It seems the only women VP ever had any kind of respect for were women he considered his "intellectual" equals. For some reason, he could be in awe of them.
In all my years in TWI (1970-1988), in the corps, staff, etc., there is only one time I ever heard him speak well and respectfully of a woman.
We were having some small staff/corps meeting in the BRC and he started talking about a woman who was late - how smart she was, how intelligent, yadda, yadda - it was EW - the author of The Way Living in Love. I was amazed because I'd never heard him talk of any woman before in this respectful a tone.
Yeah, I too am very suspicious of the at night, when everyone was in bed, we were sneaking around, relationship with this woman. Sounds like they had a special, close relationship. Sounds very typical of him.
Then of course, he never saw her again. If they were so close, you'd think we would have met her. Wonder what happened.
Then Rosalind left. It was the fall of the year. Kids were back in school already. It must have been September. I was sitting in my office, an old dentist's office just around the corner from the church where I prayed-I'll show you that too when we get there. I bet you it's still there, though I haven't been back here since I left.
I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.
And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would
teach it to others.
Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me."
(page-178, since "Nothing cataclysmic...")
Watch this next quote from pg-179.
quote:
"The Word is buried today. If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself. You see, I am a product of my times. God knew me before the foundations of the world, just like He knew you and everyone else. We were all in God's
foreknowledge from the beginnings.
God knew I would believe His Word. And every day I am more and more deeply convinced of this ministry which teaches people the accuracy and integrity of God's Word. Without this ministry the world would be in far greater spiritual darkness about His
Word. There would be less light in the world. Where else but in this ministry do you find the Word of God so living and real? This is truly a time of terrific need."
Doctor nods his head abruptly, as if to punctuate his urgency.
"Well, I couldn't believe that God talked to me right then."
pg-180.
quote:
"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by the next day where I said to myself-maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I can really know, so that I can believe.'
The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful early autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I
opened them.
The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling station on the corner not 75 feet away." Doctor relates this phenomenon in a joyous voice.
quote:
The overcast sky turns restlessly over our heads and the sparse sprinkling of snowflakes thickens on the windshield. Doctor laughs aloud. "It reminds me of that day in 1942. It reminds me of that other time it snowed."
pg-181.
quote:
At the corner stands the Marathon Gas Station. Doctor shakes his head from side to side. His face breaks into a ready smile. His eyes are blue, laughing or crying. "It reminds me of the day..." he trails off. "That's where I was sitting when I prayed to God to teach me the Word and show me how. And when I opened my eyes, it was snowing so hard I couldn't see those gas pumps right there." He points to the pumps a dozen yards or more from the window.
Audible voices...snow... it sounds all too fantastical to me NOW!!!
Anyone reading this in their 'right' minds, would think this guy needs some serious evaluation.
Which brings me to another point. Where the he!! was my head at when I read this stuff and believed it??? --> --> -->
Now, I may be wrong...but I'm sure somewhere here on GSC the topic of snow covered gas pumps has been discussed a few times. Was it not said that in the weather reports of that area at that time...snow was not reported??
I know the Tulsa snow storm was fabricated according to meteorology reports, but can't remember if this one was?
I know some said...could it be possible, the 'revelation' was ONLY for HIS eyes? Hmmmmmm?? Interesting?? -->
If that were the case and VP's eyes were the only ones privy to seeing the snow, than that means that anyone could make up anything in order to validate what they 'saw' or 'heard' from God. I think if it were a 'revelation', God would have had several people witness the thing in order to validate VP's 'calling'/'ministry'/'revelation'/'phenomena'.
Smells all too fishy to me. Ice fishing that is! :D-->
Thinking, thinking.. (tap, tap tapping of pencil..)..
1. Chemicals of some kind..
2. Perhaps sleep deprivation..
3. Mid-life crisis, just a little early in life..
quote:
Without this ministry the world would be in far greater spiritual darkness about His
Word. There would be less light in the world. Where else but in this ministry do you find the Word of God so living and real? This is truly a time of terrific need."
