We shook hands, you know, and he asked me what I wanted to be. I told him, "A man of God like you." That's what I said, but I thought it was just kid's talk. You know how kids talk."
Reminds me of young George Washington's claim to fame:
this was my issue with twi really, how can the bible say one who does not provide for his household is worse than an infidel, yet a true "believer" can just quit his job when he has a family, because God will provide? so he can go to the class ya know, or run it in is house...then when the landlord says your done because you didnt pay the rent, and they are homeless, they say it is an attack of the devil.
no common sense. and that is how I saw alot of hate grow believers living very poorly sick, unhappy getting divorced and those pesky unbelievers living the good life!
it makes people bitter and full of anger and thinking the whole world outside of who they may be is out to get them.
hence the birth of a cult.
I learned to go to God, through twi, because they did me in one to many times with their idea's and then shame when it didnt quite work out .
Precisely--that was the first thing they tried to weed out of your thought process. THat's being "carnally minded" doncha know. "five sense" orientated.
God never has told his people to put their brains on hold.
In fact the scriptures are full of admonition to do just the opposite-- provide for one's family, care for the elderly, the sick, the widow, the orphan --
Nowhere does GOD say just sit on your padded posterior and talk about me.
Jesus CHrist was a Carpenter and Fisherman
The Apostles all had jobs
PAul was a tentmaker
If they held jobs and provided for their own are we entitled to do less???
"You've got to be ready because you're all I've got. If you aren't ready, who is going to run those classes, undershepherd those people, teach others to stand and lead?"
My question is more like:
And if these classes don't run, is God completely SOL?
If he isn't, why talk like the ALMIGHTY GOD is completely dependant on YOU?
quote:
"The next thing I recall vividly happened when I was eight or nine years old. There was a Mission Festival in New Knoxville. I was sitting with my mother. (The men and women sat separately in those days.) There was a guest minister that day, a certain Dr Lohman, and after the sermon-I don't remember much of what he said-we went up to meet him. We shook hands, you know, and he asked me what I wanted to be. I told him, "A man of God like you." That's what I said, but I thought it was just kid's talk. You know how kids talk."
In other words, vpw saw this minister, had NO intention of becoming a minister,
looked him in the eye, and said "I want to be a minister just like you."
That was at age 8 or 9.
When I was 8, if I looked in the eye of a minister, I wouldn't even have THOUGHT
of lying to him.
If I looked in the of a teacher, I wouldn't have lied to him or her.
The same applies to age 9.
"You know how kids talk."
Um, they LIE?
Not me when I was growing up. I'd be SHOCKED if I was the ONLY one who told the
truth to authority figures, especially one representing God Almighty.
I didn't even have to be TOLD the difference, either.
So, his early recollections include him lying to suck up to authority figures.
Reminds me of Frank Baum's OZ books where Wierdsvillage is behind the curtain addressing Martindale as the scarecrow asking for brains, Howard Allen as the wood tinman for a heart, and Robert Moneyhan for courage.
Well...he n Dotsie were married in secret so he could play basketball...seems like he ALWAYS had secrets of one sort or another...Never one to play by the rules was he?
I agree with act 2 ... Thankyou wordwolf, I remebered this book as read through my young foolish eyes....sigh
I absolutely do not remember it being so transparent, so insipid or so self agrandising.
I wonder how much of twi classes and books were in reality as pathetic as this info mercial called twliv that I once thought so marvelous....
I wonder if a lot of what we thought was so great .... was because we were TOLD it was great and because of our youth and foolishness....we accepted it as the only *truth* and *God`s best available*
Wierwille seems to portray himself as "good-at-everything": basketball, motorcycle riding (and repair), guitar playing, business ("I was offered a job as Vice-President of AB Dick")...you name it, but that he "gave it all up for The Word"
In many ways these "stow-ries" remind me of the class geek who wants to inflate his importance by telling tales of all the great people he knows and the wonderful adventures he has...when no one else is around.
