All attend and give heed! Sunesis has posted something especially noteworthy!
quote:
Originally posted by Sunesis:
Here's a great statement when he was talking about Rinker and how she pushed him:
...but the Bible is the Word of God... in all my years of school-not believing it anyway.
Note: "Not believing it [the Bible] anyway."
I can't believe he let that slip.
I have often thought he was not born again - here he basically admits with all his education,he did not believe the Bible. This is no wonder, many pastors, reverends and people who make a living pastoring their flocks don't either.
VP's concern was his ministry and his people. His "product" was the Word. It paid off handsomely.
*blink* *blink*
Holy moley!
How did I miss THIS one?????
Let's check the timeframes here....
vpw grows up neglecting his chores. Harry thinks he's "preaching to the trees" but
never SAW him preaching until over a decade later.
As a child, he saw a preacher, and supposedly said "I want to be like you."
As a teenager, he was a showoff and a bully. He's remembered for tearing up the
neighborhood on a motorcycle, and may or may not have played music and sang.
(He claims he did.) When he was in high school, he told his dad he wanted to study
for the ministry and Harry said "he'd always liked to study."
NOTHING about "I have a deep desire to serve God" or "I want to see others serve
God". Just about study.
vpw himself said that "First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer;
but by my junior year in college, I had my heart set on the ministry."
So, it was a profession, like a doctor or a lawyer, as he saw it.
No deep commitment then. Apparently, no deep commitment SOONER, as Harry either
told the truth or he didn't. Either vpw told his Dad that in high school while he
was thinking of other professions, or he NEVER said that in high school and Harry's
memory added it (possible, but I'm reluctant to START there.)
When he entered the seminary, the neighbors thought he was
morally bankrupt. He learned to compose a sermon and get people involved.
His first church was in Payne, Ohio. His first sermons were there, in 1941.
There he demonstrated an ability to "preach" "good" and "active" and
"get young people interested". There were no inner depths resembling what he
taught later.
In summer of 1942, Rosalind Rinker dogged him "on the Bible being the Word
of God." He's "never heard that in all his years of school-not believing it anyway."
That means that the summer of 1942 was the EARLIEST vpw believed the Bible was
the Word of God.
quote:
"She jarred me, at a time when I was searching and discouraged, with the idea again
that the Word of God really WAS the Will of God. It got me started on the right
track."
So, his entire time in college studying to be a minister, and the entire FIRST YEAR
of his pastorate, he had not yet STARTED to believe the Bible is the Word of God.
His entire upbringing BEFORE that, he hadn't believed it either.
Rufus Moseley said, of the Spirit, years later,
"I'm full, but I can't give it to you, and I don't know why."
I think we know why, Rufus-vpw wasn't a real Christian at the time, so he could not
manifest the new birth outwards. That's the external evidence of an internal reality
In summer of 1942, Rosalind Rinker dogged him "on the Bible being the Word
of God." He's "never heard that in all his years of school-not believing it anyway."
Ah, I think I see the key to all of this.. maybe subliminally, he was telling us the truth?
"never HEARD that in all his years.."
Lessee.. Ma and Pa dragged young vp to church every sunday.. fifty or so times a YEAR.. and he didn't hear it. Not that they weren't SAYING it.
When he was a town bully, wearing a leather jacket and riding his motorcycle in town while standing on the seat.. he didn't HEAR the message.. not that they weren't giving it.
You have to remember, we didn't have quite the separation of church and state in those days.. they studied the Bible as part of the friggin curriculum.
YEARS in Seminary, and he didn't HEAR that the Bible is the Word of God???!! What seminary did he attend?? First church of Satan? You'd think so by his description..
Honestly, I think this is correct. He did NOT "hear" it. Not that they didn't try..
Finally, we come to this "vivacious" lady, that had to practically beat the h*ll out of him to finally "hear" it.
Speaks a great deal about his character, at least to me.
Actually WW while you were busy pontificating your version of The Way Living in Love you missed the first post on page 12 by shazdancer.
