For many people TWI was their first and only exposure to so called christian teaching so it would be hard for them to even know what is commonly taught in mainstream churches. OF course TWI taught that mainstream churches were of the devil which is a position that has continued to influence the opinions of people even years after thier departure from TWI.
I had some exposure to some larger denominations prior to my Way days. For me the allure of TWI was its sizeable contingent of people like myself - young, postive, and enthusiastic to make a difference. For this reason I was willing to hang out for a while (several years) to see where it was all going because I was really sure that it must be going somewhere. Some of the teachings appeared to be specialized and attempts to drill down into concepts I had heard about elsewhere.
I mean plenty of mainstream churches discussed at length whether or not the dead are alive or "once saved always saved" or the "gifts of the spirit". TWI made it like no other church even cared about these things and that was a total lie. As we know VPW lifited the larger part of his more significant "Works" so its not as if TWI doctrine can be said to have originated with TWI in the first place. And even in that case I'm not convinced that the works of Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, et al were necessarily right on either. It is interesting to consider their points of view but I don't thing its "god breathed".
VPW presented a melange of the aforementioned works and added in considerable overhead in needless minuatae and detail as if even the smallest deviation from one of his recipes for the abundant life would cause ruin (as in the Law of Believing wherein "negative believing" could result in the death of a child). PErhaps he though by making the teachings so detailed he could keep people on a perpetual leash so we would keep coming back for the answers to questions to which he had no original answers (just answers he stole from others).
So first off I don't think there is such a thing
as "way doctrine". Its merely VPW's arrangement of the works of others. LCM and his followons are just building upon a foundation of deception and lies and we see that their total lack "growth and expansion" reflects that.
Many mainstream churches may indeed have 'discussed ' at length topics like 'are the dead alive now', 'once saved always saved'
'speaking in tongues' etc.. but the point is really..what did they do about it ?
How honest were they to change their thinking ?
Also, people carrying on about VPW plaigarising Bullinger etc.. yet we have things like the Bullinger Companion Bible that contains many of his works for all to see ??!!
Many mainstream churches may indeed have 'discussed ' at length topics like 'are the dead alive now', 'once saved always saved'
'speaking in tongues' etc.. but the point is really..what did they do about it ?
How honest were they to change their thinking ?
Also, people carrying on about VPW plaigarising Bullinger etc.. yet we have things like the Bullinger Companion Bible that contains many of his works for all to see ??!!
First, whose talking about "mainstream" churches?
The topic is about TWI and it's doctrines, or should I say "borrowed doctrines".
But besides the plagerism, many doctrines taught by TWI were just plain erroneous. Here's a few;
"absent Christ", Jesus Christ is not absent, he is the Lord to all Christians and very active in the ministry.
"The law of believing" and "Your fear can cause the death of your child" Beleiving the promises of God can equal receiving them, but believing in your beleiving is a croc! You cannot cause things to happen via your mind, and beleiving takes place in the mind. Your mind cannot cause someone to give you red drapes! Fear is something God gave us for a good reason. Your fear cannot cause your childs death! Both of these doctrines as taught by TWI mostly are nonsense.
"tithing" This was an old testament law for specific groups of people, primarily farmers, but is not for the NT beleiver. Giving is encouraged in the NT but there is nothing about tithing.
"The more abundant life" is not some special gift where we enjoy material abundance on earth. Jesus came to give us eteranl life after getting saved. Abundant means a lot of somthing. The abundant life is a lot of life or eternal life.
"Adultry and fornication" Both biblically very bad sins and something God commands us not do.
"Abortion" As far as I'm concerned, it's murder, but even if you try and back it up as okay based on OT scripture, it's still considered a sin and the OT required retribution if someone caused her to miscarriage.
"Guardian angels" They don't disapear once you get saved which is what VPW taught, many scriptues talk about Angels helping beleivers.
"Higher powers of Rom 13." Is not talking about church leaders.
There are several other erroneous doctrines taught by TWI, these are just a few.
