The bible says that when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.
If Jesus says that when you pray, believe that you receive and you shall have, and someone else says that that is not possible, the reader must decide who to believe, Jesus or someone else.
I decide Jesus was correct, whether I see it or not.
If you decide otherwise, go ahead and believe what you want, its your choice.
But I haven't seen the scriptures disproven yet.
I think this is what "faith" is all about, you don't have to see it, to believe.
It was disproven to all those folks who prayed for their loved ones to be kept safe. It's been disproven for all those folks praying for help to get to them before more of them die. It was disproven to all those folks who prayed for their homes to be kept safe.
It was disproven to all those folks who prayed for their loved ones to be kept safe. It's been disproven for all those folks praying for help to get to them before more of them die. It was disproven to all those folks who prayed for their homes to be kept safe.
In that case, sometimes people pray for things that are not available.
I remember when my mother was very sick in the hospital, I prayed as hard as I could for her to recover.
She didn't.
But I knew in my heart that I was believing.
So what's the answer?
The answer was, it wasn't available.
In the final analysis, I would rather believe that something is not available, than to believe that the scriptures err.
The bible says that when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.
If Jesus says that when you pray, believe that you receive and you shall have, and someone else says that that is not possible, the reader must decide who to believe, Jesus or someone else.
None of that says, "unless it's not God's will" - None of "God's will" was taught in the TWI I was involved with. We TOLD God what to do and what to give us and if we didn't get what we prayed for it was because we were out of alignment and harmony or not believing.
Karmic, I prayed a few times during my last month in TWI using the words, "if it's your will...." and was reproved. My husband was so embarrassed that he yelled at me the whole way home for praying amiss. We believe God and THANK him for things - we don't say "if it's your will" - that's not believing.
*shrug* OM, It just doesn't make sense to me. Out of one side of your mouth you say that if we ask God for it then he "shall (absolutelyaccording to vee pee)" answer our prayers, but then out of the other side of your mouth you say "it wasn't available" when I question why your first statement patently appears to be false......
Regarding the devil having a hand in it, it's really simple.
There are two spiritual forces at work, God and Satan.
A hurricane is not a spiritual entity or force. It is a scientifically explainable natural force made up of wind, heat, moisture, etc.
Oldies, I think you are confusing the spiritual with the natural. Natural forces exist regardless of the Devil. There doesn't need to be a spiritual cause for natural phenomenon.
quote:
I decide Jesus was correct, whether I see it or not.
If you decide otherwise, go ahead and believe what you want, its your choice.
But I haven't seen the scriptures disproven yet.
It's your intepretation of the scriptures that you believe -- actually it's VPW's. Let's not confuse the actual Word of God with a particular persons explanation or understanding of it. I believe the scriptures also. However I chose a different explanation than VPW's. It's not the scriptures that have been "disproven". It's yours, VPW's. and other similar interpretations of them that are question.
Posted by Second James:
quote:
Some of us didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater
And some folks kept the dirty water and called it a baby.
VPW's 'Law of Believing' is not the baby, neither is his explanation of how the Devil operates.
quote:
God is still a God of Love & a source of help..heck I'll take his help anytime versus going at life alone!
This I agree with.
However, I see few here that are suggesting otherwise.
There is a difference between praying and accepting God's help, and thinking that the Devil created a hurricane and that you have the authority and power to stop it.
To disagree with your view on prayer and faith, "is not going at at life alone." It is simply understanding things in the Bible differently.
There is a difference between praying and accepting God's help, and thinking that the Devil created a hurricane and that you have the authority and power to stop it.
To disagree with your view on prayer and faith, "is not going at at life alone." It is simply understanding things in the Bible differently.
Goey, I always appreciate and respect your posts. You're right on here! Very well explained, too.
Just because I don't believe someone else's interpretation of the Bible does not mean that I don't believe in God or the Bible. It's just like my ex telling me that I was turning my back on God because I left TWI. I didn't turn my back on God, I turned my back on TWI.