Where else indeed. Seems he conveniently forgets Leonard's, Stiles, and others ministries..
But couple this "light giving" ministry with their own definition of an apostle. Here we have the character nominating himself for "sainthood".
Visions do not have to be in "real time". It is entirely possible for one to have a vision in the presence of others that no one else hears or sees. Saul on the road to Tarsus, Elijah, Isaiah, John the Divine, Joseph Smith, Joan of Arc, myself, countless others..
So it isn't inconceivable to my mind that VPW saw snow.
It isn't even inconceivable that his prayer was sincere, even the most insincere have moments of sincerity.
What bothers me is the totality of VPW's career. I mean granting him, in this instance, the benefit of the doubt..he still squandered the gift GOd offered. Squandered, abused and neglected it.
So it isn't inconceivable to my mind that VPW saw snow. It isn't even inconceivable that his prayer was sincere, even the most insincere have moments of sincerity. What bothers me is the totality of VPW's career. I mean granting him, in this instance, the benefit of the doubt..he still squandered the gift GOd offered. Squandered, abused and neglected it. THAT'S what bothers me
My first question on this would be: was there a "real" snowstorm producing an instant whiteout?
As has previously been discussed here, no whiteout was recorded for the area.
Period.
Ok, the next question becomes: was there a vision of this?
Well, that now goes to confirmation based on the second half.
Let's ignore the "if God wants you to tell other people, he'll tell you to tell them"
stuff that got Joseph in trouble with his brothers.
If someone claims to have a vision from God, and this vision does not come to pass,
then they are a false prophet.
This supposed prophecy had several components:
A) God would teach vpw God's Word
B) God would teach vpw God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century
C) vpw would need to teach it to others.
One necessary assumption there is that the phrase
"God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century"
actually had meaning.
In the first century AD, there were no printing presses. What was known was the
spoken Word, a handful of copies of New Testament books here and there,
and the Old Testament/Torah.
So, this entire saying is a neat catchphrase, but conveys a false impression.
If this came from a god, it came from a foolish god. It's a cute concept that is
a convenient FICTION.
In practice, there was no unified vision of things. There was considerable division.
Christians were on the run. They made sure other Christians were not in financial
straits, and spent time together where they could find it, eating together and so on.
Where they found a haven, they stayed and taught. They were hardly an "organized"
bunch, but most especially, they were not CENTRALIZED. If they saw a need in
another city's Christians, someone passed the hat around, and they sent money.
Now, compare that to twi.
Everything centrally organized.
Everything centrally controlled.
Everything STANDARDIZED.
All the money goes ONE WAY>
Permanent locations.
What the top leader says, goes-no questions.
Organized meetings.
Extensive study of Greek, but NO time for charity.
The first century Christian church would never RECOGNIZE twi.
Any resemblance between vpw's work and the first century Christian church is faint at best, and
probably coincidental.
So, that part of this supposed prophecy FAILED- NOTHING resembled the first century Christian church.
Moreover, everything vpw taught was ALREADY being taught at the time he "learned" it.
God could not teach him things that "hadn't been known since" because all of it was KNOWN.
That part of this supposed prophecy FAILED-NONE of it was unknown.
Evidence is pretty clear vpw got EVERYTHING from the books and class of others, not from God.
If there was a vision, it was NOT from the true God who knows better. If it was from another source
(the only remaining option if there WAS a vision), then vpw was an incompetent who couldnt tell
when he got a message from God versus the false god.
vpw then claimed (in the Orange and White Books) that he learned their contents from God and only
God.
The entire claim fails under scrutiny. It's sole purpose was to put forth that himself was some great one.
"The Word is buried today. If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself. You see, I am a product of my times. God knew me before the foundations of the world, just like He knew you and everyone else. We were all in God's foreknowledge from the beginnings.
God knew I would believe His Word."
Here's where he says "God taught me himself because no one else COULD teach me.
