"It's still just mainly an ego trip for them because it's how they
look to other men that counts to them.
And with VPW it was
how he looked to Leonard
How he looked to Fugit
How he looked to MArtindale
how he looked to Geer
HOw he looked to us
How he looked to the BOT
ETC, ETC, ETC
And IF, perish the thought , someone noticed that the emperor had no clothes, it was off with their heads
Because it was not how he actually looked--- he was ready, willing and able to tell everyone exactly HOW he looked ---and Heaven help the dissenter who lacked the same vision
"But you get tired. The other night I was so tired
I couldn't even find the books of the Bible. When you work so
hard, everyone loves you;"
[ What was he working so hard at when reading the Bible?
According to what he was JUST saying, he was implying the
youngsters were lazy when they wanted to study the Bible
rather than do manual labour. (And wasn't the Bible-studying
why they were there?)
So, when a youngster does it, it's laziness.
When vpw does it, it is hard work that makes you tired.
Nice double-standard.]
" but when you get right down to it, it's
you and God to handle that Word, and you have to make it live
with the renewed mind. That's what's really important. And other
of life's tinsel just doesn't count against the greatness of the
Word of God."
"This is the greatest loving ministry in the world-and the most
lonesome walk. I suppose it's like being an athlete. In football,
there are eleven, in basketball, five; but when you teach, it's
just you and Daddy."
["This is the greatest loving ministry in the world".
Here's ANOTHER one of the "best in the world" claims vpw
made a LOT.
Further, this ministry relied on rules over "loving", even then.
"House of Acts" was a loving ministry.
Also, if any ministry is a "lonesome walk", then the people
in charge are failing to run it correctly. It's supposed to be
a FAMILY thing, that means it's groups, not a "lonesome walk".
A "lonesome walk" is a cowboy or other "tough guy"
who wants to show how tough he is.
It's a uniquely American form of error.
Europeans like the Vikings had sayings like
"bare is the back that has no brother",
and they were considered pretty tough.
So, vpw is exhausted from reading his Bible,
and he's some sort of maverick.
At least, that's what he wants us to believe.
Didn't hw JUST finish complaining about ego
and appearances?]
"Lots of people love you for the Word you teach, but when it comes
right down to it, it's just you. You stand and you walk. You
teach what they can take. And sometimes you know a whole lot more.
Things you could open your heart on, you never do, to those depths
of perception. You go so far. You know the abundance available and
the Father says, 'That's all folks! End of show.' nd it's
something you cannot describe to people. Just you and Father know."
====
Man, I can't hear the sounds of the violin music over the earth
shaking there...
==========
==========
"Things you could open your heart on, you never do, to those depths
of perception. You go so far. You know the abundance available and
the Father says, 'That's all folks! End of show.' And it's
something you cannot describe to people. Just you and Father know."
"cannot" describe.. good grief. He seems to stop short of claiming he went to the "third heaven and earth" like John and Paul.. sees "undescribable" glory or something.
But I can bet money that I know of at least one person who thinks that's EXACTLY what
he said, meant and did.
Which, IMHO, was exactly the reason he made the vague, inflated claim...
Yep. Like he WAS a John, or a Paul..sure left a lot to the imagination.
I remember a couple of people claiming how great vic was, because he did indeed "see it".
The claim didn't exactly square with his self-confessed lack of knowledge about the book of Revelation and the end times..
A difference TWI abhorred--no poor- no downtrodden, no empty wallets for them
You put out the bait, and it's different for different fish
.
Really??? I always figured the gospel was the same for everyone--OOPS silly Me
You put it out, and our bait is the best.
OUR BAIT --Not the Word of God
You dangle it here, tease it a little, get the hunger up
.
Dangling??? Teasing?? Cause people to hunger??? Christ would be appalled
Then when you get a fish on the line, you pull it in
.
Christ never trapped anyone--He preached freely and those who would follow did--no barbed hooks and lines dragging them into his followers
Some you play with
.
Yup-real godliness in that
Some get away from you,
Lucky them
but they keep coming back, and you just gotta keep the bait there all the time.
Once having escaped the Clutches of TWI not many of us have ever come back. Ditto fish--once they feel the hook they look elsewhere for a meal unless they are very young and very dumb--But say that is what VPW preyed on isn't it??
This has been a very insightful analysis by WW of TWI's early 70's marketing tool, Whitesides' TWLIL.All that follows is my personal opinions on these matters.The foregoing analysis of Whitesides' TWLIL, demonstrates the numerous deceptive inconsistencies, haughty exaggerations, slimy half-truths, wanton plagarism, & blatant lies of narcissistic megalomaniacal sociopathic VP Wierwille. In a rare instance of internal consistency, TWI now continues in their time-honored covert strategy of exploitative manipulations of its rank and file members.VPW & LCM would say that Way Corps leadership in top positions are men & women of a ‘ special mould.’ TWI everywhere sets out to ‘produce’ [indoctrinate] men & women of this so-called special mould. To a large degree, an observer of the TWI cultic scene can see that TWI frequently succeeds in this covert, exploitative endeavor to the detriment of many rank & file adherents. The man or woman [‘Waybot’] molded by TWI, the new 'leader,' is a formidable man indeed. He is cast in the opposite mould to the traditional 'New Man in Christ,' because TWI’s ‘christ’ is a recycled hybridized pagan god, with characteristics of Osirus, Dionysis, Mithra, Adonis, Pan, Hermes, & other demigods. Even though a person’s original motivation, upon being deceived into joining TWI, may have been altruistic, even though this person retains much of his or her initial youthful idealism and sense of oneness with suffering humanity in the valley of human need, still, because that person has been indoctrinated to adhere to TWI’s contaminated pseudo-spiritual deeds. that person’s life tends to become contaminated with TWI's oppresive mindset. Therefore the mould into which the TWI leader is pressed is one that ultimately debases him or her as a person.Part of the tragedy of TWI is that it takes good men & women, with good intentions, and exploitatively uses & abuses them for the corrupt cause of fallacious pseudo-spiritual practices. The tragic consequence of these TWI enforced practices is that the idealistic leaders, who join or adhere to TWI, set out to be the saviours of humanity and become instead men’s jailers. TWI stands condemned, not only for the problems it has caused the societies of the USA and other nations around the world, but also for the phenomenal psychological damages it has caused in the non-consenting, individual TWI adherents themselves. The WAY “MINISTRY” in actuality is nothing more than a cultic, multi-level marketing- racketeering scam at best with a thin veneer of Hermitically oriented, ‘ white-washed’ & ‘ redefined’ biblical terms. NO genuine, lasting virtue has come about due to the existence of TWI. It did in fact between ~1967 to ~1972 attract some people who had a desire to serve God, but a critical mass of these people had been witnessed to by non-TWI people such as Jimmy Doop, Steve Heefner, & Ted Wise. These movements were later invaded by avaricious power-hungry Wierwille. Wierwille-TWI essentially stole these people from those simple, grassroots ministries. In significant part due to the presence of Doop, Heefner, Wise & their followers, as well as the exuberance of their unmistakable presence, many of the PFAL classes of this time period generated a great excitement, more so in spite of Wierwille than due to him & to his supposed original “research” (but in actuality it was almost entirely plagiarized). Certain honest individuals, comprised of the Doop/Heefner/Wise derivatives, as well as many who became involved directly by Wierwille’s PFAL series, were the pure-hearted people in our local areas that created the positive environment that appealed to the transient vulnerabilities of so many of us. Then TWI, primarily via Wierwille & later Martindale, those despicable wolves in sheep’s clothing, surreptitiously ‘ taught & trained’ us by way of various exploitative programs {via VPW's PFAL series, the WOW program, the Fellowlaborers’ program, the Way Corps & College Division programs, LCM's WAP series, TWI-II, & many other scenarios} which were ALL disguised TWI indoctrination. The proceeds & benefits of these clandestine programs & MLM operations went not to the TWI-claimed beneficiaries, the rank-and-file affiliates of TWI, but rather went to the TWI Board of Trustees & other high level TWI leadership for their own selfish interests. TWI ‘redefined’ & hence contaminated the supposed 'grace of God' as a hook of vulnerability on the front side, only to later bait & switch it to oppressive hyper-legalism replete with TWI-exit phobia on the far side of this despicable victimization. This oppressive legalism (the supposed ‘teeth’ Wierwille began speaking of around 1967 to 1972) was originally most visible in the Way Corps in the 1970’s, but after the 1989 LCM loyalty demand, & in/after the Fall of 1995, when LCM began his ‘mark & avoid’- enforced extreme obedience demands (among many other abusive & harmful practices), the end result for those of us who in good faith held out to the bitter end, is that we have essentially nothing to show for our TWI servitude except for the psychological & emotional wounds (damages) with which TWI has so disgracefully left us. This does not even begin to account for all of our good-faith financial contributions (tithing & abundant sharing) & our irreversibly lost time (both economic & emotional equivalents implied) stolen from us during our affiliation with The Way International, Inc.One can now easily determine this cult’s supposed “spiritual” benevolence is not altruistic at all, but is rather strategically rigged cons and scams to make a financial profit off of an unaware one, without one’s informed consent. Further, if JUSTICE is to be done, exploitation attempts by TWI should be, and must be met with equilibrating RECIPROCAL CONFRONTATION & REPROOF, preferably of the legal remedy variety. One could perceive that it was her or his delightful duty to society to pounce on these cultic degenerate scum with the vengeance of an aggressive legal counterattack.
jkboehme - whoa - excellent analysis. Far more articulate than I could put into words.
From my own "researching" of the "Jesus Movement" I learned the main people who started it in California truly did have a "call" from God. You had Chuck Smith, Lonnie Frisbee, Ted Wise, Doop and Heefner - they were the stalwarts - the men called and the men who God choose to reach a generation.
I find it interesting that VP went to California with the express purpose of contacting these men and playing PFAL for them. Smith, Frisbee and Wise had doctrinal differences after a few sessions and left. These men's churches are still thriving and going strong today - the Vineyard, and I forget the name of the other one. I too feel that VP, as a wolf, came in and through charm, personality, false spiritual "heaviness" was able to lure two of the other men to come after him and used them for his gain and to grow TWI. Both of them wised up early on though. But as one who was born again under Heefner's ministry, for him I will always be thankful - what an incredible man he and his wife Sandy were.
I too have found this analysis fascinating. Now that I am older and wiser, it is so easy to see through the BS in the book. It was purposefully written to attract us. I also wonder, how someone like EW, the author, who wrote for prestigious pulblications like the NY Times and others, as a professional journalist, could write such a fluffy PR book. She was not a youngster like we are. Maybe she was paid - who knows.
Excellent post! I hope you don't mind, but I broke it out into paragraphs so that more people will read it (some of us are pretty particular about things being easy to read :) )
I also bolded some of your points that I'd like to comment on later:
This has been a very insightful analysis by WW of TWI's early 70's marketing tool, Whitesides' TWLIL. All that follows is my personal opinions on these matters. The foregoing analysis of Whitesides' TWLIL, demonstrates the numerous deceptive inconsistencies, haughty exaggerations, slimy half-truths, wanton plagarism, & blatant lies of narcissistic megalomaniacal sociopathic VP Wierwille. In a rare instance of internal consistency, TWI now continues in their time-honored covert strategy of exploitative manipulations of its rank and file members.
