Are you sure you haven't kept forsaking the spring of living waters for another broken cistern?
LDS has an equally shaky beginning with Joseph Smith and his plates and special glasses and many painful lessons over the years including polygamy and racism.
LDS theology takes many leaps with science and history, what makes it so appealing after twi?
page 34, same discussion, has something I especially thought was worth
noting.
quote:
"But what The Doctor teaches in that class in 33 hours I couldn't teach you in 33 hours. He's been doing research and teaching for 30 years now and he's a terrific teacher. That class will give you the foundation, the keys to understanding God's Word. It'll really blow your mind. The depth of that class is just tremendous.
Ok, let's see...
We have the "this is the greatest class in the world" stuff,
which is a lie because the ORIGINAL was LEONARD's and all
indications are it's better.
We have "the Doctor" thing again.
We have the "he's been doing research and teaching for 30
years now and this is the result" thing, which, as we NOW know,
is a dirty lie. vpw was an unimpressive researcher and teacher
when relying on his own abilities (or lack thereof).
So, HIS ability to teach and research here are irrelevant.
It was his ability to photocopy and mimic the material,
substance, style AND PRESENTATION of BG Leonard that made the
difference between "some guy in a pulpit" and "some guy with
a great class."
Of course, the HONEST thing would have been to either make
arrangements for LEONARD's class over here or at least
acknowledge the material was LEONARD's, but honesty was never
a priority with vpw-it interfered with his ability to put forth
LDS has an equally shaky beginning with Joseph Smith and his plates and special glasses and many painful lessons over the years including polygamy and racism.
LDS theology takes many leaps with science and history, what makes it so appealing after twi?
We are not told to venerate Joseph Smith or any prophet ahead of GOD. We are taught that we are not to take at face value anything a Prophet says without holding it up to the light of Scripture and praying about it.
The story of Brigham Young saying the moon was made of cheese and men in Top hats lived there has been taken out of context many times. What Brigham Young in fact said after he made that pronouncement was "go home and pray about what I just said". the next day President Young asked the same group "how many believe what I said yesterday" and everyone but one man raised his hand. Brigham Young then asked "how many went home and prayed about what I said" and the man who had not raised his hand before was the only one to raise it in response to this question. Prtesident Young went on to point out how this example should have made clear to everyone and That GOd was the final authority as to truth.
In order to accept the LDS faith you have to believe that Joseph Smith did in fact find the plates and translate them, that he was in fact a prophet called of GOD. I studied the LDS church on and off for 34 years before joining. The turning point for me was Doctrine & Covenants Section 87 (Doctrine and Covenants is a series of revelations given to President/Prophets of the Church starting in Sept of 1823 to June of 1978) In D&C 87 GOd makes the following revelations to Joseph Smith the then President/Prophet of the LDS church
South Carolina will Rebel against the United States
THe result of this will be a war that will cost many lives
The Southern States will unite against the Northern States in this war
Great Britain will side with the South
Slaves will rise up againt their masters at this time
European Wars to follow [Karl MArx's therories gain hold in Europe and Russia]
Joseph Smith died in October of 1844, sixteen years befor the Civil War. This prophecy was given to him on Dec 25, 1832, Twenty Eight years before the Civil War--clearly only GOd could have revealed it to him.
Polygamy was not, as many suppose, a willy nilly free for all of sexual gluttony. Very few Men were called by God to practice it ( these callings were confirmed by the Aposltles and Presidency of the church) It provided for women who were widows or women who were in areas with few husbands available in an era where a woman alone would be in dire straits. A man who had more that one wife had to provide each with her own residence, each wife was to have an equal amount of material goods, and her husbands time and devotion. Men who failed to live up to this were disciplined. To claim a relationship with the polygamists of today (despite what they say) and the LDS church has as much validity as claiming the Baptists are responsible for white supremists. Neither group can be held accoutable for those who would twist doctine to their own purposes.
THe Curse of CAin doctrine (regarding black people) promulgated by President Brigham Young was in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, wrong (see above about believing everything that comes out of a prophets mouth)
There is a really excellent web site that explains far better than I could about the LDS church Vis-a vis Black members.
