Isn't it a sign of a pathological liar that they can't open their mouth without telling one lie? He was telling a story, told the truth, but it was only the truth, so he HAD to throw a lie in there somewhere. :)
"Why is it that after reading this indisputable evidence of an indisputable lie, some people still don't get that he was lying about the 1942 snowstorm too? Oh, it was a vision. Oh, it could have happened with few people noticing, no evidence anywhere. How about this: Oh, the guy fabricates snowstorms to embellish his stories, never figuring anyone would have the courage to check."
Frankly folks, that logic just doesn't wash.
No, I'm not trying to support VPW. I don't know what did or did not happen on that day in 1942. I do know that whatever happened, it was of great personal significance to VPW. He went to great lengths to have photos taken of that gas station and even acquired the window he looked out of when the building was torn down. Don't slam me on all of the details regarding it - - my point is that whatever happened that day was of great significane to him.
Frankly my dears, I never really gave a d_ _ _ about it. Wheter or not VP acutally saw snow or not meant diddly squat to me and it had little to nothing to do with my personal involvement w/TWI.
Utilizing the logic of, "he lied about one thing... why don't people get it that he lied about what he saw when noone else was around...." can be applied to people like, hmmm...
How about MOSES???
Burning bush? I didn't see no stinking bush burning. What evidence can be left of a bush burning when the "story" was that the thing WASN'T burnt by the fire?
"It was that bush, right over there, the one next to the big rock."
"Yeah right Mo. Now, You want ME to walk THROUGH the water???"
How 'bout Abraham?
"Sure Abe, you were GONNA knife your son, but just in the nick of time you saw a ram..."
"Yeah right.
There are LOTS of historical claims made by all kinds of people. Not all of them are limited to the Bible, although the Bible makes many of the most outlandish claims about all kinds of stuff.
"Sure. A guy 500 years old built a ship three stories tall as long as two football fields by himself, with the help of his three sons." Every animal just came to him and boarded, two by two in as orderly a fashion as we now do airplanes at the aitport."
Ok.
What I don't get is how: with ALL of the now documented disputing between the early factions (The Way West Vs. VPW for example) some of whom fell away from TWI, others who stayed and built the ministry "we all now hate" et. al. ... in almost a decade of even working on HQ staff ... basically NOONE questioned the validity of the snow on the gas pump thing. Now almost 20 years after the man is dead, he's a LIAR about that because he lied about other things?
All men are liars, are we not?
Love VPW if you wish. HATE him if you wish.... that is your individual call. VPW and TWI was more than his/it's indescretions. I for one would issue a word of reasonable caution regarding how far one is willing to go in villifying not only VPW but anyone.
"No evidence anywhere." simply is not enough to make a determination... one way or the other. Maybe I'm taking the comment out of context, but I think that logic should be logical. I think that if a person makes an "if - - then" type statement the comparison should make "indisputably" logical sense.
Lying to embellish a story, NEVER figuring ANYBODY would have the COURAGE to check it out - - simply makes NO logical sense. Especially in light of the reality that at one time TWI, and VPW was on the tip of basically "every" organized religion's tongue as one of the top five MOST DANGEROUS CULTS IN THE WORLD.
Wouldn't ANY author who ever wrote a book. gave a verbal quote speaking negatively about TWI... ANY religous leader in the country, basically ANY pastor who ever spoke against TWI have the courage to "check" if anybody saw ANY stinking snow that day?
Of course they would, of course they DID.
My concern is that we don't go overboard with the "... and he did THIS TOO!" syndrome. We should balance or emotional positions with true, real logic based on facts, not suppositions.
Just for the record.... I HATE any and all of the bad stuff VP did, so please don't get it twisted.
"Wouldn't ANY author who ever wrote a book. gave a verbal quote speaking negatively about TWI... ANY religous leader in the country, basically ANY pastor who ever spoke against TWI have the courage to "check" if anybody saw ANY stinking snow that day?
Of course they would, of course they DID."
Here's one author that did check the weather that famous day in 1942, his booklet was published in 1983.
[WordWolf's comments in brackets and boldface like he used to have...]
Originally posted by Raf:
"Why is it that after reading this indisputable evidence of an indisputable lie, some people still don't get that he was lying about the 1942 snowstorm too? Oh, it was a vision. Oh, it could have happened with few people noticing, no evidence anywhere. How about this: Oh, the guy fabricates snowstorms to embellish his stories, never figuring anyone would have the courage to check."
Frankly folks, that logic just doesn't wash.
[Yes it does, and I shall explain.]
No, I'm not trying to support VPW. I don't know what did or did not happen on that day in 1942. I do know that whatever happened, it was of great personal significance to VPW. He went to great lengths to have photos taken of that gas station and even acquired the window he looked out of when the building was torn down. Don't slam me on all of the details regarding it - - my point is that whatever happened that day was of great significance to him.
[So, he might have seen something then, or he may later have completely convinced HIMSELF
he had seen something, or he may have immersed himself deeply in an acted role.
We DO know his earliest accounts never MENTIONED any snow...]