So, how do you really feel? :ph34r: It's also all too true that TWI does continue to exploit, manipulate and abuse the rank and file. What's sad is that so many have been in for so long that one would hope they would eventually recognize it, but they are most likely so beat down that they can't see their way out or recognize what "normal" is anymore.
VPW & LCM would say that Way Corps leadership in top positions are men & women of a ‘ special mould.’ TWI everywhere sets out to ‘produce’ [indoctrinate]men & women of this so-called special mould.
To a large degree, an observer of the TWI cultic scene can see that TWI frequently succeeds in this covert, exploitative endeavor to the detriment of many rank & file adherents. The man or woman [‘Waybot’] molded by TWI, the new 'leader,' is a formidable man indeed. He is cast in the opposite mould to the traditional 'New Man in Christ,' because TWI’s ‘christ’ is a recycled hybridized pagan god, with characteristics of Osirus, Dionysis, Mithra, Adonis, Pan, Hermes, & other demigods.
That is THE BEST description of TWI's "christ" that I think I've ever seen!
Even though a person’s original motivation, upon being deceived into joining TWI, may have been altruistic, even though this person retains much of his or her initial youthful idealism and sense of oneness with suffering humanity in the valley of human need, still, because that person has been indoctrinated to adhere to TWI’s contaminated pseudo-spiritual deeds. that person’s life tends to become contaminated with TWI's oppresive mindset. Therefore the mould into which the TWI leader is pressed is one that ultimately debases him or her as a person.
Many leaders also become so accustomed to their god-like status and easy money that they quickly forget about their original motivations. They begin to focus on what they have to do to keep the lifestyle they've grown to expect.
Part of the tragedy of TWI is that it takes good men & women, with good intentions, and exploitatively uses & abuses them for the corrupt cause of fallacious pseudo-spiritual practices. The tragic consequence of these TWI enforced practices is that the idealistic leaders, who join or adhere to TWI, set out to be the saviours of humanity and become instead men’s jailers.
True. There are young people today I know who have gone through the WC program with dreams of redirecting the ship. They are already so oppressed and debased that it's only a matter of time until they sink into the depths of the current pathetic leadership or jump ship because of the futility of their goals. This is the organization that vee pee built, created and promoted. It's operating exactly the same way he intended.
TWI stands condemned, not only for the problems it has caused the societies of the USA and other nations around the world, but also for the phenomenal psychological damages it has caused in the non-consenting, individual TWI adherents themselves. The WAY “MINISTRY” in actuality is nothing more than a cultic, multi-level marketing- racketeering scam at best with a thin veneer of Hermitically oriented, ‘ white-washed’ & ‘ redefined’ biblical terms. NO genuine, lasting virtue has come about due to the existence of TWI.
It did in fact between ~1967 to ~1972 attract some people who had a desire to serve God, but a critical mass of these people had been witnessed to by non-TWI people such as Jimmy Doop, Steve Heefner, & Ted Wise. These movements were later invaded by avaricious power-hungry Wierwille. Wierwille-TWI essentially stole these people from those simple, grassroots ministries. In significant part due to the presence of Doop, Heefner, Wise & their followers, as well as the exuberance of their unmistakable presence, many of the PFAL classes of this time period generated a great excitement, more so in spite of Wierwille than due to him & to his supposed original “research” (but in actuality it was almost entirely plagiarized).
He certainly recognized the qualities he didn't have, but the qualities that were attracting people. He took advantage of the honest and true to exploit them and to expand his base of people to exploit. The quotes here prove that.
Certain honest individuals, comprised of the Doop/Heefner/Wise derivatives, as well as many who became involved directly by Wierwille’s PFAL series, were the pure-hearted people in our local areas that created the positive environment that appealed to the transient vulnerabilities of so many of us. Then TWI, primarily via Wierwille & later Martindale, those despicable wolves in sheep’s clothing, surreptitiously ‘ taught & trained’ us by way of various exploitative programs {via VPW's PFAL series, the WOW program, the Fellowlaborers’ program, the Way Corps & College Division programs, LCM's WAP series, TWI-II, & many other scenarios} which were ALL disguised TWI indoctrination.
The proceeds & benefits of these clandestine programs & MLM operations went not to the TWI-claimed beneficiaries, the rank-and-file affiliates of TWI, but rather went to the TWI Board of Trustees & other high level TWI leadership for their own selfish interests.
And who started that? Where did they learn this selfishness? VPW with all his laziness and greed. Evil communications definitely corrupt good morals and those who couldn't be corrupted wisely left because they recognized the futility of trying to fight it.
TWI ‘redefined’ & hence contaminated the supposed 'grace of God' as a hook of vulnerability on the front side, only to later bait & switch it to oppressive hyper-legalism replete with TWI-exit phobia on the far side of this despicable victimization. This oppressive legalism (the supposed ‘teeth’ Wierwille began speaking of around 1967 to 1972) was originally most visible in the Way Corps in the 1970’s, but after the 1989 LCM loyalty demand, & in/after the Fall of 1995, when LCM began his ‘mark & avoid’- enforced extreme obedience demands (among many other abusive & harmful practices), the end result for those of us who in good faith held out to the bitter end, is that we have essentially nothing to show for our TWI servitude except for the psychological & emotional wounds (damages) with which TWI has so disgracefully left us.
This does not even begin to account for all of our good-faith financial contributions (tithing & abundant sharing) & our irreversibly lost time (both economic & emotional equivalents implied) stolen from us during our affiliation with The Way International, Inc. One can now easily determine this cult’s supposed “spiritual” benevolence is not altruistic at all, but is rather strategically rigged cons and scams to make a financial profit off of an unaware one, without one’s informed consent.
Further, if JUSTICE is to be done, exploitation attempts by TWI should be, and must be met with equilibrating RECIPROCAL CONFRONTATION & REPROOF, preferably of the legal remedy variety. One could perceive that it was her or his delightful duty to society to pounce on these cultic degenerate scum with the vengeance of an aggressive legal counterattack.
jkboehme - whoa - excellent analysis. Far more articulate than I could put into words.
From my own "researching" of the "Jesus Movement" I learned the main people who started it in California truly did have a "call" from God. You had Chuck Smith, Lonnie Frisbee, Ted Wise, Doop and Heefner - they were the stalwarts - the men called and the men who God choose to reach a generation.
I find it interesting that VP went to California with the express purpose of contacting these men and playing PFAL for them. Smith, Frisbee and Wise had doctrinal differences after a few sessions and left. These men's churches are still thriving and going strong today - the Vineyard, and I forget the name of the other one. I too feel that VP, as a wolf, came in and through charm, personality, false spiritual "heaviness" was able to lure two of the other men to come after him and used them for his gain and to grow TWI. Both of them wised up early on though. But as one who was born again under Heefner's ministry, for him I will always be thankful - what an incredible man he and his wife Sandy were.
I too have found this analysis fascinating. Now that I am older and wiser, it is so easy to see through the BS in the book. It was purposefully written to attract us. I also wonder, how someone like EW, the author, who wrote for prestigious pulblications like the NY Times and others, as a professional journalist, could write such a fluffy PR book. She was not a youngster like we are. Maybe she was paid - who knows.
umm, twi is bad, m-kay?
twi is the umm, the way international, m-kay?
twi is a cult, m-kay?
cults are bad, m-kay?
so just so we're on the same page uhh, umm, twi is a bad cult, m-kay?
Even though a person’s original motivation, upon being deceived into joining TWI, may have been altruistic, even though this person retains much of his or her initial youthful idealism and sense of oneness with suffering humanity in the valley of human need, still, because that person has been indoctrinated to adhere to TWI’s contaminated pseudo-spiritual deeds. that person’s life tends to become contaminated with TWI's oppresive mindset. Therefore the mould into which the TWI leader is pressed is one that ultimately debases him or her as a person.
I could not agree with this quote more.
I can think of no greater debasement, than to be used by a paid minister of The Way International to convey threats of death to a Way follower who was not toeing the line.
I think that is probably the lowest spot I hit while still a leader within The Way International, when I actually carried out Mxrk Wxllxce's directives toward a person under my responsibility. I heard what Wxllxce said, I knew deep inside me that what Wxllxce was ordering me to say to this poor man was so absolutely cruel, and everything in me cried out that it was wrong, yet I still carried it out, against my own conscience, in obedience to the minister to whom I was held accountable.
How does a person with a pure heart whose prime motivation is only to help others, get to the point that they carry out policy that is so absolutely detrimental?
You go through The Way Corps. You discipline yourself to what they tell you to do, because you want to be a faithful leader for God, deemed worthy and entrusted to serve his people, to bind up their wounds, to set them free.
Once there, you learn to blindly obey. And you are forced to maim and imprison innocent followers, while your tortured conscience screams and writhes in pain inside your paralyzed mind.
That is contamination, robbing both leader and follower of their humanity, and their dignity.
To all who have responded to this thread, I suggest reading Karl Kahler/Carl Collyer's The Cult That Snapped
A Journey into The Way International,especially the Chronolgy(pp.i-v); Chapter 2, pp.7-10;Chapter 4, pp.31-
50; Chapter 6, pp.55-76; Chapter 8, pp.93-112; Chapter 10, pp.117-130; and Chapter 13, pp. 167-184.
Titles for above mentioned chapters are A Lot of Stuff Kids ; He did it His Way ; The Hippies Turn on ; The teeth of God's Love ; Rows of Weapons ; and The master Student, plus postscript entitled Millennium on pages 271-274.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shazdancer:<BR>I see that Wierwille figured out a way to never have to pay taxes on his home, but still live in luxury in it for the rest of his life. Servants to tend to his every (every!) need, and workers to maintain every inch of the farm in better shape than it had ever been before. The only drawback was that his heirs would never get it when he was gone. And if his wife should survive him, her living there would be at the whim of the organization.<BR><BR>And that is exactly what happened. When Mrs. W became too much of a burden, they tossed her out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree, furthermore,<BR>having finished this book, I have the distinct impression that vpw<BR>made so many inflated claims about himself that, eventually, he <BR>bought into his own press releases, and considered it inconceivable<BR>that his name wouldn't continue to cause people to cower in a <BR>prostrate manner in perpetuity. If that was completely true, there<BR>would be no worries about Mrs W. <BR>As it was, it's still partially true-there are still vpw worshippers<BR>around the world.
Testify, WW! <BR><BR>Lessee, he was 24 years old, already has a wife and child to support, just out of college, and he ticks off his first pastorate by teaching nothing but the one thing they said not to teach on... real responsible.<BR><BR>Then only one year later, he's frustrated?<BR><BR>I also got a kick out of his "pretending" to speak in tongues by speaking Greek, then Hebrew. We'd all heard how fluent Wierwille was in those languages, he must've really fooled them... <!--graemlin:--><BR><BR>And by the bye, his name-dropping, embellishment of the facts (lying), low frustration tolerance and looking for the easiest way to success are typical behavior for people with narcissistic personality.