*shrug* OM, It just doesn't make sense to me. Out of one side of your mouth you say that if we ask God for it then he "shall (absolutely according to vee pee)" answer our prayers, but then out of the other side of your mouth you say "it wasn't available" when I question why your first statement patently appears to be false......
The scripture says that when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.
Not VP. The scriptures say that.
It's very clear, just read what is written.
If you think that's false, you're entitled to your opinion.
But for me, rather than thinking that that promise is false, I would rather think that something was not available.
Or that I was praying amiss.
Or something else.
Not that that the scripture is false.
In other words, if it never comes to pass, it's still God's Word.
Otherwise, if I am missing something, please explain.
Oldies, I think you are confusing the spiritual with the natural. Natural forces exist regardless of the Devil. There doesn't need to be a spiritual cause for natural phenomenon.
Goey, that answer doesn't satisfy me, and I submit it wouldn't satisfy any believer in God wanting to have answers as to why these tragedies happen.
It's like saying its perfectly natural for God to create a natural phenomenon like a hurricane that kills many people and causes great damage.
Why would God do that?
I don't think God did that in nature, now or in the past.
I believe everything in the natural world comes from or originally came from something that does not appear, i.e., the spiritual source caused the natural.
Planet earth is natural, but who brought planet earth into being?
So to explain a hurricane as merely a "natural phenomenon" glosses over the spiritual realm.
quote:
It's your intepretation of the scriptures that you believe -- actually it's VPW's. Let's not confuse the actual Word of God with a particular persons explanation or understanding of it. I believe the scriptures also. However I chose a different explanation than VPW's. It's not the scriptures that have been "disproven". It's yours, VPW's. and other similar interpretations of them that are question.
I just read the verse.
I read what is written and come up with what it says, regardless of what VP taught.
Jesus said when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
That needs an interpretation?
It's right there in the verse.
However, I am open to hearing what your "interpretation" is, since you have one that apparently differs from mine.
You know, we had a tornado rip through our valley two summers ago.....
It came straight down the valley ripping up fences, destroying barnes, snapping power poles, it got right to my house...snapped the two 150 yr old maple trees that were 10 feet from the house....like they were twigs....after traveling a half a mile in a straight direction...and then instead of demolishing the house....took a sudden 45 degree turn ....crossed the street and headed over the hill to the next valley....there were tree limbs dropped on cars...other houses sustained great camage....one 7 yr old girl lost her life....
What turned it from it`s path a few yards from my front door? It sure as heck wasn`t my prayers OR my believing, because I didn`t know the damned thing was hitting (radar said it was 5 miles south)
Why was my house and children spared and the other families not? I dunno
I am gratefull, I am humbly thankfull to God.....but I don`t understand why I merited protection from a natural force while my neighbor didn`t.
I don`t think it has much to do with good or evil....but who happens to be in the path.
I cannot understand "There doesn't need to be a spiritual cause for natural phenomenon."
I can. I mean, come on, think about it. You're gonna tell me that every rain storm, every lightening bolt, etc., ... every situation that happens (good or bad) NEEDS to have some spirit entity behind it, motivating it for some supposedly 'higher' reason?
Why can't stuff just happen do to natural causes and reactions? ... Or would that make God any less 'sovereign' than He is supposed to be or something?
It's like saying its perfectly natural for God to create a natural phenomenon like a hurricane that kills many people and causes great damage.
Why would God do that?
You tell me. The earth has a core of molten metal/lava. From time to time it forces its way up and wreaks havoc in the form of a volcano. However, many years later the land surrounding the destruction is renewed even better than before. It is same with forest fires. floods and hurricanes. Consider the Missippi River Vally. It used to flood anually depositing rich silt renewing the land. Folks knew better than to build in the flood plain.
But according to your model, if someone built in the flood plain and got wiped out, it would be the Devil doing it. Then you also argue that if the Devil didn't do it then it must have been God, and why would God wipe out those innocent people that settled on that flood plain. I would ask, why would God stop the anual flooding that enriches the soil?