One of these men, he's got so much money, but he's going to be a dead man within five years if he doesn't go with God. He's being eaten away by fears and worries. All that money just can't buy peace in the heart.
If it were my choice, I'd go with God."
Folks?
Gotta wonder how long these guys lasted...(I`d LOVE to hear that they were alive and well) when ol vp only lasted what...ten years after making this statement?
Alla that peace and going with God didn`t really ensure HIM a free pass from an early death did it?
Seems to be there might be some flaw in his logic...
Are you assuming that these guys he's talking about even existed?
There was also the persistant Way mythology that "believing" would override any health concerns.
If he hadn't spent a chunk of his time deriding others who didn't believe, or point out these other people who died young (or would die young, as per his prediction) due to their negative believeing, then it wouldn't be an issue, but he did. It's an issue, and a topic of discussion because he succumbed to what he mocked others for.
I think "holding it in abeyance" was/is a very good option when one doesn't have an answer to a biblical problem.
Yes, put that way, I agree with you Oldies, but that wasn't usually what it was:
Wierwille would hold forth on something for which he had no biblical foundation. I'm not saying he did this all the time, but you and I both know that there were plenty of occassions where he would say something along the lines of "we haven't found the text yet, but it's got to be such-and-such". Anyway, someone would ask for an explanation and be brushed off and told that they needed to gain more maturity, or they would get it if they were faithful, or some other dodge.
Those weren't situations where no one had the answer, Wierwille taught about it. If he was the great resaerch and teaching whiz, then he HAD the answer. But in reality, he didn't have an anser, he was shooting from the hip, or massaging scripture or concepts to fit one of his other doctrines. He, and his "leaders" had to put people off, because there WAS NO ANSWER.
Now, you mentioned that you received written answers to your questions. I did too on a few occassions, especially when I was new to TWI and was asking fairly basic questions. Any complex or deep questions were pushed aside, though.
quote:
I submit that back in the good 'ol days, if one had an answer, and it didn't match twi and/or one couldn't live with twi's answers, one may simply leave if they couldn't live with twi's version, or never get involved in the first place, which describes many.
Bad new days too - but many of us believed that that TWI was the place where God's Word lived, and when we saw what we perceived as an error, we didn't want to jump ship when we disagreed, but wanted to either come to an understanding of why we were wrong, or convince "leadership" that the doctrine needed to be changed.
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penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
oldiesman
He smoked too much.
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rascal
Well YEAH...and drank like a fish ... and didn`t exercise....
None of that shouldda mattered though ...cause he had peace in the heart.....maybe HE was the one who didn`t understand *going with God*
I`d love to know how long the folks who`s early demise was promised because of their worries and fears lasted....
Probably in truth....just another set of characters made up to illustrate and support his ideology.
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Ham
Reminds me of young George Washington's claim to fame:
"George, didst thou chop down yon cherry tree???"
"Ummm, could be.."
:D-->
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Ham
What a "good boy"
:)-->
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Ham
That was my real first impression when I first read that thing twenty some years ago..
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mj412
I do believe God supplies.
But I also believe we should not TEMPT God.
What does that mean? one of the commandments.
this was my issue with twi really, how can the bible say one who does not provide for his household is worse than an infidel, yet a true "believer" can just quit his job when he has a family, because God will provide? so he can go to the class ya know, or run it in is house...then when the landlord says your done because you didnt pay the rent, and they are homeless, they say it is an attack of the devil.
no common sense. and that is how I saw alot of hate grow believers living very poorly sick, unhappy getting divorced and those pesky unbelievers living the good life!
it makes people bitter and full of anger and thinking the whole world outside of who they may be is out to get them.
hence the birth of a cult.
I learned to go to God, through twi, because they did me in one to many times with their idea's and then shame when it didnt quite work out .
twi is NOT God.
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templelady
Precisely--that was the first thing they tried to weed out of your thought process. THat's being "carnally minded" doncha know. "five sense" orientated.