Well,<BR>it wasn't exactly on topic for this thread (at least until we discuss the exact<BR>quote), but you brought it up.....<BR>=====<BR>Could God make it snow for any of us? <BR>I believe all the Christians here will say "yes".<BR>(I'm supposing that you mean the "snow on the pumps".<BR>The Tulsa snow job was confirmed to be a untruth in great detail.)<BR><BR>There's several sub-issues here. Was this supposedly REAL snow, or a VISION of snow?<BR>All indications SEEM to be that it's supposed to be REAL snow. <BR>If it WAS, then it arrived in exactly ONE spot, with some of it instantly on the<BR>ground, and some of it heavy in the air. It then VANISHED. <BR>Could God do that? Well, yes. Whether you think God would go thru all that trouble<BR>when a VISION would work as well is a matter of opinion.<BR><BR>If it was a VISION, then this goes back to the original question-<BR>which it would anyway. The supposed snow was to confirm that God would teach <BR>vpw God's Word like it had not been known since the 1st century, if vpw would teach<BR>it to others. <BR><BR>The teachings and practices vpw taught and instituted bear NO resemblance to the<BR>1st century church. <BR>They decentralized authority-he concentrated it in one person-himself.<BR>They spread out the money where there was need-vpw concentrated it at hq, where it<BR>STAYED.<BR>Their leaders led austere lives, Paul working a secular job at one point.<BR>vpw piled up luxuries for himself of nearly every kind.<BR>Their emphasis was on spiritual basics. vpw emphasized intellectual study.<BR>They had signs, miracles and wonders as day-to-day events. vpw-well, I suppose he <BR>saw a FEW here and there. <BR><BR>Furthermore, <BR>"The Word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century" is a FICTION. In the 1st<BR>century, they had the Old Testament (the Torah), and a few of the letters where they<BR>could be found. It sounds like such a neat slogan, though.....<BR><BR>Finally, although vpw taught others, EVERYTHING he taught (95% at the bare minimum)<BR>can be traced DIRECTLY to the work of ANOTHER Christian which was ALREADY in effect<BR>at the time. pfal was an cut-and-paste of the work (primarily) BG Leonard-<BR>whose class vpw copied over word-for-word originally, and thus it was known to all<BR>students of BG Leonard before vpw came around-<BR>(secondarily) EW Bullinger-whose books had been around for perhaps half-a-century<BR>before vpw heard of him, thus it was known to all his readers-<BR>(tertially) JE Stiles-whose work and book on the holy spirit were ALSO in effect<BR>long before, and whose book "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" was copied over almost <BR>word-for-word into the 1st edition of the White Book. <BR><BR>Thus, the only things that had not "been known" before vpw ripped off the works of<BR>others was a handful of names-"manifestation","administration"-if those weren't a<BR>direct ripoff of someone else as well. Thus, the entire 1942 promise completely<BR>failed to come to pass. vpw taught others, but at no point did he teach them <BR>"God's Word as it has not been known since the 1st century" (for all the reasons I<BR>just gave.) Since God does not fail His promises, the logical conclusion is that this<BR>was NOT a promise of God. According to Scripture, if a man claims to speak in the<BR>name of the LORD and what he says does NOT come to pass, then he is a FALSE PROPHET. <BR>The only question then remaining is: <BR>Did vpw invent this 1942 promise?<BR>or did vpw receive a vision from a source other than the True God?<BR><BR>The possibility of him actually receiving this as revelation from God, as you see,<BR>is excluded based on its phrasing and its results.<BR><BR>Given that BG Leonard wrote something similar, vpw read his book, and, some years<BR>later began making this promise, it is most likely that vpw intentionally made it up<BR>based on BG Leonard's writings.<BR><BR>=======<BR>Knowing all this, you of course may STILL believe God made it snow for him.<BR>However, all the evidence argues AGAINST it. <BR>Just as Sarah did not exercise "blind faith", but rather <BR>"judged Him faithful who had promised" (aka GOD), most of us will choose to <BR>"exercise our senses to discern good and evil"<BR>and say this is so unlikely based on a MOUNTAIN of evidence, that it's not even<BR>worth considering once it's been exposed.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's when I resigned in 1957 and we moved to that house on South Washington<BR>Street. I asked twelve people to stand with me for one year. But many of them<BR>were not in the church. I was still hung up on the denomination. I told others<BR>to stay with the church. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>So.......after FOUR years of "pfal" still very interest or involvement.<BR><BR>So.......in 1957, veepee finally cut the church umbilical cord.<BR><BR>So.......twi really DID NOT start in 1942 if the HONEST TRUTH WERE TOLD.
What struck me as odd with the Corps experience is I saw many intelligent and well off people go into the Corps. By the time they graduated, they looked so shabby [except for the suits and long dresses].<BR><BR>Because they were instructed to be *extremely* frugal, they got their clothing by swapping with each other or by what was left behind from previous Corps folks.<BR><BR>I remember this one elegant person; she went in with beautiful clothing and well kept [and current] hairstyle.<BR><BR>I attended a meeting she held after her graduation. She was in an outfit that was at least 10 years out of style, it was too tight, and all the wrong colors for her. Her hair was in serious need of repair! She looked old. <BR><BR>And all the while spouting the MORE than abundant life!! This gal was a successful businesswoman who had sold all her earthly possessions to go Way Corps.<BR><BR>Man, talk about wielding guilt with scripture---sell all your possessions. Sheesh, that was at a particular time with Jesus, and VP ain't no Jesus!!!
*does a search*<BR>Hm. A few people had some relevant comments.<BR>GrouchoMarxJr: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...And another thing that bugged the &$*# out of me while in<BR>residence, were their bait and switch tactics. When I signed up, I made a FOUR YEAR<BR>commitment. That was it! It was optional to take assignments upon graduation...at<BR>least, that's what they said in WRITING! A couple of months into the training, at<BR>Emporia, they tell us all that we have made a LIFETIME commitment to the corps!...<BR>and if we don't "understand THAT"...then we are "spiritually out to lunch." I sat <BR>there listening to this crap, muttering under my breath that I only committed<BR>for 4 years, getting angrier by the moment as everybody just sat there with a<BR>glazed look on their faces saying "yup, yup"...not me! I regret not packing my<BR>stuff up and splitting right then and there! </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Skyrider's reply to that quote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Manipulation-mongers! They waited a couple months and then, slam-dunk our<BR>commitment level when we are behind CLOSED DOORS and surrounded by PEER PRESURE.<BR>What a bunch of low-life tactics!<BR>Was this tactic used in the zero corps? And, everyone left???<BR>When the atrocities of the corps program are exposed...vpw was a major player in<BR>scamming people. He may have been on the stage a lot, but some of us know that vpw<BR>could easily hide in the shadows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Skyrider had also said <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> By the early 80s...the term cop out had <BR>gained legs...and had evolved to mean...any corps person or corps grad who<BR>quit taking assignments was a cop out.<BR>Twi changed the parameters.<BR>Now, it was a LIFETIME COMMITMENT to stand with twi.<BR>And, that labelling is still in effect to this day. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Shazdancer said <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I was committed to God long before I went into the Corps. <BR>I signed up for Recognized Family Corps because I wanted the in-depth knowledge <BR>that the Corps was supposedly being taught, before my husband and I were to join<BR>Staff. We were accepted into the Corps on that basis. I still have a Recognized<BR>Corps certificate to prove it. <BR>Long after our in-res year, a couple of Corps leaders tried to explain to me that<BR>I had made a lifetime commitment to the Corps program--to submit to evaluations,<BR>and go to any and go to any Corps meetings that were required. Silly me for <BR>requiring them to honor their agreement with me.<BR>I am just as committed to doing good and respecting God as I ever was, I just don't<BR>express it in the same way that I did while in TWI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>igotout explained <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">what Skyrider is alluding to is that the Way Corps <BR>"commitment" we originally made became a "we own you and you WILL do what we say<BR>for the rest of your lives" commitment.<BR>And if you didn't like it then you were dropped from the Corps if not kicked out<BR>all together from TWI. That's pure BS.<BR>Originally back when larger groups of us were going into the Corps by the hundreds<BR>(I was in the 7th, I believe Sky was in the 9th) it was not implied that there<BR>would be this "dog soldier leash" around your life after you graduated. Only<BR>much later did this become specifically stated. <BR><BR>Heck I remember LCM stating one evening at a Corps meeting in Emporia...<BR>"not all of you can become branch leaders. Many of you need to go out and get<BR>jobs and careers and go to college." <BR><BR>Well some of us did. Later we were resented for it. Yes it was implied that once<BR>Corps always Corps. No prob. Think Marine Corps. You have had the training and <BR>served your country and now you serve in society as a better man for it.<BR><BR>It was more promoted as another program like WOW or other such ministry <BR>commitments. A Wow Vet was not under this short leash and control, for example to<BR>move every three years and such. Yet he is still a Wow Vet. I still have one of <BR>the old Corps Vet tee shirts which I would bet they discontinued in latter years.<BR><BR>A lifetime of Christiand service? No prob...Still doing the best I can. A <BR>lifetime of volunteer enslavement on a dog's leash?<BR>No way, Rosie! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Our Dad said 'You haven't even learned to work well on the farm. <BR>You'll never make a good preacher.' </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>vpw would have agreed that young vpw would "never make a good <BR>preacher." He said of such youngsters as himself:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He didn't know how to work. But I knew you had to have<BR>discipline, self-discipline, to really work that Word and learn.<BR>If you can't work in a field or dig a ditch for a day, what kind<BR>of discipline would you have working the Word of God? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Since that's a rhetorical question, he's saying that you are not<BR>a fit workman of God's Word if you are lazy to work. His father<BR>agreed, and said vpw was such a person. Therefore, by his OWN<BR>"standards", vpw was an unfit workman. <BR>ALP said <BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BR>NOW this quote flabbergasted me <!--graemlin::eek:--><BR>VP was the king of saying how he knew how to work because he had lived on a farm...he knew the meaning of a hard days work, he could work that word because he had been taught how to work and work hard. <BR><BR>He was always touting himself about how he KNEW what it took to be a worker, and that that is what the corps was supposed to teach us slobs who didn't know how to pick up a shovel! </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>So, it looks hypocritical of him to say that, and it looks like <BR>he lied to everyone. So far, that seems to be his standard M.O.-<BR>order people around, lie to them and make himself look as great<BR>as possible, telling whichever lies will make that work.<BR><BR>I also think it's mildly ironic that the guy lecturing others on<BR>"self-discipline" was a lifelong chainsmoker and chronic drinker,<BR>to the point that his organs suffered permanent damage and killed<BR>him fairly young-and he had access to EXCELLENT healthcare!
