"the Way:Living in Wonderland"

[WordWolf]

Note to self:

do some work on the "William Branham" connection before this thread's done.

[WordWolf]

E. Stanley Jones....

Seems he was the real deal.

He also was the author of "the Way" (copyright 1946)

and "Abundant Living" (copyright 1935).

"Victorious Living" (copyright 1936).

http://www.vaxxine.com/eves/jones.htm

http://www.aabibliography.com/aahtml13/esjones.html

[WordWolf]

Albert Cliffe, on the other hand....

vpw has criticized ministers for teaching the dead were alive,

but somehow missed that Albert Cliffe taught that very thing

and credited them for some of his writing.

"Many of the subjects I have given in my Bible class have been dictated to me by my loved ones

long since passed on..."

Cliffe is one of his main sources for the so-called "Law" of Believing.

Cliffe wrote the books

"Let Go and Let God",(copyright 1951)

and "Lessons in Successful Living."(copyright 1953)

and "Signposts" (copyright 1949)

(His magazine was also later called "Signposts".)

Chapters in "Let Go and Let God" include

"There is Magic in Believing"

"The Law of Cause and Effect"

Chapters in "Lessons in Successful Living" include

"Spiritual Healing"

"Positive and Negative Thinking"

and

"TITHES AND THE LAW OF PROSPERITY"

Those of you looking for the tithing source can now mark this off your scorecard.

[WordWolf]

pg-193, Amil Schaffner teaches him some stuff.

"There was another person from our congregation in Van Wert. I was working the Word, putting it together, and he taught me a lot. I knew there was so much to the Holy Spirit field, but I was just beginning to see it. His name was Amil Schaffner. He was my hunting buddy and the man who taught me great love, prayer and humility."

Supposedly, A.S. spoke in tongues once as a child, and was told it wasn't of God.

pg-194.

"He shared these things with me over a period of time. But I was working the Word in the Holy Spirit field at the time. Certain events happened in my life leading me to receive the holy spirit. And the night I led him into receiving the holy spirit he just cried like a baby. He cried, 'My God, why? Why do I have to come to this knowledge of the truth at the very end of my life, when I could have enjoyed it all along since I was a boy?' "

We're almost to the part where he drops a bunch of names about the holy spirit field..

Comments?

[WordWolf]

But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?

Here we go...pg-196.

"I guess that day was the second most important event in my life-after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist's office in Payne-the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I'd tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I'd gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can't remember them all."

"I'd asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit."

pg-197, Rufus Mosley prays for vpw, but no dice.

"I'm full, but I can't give it to you, and I don't know why."

"The day after Rufus Mosley said those words to me, a piece of mail came regarding a Full Gospel Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, all the great names were going to be there, including a would-be-rising star in Pentecostalism-Oral Roberts. By then, I'd had it. I wasn't even going to go. I don't know what made me change my mind exactly. But I said to Father, I'd go, but it would be the last time; and if I did not receive, I'd leave. I said: there most be something wrong. I was sick and tired of looking, but I made up my mind I'd go this one last time. That was the winter of 1951."

Folks?

[Oakspear]

I don't get it. There were groups speaking in tongues at this time, evidenced by the people who Wierwille said "couldn't give it to him". What wasn't Wierwille getting that these other folks got? Was he saying that all the others were counterfeits?

[WordWolf]

I don't get it. There were groups speaking in tongues at this time, evidenced by the people who Wierwille said "couldn't give it to him". What wasn't Wierwille getting that these other folks got? Was he saying that all the others were counterfeits?

*thinks*

Here's how I see it right now....

vpw MEANT to say that the others were counterfeits.

However, even he knew Rufus Mosley was real and it didn't take with Rufus.

We know it finally worked with Stiles, and Stiles spent HOURS with him,

going over and over and over stuff, THEN walking him thru.

Since others didn't seem to need this (Rufus was SURPRISED it didn't work),

I think the only logical conclusion was that vpw was the spiritual equivalent

of a REMEDIAL STUDENT.

Stiles needed to give him private tutoring because he wasn't able to keep

up with the rest of the class.

[WordWolf]

BTW,

this marks the THIRD, count 'em, THIRD time

he's said he was going to quit.