As for racism in the church The LDS are no worse or better that the Southern Baptist Convention and many other Churchs that held racist views about black americans
This has been a lenghty post--please understand I am answering a question from my personal viewpoint. This post is not to convince anyone of the "Rightness" of my position nor do I wish anyone to try and convert me to the "rightness" of theirs. Thank You :)-->
I don`t know wolf, I never made it past my app. year (3 times lol) then became corpes spouse.
All I know is that once I applied, life became pretty tough...all of a sudden ... they OWNED my friggin a$$.
I was subject to everyone`s orders, room inspections by my lc became acceptable, all of my activities were dictated, who/what I was allowed to participte in, where/who I lived with.... was expected to take/participate in any class or event.
I was required to go to extra leadership *training* at the limb....what great secrets and training did I enjoy??????
Why we were dropped off in pairs aroung the city for a little door to door witnessing!
Being app corpes meant that you were open to face meltings on a whim....because of out greater committment ... we were expected to be mature enough to handle it and understand the *love* in which it was given.
I can only speculate that it was more of the same upon entering residence.
As far as I could tell....that *greater* committment of being corpes simply meant that one was expected to be willing to put up with/ ignore/endure the outragious demands and behavior of the leaders in charge...
I like to refer to TWLIL as my favorite book of Way *fiction* as I never saw the utopia that was alleged to have existed at HQ or in the lives of those who were totally committed to TWI. In my opinion it was a glorified religious phamplet/tract designed for marketing purposes.
I'll say this though. It was very much a product of the time and any well-meaning, young person looking to make a difference would typically get excited when reading some of the passages though it could also be very corny in its attempts to make HQ look like the Elysian Fields.
What we learn here in two years would take ten to fifteen years in the
outside world to learn."
Man oh Man...don't even know where to start with this one... but this Tim character was gone by mid 70's if I remember correctly. So it makes me wonder...???
What we learn here in two years would take ten to fifteen years in the
outside world to learn."
Ah, what a "bargain".
NOW tell me what that diploma is worth..
Ten to fifteen YEARS? I should have run away when I heard these kinds of claims..
Now if they said, "we heap ten to fifteen years of ABUSE into two short years (besides interim years)" it probably would be a little closer to the truth.
What struck me as odd with the Corps experience is I saw many intelligent and well off people go into the Corps. By the time they graduated, they looked so shabby [except for the suits and long dresses].
Because they were instructed to be *extremely* frugal, they got their clothing by swapping with each other or by what was left behind from previous Corps folks.
I remember this one elegant person; she went in with beautiful clothing and well kept [and current] hairstyle.
I attended a meeting she held after her graduation. She was in an outfit that was at least 10 years out of style, it was too tight, and all the wrong colors for her. Her hair was in serious need of repair! She looked old.
And all the while spouting the MORE than abundant life!! This gal was a successful businesswoman who had sold all her earthly possessions to go Way Corps.
Man, talk about wielding guilt with scripture---sell all your possessions. Sheesh, that was at a particular time with Jesus, and VP ain't no Jesus!!!
I must agree with you...at least that's what happened to me.
After I was in the Corps...I had no money to buy anything 'up and coming', nor did I have any idea what was out there in fashion because we weren't allowed to go shopping.
We were cut off.
sigh...I can't believe I lived like this at the age of 21!!!
...I never made it past my app. year...all I know is that once I applied, life became pretty tough...all of a sudden ... they OWNED my friggin a$$.
I was subject to everyone`s orders, room inspections by my lc became acceptable, all of my activities were dictated, who/what I was allowed to participte in, where/who I lived with.... was expected to take/participate in any class or event...Being app corpes meant that you were open to face meltings on a whim....because of out greater committment ... we were expected to be mature enough to handle it and understand the *love* in which it was given.
I can only speculate that it was more of the same upon entering residence.
As far as I could tell....that *greater* committment of being corpes simply meant that one was expected to be willing to put up with/ ignore/endure the outragious demands and behavior of the leaders in charge...
Hmmm...sounds like life as a "regular believer" in the late 90's
"The Corps program is the best. To live here and have the Doctor
work with us is extraordinary. He allows us to see the ministry through
his eyes. He shares everything with us. And sometimes it's a bummer.
But he lays it out.
The idea of the Corps is to transmit the commitment and dedication of the ministry so that we can teach others where he can't be himself.