And here's my uninterrupted "trans-a-lation" all together.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> <BR> When in high school, vpw was a bully, a physical showoff, and a<BR>braggart. He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick<BR>to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. <BR><BR> One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the<BR>streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention.<BR><BR>When he entered the seminary, everyone thought it was a joke, since<BR>he was completely lacking in the proper character-it was common <BR>knowledge. He never overcame the impression he had built over years<BR>in that area. <BR><BR> From the time he took over his first pastorate, he wasted little<BR>time in being a control freak and bully AGAIN.<BR><BR>He did his best to maintain a high degree of control over his <BR>pastorate. <BR><BR>vpw had a mad-on for what he considered Catholic traditions and pagan<BR>introduced-practices that he never let people just enjoy a normal<BR>holiday like all the other Christians. <BR><BR>Through the early 1950's, his conduct and behaviour improved a lot.<BR>It was uncharacteristic of the person he showed himself to be earlier. <BR><BR>He was a difficult husband to his wife. I'm amazed she put up with<BR>him, with the way he behaved.<BR><BR>This improvement in his behaviour didn't improve his vocabulary in<BR>all the important ways. He still chose to introduce sexual concepts in<BR>SNS teachings, which even his fans admit wasn't a good thing.<BR><BR> Uncle Harry helped moderate vpw's extreme style and policies.<BR>Uncle Harry let people celebrate Christmas even though vpw was <BR>specifically against it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is quite typical of the narcissistic personality to be mentally lazy, to take shortcuts. He thinks his potential for greatness is equal to deserving the rewards of greatness. He may be the cheater on exams, or the boss who makes everyone else do the work and then takes credit for it, or the scam artist. Although people may do these things and not be narcissists, the truly personality disordered have a pervasive tendency to be armchair quarterbacks, not doers. <BR><BR>It takes years of effort to play the guitar, so if Wierwille picked one up and didn't get good at it fairly quickly, he was happy to associate with a music ministry and "talk shop" with them, or make them change their lyrics and claim his ministry made them great. Did anyone actually hear him play a guitar? We certainly heard him sing -- he couldn't. <BR><BR>It takes years of dedicated practice to play basketball well, so it was easier for Vic to claim an association with a college and pro team and not actually be on one. (I agree, WW, his "associated with" remark could mean anything, and left wiggle room if someone looked it up. When no one did, his lies grew bolder, like "the inventor of the hook shot.") Perhaps he had enough natural talent to compete in high school, but when it came time to actually work at it, it was easier to just say he did after the fact.<BR><BR>It takes years of patient dedication to become a good pastor. But Vic's tendency to buck authority would not let him wait. HE knew how to run a congregation, how dare they tell the man of God what to do! I am sure he embellished the encounter with the elders, but I can certainly see him thwarting their wishes early on. Heck, if they fired him, he could always go back to Dotsie and lie about what happened, and have her go back to nursing.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Shaz
<span class="ev_code_RED"> All attend and give heed! Sunesis has posted something especially noteworthy!<BR></span><BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sunesis:<BR>Here's a great statement when he was talking about Rinker and how she pushed him:<BR><BR>...but the Bible is the Word of God... in all my years of school-not believing it anyway.<BR><BR><BR>Note: "Not believing it [the Bible] anyway."<BR><BR>I can't believe he let that slip.<BR><BR>I have often thought he was not born again - here he basically admits with all his education,he did not believe the Bible. This is no wonder, many pastors, reverends and people who make a living pastoring their flocks don't either.<BR><BR>VP's concern was his ministry and his people. His "product" was the Word. It paid off handsomely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*blink* *blink*<BR>Holy moley!<BR>How did I miss THIS one?????<BR><BR>Let's check the timeframes here....<BR>vpw grows up neglecting his chores. Harry thinks he's "preaching to the trees" but<BR>never SAW him preaching until over a decade later.<BR>As a child, he saw a preacher, and supposedly said "I want to be like you."<BR><BR>As a teenager, he was a showoff and a bully. He's remembered for tearing up the<BR>neighborhood on a motorcycle, and may or may not have played music and sang.<BR>(He claims he did.) When he was in high school, he told his dad he wanted to study<BR>for the ministry and Harry said "he'd always liked to study."<BR>NOTHING about "I have a deep desire to serve God" or "I want to see others serve<BR>God". Just about study.<BR>vpw himself said that "First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer;<BR>but by my junior year in college, I had my heart set on the ministry."<BR>So, it was a profession, like a doctor or a lawyer, as he saw it.<BR>No deep commitment then. Apparently, no deep commitment SOONER, as Harry either<BR>told the truth or he didn't. Either vpw told his Dad that in high school while he<BR>was thinking of other professions, or he NEVER said that in high school and Harry's<BR>memory added it (possible, but I'm reluctant to START there.)<BR><BR> When he entered the seminary, the neighbors thought he was<BR>morally bankrupt. He learned to compose a sermon and get people involved.<BR><BR><BR>His first church was in Payne, Ohio. His first sermons were there, in 1941.<BR>There he demonstrated an ability to "preach" "good" and "active" and <BR>"get young people interested". There were no inner depths resembling what he <BR>taught later.<BR><BR>In summer of 1942, Rosalind Rinker dogged him "on the Bible being the Word<BR>of God." He's "never heard that in all his years of school-not believing it anyway."<BR><BR>That means that the summer of 1942 was the EARLIEST vpw believed the Bible was<BR>the Word of God.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BR>"She jarred me, at a time when I was searching and discouraged, with the idea again<BR>that the Word of God really WAS the Will of God. It got me started on the right<BR>track." </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>So, his entire time in college studying to be a minister, and the entire FIRST YEAR<BR>of his pastorate, he had not yet STARTED to believe the Bible is the Word of God.<BR>His entire upbringing BEFORE that, he hadn't believed it either.<BR><BR>Rufus Moseley said, of the Spirit, years later,<BR>"I'm full, but I can't give it to you, and I don't know why."<BR>I think we know why, Rufus-vpw wasn't a real Christian at the time, so he could not<BR>manifest the new birth outwards. That's the external evidence of an internal reality<BR>he did not HAVE.<BR><BR>=======<BR>Bra-vo, Sunesis.<BR>Take a bow.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ...but the Bible is the Word of God... in all my years of school-not believing it anyway </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>the admission is:<BR><BR> I never heard that the Bible is the word of GOD<BR><BR>Then he goes on to say "not believing it anyway"<BR><BR>So if he had not believed it "anyway" that means thathe MUST HAVE HEARD IT before that day.<BR><BR>WHen you say "I didn't believe it anyway" what you are saying is, that something you heard previous to the current conversation appeared to be untrue in your estimation.<BR><BR>So what is actuality VPW was saying was <BR><BR>"I had heard the Bible was the WOrd of God but I didn't believe it"<BR><BR>Sounds to me like VP was claiming to be the modern day Saul--He never believed and suddenly GOd spoke directly to him.<BR><BR>THat could explain TWI'sobession with the letters of PAul to the exclusion of Jesus Christ.<BR><BR>VPW wasn't just teaching--in his mind he was the Spiritual equivalent of the Apostle Paul, in fact better--in "piffle" he was constantly pointing out where Paul had erred in his "walk" the implication being that he, VPW, would not have made such mistakes.
I heard that VPW had played guitar though ,personally, I never heard him play. I do recall that his comment about "laying down the guitar " was used a great deal by WOWs and Corps as an example of sacrifice -as if VPW had some preternatural ability for guitar and made the ultimate sacrifice by denying his "immense talent" for music (and basketball) in favor of servitude to God. I later learned that his musical abilites were ,at best, average and , in general, quite mediocre. Of course during the "good ole days" (early to mid 70s) VPW could do no wrong and was openly worshipped as a valid substitute for the "absent christ" though that phrase had yet to come into vogue. However I do recall that Stacey Bowen once said that "you don't have Jesus or Paul but you do have Doctor Wierwille". That comment made me ill though the bulk of the people enthusiastically applauded. How whacked was that ?<BR><BR>Worse I once heard a starstruck WOW say that something to the effect of "Doctor is so right on that he can check out scenes and situations that ,for you and me (the average believer) , would mean that we be out of fellowship. But not for Doctor". Of course later this type of thinking was used by Way leadership to justify their licentious behavior.
Here's what we know, or is blatantly obvious from vpw's own words.<BR><BR>Rosalind Rinker was a decisive woman (she made decisions at an instant and carried<BR>them out), with a forceful personality (all this "pinning" and "backing").<BR>She dismisses meeting with his congregation COMPLETELY,<BR>and focuses all her attention on him.<BR>She says she wants to meet with him.<BR>vpw, speaking about this time, says she <BR>"winds him around her finger" <BR>"pinned him down"<BR>"pinned him down"<BR>"backed him up against the wall" <BR>"night after night, day after day" (not "day after day, night after night").<BR>After everyone else had gone to bed,<BR>they went alone to the pulpit.<BR>There they spoke, and she told him that he was very special<BR>("she told me that God was showing her that He had something very special for me<BR>to do...").<BR>(<span class="ev_code_RED">interlude??</span>) <BR>Before they leave, vpw prays for forgiveness.<BR>========<BR>So, then, <BR>my questions.....<BR><BR>What did Rosalind Rinker HERSELF have in mind here?<BR>Was there an interlude?<BR><BR><BR>And,<BR><BR>my most interesting question of all.....<BR><BR><BR> <span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Did the hunter become the prey? </span> <BR><BR>We know that before this, EARLIER, that he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, <BR>liked attention. <BR>We know that, EARLIER, he viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling.<BR>We know that, EARLIER, he preferred books to manual labour.<BR><BR>We know a woman arrives, <BR>focuses a lot of attention on him,<BR>has a forceful personality,<BR>and says he's special.<BR>They go off in private.<BR><BR>vpw prays for forgiveness.<BR><BR><BR><BR>We know that he was a control freak on his congregation LATER.<BR>(I refuse to believe a congregation with elders will have a man ARRIVE,<BR>immediately terrorize his congregation, and just say "ok" without replacing<BR>this wet-behind-the-ears young pup with less than a year outside of school.<BR>They'd have him replaced within the month. Having his seat VACANT is better<BR>than having a screw-up botching up the job. Let elders rotate duties until even<BR>a lukewarm replacement can be found.)<BR><BR>We know that LATER he engages in some activities with a church secretary.<BR>vpw insists that they never fired him-he quit. <BR><BR>We know that LATER he focuses attention on young, impressionable women,<BR>and sometimes resorts to alcohol to lower their inhibitions,<BR>and sometimes resorts to drug to knock them out.<BR><BR>Was there an incident between EARLIER and LATER that channeled his self-centered,<BR>egotistical behaviour into sexual directions?<BR><BR>=========<BR>BTW,<BR>kudos for Ala for catching that peculiar phrase, <BR>which started my little side-investigation.
My first question on this would be: was there a "real" snowstorm producing an instant whiteout?
As has previously been discussed here, no whiteout was recorded for the area.
Period.
Ok, the next question becomes: was there a vision of this?