Twice in 1942, once in 1951.

[WordWolf]

"The day after Rufus Mosley said those words to me, a piece of mail came regarding a Full Gospel Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, all the great names were going to be there, including a would-be-rising star in Pentecostalism-Oral Roberts. By then, I'd had it. I wasn't even going to go. I don't know what made me change my mind exactly. But I said to Father, I'd go, but it would be the last time; and if I did not receive, I'd leave. I said: there most be something wrong. I was sick and tired of looking, but I made up my mind I'd go this one last time. That was the winter of 1951."

pg-198, a bunch of guys agreed to pray for him to get tongues, so they prayed for him...

"and finally one of them said 'Speak another language.' So I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn't know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak in another language. So I did. I spoke in Hebrew-quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it. But in my heart, I knew I wasn't speaking in tongues. You see, they'd just told me to speak in another language; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said 'another language' and I spoke another language."

Although this fits neatly with his established pattern of defying authority by hewing close to the LETTER of an instruction and mutilating its SPIRIT, this entire story strikes me as more of an afterthought, an "I WISH I'd thought of this at the time" story. If they were tuned in, they'd have known he was faking. Plus, Hebrew and Greek are not exactly unknown languages to Christians.

Then again, maybe they said to themselves,

'he's a Christian-he surely wouldn't LIE to us or try to DECEIVE us.'

(Some other people made that mistake, after all...)

Further, his degree was in "homiletics"

or "preaching", NOT "Bible languages" or the like. Odd that he seemed to think it was later in life,

judging from his homiletics...

Either way, I find this a persistent character flaw that he's bragging about- ANOTHER persistent character flaw.

[WordWolf]

Testify, WW!

Lessee, he was 24 years old, already has a wife and child to support, just out of college, and he ticks off his first pastorate by teaching nothing but the one thing they said not to teach on... real responsible.

Then only one year later, he's frustrated?

I also got a kick out of his "pretending" to speak in tongues by speaking Greek, then Hebrew. We'd all heard how fluent Wierwille was in those languages, he must've really fooled them...

And by the bye, his name-dropping, embellishment of the facts (lying), low frustration tolerance and looking for the easiest way to success are typical behavior for people with narcissistic personality.

[frank123lol]

Why oh why was he (wierwille) gonna quit so many times? Did he say it for smpathy?Or to show how important to God hence to us he was? What an ego,how could we have believed such crap?

[templelady]

"and finally one of them said 'Speak another language.'

But isn't this EXACTLY how they taught us to SIT in "piffle"???

They told me to just to start speaking

So if VPW admitted he just 'faked" it what about the rest of us who felt compelled to "perform" who "faked" it???

I've spoken in tongues but not in TWI so I know the experience IS real.

But I also know that I and many others just burbled nonsense in TWI

[WordWolf]

Why oh why was he (wierwille) gonna quit so many times? Did he say it for smpathy?Or to show how important to God hence to us he was? What an ego,how could we have believed such crap?

I'm still wondering about that myself.

Was he really ready to quit a lot,

or did he just say that?

I suspect he really was ready to quit.

I also remember hearing him teach on what Jesus said about committment,

and "no man, having put his hand to the plow, having turned back,"

is worthy of being a leader.

[WordWolf]

And, we're up to the second snow job!<BR>pg-198. vpw was fed up with the meeting, and got ready to leave.

"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-

there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!

Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time.' "Doctor punctuates his story with a rumbling laugh. He continues his account, pointing the car squarely towards the widening patch of blue sky."

"The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began, 'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?' I said, 'Yes, but it was a da*n lie.' Then he said he knew I was dam*ed because I cussed. That ended our conversation. Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9am.' I thought,

'Women never tell the truth.' But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her. I got to the place she said at 9am, and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He'd com in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we gointo the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch. So that's what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself,

'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'

I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk- we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I picked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, 'Honey, I'm going with VP.' She said something to him like, 'How long will you be?' And he said, 'That's none of your business.' That was it,

and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her."

I tell you,

that just gets more and more prominent the more I read it....

[Brother Speed]

Hrmmm...

Women never tell the truth.

So, when vpw asked Dorothea to marry him, she must have said in so many words NO, because hey, women never tell the truth.