And I'm not going to debate these doctrines on this thread, many of these have been and are being discussed in the doctrinal section.
I once heard Dale Sides, who was a former limb leader/Reverand in TWI and founder of LMCI, an offshoot. talk about spending time with B.G.Leonard and stating the B.G was very upset at how VPW copied his class calling it PFAL.
Dale mentioned that while taking B.G's class he noticed a lot of similarities to PFAL, including the character names, Magee Muggins, Johnny Jump up etc.
Wierwille didn't even have enough imagination to make up his own character names, pathetic!
And speaking of PFAL, here is a link to Raf's fine work on Actual errors of PFAL for those who haven't seen it;
Dale mentioned that while taking B.G's class he noticed a lot of similarities to PFAL, including the character names, Magee Muggins, Johnny Jump up etc.
Just for the sake of the facts, B.G. Leonard didn't make up those charcter names, either. Maggie Muggins, for example, was a character in a popular children's book...I think they made a radio or TV show about it in Canada, which was where B.G. Leonard lived. If you Google her name, you see people seraching for the Maggie Muggins doll.
Dale mentioned that while taking B.G's class he noticed a lot of similarities to PFAL, including the character names, Magee Muggins, Johnny Jump up etc.
Just for the sake of the facts, B.G. Leonard didn't make up those charcter names, either. Maggie Muggins, for example, was a character in a popular children's book...I think they made a radio or TV show about it in Canada, which was where B.G. Leonard lived. If you Google her name, you see people seraching for the Maggie Muggins doll.
There's an old Elmer Fudd cartoon from around 1940, where Elmer plays Miles Standish. Looking through a phone book in the cartoon, one of the names is John E. Jumpup.
Never failed to amaze the wayfers.
I can't think of a thing learned of value, that I haven't learned better somewhere else. Somehow , even the positive practical applications, ( responsibility, hard work,attention to detail for example) got perverted and used to demean, belittle and control.
That's the little good that I remember. Seems once upon a time, I did the attention to detail, think it through, work hard, study, and be positive thing for LOVES sake- not obligation.
Ah, but the feeling of "superiority" it gave- leaven mixed in with it even back then.
I wonder why it never came to my attention the MILLIONS of other people, people that I never met, were doing the same things..
Wide range of beliefs on doctrine here. That's really interesting. What's amazing to me is those who think TWI was mostly right doctrinally. Or maybe just that there's such a high percentage of people who do based on the poll.
When you consider the success of the offshoots, coupled with the effects of the meanness of L. Craigo driving tons of folks out who may very well still be there had there been more love in twi-2, you may come to the conclusion that lots of folks believe that most twi doctrine was correct for a very long time, and probably still do.
I would say that a good portion of what was taught in PFAL was good doctrine(teaching). Jesus came, he died, he rose, God loves us, keys to understanding the bible, etc .... all prety good stuff.
However, the errors were huge and were in areas that caused many to stumble and for all practical purposes invalidated TWI (1 2, and 3) as any kind of legitimate ministry.
I am talking about things like, The Law of Believing, renewed mind, God wants you to have lots of stuff, tithing, obedience to leaders, don't give to the poor, over emphasis on power and manifestations at the expense of charity, redefining "love" to suit their purposes, etc
...
And...The practical errors were even more destructive than the doctrinal ones.
Hey, thanks to the person who posted the Actual Errors stuff. Just a reminder that the list is in no way intended to be an exhaustive list of areas where I feel TWI was wrong: rather, that is a list of things that are indisputably wrong. The key word is indisputably. There's plenty of stuff I disagree with, but did not include on the list (Goey mentioned several).
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Nottawayfer
I didn't vote because I think they had most things right (like any other organization); however, the things they had wrong were extremely WRONG!!
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Outin88!
I'd guestimate that approximately 50% of TWI's doctrine was erroneous, possibly more!
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diazbro
For many people TWI was their first and only exposure to so called christian teaching so it would be hard for them to even know what is commonly taught in mainstream churches. OF course TWI taught that mainstream churches were of the devil which is a position that has continued to influence the opinions of people even years after thier departure from TWI.