Therefore there was no one else who DID teach me. I'm special because I learned it
directly from God."
This, apparently, is NOT one of the places where he supposedly credits Leonard, Bullinger, Stiles,
etc for what he learned from each.
Looks like he's saying teachers that taught him DID NOT EXIST.
"If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself."
Those looking closely will also note that he never comes right out and says
"God taught me, period."
He prevaricates and implies, and leaves direct statements absent or ambiguous.
That way he can say he literally didn't lie, yet still cause others to believe what isn't true.
This is the same principle that he uses when defining "apostle" so it looks like it describes him,
On page 187, vpw shows how to give a compliment and take it away at the same time, when he's asked whatever happened to Rosalind R.
"Oh, she's still around. But she won't have much to do with me now-because our positions on the Holy Spirit differ. She can't accept that. But in those days, she really shook me up. She brought me back to the Bible. I had been brought up with that Word of God, with people around me operating the principles, but they couldn't teach them to me, and I had forgotten them in all my years of training at seminaries. She jarred me, at a time when I was searching and discouraged, with the idea again that the Word of God really WAS the Will of God. It got me started on the right track."
"On October 2, 1942, right after that snowfall, we opened a radio broadcast called the Chimes Hour Youth Caravan on WLOK in Lima. That broadcast and the Sunday morning service made me, made me, go to the Word for two or three new teachings a week. It got me into the Word, got me growing in it, and kept me fluid."
Here comes another list of names, from page 188.
"That's when I began to get interested in the healing ministries such as Glenn Clark's camps featuring health through prayer in Minnesota. There were others: E. Stanley Jones, Rufus Mosley, Albert Cliffe, John Gaynor Banks. I had a tremendous hunger to know more. I invited people to come to Van Wert and teach my "Spiritual 40 Club". And I would listen to them and learn."
vpw has said he and 39 others passed the hat around and paid for Christian speakers to come visit them. Anyone know anything definite about the "Spiritual 40 Club"?
page 190, vpw repeats one of his statements, and hopes you'll connect the dots when he does.
"If no one is around to teach you the Word, and you are hungry, then God has to teach you in the framework of your knowledgeable experience. For example, if you're an athlete, He'll do it through athletics. If you're a farmer, He'll teach you through farming."
On page 187, vpw shows how to give a compliment and take it away at the same time, when he's asked whatever happened to Rosalind R.
"Oh, she's still around. But she won't have much to do with me <BR>now-because our positions on the Holy Spirit differ. She can't accept that. But in those days, she really shook me up. She brought me back to the Bible. I had been brought up with that Word of God, with people around me operating the principles, but they couldn't teach them to me, and I had forgotten them in all my years of training at seminaries. She jarred me, at a time when I was searching and discouraged, with the idea again that the Word of God really WAS the Will of God. It got me started on the right track."
I guess that addressed the earlier question.
She "brought him back" to the Bible.
He had been brought up with it, and people used it, but they couldnt teach him.
Since he was a hellion, I expect the reason they could not is because he could not learn.
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."
He actually forgot them in seminary.
This was the "start" of him on that track.
"On October 2, 1942, right after that snowfall, we opened a radio<BR>broadcast called the Chimes Hour Youth Caravan on WLOK in Lima. That broadcast and the Sunday morning service made me, made me, go to the Word for two or three new teachings a week. It got me into the Word, got me growing in it, and kept me fluid."
In other words, if he didn't need to for his sermons, he would never have gone to The Word,
"On October 2, 1942, right after that snowfall, we opened a radio broadcast called the Chimes Hour Youth Caravan on WLOK in Lima. That broadcast and the Sunday morning service made me, made me, go to the Word for two or three new teachings a week. It got me into the Word, got me growing in it, and kept me fluid."
That's pretty telling, right there! Not to mention all the other quotes and reflections you've already posted, WW. It's amazing how we easily dismissed or didn't even realize what he was saying. It's like the sheister was standing in front of us telling us that he was a liar, a theif and had ulterior motives, and we just stood there nodding our heads and drinking the kool-aid.