Well, that now goes to confirmation based on the second half.
Let's ignore the "if God wants you to tell other people, he'll tell you to tell them"
stuff that got Joseph in trouble with his brothers.
If someone claims to have a vision from God, and this vision does not come to pass,
then they are a false prophet.
This supposed prophecy had several components:
A) God would teach vpw God's Word
B) God would teach vpw God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century
C) vpw would need to teach it to others.
One necessary assumption there is that the phrase
"God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century"
actually had meaning.
In the first century AD, there were no printing presses. What was known was the
spoken Word, a handful of copies of New Testament books here and there,
and the Old Testament/Torah.
So, this entire saying is a neat catchphrase, but conveys a false impression.
If this came from a god, it came from a foolish god. It's a cute concept that is
a convenient FICTION.
In practice, there was no unified vision of things. There was considerable division.
Christians were on the run. They made sure other Christians were not in financial
straits, and spent time together where they could find it, eating together and so on.
Where they found a haven, they stayed and taught. They were hardly an "organized"
bunch, but most especially, they were not CENTRALIZED. If they saw a need in
another city's Christians, someone passed the hat around, and they sent money.
Now, compare that to twi.
Everything centrally organized.
Everything centrally controlled.
Everything STANDARDIZED.
All the money goes ONE WAY>
Permanent locations.
What the top leader says, goes-no questions.
Organized meetings.
Extensive study of Greek, but NO time for charity.
The first century Christian church would never RECOGNIZE twi.
Any resemblance between vpw's work and the first century Christian church is faint at best, and
probably coincidental.
So, that part of this supposed prophecy FAILED- NOTHING resembled the first century Christian church.
Moreover, everything vpw taught was ALREADY being taught at the time he "learned" it.
God could not teach him things that "hadn't been known since" because all of it was KNOWN.
That part of this supposed prophecy FAILED-NONE of it was unknown.
Evidence is pretty clear vpw got EVERYTHING from the books and class of others, not from God.
If there was a vision, it was NOT from the true God who knows better. If it was from another source
(the only remaining option if there WAS a vision), then vpw was an incompetent who couldnt tell
when he got a message from God versus the false god.
vpw then claimed (in the Orange and White Books) that he learned their contents from God and only
God.
The entire claim fails under scrutiny. It's sole purpose was to put forth that himself was some great one.
WW I thought you might like it. There are a zillion gems in there.
Lamsa says some Scriptures were lost and others were destroyed (e.g., burned) or rejected because they were "contrary to the new doctrines and dogmas" adopted at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325.43 He says certain passages were "deliberately forged" and added to the books of the Bible.44
Lamsa also attempts to establish scholarly credentials as a means of gaining acceptance. He claims to have been born about 1892, and to have acquired an A.B. degree equivalent in 1907 and a Ph.D. equivalent in theology in 1908 from Archbishop of Canterbury's College, Turkey.50 He also claims to have graduated from Episcopal Theology Seminary in Virginia51 and to have studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Dropsie College.
Lamsa, however, appears to have exaggerated his academic credentials. First, he claims to have attained a Ph.D. at age 16, only one year after his A.B.52 Second, there are no records of his graduation from a seminary, and his own writings suggest that he was never at any school long enough to attain any valid degree
Lamsa's writing style reflects his exalted view of his own mission and character. He usually writes embellished narratives or discourses, not documenting either blanket assertions or detailed comments. For example, he dismisses his lack of supporting evidence for his theory that the New Testament was originally authored in Aramaic by saying, "What is a fact needs no defense."
vpw MEANT to say that the others were counterfeits.
However, even he knew Rufus Mosley was real and it didn't take with Rufus.
We know it finally worked with Stiles, and Stiles spent HOURS with him,
going over and over and over stuff, THEN walking him thru.
Since others didn't seem to need this (Rufus was SURPRISED it didn't work),
I think the only logical conclusion was that vpw was the spiritual equivalent
of a REMEDIAL STUDENT.
Stiles needed to give him private tutoring because he wasn't able to keep
up with the rest of the class.
BTW,
this marks the THIRD, count 'em, THIRD time
he's said he was going to quit.
Twice in 1942, once in 1951.
I'm still wondering about that myself.
Was he really ready to quit a lot,
or did he just say that?
I suspect he really was ready to quit.
I also remember hearing him teach on what Jesus said about committment,
and "no man, having put his hand to the plow, having turned back,"
is worthy of being a leader.
It was all about POWER and HATE
It took me a long time to figure it out--
Didn't really crystalize until this thread
VPW didn't have the fame and success he felt was his due, and what he felt was his "due" was grossly exagerated in his own mind... ...
Even after TWI was growing and he wes revered as "the teacher" It still wasn''t as much as he felt was his due.
He was constantly name droppping, constantly inflating his own importance ie.-going to one of the inumerable inagural balls in Washington DC became "I was invited to THE inagural ball"
I have never heard much about his parents--or if I did it was so little and so ubiquetous that it didn't register
I think above all VPW was a man who HATED women. He believed that women were a millstone around a man's neck. They were not to be trusted, liars, maniplators, etc. that had to be controlled.
The underlying psychology for these beliefs will never be known but I suspect that his mother was very domineering. [At least that is my attempt at pop psychology for the evening] :blink:
What he did to women was okay because they "deserved" it as punishment for their "sins" . Sins which existed in VPW 's twisted thought processes.
No wonder he surrounded himself with men who thought like him, no wonder domestic abuse and abuse of others was so prevalent in TWI. If you were female you were fair game, and if you were a man who supported and sustained women you were perceived as less of a man for doing so. Couple this with your very salvation being measured by how well you followed "Dr's" words and you had a cocktail tailor made for not only abuse on a grand scale but the perpetuation of same.
I don't think he underestimated them. If you underestimate someone, or a group of someones, they don't really register on your radar --good or bad---
But Women registered on VPW's radar--they registered constantly --and he was constantly trying to pigeon hole them--
hence the name calling, manipulative, liars, hence the feeling they must be controlled--hence the feeling they were inferior to God's plan 'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'
Because he both hated and feared them.
He was constantly afraid they would reveal him, (they are liars) they would undo him (they are manipulators) they would outshine him(they must be controlled)
The one women he does give some credit to he later slams for leaving the "ministry"
So why the credit in the first place???
MY HUNCH is that a lot of people knew about those sessions, a lot of people knew what she taught, a lot of people knew her--there were witnesses--not as easy to claim as his, HER teachings.
But in the end he denigrated her along with the rest of my gender.
No one spends as much time and energy running down a gruop of people , if they are indifferent to them, as VPW did with women
IMO it was HATE
Understanding that my view is tempered by a) my gender and B) my TWI experience
Isn't it a sign of a pathological liar that they can't open their mouth without telling one lie? He was telling a story, told the truth, but it was only the truth, so he HAD to throw a lie in there somewhere. :)
"We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses. Also Luke 11:11, where it talks about fathers giving gifts to their children: If a child asked for bread, would the earthly father give him a stone? He just went over and over those things, used those verses in Luke hundreds of times to get that fear out of me. He just drove it home to me-God wouldn't give a lousy gift. We worked till 3pm. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn't know the language. It was like a burning light. It just cooked me on the inside. Such a flood came out. For the next half hour, Stiles had me speak and stop, just start and stop. Then he left. But I went on all night-speaking in tongues, praying in my understanding, reading from the Word. I was up all night, higher than a kite, I never ate. I couldn't sleep. I was so thrilled, so overjoyed and burning. And that has been the greatest night of my life.
Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet."
================
Skipping the last sentence-which was gratuituous-we have an interesting event.
I have no difficulty believing this was EXACTLY what happened.
vpw had demonstrated a "remedial" level of spiritual facility,
so Stiles takes him from the very basics thru speaking in tongues.
Stiles then makes sure the job is a thorough one, and that vpw is able
to proceed without him.
vpw is delighted and excited.
So many Christians have felt on top of the world at that time.
In fact,
knowing how special and significant this is to Christians,
it's obvious in hindsight why he tied so special an experience to his ORGANIZATION.
This way, he was able to get people to connect the two events, and get them
beholden to him.
"Well, it was because of this class that I spoke in tongues,
so without it I never would have spoken in tongues,
because God is that small.
Therefore, I owe the organization stuff and can come with excuses
to turn a blind eye whenever they do wrong."
Yup, I quite agree WW. Except that I don't think God so small. But if in subscribing to 'if not for this minitry' places God in a box, then I guess that I have done thought God so small. It's just that now I think God so very much bigger.
But in the subscription of 'if not for this ministry' thingy... If it weren't for the ministry, none of us would be here at GSCafe. And I mean that in the goodest of ways.
Maureen. I never spoke in tongues before twi. After piffle I did. I still do speak in tongues. I never received the burning, the overjoyed stay up all night excitement like VPW. I do turn it on and off like a light. I even sing in tongues when I don't know the words to the song. It doesn't sound like any language that I've ever heard. Perhaps it's tongues of angels rather than men, perhaps it's jibberish cuz it don't do anyone no good but me. Could I have ever been taught to speak in tongues elsewhere, hmmm, probably.
All this makes me wonder why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles.
Well,
that was my point.
YOU think God is so very much bigger, NOW.
So do I.
Not only were many, many, MANY people convinced otherwise back when,
now, after all vpw's crimes (or at least many of them)
have been exposed,
some people STILL make that kind of vapid claim.
Frankly, it's the ridiculous presence of that kind of claim NOW that made me notice the connection.
I still say vpw's big skill was in MARKETING.
He relabelled a Christian experience and made it out
to be a twi experience,
AND charged money for it.
As to why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles,
that's an easy one.
Neither Stiles nor Leonard ever required allegiance to themselves or any organization.
They were interested in blessing the greatest # of Christians possible in the time available.
The "class allegiance" thing was something vpw insistituted to guarantee himself
'repeat customers'-selling them materials and classes, and later, giving 10% of their income.
'A la prochaine' date='Oct 7 2005, 02:48 AM'
"I'm BACK..... :P
"The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for."
There's something ABSOLUTELY fishy about this statement. It's too packaged or something...can't quite put my finger on it? OH RIGHT!!!! The smart-A$$, motor-cycle maniac...was being raised for the Holy Spirit field? How could God limit himself like this???
And to claim such a thing? WOWZA...he surely had NARCISSISTIC balls.
Wonky :blink:"
========================
The part that still leaves me in amazement is that some people read that statement of
his NOW, knowing what we NOW know, and say
"Yes, that's correct."
===================
"The summer of 1953, our whole ministry went up-Dotsie and Donnie and some of the others from Van Wert. We took his whole trip- really learned a lot about the other manifestations of the holy spirit. But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures. When I came home, I made up my mind that I was going to tie the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation. So I did, and in October, I had the very first 'Power for Abundant Living' Class. At that time, the Foundational Class and the Advanced Class were together-then whole thing in two weeks. But the syllabus today is basically the same. The basic principles from the Word are the same. The class has filled out. But I knew the greatness of our age-the age of holy spirit and that every truth must fit in the framework of the manifestations. I just had to teach it to somebody."