It works by osmosis here. I can't quite express it in words, but I can
feel it and see it and know it. It's learning to be keen and sensitive to
the spirit of God anywhere and anytime. We are really privileged to be
able to do this here.
Man.. this one is loaded!!!
Where does someone begin?
I've highlighted in bold what I wanted to address.
1) "the" doctor.. say no more -->
2) he "allows" us to see...blah blah blah... Oh my --> .. ALLOWS... man oh man... how this person has made himself so inferior to 'the' doctor or 'the' doctor made sure he stayed in his place. This seems to work for THE doctor...but not quite sure what Tim is getting outta' all of this?
3)..through 'his' eyes... now tell me.. why didn't the good ole' doctor allow others to share what they saw through their eyes? Sounds like a very one sided situation.
4)...and sometimes it's a bummer...must have been talking about them ranting and raving situations.. or maybe when Tim would stumble upon things he wasn't quite comfortable with??? hmmmmmmmmmmm???
5)...he lays it out...again, full control
6)...to transmit the commitment and dedication of the ministry...HUH??????? what about God? what about Jesus Christ? what about helping others in need? nope... i guess that wasn't TWI's agenda regarding the way corps.. it was bottom line...promote TWI!
7)...where he can't be himself... a little full of ourselves are we?
8)...osmosis...now i'm really confused? --> osmosis: 2) process by which something is acquired by absorption. (pocket oxford dictionary)
You mean to say that all those hours spent in those classes and I could have just absorbed it osmosisly?
9)...feel...see...know...it all seems very 5 senses...sheeshh...not the way corps motto now is it?
10)...privileged...what about TWI being 'privileged' to have people willing to work for nothing and be their salespersons for free?
Yeah, being Corps, yeah, that was sure great, especially after graduation and it hits you that now you're a slave to TWI for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, and if you leave you are FORSAKING GOD.
So you have to take all the crap the higher ups dish out.
Things like "How could you let THAT happen? You're Corps!" (Like when somebody else does something, somehow you're to blame, because YOU'RE CORPS.)
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penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
def59
Templelady
Are you sure you haven't kept forsaking the spring of living waters for another broken cistern?
LDS has an equally shaky beginning with Joseph Smith and his plates and special glasses and many painful lessons over the years including polygamy and racism.
LDS theology takes many leaps with science and history, what makes it so appealing after twi?
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Nottawayfer
Sure, I will. My mind sure was blown.....from frickin boredom!
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WordWolf
Ok, let's see...
We have the "this is the greatest class in the world" stuff,
which is a lie because the ORIGINAL was LEONARD's and all
indications are it's better.
We have "the Doctor" thing again.
We have the "he's been doing research and teaching for 30
years now and this is the result" thing, which, as we NOW know,
is a dirty lie. vpw was an unimpressive researcher and teacher
when relying on his own abilities (or lack thereof).
So, HIS ability to teach and research here are irrelevant.
It was his ability to photocopy and mimic the material,
substance, style AND PRESENTATION of BG Leonard that made the
difference between "some guy in a pulpit" and "some guy with
a great class."
Of course, the HONEST thing would have been to either make
arrangements for LEONARD's class over here or at least
acknowledge the material was LEONARD's, but honesty was never
a priority with vpw-it interfered with his ability to put forth
that he was some great one.
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templelady
We are not told to venerate Joseph Smith or any prophet ahead of GOD. We are taught that we are not to take at face value anything a Prophet says without holding it up to the light of Scripture and praying about it.
The story of Brigham Young saying the moon was made of cheese and men in Top hats lived there has been taken out of context many times. What Brigham Young in fact said after he made that pronouncement was "go home and pray about what I just said". the next day President Young asked the same group "how many believe what I said yesterday" and everyone but one man raised his hand. Brigham Young then asked "how many went home and prayed about what I said" and the man who had not raised his hand before was the only one to raise it in response to this question. Prtesident Young went on to point out how this example should have made clear to everyone and That GOd was the final authority as to truth.