To which I replied Yes. Then Ala posted and I confirmed her post that it was a ROA family table. Yes I was there it was in Sidney toward the east end of the fairgrounds on the way out of the gate to the little grocery store at the edge of the grounds. If you want to pay the airfair I most likely could find the spot for you. The pictures I have somewhere in storage are ones I took with some sort of camera that I most likely would not want to admit I owned.
As Ala said it was a strange thing I was there to see Dove (no relation) a band from here who played later on.
Ok I googled the song and came up with two choices. I think this one was it but it has been a few years. Since it is about dogs I'd guess this one.
Artist: Grandpa Jones Tabs/Chords
Song: Old Rattler Tab
OLD RATTLER
Recorded by Grandpa Jones
[G] Old Rattler was a good old dog; As blind as he could [D] be
Ev'ry night 'bout supper time; I believe that dog could [G] see.
Call old Rattler from the barn; Here! Rattler! [G] Here!
Old Rattler tree'd the other night; And I tho't he'd tree'd a 'coon
When I come to find out; He was barkin' at the moon./Refrain:
Well, grandma had a yeller hen; We set her as you know
We set her on three buzzard eggs; And hatched out one old crow./Refrain:
Grandpa had a muley cow; She was muley when she's born
It took a jaybird forty year; To fly from horn to horn./Refrain:
Now if I had a needle and thread; As fine as I could sew
I'd sew my sweetheart to my back; And down the road I'd go./Refrain:
Old Rattler was a smart old dog; Even tho' he was blind
He wouldn't hurt one single thing; Tho' he was very fine.
One night I saw a big fat 'coon; Climb up in a tree
I called old Rattler right away; To get 'im down fer me.
But Rattler wouldn't do it; Because he liked that 'coon
I saw them walkin' paw in paw; Later by the light of the moon./Refrain:
Now old Rattler's dead and gone; Like all good dogs do
You better not act a dog yourself; Or you'll be goin' there too./Refrain:
As I said not being a player I will refrain from critique but he did play the guitar. He was not Les Paul,or Clapton by any strech but it was passable. Thinking back it is odd that they did not record it and sell it to the masses on tape even JP got a record deal.
Actually WW while you were busy pontificating your version of The Way Living in Love you missed the first post on page 12 by shazdancer.
If you mean her first post on that page (it's 3rd from the bottom), I did not
miss it. (If you mean another post, it's not on page 12.)
In that post, she asked if anyone played a guitar. She said he couldn't sing.
quote:
To which I replied Yes.
Actually, your exact post was
"Did anyone actually hear him play a guitar?
-->"
I read HER post just fine. I read the WORDS on your post just fine.
I missed that " --> " meant "I did". Forgive me-I'm not used to that
particular piece of netslang. I thought you were WAVING, and it wasn't part of
the body of the post.
quote:
Then Ala posted
She seemed to read your post the same way I did-you asked the question, and
waved, being a friendly neighbor. Apparently, her netslang isn't up to snuff to
keep up with you either.
quote:
and I confirmed her post that it was a ROA family table. Yes I was there
Ok, that answers the MAIN question. You were there and saw it.
quote:
It was in Sidney toward the east end of the fairgrounds on the way out of the gate to the little grocery store at the edge of the grounds. If you want to pay the airfair I most likely could find the spot for you. The pictures I have somewhere in storage are ones I took with some sort of camera that I most likely would not want to admit I owned.
Personally, if you say you were there, your word is
good enough for me-I need no other confirmation.
quote:
As Ala said it was a strange thing I was there to see Dove (no relation) a band from here who played later on.
Ok I googled the song and came up with two choices. I think this one was it but it has been a few years. Since it is about dogs I'd guess this one.
Artist: Grandpa Jones Tabs/Chords
Song: Old Rattler Tab
OLD RATTLER
Recorded by Grandpa Jones
[G] Old Rattler was a good old dog; As blind as he could [D] be
Ev'ry night 'bout supper time; I believe that dog could [G] see.
