..
I don't understand what you mean here.
Now THAT I agree with. You don't understand.
quote:
I see this as they were dropped because the woman chose to bring the baby to term, and having a baby was not allowed in their circumstances, so therefore they disqualified themselves from their corps commitment.
No, you see them as disobeying leadership, and so they were SCUM. Ham talked about the idea
of them leaving the program and returning later, or at least facing an "honorable
discharge" rather than being made PARIAHS when they returned to their local fellowship.
quote:
But you said they tried to continue under their existing circumstance?
How could they since the woman decided to have the baby and therefore they were dropped...
See, this level of control over people's lives is the problem.
quote:
I guess I'm not understanding the story...
And you won't if we wrote it out in 100 pages, with photos, recaps and summaries.
Just accept that what people experienced is NOTHING like what you saw,
See, this level of control over people's lives is the problem.
Then they shouldn't have volunteered. They didn't have to. They could have just been Joe Believers.
But the corps was a program that had rules.
You had to abide by those rules to remain...all of us did.
Therefore if you signed up for the Corps, you were placing your life under those rules.
Nobody to blame but yourself if you didn't follow the rules or had misgivings later on.
Yeah BM was meant to be insulting, did you not read "oldiesboy" or is it just me you are reproving cause you get off on dissecting most everything I write?
But it seems so obvious to me that folks made decisions in their lives and now some regret those decisions and boldly blame twi, as if it's always twi's fault.
Not allowed to reapply to the Corps at a future date?
Under NO circumstances.
quote:
Many were
Not from around here, or my old state, for that matter..
quote:
Why were others treatment different so that they got to twig and reapplied at a later date?
What "others"? The treatment these poor folks got was standard operating procedure. The only reason I heard about it was they were from an area a hundred or so miles away, and der vey did not detect any kind of possible connection between me and them. Others simply dissappeared into the night, God only knows where..
Oh yes. One of the bigwigs kids was pregnant, I think. Mysteriously seemed to pass through the training with flying colors..
quote:
That would open a can of worms so the choices they apparent had was abort the fetus and continue in the program, or leave the program.
Interesting choice of words. I think der vey's actions gave us a rotten can of worms labelled beans. Now we find ourselves YEARS later finally dealing with this. Can of worms, yes. But for der vey.
quote:
quote:
They lost EVERYTHING. No friends, only the wife had some family that I can remember, whom she had previously alienated because of der vey.
If they went in the Corps, they probably had not many material possessions to begin with.
True. Not many material possessions. But look at what they really lost- and I would rate it as being more devastating than losing all of your possessions in a house fire:
1. "Friends" back in the good old home town. They think you are "possessed".
2. Your good name. Yes, you're "possessed".
You're lower than the low. The unsalted, the uncommitted..
3. Any kind of expectation for some kind of support from said individuals. They've turned your back on you.
4. Their sanity- at least for some time. Can't convince me people take this stuff in stride like a leisure stroll in the park.
Oh yes, you could count material losses- they did abandon all that to go in the damned program to begin with.
Ever stop to think that YOU were about the only exception? When they put your "sorry" rear end out to the curb, you had some place to go. And from what I read about YOUR experience, it was STILL devastating. You would have done ANYTHING to stay there, practically speaking.
You had at least one luxury that MOST others did not.
Oldies the weapon utilized was the threatened consequences to be endured if we departed from twi, or for non compliance with leaders orders, or not finishing a program.
The threats were issued as edicts from God....far more intimidating for me than any physical harm.
Mr.Hamm, I am so sorry for what that couple endured for making the decision to have that baby instead of destroy it at leaderships demand........it is unconscionable what twi put them through for making that choice....
BUT...hear this...as devistating as the ministry made their lives....as harshly as they were punished.....just as SOON as that baby was born...trust me, that family knew that they made the right decision...and further more...every day that they have that child to love and nurture, they have it confirmed again and again, day after day.....that they made the right choice.
See, this level of control over people's lives is the problem.
Then they shouldn't have volunteered. They didn't have to. They could have just been Joe Believers.
But the corps was a program that had rules.
So many of the IMPORTANT rules-like EVER step out of line and your life is OVER-
were SECRET rules, never written or spoken to candidates who PAID THRU THE NOSE to be used
as manual labour and ordered around like chattel.
quote:
You had to abide by those rules to remain...all of us did.
If the rules were few, reasonable, public, and clear, then it would be their faults.
quote:
Therefore if you signed up for the Corps, you were placing your life under those rules.
The important rules were never stated.
quote:
Nobody to blame but yourself if you didn't follow the rules or had misgivings later on.
Again, if there were reasonable levels of rules, and open communication of them,
THEN maybe I'd agree with you.
quote:
Yeah BM was meant to be insulting, did you not read "oldiesboy" or is it just me you are reproving cause you get off on dissecting most everything I write?
Admittedly, a lot of little insults here and there I don't notice. You might consider
ignoring the little ones and letting them pass. I've done that when a few of them were
directed at me. I wasn't sure if "oldiesboy" should be considered an insult. If you weren't
so eager to slap others, I might be a lot quicker to defend you, frankly.