"I taught without a syllabus, but the class was the same. You could throw the syllabus away now and I could still teach it. It's a burning reality in my soul."
============
Ok, here's the timetable.
vpw takes Leonard's entire class (not an interrupted one) in the summer of 1953.
Let's say it was the beginning of summer to allow for maximum time.
6/21 is the FIRST day of summer.
So, figure he takes Leonard's "whole trip"-
at least 2 weeks of concentrated material.
Let's say three weeks and say he took EVERYTHING.
That takes him thru the end of May and into the middle of June.
vpw claims he then took Leonard's classes and "tied the whole thing together from Genesis to
Revelation", and added Scripture to Leonard's class.
If vpw is being truthful, that means he would need to completely deconstruct Leonard's class,
then completely rebuild it. He'd need to find the Scriptures to match EVERYTHING Leonard
taught.
Do you know how LONG that would take?
When CG attempted to take the Advanced class (1/3 the material) and improve on it,
he worked on it sporadically over YEARS. It would have been at least 6 months of concentrated work-
and that was TWEAKING and IMPROVING-not completely taking it apart and building a NEW CLASS.
That would have taken one person over a year if working completely alone.
So vpw takes Leonard's class, and a few months later, runs his first PFAL class.
He has NOT had enough time to build an entirely new class.
He had time to make a few cosmetic changes.
He had time to memorize blocks of Leonard's class.
So, realistically, this could NOT be that different a class.
Further,
if he rebuilt it, he would have a definite outline for doing so, between DEconstruction and REconstruction.
It should have been relatively simple to take the most basic outline, add a paragraph on each
session's contents, then hand it off to a secretary for typing and photocopying.
That would have been a rough syllabus.
Ok,
so either vpw told the truth or he did not.
He did not have sufficient TIME to have done this in the manner he stated.
Further,
the 1.0 version of anything is rather different, say, than the 4.5 version.
That's because there's years of refinement and improvements over years,
and the makers find better ways of doing things.
vpw claims the 1.0 version of pfal is largely the same as the FINAL result.
Something like saying that decades more work didn't advance it past a 1.9 version.
The only reason that would be, is if the INITIAL DRAFT was a FINAL VERSION.
Supposedly, he made this in a few months of complete reconstruction.
This is impossible.
If he was just copying a final version from LEONARD, however,
it's possible it was ALREADY nearly as good as it COULD get, thus not
requiring major overhauls to improve it.
So, on paper,
it makes sense that vpw lied and just copied over Leonard's completed
class as his own "completed class".
That still leaves reality.
Those people who have taken both Leonard's class and vpw's class
have said that Leonard's class DOES have all the Bible in it,
and all of the supposed "original" material of pfal was straight out
of Leonard's class. The most ridiculous example of this is that the
imaginary examples-Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup and Henry
Belocco were ALL from Leonard and just transliterated over.
(Snowball Pete may not have been mentioned. However, he
only appears once in 12 episodes of pfal, so that's not significant.)
In short,
there is no reason to believe vpw is telling anything resembling the truth
here.
He took Leonard's class.
He claimed to make improvements on it, then a few months later
(too soon to overhaul it), he taught Leonard's class with a new name.
There was no syllabus or textbook initially.
Over time-and time spent with books on the Holy Spirit field-
textbooks "were written" that were Bullinger and Stiles' books
with a new name and cover.
According to some people,
God wanted him to teach "his" class.
However, "his" class was LEONARD's class.
The only difference for several years was the name of the class and the name of its
"originator."
It would have been easier to make arrangements to arrange for LEONARD's
class than to spend months slapping his name on a transliteration.
The only gain for that time was vpw's name added to it.
So, then, that would mean God wanted Leonard's class to be taught,
but vpw's name attached to it and Leonard's name removed.
If you want to believe that makes sense, go ahead.
Ok, let's translate this into plain truthful English...
==========
pg-209, vpw on the genesis of the White Book.
"'Somewhere in there I wrote the first holy spirit book. I can't remember exactly what year.'"
[...by cutting-and-pasting Stiles' book and Bullinger's book on the subject.]
"'I'd been working those 385 scriptures and they began to all fall into place.'"
[ I 'worked' them as they appeared in Stiles' and Bullinger's books, and they were
already 'in place' as a result. But that didn't stop me from adding my name to their work.]
"'We're having the sixth edition printed now of that book: Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. It's a great piece of research."
[ It's a pretty good combination of the contents of 2 other books,
neither of which are ever mentioned IN that book.]
"Lots of the stuff I teach is not original."
[ 99% of the stuff I teach is not original-but taken ENTIRELY from other people's books and
classes, teaching style and method of speech.]
"Putting it all together so that it fit-that was the original work."
[ Well, it all "fit" since it was of God, but reassembling their books into my book, and adding
Bullinger and Stiles into Leonard to make the Foundational class, I consider that "original"
since no one ever put them alongside each other. Of course, I'll never mention their names
because I don't want to have my paper-trail followed.]
"I learned wherever I could,"
[ No arguments there.]
"and then I worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn't, I dropped."
[When Christians said something I thought was correct, I copied over their work.
When non-Christians said something I thought was correct, I copied over
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penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
WordWolf
pg-235.
"If someone comes into the ministry, we don't drop them, we stick with them.
We never kick anyone out. They kick themselves out, if they want to go. But they're
always welcome back."
Those of you PERSONALLY kicked out by vpw himself, this is a perfect time to remind us.....
Ooo, pot, meet kettle....
"Sometimes people leave. And you wonder why you ever teach
anybody-people you've poured your whole soul into." "
[ It's not supposed to be about you and what you wonder.
You just TEACH.
But to answer the question,
it's about the people you teach, period. Some stay, and some leave.
Either way, what is of God stays with them. ]
"They hear
something, then they want to go it alone."
[ Yeah, the Evangelical and Reformed Church, I hear that sometimes their
ministers do that, too. ]
"It's still just mainly an ego trip for them because it's how they
look to other men that counts to them. They are not standing
back in utter amazement of God's Word come hell or high water."
[ See my last point.]
"When that happens it just tears my heart out.
But I have that Word so deep in my soul that if nobody else
believes it, I would still stand."
[ It is not about you. ]
Regular Mother Teresa of Calcutta he was.
Except, you know, for the "helping people" part.
Then he decided to set up a leadership program.
"We started the first Way Corps then, the fall of 1969,
especially for that purpose, to prepare leaders. There were
nine of them-some married, some single, younger and older.
They stayed until the spring, and then
I gave them the privilege of leaving.
You see, they never got it together among themselves. They
didn't have that commitment, that discipline."
pg-236.
"They just kept fighting among themselves. But
you know what? They're all standing today, all but one, and
she'll be back. She'll get tired of messing around after a
while. And she'll be back because
there's nowhere else to go
after you have seen the greatness of the Word."
He also says the new improved program is a 2-year program.
=====
Ok, so he wants to set up a leadership training program.
Please note that, until now, we've neither seen any experience
WITH a leadership training program nor facility with training
of any kind. So vpw doesn't know how to set up a
leadership training program, how to set realistic goals for
the program and for the participants, and so on.
How much of a difference does it make?
When I was still in college,
I had such experience, and could have written up a
program that HAD realistic expectations and goals,
and would have had a higher success rate.
What difference DID it make?
According to vpw,
perhaps 6 months into the first program,
EVERYBODY had a problem.
That means the problem is with THE PROGRAM.
You take it apart, examine it, retool it,
and carefully try it in a redesicned form.
Not vpw, though. He took the SAME program
and ran MORE people thru it.
The one thing he's still good at is pumping air
into himself. He's repeated that
"only ministry with the truth" thing again.
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templelady
And with VPW it was
how he looked to Leonard
How he looked to Fugit
How he looked to MArtindale
how he looked to Geer
HOw he looked to us
How he looked to the BOT
ETC, ETC, ETC
And IF, perish the thought , someone noticed that the emperor had no clothes, it was off with their heads
Because it was not how he actually looked--- he was ready, willing and able to tell everyone exactly HOW he looked ---and Heaven help the dissenter who lacked the same vision
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WordWolf
If I were to go out on a limb, here...
I'd say his fixation with pumping up his own image
and making himself look like he never misses,
is tied into the same reasons the program was
not redesigned and retooled after having
been unsufficiently prepared,
and simply rerun as if it hadn't failed during
its trial run.
vpw refused to accept that setting up such a
program required skills he didn't have.
vpw refused to accept that a failure of a
program meant a problem with the program.
vpw refused to look at the structure and
say "there have to be better ways to do this."
All of that was because vpw was supposedly an
expert on everything,
and refused to admit his gaping deficiencies
in setting up and running such a program.
So he blamed the people he "set up".
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WordWolf
Amazing what vpw "allows" to happen.
pg-237, we hear
"The Ambassadors is a similar program to develop leaders,
faithful men, people with committment right out on the field.
It's like Jesus said, 'The harvest truly is plenteous, but the
labourers are few.' Well, we're allowing real labourers to develop. It's beautiful."
Now comes the AD portion of tonight's show.
"God said He'd teach me His Word like it hadn't been known
since the first century if I would teach it to others. And that's
how I think: How can we teach it to others, make it live?"
Doctor shakes his head, his face cast in seriousness.
"Yes, the day God made me this promise was the greatest day in my
life, that day and the day I received the holy spirit because
they were both centers of reference for my learning truth and
error. You have to have a center of reference outside of yourself
to learn. And no matter who you talk to, you always learn.
Those two encounters with Him are as real to me today as my
talking with you right now."
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WordWolf
==================
Amazing what vpw "allows" to happen.
pg-237, we hear
"The Ambassadors is a similar program to develop leaders,
faithful men, people with committment right out on the field."
[Again, a man with no background or training in 'leadership programs'
runs another program. However, this time, he hits upon the key that
makes this work in spite of his inadequacies...]
"It's like Jesus said, 'The harvest truly is plenteous, but the
labourers are few.' Well, we're allowing real labourers to develop. It's beautiful."
[ Bingo.
That was the key.
vpw was not qualified to do ANYTHING to develop leaders.
So, how does this succeed?
He does NOTHING.
People volunteer to serve God for one year, and pay VPW for the privilege.
vpw then tells them,
"ok, the 4 of you go here for a year",
and then does NOTHING, and they either SINK or SWIM
based on their own determination, prayer, and the situations.
Those that grew, grew.
Those that didn't, did not blame the "program" that didn't actually TEACH anything.
It was quite a financial windfall, too.
Like he charged the corps and used them as manual labour and free groundskeeping,
the wows were charged to be wows, which meant a onetime bonus for twi.
Then they were "relocated"-no, they were told where to go, and they were told
to find a way to get there. That's why wows were organized around which ones
had CARS. Cost to the ministry: $0.
They then had to work fulltime and support themselves on the field for the year.
Cost to the ministry: $0.
THEN they ran twigs and pfal classes.
The twigs were expected to have members tithe 10% of their income.