Frankly my dears, I never really gave a d_ _ _ about it. Whether or not VP acutally saw snow or not meant diddly squat to me and it had little to nothing to do with my personal involvement w/TWI.
[ Yet vpw used it to justify his claim that a 1942 promise was given to him. That was so significant
that some OUTIES STILL believe that one. Thus, they believe he was a special Christian who got
special revelation and was entitled to keep that title even after committing special crimes.
Isn't that special? ]
Utilizing the logic of, "he lied about one thing... why don't people get it that he lied about what he saw when noone else was around...." can be applied to people like, hmmm...
How about MOSES???
[ No, reread the sentence.
vpw was PROVED to be a liar about the Tulsa snow. Therefore, we KNOW he lied about that one.
Check the weather reports yourself. So, we KNOW he lied about one thing.
Do you have an actual account of Moses lying about some miraculous event? ]
Burning bush? I didn't see no stinking bush burning. What evidence can be left of a bush burning when the "story" was that the thing WASN'T burnt by the fire?
"It was that bush, right over there, the one next to the big rock."
[ Big difference between "I wasn't there to confirm or disprove it happened or didn't happen"
(Moses and the burning bush)
and
"Those who were there confirmed it didn't happen"
(vpw and the Tulsa blizzard when not even a single FLAKE had fallen from the sky).]
"Yeah right Mo. Now, You want ME to walk THROUGH the water???"
How 'bout Abraham?
"Sure Abe, you were GONNA knife your son, but just in the nick of time you saw a ram..."
"Yeah right.
[ I trust my point was already made. If I didn't respect you, I'd repeat it, but I'm sure you
read it and understood the first time.]
There are LOTS of historical claims made by all kinds of people. Not all of them are limited to the Bible, although the Bible makes many of the most outlandish claims about all kinds of stuff.
"Sure. A guy 500 years old built a ship three stories tall as long as two football fields by himself, with the help of his three sons." Every animal just came to him and boarded, two by two in as orderly a fashion as we now do airplanes at the aitport."
[ The ark just COINCIDENTALLY has near-perfect design proportions, as determined centuries
later. If NOTHING else, that should draw attention. But I made the main point already.]
Ok.
What I don't get is how: with ALL of the now documented disputing between the early factions (The Way West Vs. VPW for example) some of whom fell away from TWI, others who stayed and built the ministry "we all now hate" et. al. ... in almost a decade of even working on HQ staff ... basically NO ONE questioned the validity of the snow on the gas pump thing.
[When he was alive, questioning him on the SLIGHTEST THING was verboten.
He died in 1985.
It took people at least a few years to QUESTION long enough to get to that one.
At the dawn of the internet, it didn't take, say, 45 seconds to pull a weather report from 40 years ago.
As it was, this wasn't news as of the mid-90s, which is not a surprise when you do the math.
Technology and ACCESS has much improved.
To forget this is to wonder why they didn't find his plagiarism when a simple websearch can show a lot
of it TODAY. ]
Now almost 20 years after the man is dead, he's a LIAR about that because he lied about other things?
[ He showed a pattern of proven lying about EXACTLY that sort of thing.
This was known over 10 years ago.
I myself am discussing it NOW.
You're hearing about it NOW.
This is an OLD DISCUSSION. ]
All men are liars, are we not?
Love VPW if you wish. HATE him if you wish.... that is your individual call. VPW and TWI was more than his/it's indescretions. I for one would issue a word of reasonable caution regarding how far one is willing to go in villifying not only VPW but anyone.
[Caution in documentation and discussion is good.
In fact, that's why this thread goes as slowly as it does...that's the idea. ]
"No evidence anywhere." simply is not enough to make a determination... one way or the other. Maybe I'm taking the comment out of context, but I think that logic should be logical. I think that if a person makes an "if - - then" type statement the comparison should make "indisputably" logical sense.
Lying to embellish a story, NEVER figuring ANYBODY would have the COURAGE to check it out - - simply makes NO logical sense. Especially in light of the reality that at one time TWI, and VPW was on the tip of basically "every" organized religion's tongue as one of the top five MOST DANGEROUS CULTS IN THE WORLD.
[Except-that was PROVEN to have been done in the Tulsa case.
Whether or not it was SENSIBLE to do so, THAT it was done is a matter of historical record.
Therefore your "argument" is flawed, since it concludes that documented events didn't happen. ]
Wouldn't ANY author who ever wrote a book. gave a verbal quote speaking negatively about TWI... ANY religous leader in the country, basically ANY pastor who ever spoke against TWI have the courage to "check" if anybody saw ANY stinking snow that day?
[Most were busy attacking him for DOCTRINE.
A few attacked him for the snow on the pumps.
NOBODY-and I looked when I was IN TWI-
NOBODY bothered to dig deep enough to FIND the TULSA blizzard, let alone RESEARCH IT.
So, that they did NOT check is, again, a matter of historical record.]
Of course they would, of course they DID.
[ Burden of proof.
Cite even ONE source of someone who DID such a check before 1983.