If God established an anual flood patern, then man builds levees,dams, and such, to hold back the water and build a city where the floods used to be. Is is God's obligation to hold the dams and levees closed? If they break and the city floods, how then is it God's or Satan doing?
quote:
I don't think God did that in nature, now or in the past.
I think it is pretty obvious that HE did.
quote:
I believe everything in the natural world comes from or originally came from something that does not appear, i.e., the spiritual source caused the natural.
I believe similarly. However, I do not beleive that current weather events, floods, earthquakes, etc, are being individually created and manuipulated by either God or the Devil. God created the earth and established the natural forces in it. This was long ago. It is only from that prospective that I beleive that God has a hand in it.
quote:
Planet earth is natural, but who brought planet earth into being?
This is not in question.
quote:
So to explain a hurricane as merely a "natural phenomenon" glosses over the spiritual realm.
No, it doesn't. The creation, creator is not in question here. What I am questioning is the notion that God or Satan pulls the strings NOW on such things. And that man's prayers can stop the natural forces that God set in motion long long ago.
quote:
I just read the verse.
I read what is written and come up with what it says, regardless of what VP taught.
Jesus said when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
That needs an interpretation?
It's right there in the verse.
Yes, it does need interpretation. Not only does it need interpretation in it's own local context, but in the context of the bible as a whole, in the context of natural laws, and in the context of our own experiences.
When a so-called 'Spiritual Law' which was developed from scripture seems to fail time and time again, maybe we should possibly consider that it was based upon a misunderstanding of the scriptures, instead of holding on to it at all costs.
quote:
However, I am open to hearing what your "interpretation" is, since you have one that apparently differs from mine.
Maybe some time in doctrinal, but this has been hashed out quite a few times already.
Goey, why didn't you say all that in the first place? :D-->
From what I understand of the gist you are saying that God set hurricanes in motion long ago for a good purpose and man shouldn't be living where it's "natural" for hurricanes to be. Is that correct?
I can accept this viewpoint, although I still leave room for the possibility that hurricanes could be a byproduct of the calamity between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.
Also fits with a point I made before about New Orleans being a calamity waiting to happen because their levees were inadequate.
Garth and Goey, I didn't suggest or mean that God or Satan pulls the strings NOW on hurricanes.
I think hurricanes could have been caused when things got out of whack between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. Goey's explanation is just as good, I really have no problem with it.
In any case, I believe that God doesn't want people destroyed, so people should make certain not to live in these centers of calamity where occurrances like this cause great damage, whether from God or Satan.
Oldies said: But for me, rather than thinking that that promise is false, I would rather think that something was not available.
Or that I was praying amiss.
We were all taught that if we didn't get our (desired)answer to prayer, that it was EITHER faulty believing OR it was not available. Unlike others who did not get the (desired)answer to their prayer, he's not blaming God.
As it happens, his prayer had no impact because prayer(believing) has no dominion over storms.
There is a spiritual realm and it is governed by spiritual laws. There is a physical realm and it is governed by physical laws. You cannot combat things in the spiritual realm with laws of the physical realm and you cannot combat things in the physical realm with laws for the spiritual realm.
Krys...then how do you explain Jesus casting demons (spiritiual) out of the possed man in the Gospels (definitely "natural")...Or what about Jesus sending out the 70 & they came back rejoicing because "even the devils were subject to them"????
God does not want his children to let Satan run all over them.
If we're really God's kids...I gotta believe that God does provide protection for them just as I would definitely protect my 3 babies.
Is there a record about Noah ? God caused it to rain.
Is there a record about Famine in the land God knew about it. His people where warned and told to be prepared for it.
God can control the weather this is written. so can satan that is written.
the fact the levies Did break man had at least a bit to do with the scale of this horrid story.
Satan I do not know yet I imagine he has caused the world to be ruined since he started here and will continue to do so.
why is this so dificult to understand?