God never has told his people to put their brains on hold.
In fact the scriptures are full of admonition to do just the opposite-- provide for one's family, care for the elderly, the sick, the widow, the orphan --
Nowhere does GOD say just sit on your padded posterior and talk about me.
Jesus CHrist was a Carpenter and Fisherman
The Apostles all had jobs
PAul was a tentmaker
If they held jobs and provided for their own are we entitled to do less???
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Dilva
AMEN and AMEN!!!!!!!!!
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WordWolf
My question is more like:
And if these classes don't run, is God completely SOL?
If he isn't, why talk like the ALMIGHTY GOD is completely dependant on YOU?
In other words, vpw saw this minister, had NO intention of becoming a minister,
looked him in the eye, and said "I want to be a minister just like you."
That was at age 8 or 9.
When I was 8, if I looked in the eye of a minister, I wouldn't even have THOUGHT
of lying to him.
If I looked in the of a teacher, I wouldn't have lied to him or her.
The same applies to age 9.
"You know how kids talk."
Um, they LIE?
Not me when I was growing up. I'd be SHOCKED if I was the ONLY one who told the
truth to authority figures, especially one representing God Almighty.
I didn't even have to be TOLD the difference, either.
So, his early recollections include him lying to suck up to authority figures.
Interesting.
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WordWolf
Comments, people?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Reminds me of Frank Baum's OZ books where Wierdsvillage is behind the curtain addressing Martindale as the scarecrow asking for brains, Howard Allen as the wood tinman for a heart, and Robert Moneyhan for courage.
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Ham
Thomas, I thought it was HA asking for brains, Moneyhands looking for a heart, and the cowardly loy looking for courage.
But what do I know..
:D-->
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
And of course Donna and Rosalie as the 2 witches of The East and the West,
respectively. Not sure where this puts Chris Geer, unless he is the Dorothy Gale character.
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WordWolf
For someone who can't remember the past, he sure could recall a lot
of names, almost as if he wants to name-drop.
Further, as someone found out, Moody has no record of vpw completing
ANY of its classes, which is the indicator someone completed a class.
Sounds like his claim of taking "all" their classes is just hot air.
BTW,
what does "involved with" mean here?
I mean one Greasespotter found the complete list of the team rosters of the
Sheboygan Redskins, and his name wasn't there.
Of course, "involved with" eventually became
"played on" which became
"I invented the hook shot"...
Don't forget, that's still one drink whenever something or someone is "the best"...
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rascal
Well...he n Dotsie were married in secret so he could play basketball...seems like he ALWAYS had secrets of one sort or another...Never one to play by the rules was he?
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act2
WordWolf, a big thank you for taking the time to dissect this book. I have read your excerpts thru much different eyes.
Most of us were young and foolish at that time.
30 years ago, when I took pfal, I thought it was so cool. Young and foolish, like I said.
I have nothing to add to this, because it has been said so eloquently by you and the other posters.
Thanks again.
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Ham
Probably one of those pesky flying monkeys..
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rascal
I agree with act 2 ... Thankyou wordwolf, I remebered this book as read through my young foolish eyes....sigh
I absolutely do not remember it being so transparent, so insipid or so self agrandising.
I wonder how much of twi classes and books were in reality as pathetic as this info mercial called twliv that I once thought so marvelous....
I wonder if a lot of what we thought was so great .... was because we were TOLD it was great and because of our youth and foolishness....we accepted it as the only *truth* and *God`s best available*
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
wordwolf
i also thank you for this thread
wwe were all so naive we couldn't see the tree in the forrest
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WordWolf
Ok, here's some information on this Sheboygan Redskins thing.
Someone found a PDF file online where someone put an anti-cult paper online.
They said to google for "Sheboygan Redskins in the NBL".
It's called "An Analysis of Some of the Cults..."
and it's also up in RTT format.
You can download it now yourselves-I just did.