"That's when I began to get interested in the healing ministries such as Glenn Clark's camps featuring health through prayer in Minnesota. There were others: E. Stanley Jones, Rufus Mosley, Albert Cliffe, John Gaynor Banks. I had a tremendous hunger to know more. I invited people to come to Van Wert and teach my "Spiritual 40 Club". And I would listen to them and learn."
vpw has said he and 39 others passed the hat around and paid for Christian speakers to come visit them. Anyone know anything definite about the "Spiritual 40 Club"?
BTW,
Glenn Clark's camps were called "Camps Farthest Out."
I'm sure I saw something about that somewhere...
That and the ashram thing...
Who's John Gaynor Banks????
Here's Otto Lininger.
"But one of the finest educators I ever knew was a man named Lininger...Of all the people I heard, he was the finest educator. I met him when I got into the ministry in 1941, and he invited me to teach homiletics and get my Doctor's Degree at his school when I was ready."
pg-189.
"You've seen that degree on my office wall. It's from Pikes Peak Bible Seminary. You've never heard of that place either. Well, many seminaries don't recognize it, so they don't count my Doctor's Degree. The school isn't recognized, and yet Lininger had been the head of the Department of Education for the state of Colorado. He had studies in all the right schools and had gotten all the right degrees himself. But the established religious world just didn't go for his theories."
"But my Th.D. is not recognized in some theological circles. As far as they are concerned, I never received it."
page 190, vpw repeats one of his statements, and hopes you'll connect the dots when he does.
"If no one is around to teach you the Word, and you are hungry, then God has to teach you in the framework of your knowledgeable experience. For example, if you're an athlete, He'll do it through athletics. If you're a farmer, He'll teach you through farming."
That was one of the places he suggested-again-that God taught him directly.
page 192, vpw exceeds "everyone"'s expectations again, thru his friendship with an anonymous woman who supposedly taught him about Church history.
"When I first came to Van Wert, people told me I'd never get along with her. No one else could, so they were sure I couldn't. But I did. We understood each other."
WW I thought you might like it. There are a zillion gems in there.
Lamsa says some Scriptures were lost and others were destroyed (e.g., burned) or rejected because they were "contrary to the new doctrines and dogmas" adopted at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325.43 He says certain passages were "deliberately forged" and added to the books of the Bible.44
Lamsa also attempts to establish scholarly credentials as a means of gaining acceptance. He claims to have been born about 1892, and to have acquired an A.B. degree equivalent in 1907 and a Ph.D. equivalent in theology in 1908 from Archbishop of Canterbury's College, Turkey.50 He also claims to have graduated from Episcopal Theology Seminary in Virginia51 and to have studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Dropsie College.
Lamsa, however, appears to have exaggerated his academic credentials. First, he claims to have attained a Ph.D. at age 16, only one year after his A.B.52 Second, there are no records of his graduation from a seminary, and his own writings suggest that he was never at any school long enough to attain any valid degree
Lamsa's writing style reflects his exalted view of his own mission and character. He usually writes embellished narratives or discourses, not documenting either blanket assertions or detailed comments. For example, he dismisses his lack of supporting evidence for his theory that the New Testament was originally authored in Aramaic by saying, "What is a fact needs no defense."
WW I thought you might like it. There are a zillion gems in there.
Lamsa says some Scriptures were lost and others were destroyed (e.g., burned) or rejected because they were "contrary to the new doctrines and dogmas" adopted at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325.43 He says certain passages were "deliberately forged" and added to the books of the Bible.44
Lamsa also attempts to establish scholarly credentials as a means of gaining acceptance. He claims to have been born about 1892, and to have acquired an A.B. degree equivalent in 1907 and a Ph.D. equivalent in theology in 1908 from Archbishop of Canterbury's College, Turkey.50 He also claims to have graduated from Episcopal Theology Seminary in Virginia51 and to have studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Dropsie College.