Cost to the ministry: $0.
Benefit? 10%.
The pfal classes were run, adding members and adding grads.
Cost to the ministry?
Loaning the class materials-film, whatever.
Benefit to the ministry?
The price for each student,
plus buying replacement books from time to time....
All for doing NOTHING and "allowing" them to develop.
Heartless, without conscience-but profitable.]
Now comes the AD portion of tonight's show.
"God said He'd teach me His Word like it hadn't been known
since the first century if I would teach it to others. And that's
how I think: How can we teach it to others, make it live?"
Doctor shakes his head, his face cast in seriousness.
"Yes, the day God made me this promise was the greatest day in my
life, that day and the day I received the holy spirit because
they were both centers of reference for my learning truth and
error. You have to have a center of reference outside of yourself
to learn. And no matter who you talk to, you always learn.
Those two encounters with Him are as real to me today as my
talking with you right now."
========
I honestly believe vpw had talked himself into believing his story
by this time-that, in telling it to so many people, he bought into
his own lie.
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WordWolf
pg-237.
==========
"But you get tired. The other night I was so tired
I couldn't even find the books of the Bible. When you work so
hard, everyone loves you; but when you get right down to it, it's
you and God to handle that Word, and you have to make it live
with the renewed mind. That's what's really important. And other
of life's tinsel just doesn't count against the greatness of the
Word of God.
This is the greatest loving ministry in the world-and the most
lonesome walk. I suppose it's like being an athlete. In football,
there are eleven, in basketball, five; but when you teach, it's
just you and Daddy.
Lots of people love you for the Word you teach, but when it comes
right down to it, it's just you. You stand and you walk. You
teach what they can take. And sometimes you know a whole lot more.
Things you could open your heart on, you never do, to those depths
of perception. You go so far. You know the abundance available and
the Father says, 'That's all folks! End of show.' And it's
something you cannot describe to people. Just you and Father know."
====
Man, I can't hear the sounds of the violin music over the earth
shaking there...
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WordWolf
===============
===============
pg-237.
==========
"But you get tired. The other night I was so tired
I couldn't even find the books of the Bible. When you work so
hard, everyone loves you;"
[ What was he working so hard at when reading the Bible?
According to what he was JUST saying, he was implying the
youngsters were lazy when they wanted to study the Bible
rather than do manual labour. (And wasn't the Bible-studying
why they were there?)
So, when a youngster does it, it's laziness.
When vpw does it, it is hard work that makes you tired.
Nice double-standard.]
" but when you get right down to it, it's
you and God to handle that Word, and you have to make it live
with the renewed mind. That's what's really important. And other
of life's tinsel just doesn't count against the greatness of the
Word of God."
"This is the greatest loving ministry in the world-and the most
lonesome walk. I suppose it's like being an athlete. In football,
there are eleven, in basketball, five; but when you teach, it's
just you and Daddy."
["This is the greatest loving ministry in the world".
Here's ANOTHER one of the "best in the world" claims vpw
made a LOT.
Further, this ministry relied on rules over "loving", even then.
"House of Acts" was a loving ministry.
Also, if any ministry is a "lonesome walk", then the people
in charge are failing to run it correctly. It's supposed to be
a FAMILY thing, that means it's groups, not a "lonesome walk".
A "lonesome walk" is a cowboy or other "tough guy"
who wants to show how tough he is.
It's a uniquely American form of error.
Europeans like the Vikings had sayings like
"bare is the back that has no brother",
and they were considered pretty tough.
So, vpw is exhausted from reading his Bible,
and he's some sort of maverick.
At least, that's what he wants us to believe.
Didn't hw JUST finish complaining about ego
and appearances?]
"Lots of people love you for the Word you teach, but when it comes
right down to it, it's just you. You stand and you walk. You
teach what they can take. And sometimes you know a whole lot more.
Things you could open your heart on, you never do, to those depths
of perception. You go so far. You know the abundance available and
the Father says, 'That's all folks! End of show.' nd it's
something you cannot describe to people. Just you and Father know."
====
Man, I can't hear the sounds of the violin music over the earth
shaking there...
==========
==========
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WordWolf
pg-240.
========
"Along the slender black-top road and across the bridge in the
distance, a dozen figures clothed in navy sweatsuits are running towards us.
Doctor slows the car down, laughing and smiling. "That's my Corps," he says
affectionately. "They're my kids."
=====
pg-251, Dr Spencer from West Virginia is speaking.
"...We learned in medical school that a fear of death is a symptom of cardiac condition...."
Me, I'd like to know where he went to school, and who taught that.
I know medicine has not so completely advanced since, say, med school in the
50s or 60s that they taught that fear of death is a symptom of a bad heart.
That belongs more to the "bleed him with leeches" era-or at least the
Freud "everything is scientific" era, in the 19th century.
Fear of death is a symptom of having brushed death-either thru personal
experience or thru the death or near-death of a loved one. I don't even have
to go to medical school to learn that. (I'll just stick with my Doctorate
of Theology, thankyouverymuch.
Now, this educated MD talks about witnessing, and he talks about how he used to
be a "hunter" of men-describing how people ambush a deer with both barrels
from a concealed position (which would make him a SNIPER of men, but I digress.)
He then says
"But I've been seeing more and more what the Word says:
You've got to be a fisher of men, like Peter. Every fish is different. You put
out the bait, and it's different for different fish. You put it out, and our
bait is the best. You dangle it here, tease it a little, get the hunger up.
Then when you get a fish on the line, you pull it in. Some you play with.
Some get away from you, but they keep coming back, and you just gotta keep the
bait there all the time."
Interesting analogy.
AND COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Peter was not a hook-and-line fisherman, Peter was a NET fisherman.
"I will let down the net."
The analogy is completely different. A net fisherman casts the net out broadly
over the area, then he draws the net out of the water, and whatever is in the net
is in the net. Jesus wanted THAT kind of guy, not a line fisherman,
AND NOT A HUNTER OR SNIPER.
When the sower went forth to sow, he sowed everywhere, and some grew and
flourished. He did not study out the area, and bury one seed HERE and one seed
THERE. Dr S completely misunderstood Peter's job AND the lesson it teaches us.
Then again, even that early, twi was beginning to practice early hints of elitism.....
Now then,
in the middle of the book is a set of pictures. Most are pretty typical.
There's a shot of the traditional birthday dunk-in-the-river
"God's blessings on you-SPLASH!", and there's a photo of vpw on the film set
of pfal. You can recognize the set, you can recognize the suit, there's the
sign saying "power for abundant living" on the desk. vpw's not actively
filming in this shot. There's a person in the foreground getting ready to cue
the cameraman to begin his countdown-you can see him ready to start the count.
vpw is holding up a Bible and looking forward. I don't remember him holding up
a Bible at the start of any segment. Plus, he's holding it a little close to
comfortably read from. It looks like he's holding it up for the photo snapshot.
I also note the light levels. Despite the stage lights, he knows someone is
getting ready so snap a picture, and they're standing next to the cameraman.
He can see the cue-guy. So, he's looking towards lights that aren't blinding.
STAGE lighting blinds you to anything in its direction. If he was using the
lighting at STAGE level-which is not as bright as he claimed the lights were
during filming-then the entire crew could have slipped away with the camera,
and, if they were silent, he'd be waiting for the signal to begin. You can see
NOTHING at that light level. (Yes, I've been on stage, and seen the audience
vanish as I stepped into the light.)
Furthermore, the man giving the cue, and the cameraman, can be seen in
silhouette, since they're seen blocking the light to the "studio".
If the light really WAS at blinding level, we'd be able to see the pattern of the
guys' shirts, and their facial features.
The next shot, in fact, shows how tight the formation was.....
it shows the side with the cameraman.....but there's no bank of BLINDING LIGHTS
lined up in a row like STAGE LIGHTS. Are they all stacked up in the one
non-visible corner, out of sight? If so, that's a STUPID place to put ALL the
lights. You'd put them CENTRAL in some way. So, unless someone's wheeling in
a foldaway LIGHTHOUSE BEACON, the lights were NOT nearly as bright as he claimed.
I'm also curious just how lousy this film material supposedly was. The old, old
black-and-white turn-of-the century films filmed outdoors to use sunlight.
According to vpw, the stage had lights far in excess of that.
Car headlights are 18,000 candlepower. They are bright enough to make that
studio REALLY bright-brighter than in the photo. Yet, they are not PAINFUL to
have shined at you. Am I the only one skeptical of this story?
Perhaps he got sore eyes from the filming. I could buy that. But "lose my sight"
bright? And he was STUPID ENOUGH to film 2-3 more days when Day One swelled his
eyes SHUT and the Dr said he'd be blinded for LIFE?
Was he that stupid, or does he think WE are?
(No, that was not a rhetorical question.)
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WordWolf
pg-240.
========
"Along the slender black-top road and across the bridge in the
distance, a dozen figures clothed in navy sweatsuits are running towards us.
Doctor slows the car down, laughing and smiling. "That's my Corps," he says
affectionately. "They're my kids."
[You have ownership papers for those students?
Don't answer that-maybe you DO.]
=====
pg-251, Dr Spencer from West Virginia is speaking.
"...We learned in medical school that a fear of death is a symptom of cardiac condition...."
Me, I'd like to know where he went to school, and who taught that.
I know medicine has not so completely advanced since, say, med school in the
50s or 60s that they taught that fear of death is a symptom of a bad heart.
That belongs more to the "bleed him with leeches" era-or at least the
Freud "everything is scientific" era, in the 19th century.
Fear of death is a symptom of having brushed death-either thru personal
experience or thru the death or near-death of a loved one. I don't even have
to go to medical school to learn that. (I'll just stick with my "Doctorate
of Theology", thankyouverymuch. ;)
Now, this educated MD talks about witnessing, and he talks about how he used to
be a "hunter" of men-describing how people ambush a deer with both barrels
from a concealed position (which would make him a SNIPER of men, but I digress.)
He then says
"But I've been seeing more and more what the Word says:
You've got to be a fisher of men, like Peter. Every fish is different. You put
out the bait, and it's different for different fish. You put it out, and our
bait is the best. You dangle it here, tease it a little, get the hunger up.
Then when you get a fish on the line, you pull it in. Some you play with.
Some get away from you, but they keep coming back, and you just gotta keep the
bait there all the time."
Interesting analogy.
AND COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Peter was not a hook-and-line fisherman, Peter was a NET fisherman.
"I will let down the net."
The analogy is completely different. A net fisherman casts the net out broadly
over the area, then he draws the net out of the water, and whatever is in the net
is in the net. Jesus wanted THAT kind of guy, not a line fisherman,
AND NOT A HUNTER OR SNIPER.
When the sower went forth to sow, he sowed everywhere, and some grew and
flourished. He did not study out the area, and bury one seed HERE and one seed
THERE. Dr S completely misunderstood Peter's job AND the lesson it teaches us.
Then again, even that early, twi was beginning to practice early hints of elitism.....