Find even ONE, I will yield the issue.
UNTIL then, don't claim they DID with zero documentation.
My concern is that we don't go overboard with the "... and he did THIS TOO!" syndrome. We should balance or emotional positions with true, real logic based on facts, not suppositions.
[[On the other hand, don't refuse to accept what he DID, either-
like lie about a Tulsa blizzard that failed to be seen by an entire convention, city,
weather bureaus, etc.[/b]]
Just for the record.... I HATE any and all of the bad stuff VP did, so please don't get it twisted.
Just to highlight a few things that WordWolf has already ably noted:
The Tulsa "snowstorm" wasn't about a vision, or revelation, or anything like that. Somebody told him on the phone that Tulsa was snowed in. This wasn't God showing him snow on the gas pumps which could have been a vision just to him.
So what happened? He called the airport (or airline) to book a flight out, and was told by angels (he suggested this once, you know) that the airport was snowed in, as well as the trains and busses. He looked out the window and was shown a vision of a blizzard, and if he casually menyioned the snow to anyone who wasn't seeing the vision, God rushed in an angel to cover...
"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out! Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time.' "Doctor punctuates his story with a rumbling laugh. He continues his account, pointing the car squarely towards the widening patch of blue sky."
====
"The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began, 'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?'"
Me,
I'm still curious that one guy at a CONVENTION can spot another guy at a CONVENTION
(presumably, with 1000-3000 guys in suits)
and not only RECOGNIZE him,
but recite his DENOMINATION.
I'm also curious vpw seems to be MISSING A NAMETAG.
I've yet to attend a convention where SOME kind of nametag wasn't required, and I've attended
a number of them, of various types.
The only time I remember recognizing someone like that at a convention, he
was dressed VERY different from everyone else.
(Full Klingon warrior dress AND carrying a guitar.)
I don't see how there are still folks that refuse to even entertain the possibility that the man just plain LIED.
Toto's pulled back the curtain.. all the world can see the naked truth..
"Angels LIED to him about the weather.." ha. :D
What I wonder though..
Precisely WHEN did he reveal this "awesome" truth?
Was TWLIL the first time.. or was it before.. if before, how long before? Late sixties? early seventies?
Perhaps this undisputed (at least at the time) claim ESTABLISHED vic as THE HEAD HONCHO, Top dog, Alpha Male of da pack, you get the idea..
Perhaps this kind of "leverage" figures in the great vey east/ vey west skirmish..
I saw a National Geographic special once.. two witchdoctors vying for position.. and the most "convincing" proof of their power was that the one guy could regurgitate handfuls of latex, claiming that he was ridding himself from the "spirits" the other witchdoctor was putting on him..
Funny how the Lord works..
I thought, hmmmm. I think I've seen all this before..
But it makes a little more sense to me.. who are the people going to believe? The guy who loves God, doing his best at the time.. or to the guy with the unchallenged claim that angels lied to him.. again, and again, and again..?
I was good friends with BH. She was a branch leader in Tulsa, or somewhere in OK when she researched the snowstorm.
She was one of only two ordained 7th corps women (the rest of us were slackers I guess!). She had great respect for VP. I remember when she told me the results of her research, and VP brushing it off. It was a great disappointment to her. She, at that time, didn't know quite what to make of it. She left TWI a couple of years later.
Also, if you read your history of the big American religious leaders, Jimmy Swaggert, Baker, Roberts, etc., they all claim to have had a vision - an annointing where God told them they were chosen to teach and lead. I have absolutely no problem with VP's made up "visions" - he was just doing what they all do. If you want to set up your own group, you must have had a communication with God that makes you special, the top alpha male.
Look at the leader of any religous cult - not just Christian - they all had some kind of special, spiritual communication - which they will teach and impart to others (if you stick around and give them your money).
It is as absurd as having to wear special glasses to decipher the writing on some gold tablets found in the hills of New York state.
It must be LDS bashing month on the forums --oh well
THe difference is that there were eyewitnesses, who saw and held the plates.
In later years at least one of these witnesses left the LDS faith.
Even while repudiating the LDS faith he steadfastly maintained that he had seen and held the plates,
There was no reason for the witnesses to lie, they gained nothing from their testimonies, neither riches nor favors. Given the climate of the 1800's vis-a-vis the LDS --it would have been much easier and safer to deny the plates existence yet they never did, not even the one who was no longer LDS
"We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses. Also Luke 11:11, where it talks about fathers giving gifts to their children: If a child asked for bread, would the earthly father give him a stone? He just went over and over those things, used those verses in Luke hundreds of times to get that fear out of me. He just drove it home to me-God wouldn't give a lousy gift. We worked till 3pm. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn't know the language. It was like a burning light. It just cooked me on the inside. Such a flood came out. For the next half hour, Stiles had me speak and stop, just start and stop. Then he left. But I went on all night-speaking in tongues, praying in my understanding, reading from the Word. I was up all night, higher than a kite, I never ate. I couldn't sleep. I was so thrilled, so overjoyed and burning. And that has been the greatest night of my life.
Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet."
================
Skipping the last sentence-which was gratuituous-we have an interesting event.
I have no difficulty believing this was EXACTLY what happened.
vpw had demonstrated a "remedial" level of spiritual facility,
so Stiles takes him from the very basics thru speaking in tongues.
Stiles then makes sure the job is a thorough one, and that vpw is able
to proceed without him.
vpw is delighted and excited.
So many Christians have felt on top of the world at that time.
In fact,
knowing how special and significant this is to Christians,
it's obvious in hindsight why he tied so special an experience to his ORGANIZATION.
This way, he was able to get people to connect the two events, and get them
beholden to him.
"Well, it was because of this class that I spoke in tongues,
so without it I never would have spoken in tongues,
because God is that small.
Therefore, I owe the organization stuff and can come with excuses
You meet this guy, wouldn't one of the first topics of conversation be the weather???
I mean that is one of the tried and true openings when meeting a stranger, safe, a moment to get the feel of another person, especially the case after a blizzard of such magnitude--the weather would have been on everyones lips.
Second ---and I'm not saying this to step on toes--I offer it to show why I find the whole episode from snow to an all nighter questionable.
I don't subscribe to the belief that we can turn Speaking in tongues on and off like a tap.
This manisfestation is IMO for the specific purpose of being able to communicate with another who doesn't speak the same language when God deems it necessary.
So I have a lot of trouble believing in VPW's account, or if in fact , evening went as stated, believing that anyone truly operated this manifestation--because there was no need.
Yeah, session 12 in PFAL was for me the moment I truly realized that I didn't "belong" because I never could get behind SIT as taught in TWI
So many Christians have felt on top of the world at that time.
In fact,
knowing how special and significant this is to Christians,
it's obvious in hindsight why he tied so special an experience to his ORGANIZATION.
This way, he was able to get people to connect the two events, and get them
beholden to him.
"Well, it was because of this class that I spoke in tongues,
so without it I never would have spoken in tongues,
because God is that small.
Therefore, I owe the organization stuff and can come with excuses
to turn a blind eye whenever they do wrong."
Yup, I quite agree WW. Except that I don't think God so small. But if in subscribing to 'if not for this minitry' places God in a box, then I guess that I have done thought God so small. It's just that now I think God so very much bigger.
But in the subscription of 'if not for this ministry' thingy... If it weren't for the ministry, none of us would be here at GSCafe. And I mean that in the goodest of ways.
Maureen. I never spoke in tongues before twi. After piffle I did. I still do speak in tongues. I never received the burning, the overjoyed stay up all night excitement like VPW. I do turn it on and off like a light. I even sing in tongues when I don't know the words to the song. It doesn't sound like any language that I've ever heard. Perhaps it's tongues of angels rather than men, perhaps it's jibberish cuz it don't do anyone no good but me. Could I have ever been taught to speak in tongues elsewhere, hmmm, probably.
All this makes me wonder why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles.
It was a Sunday morning in a Free Methodist church and all of a sudden I was singing inside my head along with the choir in a language I've never heard before or since. I felt like my whole being was going to float up from the floor and explode while all the while I was in this cocoon of white and gold light. It was the most uplifting experience I have ever felt in my entire life. I heard that language in my head because it was spirit talking to spirit--I had no need to communicate with a non -english speaking person
Nothing in TWI ever even remotely came near to that experience.
Do I believe you when you say you speak in tongues yea, I believe the rest who say it was real for them too. What I don't believe is that it had anything to do with Stiles or VPW or TWI, It just happened to you while you were in TWI. A BIG difference. SIT is from God at His will and discretion. I can sure see where you would need it in Iraq for comfort and support, I can see where you would need it in TWI to sustain you.
I know a young LDS woman who served a mission in Russia. She tells of the time she went to a home to have discussions with an extended family. Amoung the members was a very elderly woman who spoke no English yet followed the discussions even when the missionary spoke little or no Russian. Explained her family, "she always hears what the missionaries say in Russian no matter what language they speak" SO yes I do believe SIT is very much an active manifestation for whomever GOd so decides--- not some formula expounded by VPW in piffle
I've never had an "uplifting" experience as such while singing in tongues nor speaking in tongues but I do believe you had such an experience. What you experienced may have been 'genuine' speaking in tongues and what I do - pure jibberish. I don't know, I never got a handle on interpretation of tongues nor prophecy either.
I've not thought it very useful to speak it to a non-english speaker because I wouldn't understand what I was saying. What use would it be to join a conversation in a language that you didn't understand?
I find standing next to a buddy who isn't shaking in his boots a heck of a lot more comforting than speaking in tongues makes me feel.
Yup, I quite agree WW. Except that I don't think God so small. But if in subscribing to 'if not for this minitry' places God in a box, then I guess that I have done thought God so small. It's just that now I think God so very much bigger.
But in the subscription of 'if not for this ministry' thingy... If it weren't for the ministry, none of us would be here at GSCafe. And I mean that in the goodest of ways.