Call old Rattler from the barn; Here! Rattler! [G] Here!
Old Rattler tree'd the other night; And I tho't he'd tree'd a 'coon
When I come to find out; He was barkin' at the moon./Refrain:
Well, grandma had a yeller hen; We set her as you know
We set her on three buzzard eggs; And hatched out one old crow./Refrain:
Grandpa had a muley cow; She was muley when she's born
It took a jaybird forty year; To fly from horn to horn./Refrain:
Now if I had a needle and thread; As fine as I could sew
I'd sew my sweetheart to my back; And down the road I'd go./Refrain:
Old Rattler was a smart old dog; Even tho' he was blind
He wouldn't hurt one single thing; Tho' he was very fine.
One night I saw a big fat 'coon; Climb up in a tree
I called old Rattler right away; To get 'im down fer me.
But Rattler wouldn't do it; Because he liked that 'coon
I saw them walkin' paw in paw; Later by the light of the moon./Refrain:
Now old Rattler's dead and gone; Like all good dogs do
You better not act a dog yourself; Or you'll be goin' there too./Refrain:
As I said not being a player I will refrain from critique but he did play the guitar. He was not Les Paul,or Clapton by any strech but it was passable. Thinking back it is odd that they did not record it and sell it to the masses on tape even JP got a record deal.
Ok, that answers my OTHER question.
That is, he actually DID play the guitar, if not up to a professional standard,
but he did PLAY. (Probably knew 3 chords, could play backup in a pinch.)
His singing ability, I got from shazdancer, was something Simon Cowell would have
some unflattering terms for.
I can speculate why they didn't (HE didn't) try to release it as a record,
but I think I've used up my speculation quota for the rest of the day. :)-->
...but the Bible is the Word of God... in all my years of school-not believing it anyway
the admission is:
I never heard that the Bible is the word of GOD
Then he goes on to say "not believing it anyway"
So if he had not believed it "anyway" that means thathe MUST HAVE HEARD IT before that day.
WHen you say "I didn't believe it anyway" what you are saying is, that something you heard previous to the current conversation appeared to be untrue in your estimation.
So what is actuality VPW was saying was
"I had heard the Bible was the WOrd of God but I didn't believe it"
Sounds to me like VP was claiming to be the modern day Saul--He never believed and suddenly GOd spoke directly to him.
THat could explain TWI'sobession with the letters of PAul to the exclusion of Jesus Christ.
VPW wasn't just teaching--in his mind he was the Spiritual equivalent of the Apostle Paul, in fact better--in "piffle" he was constantly pointing out where Paul had erred in his "walk" the implication being that he, VPW, would not have made such mistakes.
Thanks WW - I had tried to use the copy and bold function - I had wanted to use the quote from the book - thanks for doing it for me! I'll figure it out sooner or later.
OK, glad the 'did he' 'didn't he' play the guitar wars are over...
OK... about the "I had heard that the Bible was the Word of God but I didn't believe it" line...
in piffle...VP says...(this is the jist not word for word) that when he came out of seminary school he no longer believed the words "HOLY BIBLE" on the cover.
He said the reason for that was because they had studied so much 'around' the scriptures that he had more faith in what 'men' said about the Bible than what the 'Bible' had to say for itself.
Well the picture forum is down for the move but if I find the pict's I may post them if I can figure out how to on the new one. I did notice that on the one that was from the Way Magazine, I think he did have another guitar player with him which most likely gave the song a better sound.
Quote WordWolf: Ok, that answers my OTHER question.
That is, he actually DID play the guitar, if not up to a professional standard,
but he did PLAY. (Probably knew 3 chords, could play backup in a pinch.)
His singing ability, I got from shazdancer, was something Simon Cowell would have
some unflattering terms for.