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templelady
Really??? I always figured the gospel was the same for everyone--OOPS silly Me
OUR BAIT --Not the Word of God.Dangling??? Teasing?? Cause people to hunger??? Christ would be appalled
.Christ never trapped anyone--He preached freely and those who would follow did--no barbed hooks and lines dragging them into his followers
.Yup-real godliness in that
Lucky themOnce having escaped the Clutches of TWI not many of us have ever come back. Ditto fish--once they feel the hook they look elsewhere for a meal unless they are very young and very dumb--But say that is what VPW preyed on isn't it??
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WordWolf
Ok, it seems we've reached the end of the quotes for this book.
Having read thru all this, and having discussed it,
I'd like some general thoughts, possibly from those who haven't been
posting every day (for variety).
Do any old-timers from the 70s have any general conclusions on this
subject-the book or its contents?
What do the exits from the 90s and 00s have to say about all this?
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jkboehme
This has been a very insightful analysis by WW of TWI's early 70's marketing tool, Whitesides' TWLIL.All that follows is my personal opinions on these matters.The foregoing analysis of Whitesides' TWLIL, demonstrates the numerous deceptive inconsistencies, haughty exaggerations, slimy half-truths, wanton plagarism, & blatant lies of narcissistic megalomaniacal sociopathic VP Wierwille. In a rare instance of internal consistency, TWI now continues in their time-honored covert strategy of exploitative manipulations of its rank and file members.VPW & LCM would say that Way Corps leadership in top positions are men & women of a ‘ special mould.’ TWI everywhere sets out to ‘produce’ [indoctrinate] men & women of this so-called special mould. To a large degree, an observer of the TWI cultic scene can see that TWI frequently succeeds in this covert, exploitative endeavor to the detriment of many rank & file adherents. The man or woman [‘Waybot’] molded by TWI, the new 'leader,' is a formidable man indeed. He is cast in the opposite mould to the traditional 'New Man in Christ,' because TWI’s ‘christ’ is a recycled hybridized pagan god, with characteristics of Osirus, Dionysis, Mithra, Adonis, Pan, Hermes, & other demigods. Even though a person’s original motivation, upon being deceived into joining TWI, may have been altruistic, even though this person retains much of his or her initial youthful idealism and sense of oneness with suffering humanity in the valley of human need, still, because that person has been indoctrinated to adhere to TWI’s contaminated pseudo-spiritual deeds. that person’s life tends to become contaminated with TWI's oppresive mindset. Therefore the mould into which the TWI leader is pressed is one that ultimately debases him or her as a person.Part of the tragedy of TWI is that it takes good men & women, with good intentions, and exploitatively uses & abuses them for the corrupt cause of fallacious pseudo-spiritual practices. The tragic consequence of these TWI enforced practices is that the idealistic leaders, who join or adhere to TWI, set out to be the saviours of humanity and become instead men’s jailers. TWI stands condemned, not only for the problems it has caused the societies of the USA and other nations around the world, but also for the phenomenal psychological damages it has caused in the non-consenting, individual TWI adherents themselves. The WAY “MINISTRY” in actuality is nothing more than a cultic, multi-level marketing- racketeering scam at best with a thin veneer of Hermitically oriented, ‘ white-washed’ & ‘ redefined’ biblical terms. NO genuine, lasting virtue has come about due to the existence of TWI. It did in fact between ~1967 to ~1972 attract some people who had a desire to serve God, but a critical mass of these people had been witnessed to by non-TWI people such as Jimmy Doop, Steve Heefner, & Ted Wise. These movements were later invaded by avaricious power-hungry Wierwille. Wierwille-TWI essentially stole these people from those simple, grassroots ministries. In significant part due to the presence of Doop, Heefner, Wise & their followers, as well as the exuberance of their unmistakable presence, many of the PFAL classes of this time period generated a great excitement, more so in spite of Wierwille than due to him & to his supposed original “research” (but in actuality it was almost entirely plagiarized). Certain honest individuals, comprised of the Doop/Heefner/Wise derivatives, as well as many who became involved directly by Wierwille’s PFAL series, were the pure-hearted people in our local areas that created the positive environment that appealed to the transient vulnerabilities of so many of us. Then TWI, primarily via Wierwille & later Martindale, those despicable wolves in sheep’s clothing, surreptitiously ‘ taught & trained’ us by way of various exploitative programs {via VPW's PFAL series, the WOW program, the Fellowlaborers’ program, the Way Corps & College Division programs, LCM's WAP series, TWI-II, & many other scenarios} which were ALL disguised TWI indoctrination. The proceeds & benefits of these clandestine programs & MLM operations went not to the TWI-claimed beneficiaries, the rank-and-file affiliates of TWI, but rather went to the TWI Board of Trustees & other high level TWI leadership for their own selfish interests. TWI ‘redefined’ & hence contaminated the supposed 'grace of God' as a hook of vulnerability on the front side, only to later bait & switch it to oppressive hyper-legalism replete with TWI-exit phobia on the far side of this despicable victimization. This oppressive legalism (the supposed ‘teeth’ Wierwille began speaking of around 1967 to 1972) was originally most visible in the Way Corps in the 1970’s, but after the 1989 LCM loyalty demand, & in/after the Fall of 1995, when LCM began his ‘mark & avoid’- enforced extreme obedience demands (among many other abusive & harmful practices), the end result for those of us who in good faith held out to the bitter end, is that we have essentially nothing to show for our TWI servitude except for the psychological & emotional wounds (damages) with which TWI has so disgracefully left us. This does not even begin to account for all of our good-faith financial contributions (tithing & abundant sharing) & our irreversibly lost time (both economic & emotional equivalents implied) stolen from us during our affiliation with The Way International, Inc.One can now easily determine this cult’s supposed “spiritual” benevolence is not altruistic at all, but is rather strategically rigged cons and scams to make a financial profit off of an unaware one, without one’s informed consent. Further, if JUSTICE is to be done, exploitation attempts by TWI should be, and must be met with equilibrating RECIPROCAL CONFRONTATION & REPROOF, preferably of the legal remedy variety. One could perceive that it was her or his delightful duty to society to pounce on these cultic degenerate scum with the vengeance of an aggressive legal counterattack.
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Sunesis
jkboehme - whoa - excellent analysis. Far more articulate than I could put into words.
From my own "researching" of the "Jesus Movement" I learned the main people who started it in California truly did have a "call" from God. You had Chuck Smith, Lonnie Frisbee, Ted Wise, Doop and Heefner - they were the stalwarts - the men called and the men who God choose to reach a generation.
I find it interesting that VP went to California with the express purpose of contacting these men and playing PFAL for them. Smith, Frisbee and Wise had doctrinal differences after a few sessions and left. These men's churches are still thriving and going strong today - the Vineyard, and I forget the name of the other one. I too feel that VP, as a wolf, came in and through charm, personality, false spiritual "heaviness" was able to lure two of the other men to come after him and used them for his gain and to grow TWI. Both of them wised up early on though. But as one who was born again under Heefner's ministry, for him I will always be thankful - what an incredible man he and his wife Sandy were.
I too have found this analysis fascinating. Now that I am older and wiser, it is so easy to see through the BS in the book. It was purposefully written to attract us. I also wonder, how someone like EW, the author, who wrote for prestigious pulblications like the NY Times and others, as a professional journalist, could write such a fluffy PR book. She was not a youngster like we are. Maybe she was paid - who knows.
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Brother Speed
umm, twi is bad, m-kay?
twi is the umm, the way international, m-kay?
twi is a cult, m-kay?
cults are bad, m-kay?
so just so we're on the same page uhh, umm, twi is a bad cult, m-kay?
ok, so I watch South Park, sue me.
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Belle
JKBoehme,
Excellent post! I hope you don't mind, but I broke it out into paragraphs so that more people will read it (some of us are pretty particular about things being easy to read :) )
I also bolded some of your points that I'd like to comment on later:
So, how do you really feel? :ph34r: It's also all too true that TWI does continue to exploit, manipulate and abuse the rank and file. What's sad is that so many have been in for so long that one would hope they would eventually recognize it, but they are most likely so beat down that they can't see their way out or recognize what "normal" is anymore.
That is THE BEST description of TWI's "christ" that I think I've ever seen!
Many leaders also become so accustomed to their god-like status and easy money that they quickly forget about their original motivations. They begin to focus on what they have to do to keep the lifestyle they've grown to expect.
True. There are young people today I know who have gone through the WC program with dreams of redirecting the ship. They are already so oppressed and debased that it's only a matter of time until they sink into the depths of the current pathetic leadership or jump ship because of the futility of their goals. This is the organization that vee pee built, created and promoted. It's operating exactly the same way he intended.
He certainly recognized the qualities he didn't have, but the qualities that were attracting people. He took advantage of the honest and true to exploit them and to expand his base of people to exploit. The quotes here prove that.
And who started that? Where did they learn this selfishness? VPW with all his laziness and greed. Evil communications definitely corrupt good morals and those who couldn't be corrupted wisely left because they recognized the futility of trying to fight it.
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WordWolf
Nuts.
Belle beat me to it.
Deleting my requote...
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WordWolf
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Belle
:D :P :D ;)
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templelady
JKBoehme :D
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Catcup
I could not agree with this quote more.
I can think of no greater debasement, than to be used by a paid minister of The Way International to convey threats of death to a Way follower who was not toeing the line.
I think that is probably the lowest spot I hit while still a leader within The Way International, when I actually carried out Mxrk Wxllxce's directives toward a person under my responsibility. I heard what Wxllxce said, I knew deep inside me that what Wxllxce was ordering me to say to this poor man was so absolutely cruel, and everything in me cried out that it was wrong, yet I still carried it out, against my own conscience, in obedience to the minister to whom I was held accountable.
How does a person with a pure heart whose prime motivation is only to help others, get to the point that they carry out policy that is so absolutely detrimental?
You go through The Way Corps. You discipline yourself to what they tell you to do, because you want to be a faithful leader for God, deemed worthy and entrusted to serve his people, to bind up their wounds, to set them free.
Once there, you learn to blindly obey. And you are forced to maim and imprison innocent followers, while your tortured conscience screams and writhes in pain inside your paralyzed mind.
That is contamination, robbing both leader and follower of their humanity, and their dignity.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
To all who have responded to this thread, I suggest reading Karl Kahler/Carl Collyer's The Cult That Snapped
A Journey into The Way International,especially the Chronolgy(pp.i-v); Chapter 2, pp.7-10;Chapter 4, pp.31-
50; Chapter 6, pp.55-76; Chapter 8, pp.93-112; Chapter 10, pp.117-130; and Chapter 13, pp. 167-184.
Titles for above mentioned chapters are A Lot of Stuff Kids ; He did it His Way ; The Hippies Turn on ; The teeth of God's Love ; Rows of Weapons ; and The master Student, plus postscript entitled Millennium on pages 271-274.
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WordWolf
Clicking this up to make it easier to compare the 2 Wonderland threads.
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Belle
OOPS! I separated them. :mellow: sowwy!
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WordWolf
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