Lamsa, however, appears to have exaggerated his academic credentials. First, he claims to have attained a Ph.D. at age 16, only one year after his A.B.52 Second, there are no records of his graduation from a seminary, and his own writings suggest that he was never at any school long enough to attain any valid degree
Lamsa's writing style reflects his exalted view of his own mission and character. He usually writes embellished narratives or discourses, not documenting either blanket assertions or detailed comments. For example, he dismisses his lack of supporting evidence for his theory that the New Testament was originally authored in Aramaic by saying, "What is a fact needs no defense."
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penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
Sunesis
It seems the only women VP ever had any kind of respect for were women he considered his "intellectual" equals. For some reason, he could be in awe of them.
In all my years in TWI (1970-1988), in the corps, staff, etc., there is only one time I ever heard him speak well and respectfully of a woman.
We were having some small staff/corps meeting in the BRC and he started talking about a woman who was late - how smart she was, how intelligent, yadda, yadda - it was EW - the author of The Way Living in Love. I was amazed because I'd never heard him talk of any woman before in this respectful a tone.
Yeah, I too am very suspicious of the at night, when everyone was in bed, we were sneaking around, relationship with this woman. Sounds like they had a special, close relationship. Sounds very typical of him.
Then of course, he never saw her again. If they were so close, you'd think we would have met her. Wonder what happened.
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A la prochaine
Sunesis,
How do you know he never saw her again?
Now, here in 1965, he still knows of her whereabouts. Some 23 years later. Did she keep in touch to let him know she was going to be in Lima???
He is still following her career it seems.
IMHO, I think this thing went on alot longer than just one week.
WW,
Thanks for the compliment. I guess growing up in a ministry where leaders were often up to NO GOOD, I got wise in sniffing out this kinda' stuff.
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WordWolf
(page-178, since "Nothing cataclysmic...")
Watch this next quote from pg-179.
pg-180.
pg-181.
Folks?
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A la prochaine
WW,
Where does one begin?
-->
Audible voices...snow... it sounds all too fantastical to me NOW!!!
Anyone reading this in their 'right' minds, would think this guy needs some serious evaluation.
Which brings me to another point. Where the he!! was my head at when I read this stuff and believed it???
--> 
--> 
-->
Now, I may be wrong...but I'm sure somewhere here on GSC the topic of snow covered gas pumps has been discussed a few times. Was it not said that in the weather reports of that area at that time...snow was not reported??
I know the Tulsa snow storm was fabricated according to meteorology reports, but can't remember if this one was?
I know some said...could it be possible, the 'revelation' was ONLY for HIS eyes? Hmmmmmm?? Interesting??
-->
If that were the case and VP's eyes were the only ones privy to seeing the snow, than that means that anyone could make up anything in order to validate what they 'saw' or 'heard' from God. I think if it were a 'revelation', God would have had several people witness the thing in order to validate VP's 'calling'/'ministry'/'revelation'/'phenomena'.
Smells all too fishy to me. Ice fishing that is!
:D-->
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Ham
Ah, the snowstorm..
Thinking, thinking.. (tap, tap tapping of pencil..)..
1. Chemicals of some kind..
2. Perhaps sleep deprivation..
3. Mid-life crisis, just a little early in life..
Where else indeed. Seems he conveniently forgets Leonard's, Stiles, and others ministries..
But couple this "light giving" ministry with their own definition of an apostle. Here we have the character nominating himself for "sainthood".
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
imho
too much coke lsd and booze!!i also saw many things in my hippie days!!!!!!!
:D-->
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templelady
THe snow
Okay here I go again playing devils advocate
Men and women throughout time have had visions.
Visions do not have to be in "real time". It is entirely possible for one to have a vision in the presence of others that no one else hears or sees. Saul on the road to Tarsus, Elijah, Isaiah, John the Divine, Joseph Smith, Joan of Arc, myself, countless others..
So it isn't inconceivable to my mind that VPW saw snow.