Further,
I think there's benefit in dissecting some of the things you write because even YOU are
unaware of the subtexts in them. If there was no subtext, doing so would be rather silly.
I don't actually derive sexual pleasure from them as you suggested.
quote:
You're so good at that, WordWolf.
One needs do a thorough job when dealing with someone who hides insults, misdirections and
sexual innuendo in his posts. Therefore, for acknowledging my skill in exposing them, I
thank you for the compliment.
Now then, we were discussing the unwritten rules which were imposed on us, and were used as
a bludgeon to force conformity to the rules. Sure, we could have walked away- if we were
willing to forsake ALL friends and family (outsiders, we ALREADY avoided on orders
previously, insiders would now be told we were pariahs), and step outside the protection,
favour and will of God, setting ourselves up for imminent destruction-
and the destruction of our loved ones, as later became the doctrine.
Now, it was possible to ignore the suffering of others THEN by selective vision,
rewrite it by selective memory, or ignore the unjust treatment you or yours faced thru
rationalization. That is NOT, however, intellectually honest and most of us prefer to
I would have gone to extraordinary efforts to stay. I simply saw, at the price they were asking, I simply could not afford the product. I could IN NO WAY come up with the down payment.
At the time, it did not make any difference whether or not they were what they claimed to be. No difference-
Now, I step back and look at what they were selling. Ptooie.
They didn't sell us the "good stuff", they had us smoking buffalo chips..
We were decieved into believing that what twi required of us was GOD`S will.
Our options were always seemed to be between what we wanted and that which God required (as presented by twi)....to dissapoint God meant to endure destruction and the death of yourself and or loved ones.
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rascal
Thanks (((Mr. Hamm))).... we ALL have reason to feel deeply betrayed ...
May God forgive me for what I did in his name ....for I cannot imagine that He is pleased that in order to honor my vow, I destroyed a baby.......
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oldiesman
just conveying the experiences as I saw them, BM.
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rascal
As a side note...it`s really strange how a fetus was viewed as *not alive* because it hadn`t had it`s *first breath* while CANCER on the other hand, was viewed as having a *life of it`s own* and therefor viewed as evil....
Fetus not alive, cancer alive...go figure
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CM
don't worry rascal
there's more blessings then you can count
coming to you, God always forgives
forgiveness will be so secondary
after seeing what he has to reveal
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WordWolf
No, you see them as disobeying leadership, and so they were SCUM. Ham talked about the idea
of them leaving the program and returning later, or at least facing an "honorable
discharge" rather than being made PARIAHS when they returned to their local fellowship.
See, this level of control over people's lives is the problem.And you won't if we wrote it out in 100 pages, with photos, recaps and summaries.
Just accept that what people experienced is NOTHING like what you saw,
even when it was a few feet away from you.
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WordWolf
It's almost amazing that "as you saw them" is as you STILL see them.
However, it's no longer news.
And it's "CM". Did you intend to make that an insult?
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ljn698
now i'm not one to criticise or condemn a fellow poster
but oldiesman you sure seem to have gotten the "'shroom treatment" while you were fellowshipping with TWI
but then again maybe this is not such a bad thing
sometimes i wish i was kept in the dark about some stuff
all this resentment can't be good for me!!!
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oldiesman
But the corps was a program that had rules.
You had to abide by those rules to remain...all of us did.
Therefore if you signed up for the Corps, you were placing your life under those rules.
Nobody to blame but yourself if you didn't follow the rules or had misgivings later on.
Yeah BM was meant to be insulting, did you not read "oldiesboy" or is it just me you are reproving cause you get off on dissecting most everything I write?
You're so good at that, WordWolf.
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CM
were wrong
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A la prochaine
Piping in...
To all posters (except OLDIESMAN) ... GREAT THREAD and POSTS!!!!
Oldiesman ... you are in perpetual denial.
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oldiesman
A La Prochaine,
I don't deny bad things happened in twi.
But it seems so obvious to me that folks made decisions in their lives and now some regret those decisions and boldly blame twi, as if it's always twi's fault.
ptwooee...
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Ham
NO
Under NO circumstances.
Not from around here, or my old state, for that matter..
What "others"? The treatment these poor folks got was standard operating procedure. The only reason I heard about it was they were from an area a hundred or so miles away, and der vey did not detect any kind of possible connection between me and them. Others simply dissappeared into the night, God only knows where..
Oh yes. One of the bigwigs kids was pregnant, I think. Mysteriously seemed to pass through the training with flying colors..
Interesting choice of words. I think der vey's actions gave us a rotten can of worms labelled beans. Now we find ourselves YEARS later finally dealing with this. Can of worms, yes. But for der vey.
True. Not many material possessions. But look at what they really lost- and I would rate it as being more devastating than losing all of your possessions in a house fire:
1. "Friends" back in the good old home town. They think you are "possessed".
2. Your good name. Yes, you're "possessed".
You're lower than the low. The unsalted, the uncommitted..
3. Any kind of expectation for some kind of support from said individuals. They've turned your back on you.
4. Their sanity- at least for some time. Can't convince me people take this stuff in stride like a leisure stroll in the park.