Maureen. I never spoke in tongues before twi. After piffle I did. I still do speak in tongues. I never received the burning, the overjoyed stay up all night excitement like VPW. I do turn it on and off like a light. I even sing in tongues when I don't know the words to the song. It doesn't sound like any language that I've ever heard. Perhaps it's tongues of angels rather than men, perhaps it's jibberish cuz it don't do anyone no good but me. Could I have ever been taught to speak in tongues elsewhere, hmmm, probably.
All this makes me wonder why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles.
Well,
that was my point.
YOU think God is so very much bigger, NOW.
So do I.
Not only were many, many, MANY people convinced otherwise back when,
now, after all vpw's crimes (or at least many of them)
have been exposed,
some people STILL make that kind of vapid claim.
Frankly, it's the ridiculous presence of that kind of claim NOW that made me notice the connection.
I still say vpw's big skill was in MARKETING.
He relabelled a Christian experience and made it out
to be a twi experience,
AND charged money for it.
As to why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles,
that's an easy one.
Neither Stiles nor Leonard ever required allegiance to themselves or any organization.
They were interested in blessing the greatest # of Christians possible in the time available.
The "class allegiance" thing was something vpw insistituted to guarantee himself
'repeat customers'-selling them materials and classes, and later, giving 10% of their income.
"Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet."
"You see, learning is a process. You don't learn overnight. The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for. There's not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there's no one I can't lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it. No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them."
Well, aren't WE special?
pg-204.
"When I came back from Tulsa, Mal George and his wife, Jan, were the first ones I led into receiving the holy spirit. They live in New Knoxville now, both of them teachers, have seven kids. They stood with the ministry over twenty years now, never wavered."
You don't learn overnight. Don't learn what exactly?
God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them."
I know something you don't, nyah, nyah. But if you give me 10% of your wealth I'll tell ya.
No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive.
So I'll teach lcm to shove it down your throats while screaming obscenities (that you wouldn't allow your children to utter) at you.
No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them."
God seldom allows you to teach (a maybe statement) versus I've never taught (an absolute statement). Sounds like vpw was either trying to outdo God OR vpw was confessing that he wasn't the teacher he said he was.
I'm not saying they don't exist but I've never met Mal George nor his wife Jan, have you?
Sorry, Bro Speed. I met the Georges. Nice folks. They were well known around HQ.
Sunesis, I found it interesting that BH wasn't swayed to leave when she was kidnapped and deprogramming was attempted, but she wasn't swayed to stay by her later ordination, once VPW blew off her research into the snowstorm.
Like her, when I got the evidence first-hand that all was not right in Way-world, I had to make a decision. It took me about two years to make it, too.
please don't let crass people drag you into diverting the thread.
We've been on-topic all the way until now, approximately.
Sorry wolf
I was trying to make the case that sometimes far-fetched ideas seem to plausible to people. Snow on the gas pumps, special glasses to see golden plates.
Templelady, eyewitnesses do lie and lie often, why? To obtain something or to impose their will on others. Were you not in TWI?
That's where forensics comes in. Physical evidence is so much more convincing than one man's word.
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penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
Belle
Isn't it a sign of a pathological liar that they can't open their mouth without telling one lie? He was telling a story, told the truth, but it was only the truth, so he HAD to throw a lie in there somewhere. :)
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WordWolf
That certainly sounds characteristic.
A typical statement of serial liars is that a truth isn't properly dressed until it wears a lie.
Since the DSM-IV has no definition for "Pathological liar",
I can't link to it.
I CAN link to "Antisocial Personality Disorder" and "Narcissistic Personality Disorder", however.
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/apd.htm
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm
We can discuss them both for fun-I'll requote this when we get to the end of the book comments.
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HCW
Originally posted by Raf:
"Why is it that after reading this indisputable evidence of an indisputable lie, some people still don't get that he was lying about the 1942 snowstorm too? Oh, it was a vision. Oh, it could have happened with few people noticing, no evidence anywhere. How about this: Oh, the guy fabricates snowstorms to embellish his stories, never figuring anyone would have the courage to check."
Frankly folks, that logic just doesn't wash.
No, I'm not trying to support VPW. I don't know what did or did not happen on that day in 1942. I do know that whatever happened, it was of great personal significance to VPW. He went to great lengths to have photos taken of that gas station and even acquired the window he looked out of when the building was torn down. Don't slam me on all of the details regarding it - - my point is that whatever happened that day was of great significane to him.
Frankly my dears, I never really gave a d_ _ _ about it. Wheter or not VP acutally saw snow or not meant diddly squat to me and it had little to nothing to do with my personal involvement w/TWI.
Utilizing the logic of, "he lied about one thing... why don't people get it that he lied about what he saw when noone else was around...." can be applied to people like, hmmm...
How about MOSES???
Burning bush? I didn't see no stinking bush burning. What evidence can be left of a bush burning when the "story" was that the thing WASN'T burnt by the fire?
"It was that bush, right over there, the one next to the big rock."
"Yeah right Mo. Now, You want ME to walk THROUGH the water???"