It isn't even inconceivable that his prayer was sincere, even the most insincere have moments of sincerity.
What bothers me is the totality of VPW's career. I mean granting him, in this instance, the benefit of the doubt..he still squandered the gift GOd offered. Squandered, abused and neglected it.
THAT'S what bothers me
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WordWolf
My first question on this would be: was there a "real" snowstorm producing an instant whiteout?
As has previously been discussed here, no whiteout was recorded for the area.
Period.
Ok, the next question becomes: was there a vision of this?
Well, that now goes to confirmation based on the second half.
Let's ignore the "if God wants you to tell other people, he'll tell you to tell them"
stuff that got Joseph in trouble with his brothers.
If someone claims to have a vision from God, and this vision does not come to pass,
then they are a false prophet.
This supposed prophecy had several components:
A) God would teach vpw God's Word
B) God would teach vpw God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century
C) vpw would need to teach it to others.
One necessary assumption there is that the phrase
"God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century"
actually had meaning.
In the first century AD, there were no printing presses. What was known was the
spoken Word, a handful of copies of New Testament books here and there,
and the Old Testament/Torah.
So, this entire saying is a neat catchphrase, but conveys a false impression.
If this came from a god, it came from a foolish god. It's a cute concept that is
a convenient FICTION.
In practice, there was no unified vision of things. There was considerable division.
Christians were on the run. They made sure other Christians were not in financial
straits, and spent time together where they could find it, eating together and so on.
Where they found a haven, they stayed and taught. They were hardly an "organized"
bunch, but most especially, they were not CENTRALIZED. If they saw a need in
another city's Christians, someone passed the hat around, and they sent money.
Now, compare that to twi.
Everything centrally organized.
Everything centrally controlled.
Everything STANDARDIZED.
All the money goes ONE WAY>
Permanent locations.
What the top leader says, goes-no questions.
Organized meetings.
Extensive study of Greek, but NO time for charity.
The first century Christian church would never RECOGNIZE twi.
Any resemblance between vpw's work and the first century Christian church is faint at best, and
probably coincidental.
So, that part of this supposed prophecy FAILED- NOTHING resembled the first century Christian church.
Moreover, everything vpw taught was ALREADY being taught at the time he "learned" it.
God could not teach him things that "hadn't been known since" because all of it was KNOWN.
That part of this supposed prophecy FAILED-NONE of it was unknown.
Evidence is pretty clear vpw got EVERYTHING from the books and class of others, not from God.
If there was a vision, it was NOT from the true God who knows better. If it was from another source
(the only remaining option if there WAS a vision), then vpw was an incompetent who couldnt tell
when he got a message from God versus the false god.
vpw then claimed (in the Orange and White Books) that he learned their contents from God and only
God.
The entire claim fails under scrutiny. It's sole purpose was to put forth that himself was some great one.
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WordWolf
Here's where he says "God taught me himself because no one else COULD teach me.
Therefore there was no one else who DID teach me. I'm special because I learned it
directly from God."
This, apparently, is NOT one of the places where he supposedly credits Leonard, Bullinger, Stiles,
etc for what he learned from each.
Looks like he's saying teachers that taught him DID NOT EXIST.
"If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself."
Those looking closely will also note that he never comes right out and says
"God taught me, period."
He prevaricates and implies, and leaves direct statements absent or ambiguous.
That way he can say he literally didn't lie, yet still cause others to believe what isn't true.
This is the same principle that he uses when defining "apostle" so it looks like it describes him,
then leaves out actually saying he's one.
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WordWolf
On page 187, vpw shows how to give a compliment and take it away at the same time, when he's asked whatever happened to Rosalind R.
Here comes another list of names, from page 188.
vpw has said he and 39 others passed the hat around and paid for Christian speakers to come visit them. Anyone know anything definite about the "Spiritual 40 Club"?page 190, vpw repeats one of his statements, and hopes you'll connect the dots when he does.