Oh yes, you could count material losses- they did abandon all that to go in the damned program to begin with.
Ever stop to think that YOU were about the only exception? When they put your "sorry" rear end out to the curb, you had some place to go. And from what I read about YOUR experience, it was STILL devastating. You would have done ANYTHING to stay there, practically speaking.
You had at least one luxury that MOST others did not.
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rascal
They changed the rules oldies.
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Ham
At LEAST one more luxury.
A place to go.
A place to sleep, comfortably.
A place to just sit down and cry.
A family to give you full support.
These folks, and others, had zero of the above.
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Ham
Gads.. this was in the "good old days".
You can't tell me vic wasn't on top of this stuff.. it was "his" baby..the corps, that is.
1978.
And it just got worse, and worse..
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rascal
Oldies the weapon utilized was the threatened consequences to be endured if we departed from twi, or for non compliance with leaders orders, or not finishing a program.
The threats were issued as edicts from God....far more intimidating for me than any physical harm.
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Ham
And at least one little thing that gave it that kind of power. MOST of us "burned our bridges". No way back.. at least in our minds.
For a lot of people, there REALLY was no way back. No job, no house, no support..
Personally, I "burned my bridges", and BARELY lived to tell about it.
Some of the stuff, I'm not ready to talk about, yet.
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rascal
Mr.Hamm, I am so sorry for what that couple endured for making the decision to have that baby instead of destroy it at leaderships demand........it is unconscionable what twi put them through for making that choice....
BUT...hear this...as devistating as the ministry made their lives....as harshly as they were punished.....just as SOON as that baby was born...trust me, that family knew that they made the right decision...and further more...every day that they have that child to love and nurture, they have it confirmed again and again, day after day.....that they made the right choice.
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Ham
Rascal, I think the only difference between you and them..
They were more sinister, devilish, and manipulative with you. Perhaps they had more practice.
I'd say God have mercy on their dark souls, but that's not up to me. Only He knows what's what, I guess..
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WordWolf
So many of the IMPORTANT rules-like EVER step out of line and your life is OVER-
were SECRET rules, never written or spoken to candidates who PAID THRU THE NOSE to be used
as manual labour and ordered around like chattel.
If the rules were few, reasonable, public, and clear, then it would be their faults.
The important rules were never stated. Again, if there were reasonable levels of rules, and open communication of them,THEN maybe I'd agree with you.
Admittedly, a lot of little insults here and there I don't notice. You might consider
ignoring the little ones and letting them pass. I've done that when a few of them were
directed at me. I wasn't sure if "oldiesboy" should be considered an insult. If you weren't
so eager to slap others, I might be a lot quicker to defend you, frankly.
Further,
I think there's benefit in dissecting some of the things you write because even YOU are
unaware of the subtexts in them. If there was no subtext, doing so would be rather silly.
I don't actually derive sexual pleasure from them as you suggested.
One needs do a thorough job when dealing with someone who hides insults, misdirections and
sexual innuendo in his posts. Therefore, for acknowledging my skill in exposing them, I
thank you for the compliment.
Now then, we were discussing the unwritten rules which were imposed on us, and were used as
a bludgeon to force conformity to the rules. Sure, we could have walked away- if we were
willing to forsake ALL friends and family (outsiders, we ALREADY avoided on orders
previously, insiders would now be told we were pariahs), and step outside the protection,
favour and will of God, setting ourselves up for imminent destruction-
and the destruction of our loved ones, as later became the doctrine.
Now, it was possible to ignore the suffering of others THEN by selective vision,
rewrite it by selective memory, or ignore the unjust treatment you or yours faced thru
rationalization. That is NOT, however, intellectually honest and most of us prefer to
refrain from it when we're aware of it.
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oldiesman
I think these are all gobbledygook rationalizations.
As I mentioned a long time ago with respect to choices and free will in twi: we all had it.
Only 3 exceptions I know of:
children are exempt
mentally retarded are exempt
drugged are exempt
all other decisions were made by free will choice
That's what I believe and I'm sticking to it.
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Ham
Ah yes. But what about YOUR experience? Self-admittedly, you would have done practically anything to stay in that hellhole.. same for me.
What would life have been like if you had no place to go?
No family, no friends?
No comfortable bed to sleep in?
Just a couple of thoughts.
May be a "personal" question, but hey, things are at least a little personal here..
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Ham
The only thing that "saved" me..
I would have gone to extraordinary efforts to stay. I simply saw, at the price they were asking, I simply could not afford the product. I could IN NO WAY come up with the down payment.
At the time, it did not make any difference whether or not they were what they claimed to be. No difference-
Now, I step back and look at what they were selling. Ptooie.
They didn't sell us the "good stuff", they had us smoking buffalo chips..
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rascal
you left out #4 Decieved....
We were decieved into believing that what twi required of us was GOD`S will.
Our options were always seemed to be between what we wanted and that which God required (as presented by twi)....to dissapoint God meant to endure destruction and the death of yourself and or loved ones.
Not much free will choice there.
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