I can speculate why they didn't (HE didn't) try to release it as a record,
but I think I've used up my speculation quota for the rest of the day. Quote:
I'd say that was a fair rendering of the song that cowboy one two three strum.
in piffle...VP says...(this is the jist not word for word) that when he came out of seminary school he no longer believed the words "HOLY BIBLE" on the cover.
He said the reason for that was because they had studied so much 'around' the scriptures that he had more faith in what 'men' said about the Bible than what the 'Bible' had to say for itself.
Could this be what he was refering to?
I don't think so, would be interesting to find out which statement came first.
Even if he believed what "men" said about the Bible, he still would have heard that the BIble was the word of GOd. I seriously can't believe that from 1942 and before he would have failed to hear this point in some fashion or another.
If he were perceptive enough to have noticed at the time that they were talking "around" scripture, VPW, who preached to the trees, and told visting preachers that he wanted to be like them would have noticed.
He also makes a point that he had never heard that the bible is the WOrd of God in statement one.
In statement two he implies that he at one time knew and believed that the Bible was the word of God and through Seminary lost that faith.
THe two statements just don't mesh
Either
A) at one time he knew the Bible was the Word of God and lost that belief. In which case the statement would have been about regaining faith in the Bible being the Word of God NOT about never knowing about it being the word of GOD
Bear with me then.. If vp didn't believe the Bible was theWord of God until 1942...what did he base his teaching of the tithe to his brand new congregation on (in 1941)? Maybe this really does show his motivation after all.
I heard that VPW had played guitar though ,personally, I never heard him play. I do recall that his comment about "laying down the guitar " was used a great deal by WOWs and Corps as an example of sacrifice -as if VPW had some preternatural ability for guitar and made the ultimate sacrifice by denying his "immense talent" for music (and basketball) in favor of servitude to God. I later learned that his musical abilites were ,at best, average and , in general, quite mediocre. Of course during the "good ole days" (early to mid 70s) VPW could do no wrong and was openly worshipped as a valid substitute for the "absent christ" though that phrase had yet to come into vogue. However I do recall that Stacey Bowen once said that "you don't have Jesus or Paul but you do have Doctor Wierwille". That comment made me ill though the bulk of the people enthusiastically applauded. How whacked was that ?
Worse I once heard a starstruck WOW say that something to the effect of "Doctor is so right on that he can check out scenes and situations that ,for you and me (the average believer) , would mean that we be out of fellowship. But not for Doctor". Of course later this type of thinking was used by Way leadership to justify their licentious behavior.
"After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and
she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near
the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God.
She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
OK.....I have only ONE question...Why in the he!! did VP take so much from this WOMAN? Up until now...VP has no respect for woman. Suddenly, this lady is lacing into him...and she's the best thing since sliced bread. hmmmmmmmmmm???? -->
quote:
The last night of her stay, she and I went into the church and knelt at the
pulpit chairs. I remember I asked God for forgiveness, understanding and love,
The forgiveness word REALLY caught my eye. Here is a man that is sure of his beliefs...he's taking a stand ... he's telling the religious leaders where to go and setting them straight.
Bear with me then.. If vp didn't believe the Bible was theWord of God until 1942...what did he base his teaching of the tithe to his brand new congregation on (in 1941)? Maybe this really does show his motivation after all.
oodles of conversions among the missionaries, their wives and
their children. One of those women who got converted was
Rosalind Rinker who'd been on the mission field for sixteen
years-before...
So let me get this straight-- Rosalind served on the mission field for SIXTEEN YEARS before she was converted??!?!?!?!?
quote:
We got acquainted just in a brief period of
time and somehow or other, it jelled within my heart to say
to her, "Well, why don't you come over to our house and
spend a week?" And she said "Well, I'll just do it." That
was a surprise to me because the average person who had a
depth of religion said to me, "Well, I'll pray about it."
That was the usual attitude that I'd run into. by this time.
You know, if they had any depth of spirituality, like the
boys that graduate from Moody, Wheaton and the rest of them,
they would always say to me, "We have gotta take time out
and pray about it."