In order to accept the LDS faith you have to believe that Joseph Smith did in fact find the plates and translate them, that he was in fact a prophet called of GOD. I studied the LDS church on and off for 34 years before joining. The turning point for me was Doctrine & Covenants Section 87 (Doctrine and Covenants is a series of revelations given to President/Prophets of the Church starting in Sept of 1823 to June of 1978) In D&C 87 GOd makes the following revelations to Joseph Smith the then President/Prophet of the LDS church
South Carolina will Rebel against the United States
THe result of this will be a war that will cost many lives
The Southern States will unite against the Northern States in this war
Great Britain will side with the South
Slaves will rise up againt their masters at this time
European Wars to follow [Karl MArx's therories gain hold in Europe and Russia]
Joseph Smith died in October of 1844, sixteen years befor the Civil War. This prophecy was given to him on Dec 25, 1832, Twenty Eight years before the Civil War--clearly only GOd could have revealed it to him.
Polygamy was not, as many suppose, a willy nilly free for all of sexual gluttony. Very few Men were called by God to practice it ( these callings were confirmed by the Aposltles and Presidency of the church) It provided for women who were widows or women who were in areas with few husbands available in an era where a woman alone would be in dire straits. A man who had more that one wife had to provide each with her own residence, each wife was to have an equal amount of material goods, and her husbands time and devotion. Men who failed to live up to this were disciplined. To claim a relationship with the polygamists of today (despite what they say) and the LDS church has as much validity as claiming the Baptists are responsible for white supremists. Neither group can be held accoutable for those who would twist doctine to their own purposes.
THe Curse of CAin doctrine (regarding black people) promulgated by President Brigham Young was in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, wrong (see above about believing everything that comes out of a prophets mouth)
There is a really excellent web site that explains far better than I could about the LDS church Vis-a vis Black members.
http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html
As for racism in the church The LDS are no worse or better that the Southern Baptist Convention and many other Churchs that held racist views about black americans
This has been a lenghty post--please understand I am answering a question from my personal viewpoint. This post is not to convince anyone of the "Rightness" of my position nor do I wish anyone to try and convert me to the "rightness" of theirs. Thank You
:)-->
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WordWolf
Pages 43-44, we get a description of the Way Corps.
Those of you who were IN the corps,
how accurate is this appraisal?
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Ham
Ptooie.
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rascal
I don`t know wolf, I never made it past my app. year (3 times lol) then became corpes spouse.
All I know is that once I applied, life became pretty tough...all of a sudden ... they OWNED my friggin a$$.
I was subject to everyone`s orders, room inspections by my lc became acceptable, all of my activities were dictated, who/what I was allowed to participte in, where/who I lived with.... was expected to take/participate in any class or event.
I was required to go to extra leadership *training* at the limb....what great secrets and training did I enjoy??????
Why we were dropped off in pairs aroung the city for a little door to door witnessing!
Being app corpes meant that you were open to face meltings on a whim....because of out greater committment ... we were expected to be mature enough to handle it and understand the *love* in which it was given.
I can only speculate that it was more of the same upon entering residence.
As far as I could tell....that *greater* committment of being corpes simply meant that one was expected to be willing to put up with/ ignore/endure the outragious demands and behavior of the leaders in charge...
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diazbro
I like to refer to TWLIL as my favorite book of Way *fiction* as I never saw the utopia that was alleged to have existed at HQ or in the lives of those who were totally committed to TWI. In my opinion it was a glorified religious phamplet/tract designed for marketing purposes.
I'll say this though. It was very much a product of the time and any well-meaning, young person looking to make a difference would typically get excited when reading some of the passages though it could also be very corny in its attempts to make HQ look like the Elysian Fields.
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Ham
I wouldn't WANT to, either.
:P-->
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Ham
Yep. Now the poor sap is missing God everywhere and looking for him anywhere.
:)-->
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A la prochaine
Man oh Man...don't even know where to start with this one... but this Tim character was gone by mid 70's if I remember correctly. So it makes me wonder...???
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Ham
Ah, what a "bargain".
NOW tell me what that diploma is worth..
Ten to fifteen YEARS? I should have run away when I heard these kinds of claims..
Now if they said, "we heap ten to fifteen years of ABUSE into two short years (besides interim years)" it probably would be a little closer to the truth.