How 'bout Abraham?
"Sure Abe, you were GONNA knife your son, but just in the nick of time you saw a ram..."
"Yeah right.
There are LOTS of historical claims made by all kinds of people. Not all of them are limited to the Bible, although the Bible makes many of the most outlandish claims about all kinds of stuff.
"Sure. A guy 500 years old built a ship three stories tall as long as two football fields by himself, with the help of his three sons." Every animal just came to him and boarded, two by two in as orderly a fashion as we now do airplanes at the aitport."
Ok.
What I don't get is how: with ALL of the now documented disputing between the early factions (The Way West Vs. VPW for example) some of whom fell away from TWI, others who stayed and built the ministry "we all now hate" et. al. ... in almost a decade of even working on HQ staff ... basically NOONE questioned the validity of the snow on the gas pump thing. Now almost 20 years after the man is dead, he's a LIAR about that because he lied about other things?
All men are liars, are we not?
Love VPW if you wish. HATE him if you wish.... that is your individual call. VPW and TWI was more than his/it's indescretions. I for one would issue a word of reasonable caution regarding how far one is willing to go in villifying not only VPW but anyone.
"No evidence anywhere." simply is not enough to make a determination... one way or the other. Maybe I'm taking the comment out of context, but I think that logic should be logical. I think that if a person makes an "if - - then" type statement the comparison should make "indisputably" logical sense.
Lying to embellish a story, NEVER figuring ANYBODY would have the COURAGE to check it out - - simply makes NO logical sense. Especially in light of the reality that at one time TWI, and VPW was on the tip of basically "every" organized religion's tongue as one of the top five MOST DANGEROUS CULTS IN THE WORLD.
Wouldn't ANY author who ever wrote a book. gave a verbal quote speaking negatively about TWI... ANY religous leader in the country, basically ANY pastor who ever spoke against TWI have the courage to "check" if anybody saw ANY stinking snow that day?
Of course they would, of course they DID.
My concern is that we don't go overboard with the "... and he did THIS TOO!" syndrome. We should balance or emotional positions with true, real logic based on facts, not suppositions.
Just for the record.... I HATE any and all of the bad stuff VP did, so please don't get it twisted.
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Outin88.
HCW said;
"Wouldn't ANY author who ever wrote a book. gave a verbal quote speaking negatively about TWI... ANY religous leader in the country, basically ANY pastor who ever spoke against TWI have the courage to "check" if anybody saw ANY stinking snow that day?
Of course they would, of course they DID."
Here's one author that did check the weather that famous day in 1942, his booklet was published in 1983.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_vcchap1-2.htm
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WordWolf
[WordWolf's comments in brackets and boldface like he used to have...]
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Oakspear
Just to highlight a few things that WordWolf has already ably noted:
The Tulsa "snowstorm" wasn't about a vision, or revelation, or anything like that. Somebody told him on the phone that Tulsa was snowed in. This wasn't God showing him snow on the gas pumps which could have been a vision just to him.
So what happened? He called the airport (or airline) to book a flight out, and was told by angels (he suggested this once, you know) that the airport was snowed in, as well as the trains and busses. He looked out the window and was shown a vision of a blizzard, and if he casually menyioned the snow to anyone who wasn't seeing the vision, God rushed in an angel to cover...
Yeah, it IS absurd, isn't it?
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templelady
Oak,
In this instance I don't know if absurd is the right word
I think deceitful is probably better
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WordWolf
"The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees [Fahrenheit], and the overnight
low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma'
show only 5/10 an inch of snow in Dec 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec 20. NEITHER date concurs with
Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSSES AND TRAINS.
Way Corps graduate Barries Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention,
December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by 'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed
at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.) Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport
do NOT record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts
by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called
the airport, train station and bus station. (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him
about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!)"
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def59
It is as absurd as having to wear special glasses to decipher the writing on some gold tablets found in the hills of New York state.
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WordWolf
Here it is from vpw himself again...
"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out! Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time.' "Doctor punctuates his story with a rumbling laugh. He continues his account, pointing the car squarely towards the widening patch of blue sky."
====
"The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began, 'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?'"
Me,
I'm still curious that one guy at a CONVENTION can spot another guy at a CONVENTION
(presumably, with 1000-3000 guys in suits)
and not only RECOGNIZE him,
but recite his DENOMINATION.
I'm also curious vpw seems to be MISSING A NAMETAG.
I've yet to attend a convention where SOME kind of nametag wasn't required, and I've attended
a number of them, of various types.
The only time I remember recognizing someone like that at a convention, he
was dressed VERY different from everyone else.
(Full Klingon warrior dress AND carrying a guitar.)
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Ham
I don't see how there are still folks that refuse to even entertain the possibility that the man just plain LIED.
Toto's pulled back the curtain.. all the world can see the naked truth..
"Angels LIED to him about the weather.." ha. :D
What I wonder though..
Precisely WHEN did he reveal this "awesome" truth?
Was TWLIL the first time.. or was it before.. if before, how long before? Late sixties? early seventies?