And then later some woman teach vpw everything about the human body...and he believes her. But, But, But, women never tell the truth.

So why then in the motorcoach did vpw slip mickeys in drinks to have his way with women? If the woman says no, she's obviously lying because, women never tell the truth.

Ya know? I think any work of vpw would fit like a hand in a glove if vpw would have just changed one word so that this sentence would read "I never tell the truth."

[WordWolf]

*Women are all liars*....*Women aren`t gonna be around when HE speaks in tongue*....JE Stiles was inexcusably rude to his wife, thus rising him up 99% in vp`s opinion.... whatta guy!

Now THERES a guy I wanna learn everything pertaining to life and Godliness from.....That story ALWAYS bugged me ...grrrr

For those who think vpw was this awesome man of God, compare his words on women to how Jesus treated women.

Then see who is the absent one.

[templelady]

It was all about POWER and HATE

It took me a long time to figure it out--

Didn't really crystalize until this thread

VPW didn't have the fame and success he felt was his due, and what he felt was his "due" was grossly exagerated in his own mind... ...

Even after TWI was growing and he wes revered as "the teacher" It still wasn''t as much as he felt was his due.

He was constantly name droppping, constantly inflating his own importance ie.-going to one of the inumerable inagural balls in Washington DC became "I was invited to THE inagural ball"

I have never heard much about his parents--or if I did it was so little and so ubiquetous that it didn't register

I think above all VPW was a man who HATED women. He believed that women were a millstone around a man's neck. They were not to be trusted, liars, maniplators, etc. that had to be controlled.

The underlying psychology for these beliefs will never be known but I suspect that his mother was very domineering. [At least that is my attempt at pop psychology for the evening] :blink:

What he did to women was okay because they "deserved" it as punishment for their "sins" . Sins which existed in VPW 's twisted thought processes.

No wonder he surrounded himself with men who thought like him, no wonder domestic abuse and abuse of others was so prevalent in TWI. If you were female you were fair game, and if you were a man who supported and sustained women you were perceived as less of a man for doing so. Couple this with your very salvation being measured by how well you followed "Dr's" words and you had a cocktail tailor made for not only abuse on a grand scale but the perpetuation of same.

Edited October 2, 2005 by templelady

[WordWolf]

It was all about POWER and HATE

It took me a long time to figure it out--

Didn't really crystalize until this thread.

[i'll agree about POWER. I'm dubious, at present, that it was about HATE.]

VPW didn't have the fame and success he felt was his due, and what he felt was his "due" was grossly exaggerated in his own mind... ...

Even after TWI was growing and he was revered as "the teacher", It still wasn''t as much as he felt was his due.

He was constantly name droppping, constantly inflating his own importance ie.-going to one of the innumerable inaugural balls in Washington DC became "I was invited to THE inaugural ball".

[Yes, an inflated sense of entitlement is one sign of sociopathic personality disorder. I agree on all of

this.]

I think above all VPW was a man who HATED women. He believed that women were a millstone around a man's neck. They were not to be trusted, liars, manipulators, etc. that had to be controlled.

The underlying psychology for these beliefs will never be known but I suspect that his mother was very domineering. [At least that is my attempt at pop psychology for the evening]:blink:

What he did to women was okay because they "deserved" it as punishment for their "sins" . Sins which existed in VPW 's twisted thought processes.

[That's possible, but if so, why did SPECIFIC women get a lot of credit?

Rosalind Rinker was lauded, and a few others.

I think that if he truly HATED women that this wouldn't happen.

I think he UNDERESTIMATED them, and considered them DOMESTICS and TOOLS in his mind-

good for the kitchen, and as sex objects, and for keeping silence otherwise.

I think a HATRED is a leap-but looking down on them is borne out by evidence.]

No wonder he surrounded himself with men who thought like him, no wonder domestic abuse and abuse of others was so prevalent in TWI. If you were female you were fair game, and if you were a man who supported and sustained women you were perceived as less of a man for doing so. Couple this with your very salvation being measured by how well you followed "Dr's" words and you had a cocktail tailor made for not only abuse on a grand scale but the perpetuation of same.