I had some exposure to some larger denominations prior to my Way days. For me the allure of TWI was its sizeable contingent of people like myself - young, postive, and enthusiastic to make a difference. For this reason I was willing to hang out for a while (several years) to see where it was all going because I was really sure that it must be going somewhere. Some of the teachings appeared to be specialized and attempts to drill down into concepts I had heard about elsewhere.
I mean plenty of mainstream churches discussed at length whether or not the dead are alive or "once saved always saved" or the "gifts of the spirit". TWI made it like no other church even cared about these things and that was a total lie. As we know VPW lifited the larger part of his more significant "Works" so its not as if TWI doctrine can be said to have originated with TWI in the first place. And even in that case I'm not convinced that the works of Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, et al were necessarily right on either. It is interesting to consider their points of view but I don't thing its "god breathed".
VPW presented a melange of the aforementioned works and added in considerable overhead in needless minuatae and detail as if even the smallest deviation from one of his recipes for the abundant life would cause ruin (as in the Law of Believing wherein "negative believing" could result in the death of a child). PErhaps he though by making the teachings so detailed he could keep people on a perpetual leash so we would keep coming back for the answers to questions to which he had no original answers (just answers he stole from others).
So first off I don't think there is such a thing
as "way doctrine". Its merely VPW's arrangement of the works of others. LCM and his followons are just building upon a foundation of deception and lies and we see that their total lack "growth and expansion" reflects that.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
diazbro what an awesome post
my feelings exactly
but i am not eloquint enough to say it but i sure do agree
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Allan
Many mainstream churches may indeed have 'discussed ' at length topics like 'are the dead alive now', 'once saved always saved'
'speaking in tongues' etc.. but the point is really..what did they do about it ?
How honest were they to change their thinking ?
Also, people carrying on about VPW plaigarising Bullinger etc.. yet we have things like the Bullinger Companion Bible that contains many of his works for all to see ??!!
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WordWolf
If intellectual honesty, moral character, and truth mattered to you,
this would be more than enough of an answer.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm
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Outin88!
Allan said;
First, whose talking about "mainstream" churches?
The topic is about TWI and it's doctrines, or should I say "borrowed doctrines".
But besides the plagerism, many doctrines taught by TWI were just plain erroneous. Here's a few;
"absent Christ", Jesus Christ is not absent, he is the Lord to all Christians and very active in the ministry.
"The law of believing" and "Your fear can cause the death of your child" Beleiving the promises of God can equal receiving them, but believing in your beleiving is a croc! You cannot cause things to happen via your mind, and beleiving takes place in the mind. Your mind cannot cause someone to give you red drapes! Fear is something God gave us for a good reason. Your fear cannot cause your childs death! Both of these doctrines as taught by TWI mostly are nonsense.
"tithing" This was an old testament law for specific groups of people, primarily farmers, but is not for the NT beleiver. Giving is encouraged in the NT but there is nothing about tithing.
"The more abundant life" is not some special gift where we enjoy material abundance on earth. Jesus came to give us eteranl life after getting saved. Abundant means a lot of somthing. The abundant life is a lot of life or eternal life.
"Adultry and fornication" Both biblically very bad sins and something God commands us not do.
"Abortion" As far as I'm concerned, it's murder, but even if you try and back it up as okay based on OT scripture, it's still considered a sin and the OT required retribution if someone caused her to miscarriage.
"Guardian angels" They don't disapear once you get saved which is what VPW taught, many scriptues talk about Angels helping beleivers.
"Higher powers of Rom 13." Is not talking about church leaders.
There are several other erroneous doctrines taught by TWI, these are just a few.
And I'm not going to debate these doctrines on this thread, many of these have been and are being discussed in the doctrinal section.
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Outin88!
I once heard Dale Sides, who was a former limb leader/Reverand in TWI and founder of LMCI, an offshoot. talk about spending time with B.G.Leonard and stating the B.G was very upset at how VPW copied his class calling it PFAL.