Now then, it has a comment that vpw played for the Sheboygan Redskins.
No clarifications beyond what we read in THIS book.
So, I scrolled to the Bibliography.
Guess what?
The source for this "confirmation" was THIS BOOK.
In other words, this PDF book confirms what this book says-because it uses this book
as the source.
If I wrote a book saying I was an astronaut and flew in the Space Shuttle,
and a website quoted my book and said I did, you can't use that website as "proof"
that I was on the shuttle.
So, that covers that PDF.
As usual, an anti-cult book was written with sloppy research and using hearsay as
"facts".
=========
Posters have confirmed that vpw played basketball in high school.
They even found a team pic with him on it-from high school.
Then again, this means, at best, he was as good an athlete as ME-
I was on a COLLEGE Varsity team for 2 years.
Nobody ever questioned him playing High School basketball.
=======
Pirate1974 posted the following.
Pirate also posted a list of the names of the players for the entire run of the team,
and speculated on who vpw MIGHT be.
Based on reviewing the EXACT quote from this book, I think "involved in" might have
meant "helped them warm up", "was the waterboy", etc.
It's possible that vpw EITHER
1) Was BRILLIANT with aliases or
2) Lied to us a lot.
Either explains why the Sheboygan Redskins don't have his name, and why Moody doesn't
have his name although he supposedly took "ALL" their classes.
BTW,
"I played basketball all thru college"
is not synonymous with
"I played on my college's varsity basketball team"
or even "I was on my college's varsity basketball team".
If he showed up on a court and played a game of pick-up once a month,
then he "played basketball all thru college".
If he was on the Junior Varsity team (the second string team), then he
"played basketball all thru college".
People have seen pics of him on the HIGH SCHOOL team, but not his COLLEGE team.
This is NOT a guarantee he was NOT on the team. However, given his tendency to plug
his few LEGITIMATE accomplishments on great detail (Masters degree), for him to suddenly
get COY about his basketball "career" in college, only to inflate it AFTER college
(his "involvement" with a professional team) seems uncharacteristic and nonsensical.
============
BTW,
I'd appreciate the inputs of the other people following along on this thread. That's one
reason I posted the quotes BEFORE starting detailed discussion and analysis.
I mean, I deeply appreciate the thanks, but I think we can all benefit from those who
lived some of these...
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Oakspear
Wierwille seems to portray himself as "good-at-everything": basketball, motorcycle riding (and repair), guitar playing, business ("I was offered a job as Vice-President of AB Dick")...you name it, but that he "gave it all up for The Word"
In many ways these "stow-ries" remind me of the class geek who wants to inflate his importance by telling tales of all the great people he knows and the wonderful adventures he has...when no one else is around.
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
There was also the persistant Way mythology that "believing" would override any health concerns.
If he hadn't spent a chunk of his time deriding others who didn't believe, or point out these other people who died young (or would die young, as per his prediction) due to their negative believeing, then it wouldn't be an issue, but he did. It's an issue, and a topic of discussion because he succumbed to what he mocked others for.
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Oakspear
Wierwille would hold forth on something for which he had no biblical foundation. I'm not saying he did this all the time, but you and I both know that there were plenty of occassions where he would say something along the lines of "we haven't found the text yet, but it's got to be such-and-such". Anyway, someone would ask for an explanation and be brushed off and told that they needed to gain more maturity, or they would get it if they were faithful, or some other dodge.
Those weren't situations where no one had the answer, Wierwille taught about it. If he was the great resaerch and teaching whiz, then he HAD the answer. But in reality, he didn't have an anser, he was shooting from the hip, or massaging scripture or concepts to fit one of his other doctrines. He, and his "leaders" had to put people off, because there WAS NO ANSWER.
Now, you mentioned that you received written answers to your questions. I did too on a few occassions, especially when I was new to TWI and was asking fairly basic questions. Any complex or deep questions were pushed aside, though.
Bad new days tooLink to comment
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