So if you had any depth of sprituality you "prayed about it" but she didn't need to pray. So I take it from this, that it was VPW's contention that people who didn't pray about his requests had more spritual depth than those who did??!?!?!
quote:
"Boy," I thought to myself, "how can a woman have
this much knowledge of the Word?"
Ahh there is the VPW we know and "love"
quote:
and we prayed together, and that was the
second great night of my life. When, during the course of
that weekend, she told me that God was showing her that He
had something very special for me to do, and that I should
teach the Word.
Okay, wait a minute, I thought this was the night she showed VPW that the word was from GOD-becuase He hadn't known that before
NOw he is saying that she showed him that he should teach the WOrd -- not a single thing in this whole speech about not knowing the Bible was the word of GOD.
That's the problem with "creative license" in your life , you keep losing track of where you created something other than the truth.
"After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and
she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near
the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God.
She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
OK.....I have only ONE question...Why in the he!! did VP take so much from this WOMAN? Up until now...VP has no respect for woman. Suddenly, this lady is lacing into him...and she's the best thing since sliced bread. hmmmmmmmmmm???? -->
quote:
The last night of her stay, she and I went into the church and knelt at the
pulpit chairs. I remember I asked God for forgiveness, understanding and love,
The forgiveness word REALLY caught my eye. Here is a man that is sure of his beliefs...he's taking a stand ... he's telling the religious leaders where to go and setting them straight.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
208
38
36
60
Popular Days
Sep 5
38
Sep 19
22
Sep 4
20
Sep 7
19
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 208 posts
templelady 38 posts
A la prochaine 36 posts
Ham 60 posts
Popular Days
Sep 5 2005
38 posts
Sep 19 2005
22 posts
Sep 4 2005
20 posts
Sep 7 2005
19 posts
Popular Posts
penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
WordWolf
All attend and give heed! Sunesis has posted something especially noteworthy!
*blink* *blink*
Holy moley!
How did I miss THIS one?????
Let's check the timeframes here....
vpw grows up neglecting his chores. Harry thinks he's "preaching to the trees" but
never SAW him preaching until over a decade later.
As a child, he saw a preacher, and supposedly said "I want to be like you."
As a teenager, he was a showoff and a bully. He's remembered for tearing up the
neighborhood on a motorcycle, and may or may not have played music and sang.
(He claims he did.) When he was in high school, he told his dad he wanted to study
for the ministry and Harry said "he'd always liked to study."
NOTHING about "I have a deep desire to serve God" or "I want to see others serve
God". Just about study.
vpw himself said that "First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer;
but by my junior year in college, I had my heart set on the ministry."
So, it was a profession, like a doctor or a lawyer, as he saw it.
No deep commitment then. Apparently, no deep commitment SOONER, as Harry either
told the truth or he didn't. Either vpw told his Dad that in high school while he
was thinking of other professions, or he NEVER said that in high school and Harry's
memory added it (possible, but I'm reluctant to START there.)
When he entered the seminary, the neighbors thought he was
morally bankrupt. He learned to compose a sermon and get people involved.
His first church was in Payne, Ohio. His first sermons were there, in 1941.
There he demonstrated an ability to "preach" "good" and "active" and
"get young people interested". There were no inner depths resembling what he
taught later.
In summer of 1942, Rosalind Rinker dogged him "on the Bible being the Word
of God." He's "never heard that in all his years of school-not believing it anyway."
That means that the summer of 1942 was the EARLIEST vpw believed the Bible was
the Word of God.
So, his entire time in college studying to be a minister, and the entire FIRST YEAR
of his pastorate, he had not yet STARTED to believe the Bible is the Word of God.
His entire upbringing BEFORE that, he hadn't believed it either.
Rufus Moseley said, of the Spirit, years later,
"I'm full, but I can't give it to you, and I don't know why."
I think we know why, Rufus-vpw wasn't a real Christian at the time, so he could not
manifest the new birth outwards. That's the external evidence of an internal reality
he did not HAVE.