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Ham
I think I met him.
relative of an upper up in der vey I think..
couldn't stomach "leadership" even back in the good old days..
only took a short two years after this living in love lifestyle stuff..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ham, I know who you mean, but is that Doctor Who of British Science Fiction, you know the Time Lord with K-9 alias Here Tick(heretic)?
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Ham
Heh heh heh.
I actually liked that series, the longest running sci fi show, I think..
Now we just have to figure out who to cast as The Doctor's arch enemy, "The Master".
Maybe Ted Patrick. Naw, not smart enough..
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Dilva
What struck me as odd with the Corps experience is I saw many intelligent and well off people go into the Corps. By the time they graduated, they looked so shabby [except for the suits and long dresses].
Because they were instructed to be *extremely* frugal, they got their clothing by swapping with each other or by what was left behind from previous Corps folks.
I remember this one elegant person; she went in with beautiful clothing and well kept [and current] hairstyle.
I attended a meeting she held after her graduation. She was in an outfit that was at least 10 years out of style, it was too tight, and all the wrong colors for her. Her hair was in serious need of repair! She looked old.
And all the while spouting the MORE than abundant life!! This gal was a successful businesswoman who had sold all her earthly possessions to go Way Corps.
Man, talk about wielding guilt with scripture---sell all your possessions. Sheesh, that was at a particular time with Jesus, and VP ain't no Jesus!!!
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A la prochaine
Dilva,
I must agree with you...at least that's what happened to me.
After I was in the Corps...I had no money to buy anything 'up and coming', nor did I have any idea what was out there in fashion because we weren't allowed to go shopping.
We were cut off.
sigh...I can't believe I lived like this at the age of 21!!!
sigh...
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A la prochaine
WW, Mr. Hammie,
Do you think I got my point accross?
:D-->
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Oakspear
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Bramble
Oakspear:
Yup, that's the TWI we left.
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A la prochaine
Man.. this one is loaded!!!
Where does someone begin?
I've highlighted in bold what I wanted to address.
1) "the" doctor.. say no more
-->
2) he "allows" us to see...blah blah blah... Oh my
--> .. ALLOWS... man oh man... how this person has made himself so inferior to 'the' doctor or 'the' doctor made sure he stayed in his place. This seems to work for THE doctor...but not quite sure what Tim is getting outta' all of this?
3)..through 'his' eyes... now tell me.. why didn't the good ole' doctor allow others to share what they saw through their eyes? Sounds like a very one sided situation.
4)...and sometimes it's a bummer...must have been talking about them ranting and raving situations.. or maybe when Tim would stumble upon things he wasn't quite comfortable with??? hmmmmmmmmmmm???
5)...he lays it out...again, full control
6)...to transmit the commitment and dedication of the ministry...HUH??????? what about God? what about Jesus Christ? what about helping others in need? nope... i guess that wasn't TWI's agenda regarding the way corps.. it was bottom line...promote TWI!
7)...where he can't be himself... a little full of ourselves are we?
8)...osmosis...now i'm really confused?
--> osmosis: 2) process by which something is acquired by absorption. (pocket oxford dictionary)
You mean to say that all those hours spent in those classes and I could have just absorbed it osmosisly?
9)...feel...see...know...it all seems very 5 senses...sheeshh...not the way corps motto now is it?
10)...privileged...what about TWI being 'privileged' to have people willing to work for nothing and be their salespersons for free?
I'm getting sick again
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Ham
Naw, Ala, tell us how you really feel!
:D-->
Yep.. "I" did it, "I" taught, "MY" knowledge..
Tim's description is probably pretty accurate thought- "sometimes it is a BUMMER".
From the vocabulary of the sixties and early seventies, what he is saying, is sometimes ole "doc's" "medicine" results in a BAD TRIP.
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outandabout
Yeah, being Corps, yeah, that was sure great, especially after graduation and it hits you that now you're a slave to TWI for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, and if you leave you are FORSAKING GOD.
So you have to take all the crap the higher ups dish out.
Things like "How could you let THAT happen? You're Corps!" (Like when somebody else does something, somehow you're to blame, because YOU'RE CORPS.)
Yeah, it was really great, really great.
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WordWolf
I forget who it was who said they were surprised when the
corps committment they had already made-for a 4-year
program-suddenly changed into a LIFETIME COMMITTMENT while
they were IN the program....
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