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dmiller
HERE IS A REALLY GOOD READ along these lines. :)
David
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shazdancer
Thanks for the link. dmiller. In one sentence, Juedes says,
See? I'm not as crazy as I think I am....
:D Shaz
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WhiteDove
Some interesting stuff on Lamsa and some on Lamsa and the Way.
http://www.equip.org/free/DL010.htm
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WordWolf
Hm.
Interesting.
This warrants further study.
Frankly, I'd rather discuss this on a different thread, and will probably open one later
for this, since I think it deserves a thread all by itself.
However, at a quick read,
it provides some ideas that sound familiar.
Lamsa downgraded sin to "error" (which is similar to downgrading it to "broken fellowship"
in that both of those are PART of sin and not ALL of sin).
Lamsa put forth that he was the man of God for this day and time.
(That ties up another loose end.)
Lamsa's idiosyncratic position on Christ has been used by different people
and the writer's suggesting it's the main reason vpw dropped the Trinity.
It also gives a lot more info on Lamsa's psychic connections and so on.
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WordWolf
On page 187, vpw shows how to give a compliment and take it away at the same time, when he's asked whatever happened to Rosalind R.
I guess that addressed the earlier question.She "brought him back" to the Bible.
He had been brought up with it, and people used it, but they couldnt teach him.
Since he was a hellion, I expect the reason they could not is because he could not learn.
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."
He actually forgot them in seminary.
This was the "start" of him on that track.
In other words, if he didn't need to for his sermons, he would never have gone to The Word,
it "made" him study.
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dmiller
speaking of Lamsa ----
Light Of Word
David
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Belle
That's pretty telling, right there! Not to mention all the other quotes and reflections you've already posted, WW. It's amazing how we easily dismissed or didn't even realize what he was saying. It's like the sheister was standing in front of us telling us that he was a liar, a theif and had ulterior motives, and we just stood there nodding our heads and drinking the kool-aid.
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WordWolf
Here comes another list of names, from page 188.
vpw has said he and 39 others passed the hat around and paid for Christian speakers to come visit them. Anyone know anything definite about the "Spiritual 40 Club"?BTW,
Glenn Clark's camps were called "Camps Farthest Out."
I'm sure I saw something about that somewhere...
That and the ashram thing...
Who's John Gaynor Banks????
Here's Otto Lininger.
pg-189.
page 190, vpw repeats one of his statements, and hopes you'll connect the dots when he does.
That was one of the places he suggested-again-that God taught him directly.page 192, vpw exceeds "everyone"'s expectations again, thru his friendship with an anonymous woman who supposedly taught him about Church history.
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WordWolf
Ok, this is a handy time to invoke this link....
Pike's Peak Seminary had no resident instruction, no published list of faculty, no accreditation, no
agency of government supervised it. Its degree programs involved mailing of book reviews and
papers by mail.
About Dr H. Ellis Lininger being "head of the Dept of Education for the state of Colorado"...
The Colorado Dept of Education said he never did head this dept.
==========
BTW,
thanks for the kind words, Belle.
As you can see, however, the group effort on this is more effective than just me
posting quotes. Others catch things I miss and post relevant links and quotes.
I also got a few quotes from the GSC archives.
My favourite quote hasn't even come up yet. It will make the most shocking
stuff from earlier in the thread look tame.
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WordWolf
Let's see,
more on the names vpw name-dropped....
Glenn Clark.
Hm. He said
"If you wish to travel far and fast, travel light. Take off all your envies, jealousies, unforgiveness,
selfishness, and fears." That's where vpw got "traveling light."
He also talked about "that abundant life which Christ promised."
CFO mentioned "an 'Athlete of the Spirit' ".
http://glennclark.wwwhubs.com/
http://www.campsfarthestout.org
http://www.cfointernational.org/lit_portrait_of_GC.html
http://www.dickb.com/articles/christian_roots_dsb.shtml
http://www.trilliumontariocfo.com/whatiscfo.htm
http://www.winni.org
Hm. Starr Daily and Rufus Moseley were also involved in CFO.