=======
Bra-vo, Sunesis.
Take a bow.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Ah, I think I see the key to all of this.. maybe subliminally, he was telling us the truth?
"never HEARD that in all his years.."
Lessee.. Ma and Pa dragged young vp to church every sunday.. fifty or so times a YEAR.. and he didn't hear it. Not that they weren't SAYING it.
When he was a town bully, wearing a leather jacket and riding his motorcycle in town while standing on the seat.. he didn't HEAR the message.. not that they weren't giving it.
You have to remember, we didn't have quite the separation of church and state in those days.. they studied the Bible as part of the friggin curriculum.
YEARS in Seminary, and he didn't HEAR that the Bible is the Word of God???!! What seminary did he attend?? First church of Satan? You'd think so by his description..
Honestly, I think this is correct. He did NOT "hear" it. Not that they didn't try..
Finally, we come to this "vivacious" lady, that had to practically beat the h*ll out of him to finally "hear" it.
Speaks a great deal about his character, at least to me.
Perhaps he SUCCUMBED to this kind of treatment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Actually WW while you were busy pontificating your version of The Way Living in Love you missed the first post on page 12 by shazdancer.
To which I replied Yes. Then Ala posted and I confirmed her post that it was a ROA family table. Yes I was there it was in Sidney toward the east end of the fairgrounds on the way out of the gate to the little grocery store at the edge of the grounds. If you want to pay the airfair I most likely could find the spot for you. The pictures I have somewhere in storage are ones I took with some sort of camera that I most likely would not want to admit I owned.
As Ala said it was a strange thing I was there to see Dove (no relation) a band from here who played later on.
Ok I googled the song and came up with two choices. I think this one was it but it has been a few years. Since it is about dogs I'd guess this one.
Artist: Grandpa Jones Tabs/Chords
Song: Old Rattler Tab
OLD RATTLER
Recorded by Grandpa Jones
[G] Old Rattler was a good old dog; As blind as he could [D] be
Ev'ry night 'bout supper time; I believe that dog could [G] see.
Refrain:
[G] Here! Rattler, Here! Here!; Here! Rattler! [D] Here!
Call old Rattler from the barn; Here! Rattler! [G] Here!
Old Rattler tree'd the other night; And I tho't he'd tree'd a 'coon
When I come to find out; He was barkin' at the moon./Refrain:
Well, grandma had a yeller hen; We set her as you know
We set her on three buzzard eggs; And hatched out one old crow./Refrain:
Grandpa had a muley cow; She was muley when she's born
It took a jaybird forty year; To fly from horn to horn./Refrain:
Now if I had a needle and thread; As fine as I could sew
I'd sew my sweetheart to my back; And down the road I'd go./Refrain:
Old Rattler was a smart old dog; Even tho' he was blind
He wouldn't hurt one single thing; Tho' he was very fine.
One night I saw a big fat 'coon; Climb up in a tree
I called old Rattler right away; To get 'im down fer me.
But Rattler wouldn't do it; Because he liked that 'coon
I saw them walkin' paw in paw; Later by the light of the moon./Refrain:
Now old Rattler's dead and gone; Like all good dogs do
You better not act a dog yourself; Or you'll be goin' there too./Refrain:
As I said not being a player I will refrain from critique but he did play the guitar. He was not Les Paul,or Clapton by any strech but it was passable. Thinking back it is odd that they did not record it and sell it to the masses on tape even JP got a record deal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
If you mean her first post on that page (it's 3rd from the bottom), I did not
miss it. (If you mean another post, it's not on page 12.)
In that post, she asked if anyone played a guitar. She said he couldn't sing.
Actually, your exact post was
"Did anyone actually hear him play a guitar?
I read HER post just fine. I read the WORDS on your post just fine.
I missed that "
--> " meant "I did". Forgive me-I'm not used to that
particular piece of netslang. I thought you were WAVING, and it wasn't part of
the body of the post.