I do not think as the people mocked Noah with his family and the animals heading in the boat that he even thought it could be possible but he did as he was told. all the mockers died.
My God isnt a Killer yet he doesnt really consider those who He knows (and I would say only he knows) will be evil against Him.
I think the bible clealry shows His enemys will die and eventualy burn. it isnt about people it is a spiritual thing.
God didnt want anyone to get hurt in Katrina that he loves. the rest unless they go to Him are on their own and pretty much at the mercy of whatever they have had so far.
what I wonder is why didnt these people leave? they were told to go it was going to be bad and then I thought about it maybe some had no where to go, some thought they would be better off then what happened. But many did leave I do not think God loves them more I think they used wisdom and knowledge and some just didnt.
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LG
Thank you, Belle.
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oldiesman
But I really don't have to cite a single example.
The bible says that when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.
If Jesus says that when you pray, believe that you receive and you shall have, and someone else says that that is not possible, the reader must decide who to believe, Jesus or someone else.
I decide Jesus was correct, whether I see it or not.
If you decide otherwise, go ahead and believe what you want, its your choice.
But I haven't seen the scriptures disproven yet.
I think this is what "faith" is all about, you don't have to see it, to believe.
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Belle
It was disproven to all those folks who prayed for their loved ones to be kept safe. It's been disproven for all those folks praying for help to get to them before more of them die. It was disproven to all those folks who prayed for their homes to be kept safe.
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Second James
Some of us didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater
God is still a God of Love & a source of help..heck I'll take his help anytime versus going at life alone!
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oldiesman
I remember when my mother was very sick in the hospital, I prayed as hard as I could for her to recover.
She didn't.
But I knew in my heart that I was believing.
So what's the answer?
The answer was, it wasn't available.
In the final analysis, I would rather believe that something is not available, than to believe that the scriptures err.
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karmicdebt
Uh, if i may...
Jesus may very well said
"when you pray, believe that you receive and you shall have"
but why exclude his more important statement...instructions!
"when ye pray...pray like this, Our Father...."
Can't really ask for a whole lot other than THY WILL BE DONE...DAILY BREAD...FORGIVENESS for ourselves and others...
simple.
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CoolWaters
Maybe it's all just Mother Earth taking a bath...
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Belle
None of that says, "unless it's not God's will" - None of "God's will" was taught in the TWI I was involved with. We TOLD God what to do and what to give us and if we didn't get what we prayed for it was because we were out of alignment and harmony or not believing.
Karmic, I prayed a few times during my last month in TWI using the words, "if it's your will...." and was reproved. My husband was so embarrassed that he yelled at me the whole way home for praying amiss. We believe God and THANK him for things - we don't say "if it's your will" - that's not believing.
*shrug* OM, It just doesn't make sense to me. Out of one side of your mouth you say that if we ask God for it then he "shall (absolutely according to vee pee)" answer our prayers, but then out of the other side of your mouth you say "it wasn't available" when I question why your first statement patently appears to be false......
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Goey
Posted by Oldiesman:
A hurricane is not a spiritual entity or force. It is a scientifically explainable natural force made up of wind, heat, moisture, etc.
Oldies, I think you are confusing the spiritual with the natural. Natural forces exist regardless of the Devil. There doesn't need to be a spiritual cause for natural phenomenon.
It's your intepretation of the scriptures that you believe -- actually it's VPW's. Let's not confuse the actual Word of God with a particular persons explanation or understanding of it. I believe the scriptures also. However I chose a different explanation than VPW's. It's not the scriptures that have been "disproven". It's yours, VPW's. and other similar interpretations of them that are question.
Posted by Second James:
And some folks kept the dirty water and called it a baby.VPW's 'Law of Believing' is not the baby, neither is his explanation of how the Devil operates.
This I agree with.However, I see few here that are suggesting otherwise.
There is a difference between praying and accepting God's help, and thinking that the Devil created a hurricane and that you have the authority and power to stop it.