Dale mentioned that while taking B.G's class he noticed a lot of similarities to PFAL, including the character names, Magee Muggins, Johnny Jump up etc.
Wierwille didn't even have enough imagination to make up his own character names, pathetic!
And speaking of PFAL, here is a link to Raf's fine work on Actual errors of PFAL for those who haven't seen it;
http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/ActualErrors.pdf
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markomalley
Dear outin88!,
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Linda Z
Just for the sake of the facts, B.G. Leonard didn't make up those charcter names, either. Maggie Muggins, for example, was a character in a popular children's book...I think they made a radio or TV show about it in Canada, which was where B.G. Leonard lived. If you Google her name, you see people seraching for the Maggie Muggins doll.
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LG
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Linda Z
Yes, I do, Long Gone.
The Maggie Muggins thing is a minor point, really. It was just something I was curious about awhile ago so I started Googling.
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LG
I figured you did, Linda. I had the same curiosity a few months ago, and did just what you did.
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mstar1
I voted 'complete distortion', I hesitate to call them a christian organization at all.
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Belle
Good point, Mstar1.
:)-->
Interesting that even the most staunch TWI supporters have either not voted or not chosen "absolutely correct".
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oldiesman
I chose mostly good with a few errors, which is what I have believed for quite a number of years now.
:)-->
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Ham
I chose lotsa bad with a few things right.
Otherwise, I don't think they could have kept so many of us around for as long as they did.
But looking back, I can only count four or five points that made a real, significant difference, at least in a godly, practical manner.
And toward the end, they did not even adhere to those.
The rest was stinking hooey.
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hiway29
There's an old Elmer Fudd cartoon from around 1940, where Elmer plays Miles Standish. Looking through a phone book in the cartoon, one of the names is John E. Jumpup.
Never failed to amaze the wayfers.
I can't think of a thing learned of value, that I haven't learned better somewhere else. Somehow , even the positive practical applications, ( responsibility, hard work,attention to detail for example) got perverted and used to demean, belittle and control.
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Ham
That's the little good that I remember. Seems once upon a time, I did the attention to detail, think it through, work hard, study, and be positive thing for LOVES sake- not obligation.
Ah, but the feeling of "superiority" it gave- leaven mixed in with it even back then.
I wonder why it never came to my attention the MILLIONS of other people, people that I never met, were doing the same things..
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def59
About the only thing good it taught me was showing me to concordances and lexicons. I can see the words for myself now.
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Belle
Wide range of beliefs on doctrine here. That's really interesting. What's amazing to me is those who think TWI was mostly right doctrinally. Or maybe just that there's such a high percentage of people who do based on the poll.
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oldiesman
When you consider the success of the offshoots, coupled with the effects of the meanness of L. Craigo driving tons of folks out who may very well still be there had there been more love in twi-2, you may come to the conclusion that lots of folks believe that most twi doctrine was correct for a very long time, and probably still do.
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Goey
I would say that a good portion of what was taught in PFAL was good doctrine(teaching). Jesus came, he died, he rose, God loves us, keys to understanding the bible, etc .... all prety good stuff.
However, the errors were huge and were in areas that caused many to stumble and for all practical purposes invalidated TWI (1 2, and 3) as any kind of legitimate ministry.
I am talking about things like, The Law of Believing, renewed mind, God wants you to have lots of stuff, tithing, obedience to leaders, don't give to the poor, over emphasis on power and manifestations at the expense of charity, redefining "love" to suit their purposes, etc
...
And...The practical errors were even more destructive than the doctrinal ones.
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Raf
Hey, thanks to the person who posted the Actual Errors stuff. Just a reminder that the list is in no way intended to be an exhaustive list of areas where I feel TWI was wrong: rather, that is a list of things that are indisputably wrong. The key word is indisputably. There's plenty of stuff I disagree with, but did not include on the list (Goey mentioned several).
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