Perhaps this undisputed (at least at the time) claim ESTABLISHED vic as THE HEAD HONCHO, Top dog, Alpha Male of da pack, you get the idea..
Perhaps this kind of "leverage" figures in the great vey east/ vey west skirmish..
I saw a National Geographic special once.. two witchdoctors vying for position.. and the most "convincing" proof of their power was that the one guy could regurgitate handfuls of latex, claiming that he was ridding himself from the "spirits" the other witchdoctor was putting on him..
Funny how the Lord works..
I thought, hmmmm. I think I've seen all this before..
But it makes a little more sense to me.. who are the people going to believe? The guy who loves God, doing his best at the time.. or to the guy with the unchallenged claim that angels lied to him.. again, and again, and again..?
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Sunesis
I was good friends with BH. She was a branch leader in Tulsa, or somewhere in OK when she researched the snowstorm.
She was one of only two ordained 7th corps women (the rest of us were slackers I guess!). She had great respect for VP. I remember when she told me the results of her research, and VP brushing it off. It was a great disappointment to her. She, at that time, didn't know quite what to make of it. She left TWI a couple of years later.
Also, if you read your history of the big American religious leaders, Jimmy Swaggert, Baker, Roberts, etc., they all claim to have had a vision - an annointing where God told them they were chosen to teach and lead. I have absolutely no problem with VP's made up "visions" - he was just doing what they all do. If you want to set up your own group, you must have had a communication with God that makes you special, the top alpha male.
Look at the leader of any religous cult - not just Christian - they all had some kind of special, spiritual communication - which they will teach and impart to others (if you stick around and give them your money).
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templelady
It must be LDS bashing month on the forums --oh well
THe difference is that there were eyewitnesses, who saw and held the plates.
In later years at least one of these witnesses left the LDS faith.
Even while repudiating the LDS faith he steadfastly maintained that he had seen and held the plates,
There was no reason for the witnesses to lie, they gained nothing from their testimonies, neither riches nor favors. Given the climate of the 1800's vis-a-vis the LDS --it would have been much easier and safer to deny the plates existence yet they never did, not even the one who was no longer LDS
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WordWolf
Templelady,
please don't let crass people drag you into diverting the thread.
We've been on-topic all the way until now, approximately.
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WordWolf
"We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses. Also Luke 11:11, where it talks about fathers giving gifts to their children: If a child asked for bread, would the earthly father give him a stone? He just went over and over those things, used those verses in Luke hundreds of times to get that fear out of me. He just drove it home to me-God wouldn't give a lousy gift. We worked till 3pm. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn't know the language. It was like a burning light. It just cooked me on the inside. Such a flood came out. For the next half hour, Stiles had me speak and stop, just start and stop. Then he left. But I went on all night-speaking in tongues, praying in my understanding, reading from the Word. I was up all night, higher than a kite, I never ate. I couldn't sleep. I was so thrilled, so overjoyed and burning. And that has been the greatest night of my life.
Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet."
================
Skipping the last sentence-which was gratuituous-we have an interesting event.
I have no difficulty believing this was EXACTLY what happened.
vpw had demonstrated a "remedial" level of spiritual facility,
so Stiles takes him from the very basics thru speaking in tongues.
Stiles then makes sure the job is a thorough one, and that vpw is able
to proceed without him.
vpw is delighted and excited.
So many Christians have felt on top of the world at that time.
In fact,
knowing how special and significant this is to Christians,
it's obvious in hindsight why he tied so special an experience to his ORGANIZATION.
This way, he was able to get people to connect the two events, and get them
beholden to him.
"Well, it was because of this class that I spoke in tongues,
so without it I never would have spoken in tongues,
because God is that small.
Therefore, I owe the organization stuff and can come with excuses
to turn a blind eye whenever they do wrong."
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templelady
You are correct Wordwolf
I shall do better
Back to topic
The meeting with Stiles it what gets to me
You meet this guy, wouldn't one of the first topics of conversation be the weather???
I mean that is one of the tried and true openings when meeting a stranger, safe, a moment to get the feel of another person, especially the case after a blizzard of such magnitude--the weather would have been on everyones lips.
Second ---and I'm not saying this to step on toes--I offer it to show why I find the whole episode from snow to an all nighter questionable.
I don't subscribe to the belief that we can turn Speaking in tongues on and off like a tap.
This manisfestation is IMO for the specific purpose of being able to communicate with another who doesn't speak the same language when God deems it necessary.
So I have a lot of trouble believing in VPW's account, or if in fact , evening went as stated, believing that anyone truly operated this manifestation--because there was no need.
Yeah, session 12 in PFAL was for me the moment I truly realized that I didn't "belong" because I never could get behind SIT as taught in TWI
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Brother Speed
Yup, I quite agree WW. Except that I don't think God so small. But if in subscribing to 'if not for this minitry' places God in a box, then I guess that I have done thought God so small. It's just that now I think God so very much bigger.
But in the subscription of 'if not for this ministry' thingy... If it weren't for the ministry, none of us would be here at GSCafe. And I mean that in the goodest of ways.