To disagree with your view on prayer and faith, "is not going at at life alone." It is simply understanding things in the Bible differently.
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Belle
Goey, I always appreciate and respect your posts. You're right on here! Very well explained, too.
Just because I don't believe someone else's interpretation of the Bible does not mean that I don't believe in God or the Bible. It's just like my ex telling me that I was turning my back on God because I left TWI. I didn't turn my back on God, I turned my back on TWI.
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oldiesman
Not VP. The scriptures say that.
It's very clear, just read what is written.
If you think that's false, you're entitled to your opinion.
But for me, rather than thinking that that promise is false, I would rather think that something was not available.
Or that I was praying amiss.
Or something else.
Not that that the scripture is false.
In other words, if it never comes to pass, it's still God's Word.
Otherwise, if I am missing something, please explain.
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oldiesman
It's like saying its perfectly natural for God to create a natural phenomenon like a hurricane that kills many people and causes great damage.
Why would God do that?
I don't think God did that in nature, now or in the past.
I believe everything in the natural world comes from or originally came from something that does not appear, i.e., the spiritual source caused the natural.
Planet earth is natural, but who brought planet earth into being?
So to explain a hurricane as merely a "natural phenomenon" glosses over the spiritual realm.
I just read the verse.I read what is written and come up with what it says, regardless of what VP taught.
Jesus said when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
That needs an interpretation?
It's right there in the verse.
However, I am open to hearing what your "interpretation" is, since you have one that apparently differs from mine.
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rascal
You know, we had a tornado rip through our valley two summers ago.....
It came straight down the valley ripping up fences, destroying barnes, snapping power poles, it got right to my house...snapped the two 150 yr old maple trees that were 10 feet from the house....like they were twigs....after traveling a half a mile in a straight direction...and then instead of demolishing the house....took a sudden 45 degree turn ....crossed the street and headed over the hill to the next valley....there were tree limbs dropped on cars...other houses sustained great camage....one 7 yr old girl lost her life....
What turned it from it`s path a few yards from my front door? It sure as heck wasn`t my prayers OR my believing, because I didn`t know the damned thing was hitting (radar said it was 5 miles south)
Why was my house and children spared and the other families not? I dunno
I am gratefull, I am humbly thankfull to God.....but I don`t understand why I merited protection from a natural force while my neighbor didn`t.
I don`t think it has much to do with good or evil....but who happens to be in the path.
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Belle
How bout "we see through a glass darkly". How bout "I don't know". How bout "There's lots of things we can't know or understand right now."
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
I guess it's a matter of not wanting to accept (usually, believers of whatever religion you care to name) that, .... HAPPENS.
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oldiesman
I cannot understand "There doesn't need to be a spiritual cause for natural phenomenon."
Especially since we believe in a supreme spiritual force who cares about people.
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GarthP2000
I can. I mean, come on, think about it. You're gonna tell me that every rain storm, every lightening bolt, etc., ... every situation that happens (good or bad) NEEDS to have some spirit entity behind it, motivating it for some supposedly 'higher' reason?
Why can't stuff just happen do to natural causes and reactions? ... Or would that make God any less 'sovereign' than He is supposed to be or something?
Hmmmm?
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Goey
But according to your model, if someone built in the flood plain and got wiped out, it would be the Devil doing it. Then you also argue that if the Devil didn't do it then it must have been God, and why would God wipe out those innocent people that settled on that flood plain. I would ask, why would God stop the anual flooding that enriches the soil?
If God established an anual flood patern, then man builds levees,dams, and such, to hold back the water and build a city where the floods used to be. Is is God's obligation to hold the dams and levees closed? If they break and the city floods, how then is it God's or Satan doing?