[i'll agree he enabled and subtly encouraged wife-abuse (but not HUSBAND-ABUSE),

and looking down on, and abuse of others.

I think this was not borne of HATE, but of INDIFFERENCE.

If women were not tools, they were invisible.]

Edited October 2, 2005 by WordWolf

[templelady]

I don't think he underestimated them. If you underestimate someone, or a group of someones, they don't really register on your radar --good or bad---

But Women registered on VPW's radar--they registered constantly --and he was constantly trying to pigeon hole them--

hence the name calling, manipulative, liars, hence the feeling they must be controlled--hence the feeling they were inferior to God's plan 'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'

Because he both hated and feared them.

He was constantly afraid they would reveal him, (they are liars) they would undo him (they are manipulators) they would outshine him(they must be controlled)

The one women he does give some credit to he later slams for leaving the "ministry"

So why the credit in the first place???

MY HUNCH is that a lot of people knew about those sessions, a lot of people knew what she taught, a lot of people knew her--there were witnesses--not as easy to claim as his, HER teachings.

But in the end he denigrated her along with the rest of my gender.

No one spends as much time and energy running down a gruop of people , if they are indifferent to them, as VPW did with women

IMO it was HATE

Understanding that my view is tempered by a) my gender and B) my TWI experience

[WordWolf]

And, we're up to the second snow job! pg-198. vpw was fed up with the meeting, and got ready to leave.

"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out! Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time."'

A little information for those who are not familiar with this incident.

This is courtesy of http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_itulsasnow.htm

"The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees [Farenheit], and the overnight

low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma'

show only 5/10 an inch of snow in Dec 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec 20. NEITHER date concurs with

Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSSES AND TRAINS.

Way Corps graduate Barries Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention,

December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by 'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed

at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.) Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport

do NOT record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts

by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called

the airport, train station and bus station. (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him

about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!)"

[templelady]

So Wordwolf if I understand correctly--

He didn't notice that there was no snow on the ground when he sallied forth the Next day???

I mean, IF I thought there was a blizzard raging outside, I would have my Parka, and Gloves and Mukluks on

to go out --I would then immediately notice that it was not snowing but warm when I walked outside --if for no other reason than from the resulting heat exhaustion engendered by the clothes I was wearing,

I don't know, maybe it's a gender thing

:lol:

[Raf]

Why is it that after reading this indisputable evidence of an indisputable lie, some people still don't get that he was lying about the 1942 snowstorm too? Oh, it was a vision. Oh, it could have happened with few people noticing, no evidence anywhere. How about this: Oh, the guy fabricates snowstorms to embellish his stories, never figuring anyone would have the courage to check.

[Oakspear]

...He didn't notice that there was no snow on the ground when he sallied forth the Next day???

I mean, IF I thought there was a blizzard raging outside, I would have my Parka, and Gloves and Mukluks on

to go out --I would then immediately notice that it was not snowing but warm when I walked outside --if for no other reason than from the resulting heat exhaustion engendered by the clothes I was wearing...

In Nebraska, we use the "red bandana" method of weather prediction:

We hang a red bandana on a stick in the backyard.

• If the bandana is wet, it's raining
  
• If it's blowing around, it's windy
  
• If it's white, it's snowing
  
• If it's GONE, HEAD FOR THE SHELTER, IT'S A TORNADO!!!!! :o
  

Edited October 3, 2005 by Oakspear

[templelady]

AH HA

So a tornado swept through and took all the snow away--wonder how he missed that ???? :mellow:

Why is it that after reading this indisputable evidence of an indisputable lie, some people still don't get that he was lying about the 1942 snowstorm too? Oh, it was a vision.

I know I advocated this position-I was trying for the "benefit of a doubt" scenario--But I know when it is time for MEA CULPA

I was Wrong I was Wrong

SAD but still wrong

[Belle]

Why is it that after reading this indisputable evidence of an indisputable lie, some people still don't get that he was lying about the 1942 snowstorm too? Oh, it was a vision. Oh, it could have happened with few people noticing, no evidence anywhere. How about this: Oh, the guy fabricates snowstorms to embellish his stories, never figuring anyone would have the courage to check.

Well, the lie worked the first time, why not use it again? :P