Sunesis mentioned once that they were all part of the 1940 Tulsa Renegade preachers.
"Basically what happened was, after WW II, when the country went into great prosperity, in the late
'40s, early '50s, these men all decided they could make much more money if they started their own
ministries. Sound familiar?
VP needed a product for his ministry. After searching, he found BG Leonard, and the rest is history-
VP saw his product to promote and sell."
Socks added the following:
"When I was in the corps, the VPster told us he considered 3 careers as a young man-business, ministry
and entertainment.
When he was young he said he read a magazine article about up and coming careers, areas of work and
industry that would be expanding in the 50s and 60s. Ministry, church work, was #1. It was because of
the baby boomers. All those families would be looking for churches, and the social activity that goes
along with them.
He was pretty open about it, of course he put the emphasis at the time on his personal calling and the
stories like being a youngster and looking up at the minister and saying 'I want to be a man of God like
you, sir!'
I didn't really realize it at the time, but when I took the 'class' it had only been on film for a couple years.
As I went along I realized that the 'good old days' of the Way were actually the days in which he
solidified his marketing plan for PFAL and put it in to motion by visiting the West Coast and other locations.
I'm of the opinion that all that freedom we experienced way back then was just the wheels of the Way
slowly gearing up. It was always his plan to have a centralized ministry that he ran and that made money.
It just took him a while to get the pieces the way he wanted them.
Which is completely aside from what he taught, right or wrong, good or bad. I really feel that he was
always conflicted by the desire to have a thriving business that made money and the desire to do some
good with teaching the Bible. He mixed God and mammon in the worst way-he packaged what he
felt was his personal minstry and sold it for money. No dough, you can't go-that was the deal with PFAL."
Too Gray Now replied
"Like you said, Socks, he was interested in three areas...he ended up running the Way ministry to fulfill
ALL his career desires."
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WordWolf
Starr Daily....
The impression I have of him is that he was a hardened criminal
who experienced the transformative power of Christ,
and walked the straight and narrow.
http://www.aabibliography.com/starrdailyprisondoors.htm
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WhiteDove
WW I thought you might like it. There are a zillion gems in there.
Lamsa says some Scriptures were lost and others were destroyed (e.g., burned) or rejected because they were "contrary to the new doctrines and dogmas" adopted at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325.43 He says certain passages were "deliberately forged" and added to the books of the Bible.44
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forgers of the Word?
____________________________________________________________________________
Lamsa also attempts to establish scholarly credentials as a means of gaining acceptance. He claims to have been born about 1892, and to have acquired an A.B. degree equivalent in 1907 and a Ph.D. equivalent in theology in 1908 from Archbishop of Canterbury's College, Turkey.50 He also claims to have graduated from Episcopal Theology Seminary in Virginia51 and to have studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Dropsie College.
Lamsa, however, appears to have exaggerated his academic credentials. First, he claims to have attained a Ph.D. at age 16, only one year after his A.B.52 Second, there are no records of his graduation from a seminary, and his own writings suggest that he was never at any school long enough to attain any valid degree
____________________________________________________________________________
Lamsa's writing style reflects his exalted view of his own mission and character. He usually writes embellished narratives or discourses, not documenting either blanket assertions or detailed comments. For example, he dismisses his lack of supporting evidence for his theory that the New Testament was originally authored in Aramaic by saying, "What is a fact needs no defense."
___________________________________________________________________________
Lamsa claimed that he was the only person on earth able to accurately interpret the Bible:
__________________________________________________________________________
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WordWolf
Ok, that covers
-"Forgers of the Word"
-exagerrating or lying about one's credentials to make one sound important
-getting a "Doctorate" that doesn't count legally
-blanket assertions without documentation
-statements with NO supporting evidence
-embellished narratives and discourses
-the special connection to God-the "ONLY" person on earth with teh tr00th
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Belle
No wonder vee pee liked Lamsa so much. :huh:
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