She seemed to read your post the same way I did-you asked the question, and
waved, being a friendly neighbor. Apparently, her netslang isn't up to snuff to
keep up with you either.
Ok, that answers the MAIN question. You were there and saw it. Personally, if you say you were there, your word isgood enough for me-I need no other confirmation.
Ok, that answers my OTHER question.
That is, he actually DID play the guitar, if not up to a professional standard,
but he did PLAY. (Probably knew 3 chords, could play backup in a pinch.)
His singing ability, I got from shazdancer, was something Simon Cowell would have
some unflattering terms for.
I can speculate why they didn't (HE didn't) try to release it as a record,
but I think I've used up my speculation quota for the rest of the day.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
the admission is:
I never heard that the Bible is the word of GOD
Then he goes on to say "not believing it anyway"
So if he had not believed it "anyway" that means thathe MUST HAVE HEARD IT before that day.
WHen you say "I didn't believe it anyway" what you are saying is, that something you heard previous to the current conversation appeared to be untrue in your estimation.
So what is actuality VPW was saying was
"I had heard the Bible was the WOrd of God but I didn't believe it"
Sounds to me like VP was claiming to be the modern day Saul--He never believed and suddenly GOd spoke directly to him.
THat could explain TWI'sobession with the letters of PAul to the exclusion of Jesus Christ.
VPW wasn't just teaching--in his mind he was the Spiritual equivalent of the Apostle Paul, in fact better--in "piffle" he was constantly pointing out where Paul had erred in his "walk" the implication being that he, VPW, would not have made such mistakes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Thanks WW - I had tried to use the copy and bold function - I had wanted to use the quote from the book - thanks for doing it for me! I'll figure it out sooner or later.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A la prochaine
PHEWWWWWW
OK, glad the 'did he' 'didn't he' play the guitar wars are over...
OK... about the "I had heard that the Bible was the Word of God but I didn't believe it" line...
in piffle...VP says...(this is the jist not word for word) that when he came out of seminary school he no longer believed the words "HOLY BIBLE" on the cover.
He said the reason for that was because they had studied so much 'around' the scriptures that he had more faith in what 'men' said about the Bible than what the 'Bible' had to say for itself.
Could this be what he was refering to?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Well the picture forum is down for the move but if I find the pict's I may post them if I can figure out how to on the new one. I did notice that on the one that was from the Way Magazine, I think he did have another guitar player with him which most likely gave the song a better sound.
Quote WordWolf: Ok, that answers my OTHER question.
That is, he actually DID play the guitar, if not up to a professional standard,
but he did PLAY. (Probably knew 3 chords, could play backup in a pinch.)
His singing ability, I got from shazdancer, was something Simon Cowell would have
some unflattering terms for.
I can speculate why they didn't (HE didn't) try to release it as a record,
but I think I've used up my speculation quota for the rest of the day. Quote:
I'd say that was a fair rendering of the song that cowboy one two three strum.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
I don't think so, would be interesting to find out which statement came first.
Even if he believed what "men" said about the Bible, he still would have heard that the BIble was the word of GOd. I seriously can't believe that from 1942 and before he would have failed to hear this point in some fashion or another.
If he were perceptive enough to have noticed at the time that they were talking "around" scripture, VPW, who preached to the trees, and told visting preachers that he wanted to be like them would have noticed.
He also makes a point that he had never heard that the bible is the WOrd of God in statement one.
In statement two he implies that he at one time knew and believed that the Bible was the word of God and through Seminary lost that faith.