I think it is pretty obvious that HE did. I believe similarly. However, I do not beleive that current weather events, floods, earthquakes, etc, are being individually created and manuipulated by either God or the Devil. God created the earth and established the natural forces in it. This was long ago. It is only from that prospective that I beleive that God has a hand in it. This is not in question. No, it doesn't. The creation, creator is not in question here. What I am questioning is the notion that God or Satan pulls the strings NOW on such things. And that man's prayers can stop the natural forces that God set in motion long long ago. Yes, it does need interpretation. Not only does it need interpretation in it's own local context, but in the context of the bible as a whole, in the context of natural laws, and in the context of our own experiences.When a so-called 'Spiritual Law' which was developed from scripture seems to fail time and time again, maybe we should possibly consider that it was based upon a misunderstanding of the scriptures, instead of holding on to it at all costs.
Maybe some time in doctrinal, but this has been hashed out quite a few times already.Link to comment
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oldiesman
Goey, why didn't you say all that in the first place?
:D-->
From what I understand of the gist you are saying that God set hurricanes in motion long ago for a good purpose and man shouldn't be living where it's "natural" for hurricanes to be. Is that correct?
I can accept this viewpoint, although I still leave room for the possibility that hurricanes could be a byproduct of the calamity between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.
Also fits with a point I made before about New Orleans being a calamity waiting to happen because their levees were inadequate.
Garth and Goey, I didn't suggest or mean that God or Satan pulls the strings NOW on hurricanes.
I think hurricanes could have been caused when things got out of whack between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. Goey's explanation is just as good, I really have no problem with it.
In any case, I believe that God doesn't want people destroyed, so people should make certain not to live in these centers of calamity where occurrances like this cause great damage, whether from God or Satan.
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krys
We were all taught that if we didn't get our (desired)answer to prayer, that it was EITHER faulty believing OR it was not available. Unlike others who did not get the (desired)answer to their prayer, he's not blaming God.
As it happens, his prayer had no impact because prayer(believing) has no dominion over storms.
There is a spiritual realm and it is governed by spiritual laws. There is a physical realm and it is governed by physical laws. You cannot combat things in the spiritual realm with laws of the physical realm and you cannot combat things in the physical realm with laws for the spiritual realm.
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outandabout
George Bush is responsible for tornadoes.
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Second James
Krys...then how do you explain Jesus casting demons (spiritiual) out of the possed man in the Gospels (definitely "natural")...Or what about Jesus sending out the 70 & they came back rejoicing because "even the devils were subject to them"????
God does not want his children to let Satan run all over them.
If we're really God's kids...I gotta believe that God does provide protection for them just as I would definitely protect my 3 babies.
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sirguessalot
i know i wasnt asked, but...
i think we often get caught up in the language, mostly
either
1) we have a death grip on 2000+ years old mythic translations of reality
or
2) we reject the partially valid notions expressed by those same old translations of reality
or
3) something else entirely, of course
which leaves us mostly unable to relate
and we end up with things like:
"i do not understand how you can believe such a thing, therefore you must be crazy"
or even
"i do understand how you can believe such a thing, i just dont understand why i cant change your mind about it, therefore you must be crazy"
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mj412
Is there a record about Noah ? God caused it to rain.
Is there a record about Famine in the land God knew about it. His people where warned and told to be prepared for it.
God can control the weather this is written. so can satan that is written.
the fact the levies Did break man had at least a bit to do with the scale of this horrid story.
Satan I do not know yet I imagine he has caused the world to be ruined since he started here and will continue to do so.
why is this so dificult to understand?
I do not think as the people mocked Noah with his family and the animals heading in the boat that he even thought it could be possible but he did as he was told. all the mockers died.
My God isnt a Killer yet he doesnt really consider those who He knows (and I would say only he knows) will be evil against Him.
I think the bible clealry shows His enemys will die and eventualy burn. it isnt about people it is a spiritual thing.
God didnt want anyone to get hurt in Katrina that he loves. the rest unless they go to Him are on their own and pretty much at the mercy of whatever they have had so far.
what I wonder is why didnt these people leave? they were told to go it was going to be bad and then I thought about it maybe some had no where to go, some thought they would be better off then what happened. But many did leave I do not think God loves them more I think they used wisdom and knowledge and some just didnt.
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