Maureen. I never spoke in tongues before twi. After piffle I did. I still do speak in tongues. I never received the burning, the overjoyed stay up all night excitement like VPW. I do turn it on and off like a light. I even sing in tongues when I don't know the words to the song. It doesn't sound like any language that I've ever heard. Perhaps it's tongues of angels rather than men, perhaps it's jibberish cuz it don't do anyone no good but me. Could I have ever been taught to speak in tongues elsewhere, hmmm, probably.
All this makes me wonder why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles.
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templelady
GOOD MORNING IRAQ :)
I sang in tongues once--many years before Piffle.
It was a Sunday morning in a Free Methodist church and all of a sudden I was singing inside my head along with the choir in a language I've never heard before or since. I felt like my whole being was going to float up from the floor and explode while all the while I was in this cocoon of white and gold light. It was the most uplifting experience I have ever felt in my entire life. I heard that language in my head because it was spirit talking to spirit--I had no need to communicate with a non -english speaking person
Nothing in TWI ever even remotely came near to that experience.
Do I believe you when you say you speak in tongues yea, I believe the rest who say it was real for them too. What I don't believe is that it had anything to do with Stiles or VPW or TWI, It just happened to you while you were in TWI. A BIG difference. SIT is from God at His will and discretion. I can sure see where you would need it in Iraq for comfort and support, I can see where you would need it in TWI to sustain you.
I know a young LDS woman who served a mission in Russia. She tells of the time she went to a home to have discussions with an extended family. Amoung the members was a very elderly woman who spoke no English yet followed the discussions even when the missionary spoke little or no Russian. Explained her family, "she always hears what the missionaries say in Russian no matter what language they speak" SO yes I do believe SIT is very much an active manifestation for whomever GOd so decides--- not some formula expounded by VPW in piffle
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Brother Speed
GOOD MORNING ANCHORAGE! :D
Maureen,
I've never had an "uplifting" experience as such while singing in tongues nor speaking in tongues but I do believe you had such an experience. What you experienced may have been 'genuine' speaking in tongues and what I do - pure jibberish. I don't know, I never got a handle on interpretation of tongues nor prophecy either.
I've not thought it very useful to speak it to a non-english speaker because I wouldn't understand what I was saying. What use would it be to join a conversation in a language that you didn't understand?
I find standing next to a buddy who isn't shaking in his boots a heck of a lot more comforting than speaking in tongues makes me feel.
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WordWolf
Well,
that was my point.
YOU think God is so very much bigger, NOW.
So do I.
Not only were many, many, MANY people convinced otherwise back when,
now, after all vpw's crimes (or at least many of them)
have been exposed,
some people STILL make that kind of vapid claim.
Frankly, it's the ridiculous presence of that kind of claim NOW that made me notice the connection.
I still say vpw's big skill was in MARKETING.
He relabelled a Christian experience and made it out
to be a twi experience,
AND charged money for it.
As to why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles,
that's an easy one.
Neither Stiles nor Leonard ever required allegiance to themselves or any organization.
They were interested in blessing the greatest # of Christians possible in the time available.
The "class allegiance" thing was something vpw insistituted to guarantee himself
'repeat customers'-selling them materials and classes, and later, giving 10% of their income.
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WordWolf
"Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet."
"You see, learning is a process. You don't learn overnight. The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for. There's not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there's no one I can't lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it. No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them."
Well, aren't WE special?
pg-204.
"When I came back from Tulsa, Mal George and his wife, Jan, were the first ones I led into receiving the holy spirit. They live in New Knoxville now, both of them teachers, have seven kids. They stood with the ministry over twenty years now, never wavered."
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Brother Speed
You don't learn overnight. Don't learn what exactly?
God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them."
I know something you don't, nyah, nyah. But if you give me 10% of your wealth I'll tell ya.
No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive.
So I'll teach lcm to shove it down your throats while screaming obscenities (that you wouldn't allow your children to utter) at you.
No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them."
God seldom allows you to teach (a maybe statement) versus I've never taught (an absolute statement). Sounds like vpw was either trying to outdo God OR vpw was confessing that he wasn't the teacher he said he was.
I'm not saying they don't exist but I've never met Mal George nor his wife Jan, have you?
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shazdancer
Sorry, Bro Speed. I met the Georges. Nice folks. They were well known around HQ.
Sunesis, I found it interesting that BH wasn't swayed to leave when she was kidnapped and deprogramming was attempted, but she wasn't swayed to stay by her later ordination, once VPW blew off her research into the snowstorm.
Like her, when I got the evidence first-hand that all was not right in Way-world, I had to make a decision. It took me about two years to make it, too.
Regards,
Shaz
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def59
Sorry wolf
I was trying to make the case that sometimes far-fetched ideas seem to plausible to people. Snow on the gas pumps, special glasses to see golden plates.
Templelady, eyewitnesses do lie and lie often, why? To obtain something or to impose their will on others. Were you not in TWI?
That's where forensics comes in. Physical evidence is so much more convincing than one man's word.
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