THe two statements just don't mesh
Either
A) at one time he knew the Bible was the Word of God and lost that belief. In which case the statement would have been about regaining faith in the Bible being the Word of God NOT about never knowing about it being the word of GOD
or
B) He never believed period.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
I saw VP and JP play the guitar at a family table at ROA in 78 or 79. TWI took a pic and used it in their promos.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penguin
UMMMM
Bear with me then.. If vp didn't believe the Bible was theWord of God until 1942...what did he base his teaching of the tithe to his brand new congregation on (in 1941)? Maybe this really does show his motivation after all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
I heard that VPW had played guitar though ,personally, I never heard him play. I do recall that his comment about "laying down the guitar " was used a great deal by WOWs and Corps as an example of sacrifice -as if VPW had some preternatural ability for guitar and made the ultimate sacrifice by denying his "immense talent" for music (and basketball) in favor of servitude to God. I later learned that his musical abilites were ,at best, average and , in general, quite mediocre. Of course during the "good ole days" (early to mid 70s) VPW could do no wrong and was openly worshipped as a valid substitute for the "absent christ" though that phrase had yet to come into vogue. However I do recall that Stacey Bowen once said that "you don't have Jesus or Paul but you do have Doctor Wierwille". That comment made me ill though the bulk of the people enthusiastically applauded. How whacked was that ?
Worse I once heard a starstruck WOW say that something to the effect of "Doctor is so right on that he can check out scenes and situations that ,for you and me (the average believer) , would mean that we be out of fellowship. But not for Doctor". Of course later this type of thinking was used by Way leadership to justify their licentious behavior.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A la prochaine
OK.....I have only ONE question...Why in the he!! did VP take so much from this WOMAN? Up until now...VP has no respect for woman. Suddenly, this lady is lacing into him...and she's the best thing since sliced bread. hmmmmmmmmmm????
-->
The forgiveness word REALLY caught my eye. Here is a man that is sure of his beliefs...he's taking a stand ... he's telling the religious leaders where to go and setting them straight.
Now he wants forgiveness??? For what?
Someone feels guilty? What about?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Good question, ala.
Good question.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Yep. Very, very interesting.. maybe it "turned him on".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
That's how I see it, too.
(Once it was pointed out.)
And, don't forget, it was FOUR teachings,
according to him.
=====
On Rinker, it will help for me to dig up another
source....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I found this in our threads. It's from SNT 214, 10/17/65,
"Light Began to Dawn". vpw, as usual, was speaking.
=======
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
So let me get this straight-- Rosalind served on the mission field for SIXTEEN YEARS before she was converted??!?!?!?!?
So if you had any depth of sprituality you "prayed about it" but she didn't need to pray. So I take it from this, that it was VPW's contention that people who didn't pray about his requests had more spritual depth than those who did??!?!?!
Ahh there is the VPW we know and "love"
Okay, wait a minute, I thought this was the night she showed VPW that the word was from GOD-becuase He hadn't known that before
NOw he is saying that she showed him that he should teach the WOrd -- not a single thing in this whole speech about not knowing the Bible was the word of GOD.
That's the problem with "creative license" in your life , you keep losing track of where you created something other than the truth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A la prochaine
WW,
Why the double post? Is there something in the second post that I was suppose read???
Just curious.
Don't want to miss anything.
Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I MEANT to provide the longer post,
then a trimmer post with emphases.
I got sidetracked.
Let me go add the emphases where I saw them
(which may not be where they are NEEDED.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Here's the rundown on what I thought was particularly noteworthy...
-she wanted to deal ONLY with him, focusing all her attention on
Mr Humility. Of COURSE he went along.
-yes, he was surprised a woman knew the Bible
-he snuck in references to his attending seminarIES and collegeS
-There's a set of odd, CONSISTENT phrases here.
She "wound him around her finger".
She "pinned him down" -TWICE he says that.
she "backed him up against the wall"
Then they were alone, up after everyone went to sleep.
It's at THIS time where the previous question-
'why is he asking for forgiveness NOW?'-
becomes current.
Is his subconscious choosing of words telling us more than he
meant to? What happened after everyone went to sleep?
And did getting away with it help to make it easier to do again
later to other people?
Remember-he's a control freak.
Who did what, and to whom?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Thanks, WW and ala. I'd always wondered what that ol' misogynist had really been doing with Rosalind Rinker. I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.