Thanks Temple Lady, Thank you so much for not letting those fools shut you up.
TWI tried, Now you have people here trying to shut you up....WHY????
I don`t know why it is so important to people to discredit you.....ity`s like their whole self worth is tied up in keeping vp`s image untarnished.....
What you have to say is proof of what many of us suspected all along.
What you have to say exposes the evil of twi in a way that is undeniable.
The quicker we can come to grips with that, the sooner we can begin the evaluation and healing process.
If people are unaware of the evil practiced all the way to the very top levels in that group...they will likely remain unaware of the necessity of reevaluating doctrine and truths imparted by those who have proven themselves untrustworthey.
I never did answer your original question! I'm sawwry!
So here goes...(me in bold)
quote:
Originally posted by rascal:
How can God be thanked for a ministry that destroyed peoples lives?
Although this question may appear to some to be overly simplistic and 'unlearned', it is at the root of the problem with twi, imo.
To thank God for twi is, imo, like thanking God that there's a hell because otherwise Jesus could never have descended into hell and led captivity captive.
It's giving the glory to the organization and not God.
If God were being given the glory, then the being thankful would sound just like the scriptures. Something like, "Thank You, God, that even in the midst of hell(twi) You did not forget me and leave me there. You are an awesome God to descend to the place of Your enemies and lead me out with my life."
quote:
I guess that we praise him or curse him according to which side of the podium we were on when the man of God was quoting the scriptures.
If we were seated safely in the audience, we tend to think these scriptures taught were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
If we were trapped in the motor coach or bedroom the unwilling focus of the mog`s attention, the scriptures were utilized to ensure compliance, weapons leveled at our head to ensure silence.
To those of us seeking freedome from oppressive leaders, abusive spouses, rest from exhaustive required ministry involvement....the scriptures taught were the bars of the cage used to imprison us to someone elses will, other than our own :-(
The scriptures as taught, required our money to be given to and squandered by twi, our lives ....from where we lived, to who we lived with, whether we had children, all personal decisions were dictated by leaders good or bad....
God Almighty does not stomach such things kindly!
All throughout the bible are warnings to those who have authority over others. Warnings not to lead people into sin. Warnings not to bind the ox. Warnings not to abuse one's authority. Warnings not to abuse one's charges.
God set it in His order to have those who lead the fold. These people have specific responsibilities with the lives, hearts and minds of those over whom they have been given charge.
It is NOT a folly or foolishness or lack in us that subjects ourselves.
It is God's design.
And if we are led astray? Well, here's just one of the myriad scriptures addressing such a situation:
"15 the elder and honored man is the head, and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail; 16 for those who lead this people lead them astray, and those who are led by them are swallowed up. 17 Therefore the Lord does not rejoice over their young men, and has no compassion on their fatherless and widows; for every one is godless and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly. For all this his anger is not turned away and his hand is stretched out still. 18 For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. 20 They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbor's flesh," (Isaiah 9:15-20 Revised Standard)
Doesn't that just absolutely describe twi?
Read that whole chapter and see that God's wrath is kindled against such leaders.
Yes, the judgment falls upon the followers...while we still follow. How could it not? We are participating in an evil organization.
But the bible is also chock full of how God delivers out of the hands of such leaders. Psalms is all about God's deliverance from such leaders.
And GSC attests to the GOODNESS once delivered from such leaders.
quote:
Even if a person enjoyed their involvement in twi....How can one thank God once you are aware that while you were having fun....these people you are thanking God for were so callously abusing and betraying the trust ....
Because we were never taught right thinking about thankfulness.
It really is that simple.
You see, from the beginning we were taught to be thankful to twi, vpw, etc. Once that habit was established in our thinking, ever so slyly we were led to shift it to being thankful for twi, vpw, etc.
Finally, this error in thinking led to, "Thank God for twi, vpw, etc. or I would not have learned 'the word' or of 'god's love' without them/it."
Do you see the problem with this crooked thinking? It is simply a bald-faced lie.
The bible says the exact opposite! The bible says that if you ask bread, you will not be given a stone. The bible says that if you seek, you will. The bible says that He never leaves nor forsakes us.
TWI used these words of hope and comfort to make itself seem to be the thing for which we should be thankful.
TWI is the stone saying, "Be thankful for me! You could have had nothing at all."
quote:
It is hard for those betrayed to hear someone thanking God for a mans life or ministry that were directly responsible for so much of a persons personal pain.
As long as I thought the way twi taught me to think, any thankfulness to God was hard for me to hear.
All those years of being given a stone and told to be thankful that I was given something instead of nothing...
Well, it screwed up my thinking to the point that I figured that if a stone was all that God had to offer, then forget God.
And forgetting God, my dear rascal, is the absolute bottom line purpose of crooked teaching.
TWI not only teaches an absent Christ, twi teaches the doctrines of devils that lead to a forgetting of God.
In the end, what these people are really thankful for is not God, but a forgetting of God.
quote:
Could God really be responsible does he really deserve praise for such devistation wrought in his name?
I'm pretty sure this was a rhetorical question on your part. ;)-->
gee Allan... if we could all be as kind and compassionate as you... if we could all grow to the level of omniscient greatness you have achieved... if we could all strive to be the model christian you are... think of the possibilities...
I think its' pretty sad the way some of you feel the need to stroke each others hands whilst whispering words of encouragement.
Ever heard the saying 'stand on your own two feet' ?
And just whose two feet other than my own am I standing on???
And what about Jesus --here he went and had twelve Disciples and he whispered words of encouragement to them all the time--Boy was he out of line
And Then Paul in his letters--lots of encouragement there as well as telling the saints to stand together--uplift one another etc etc etc--clearly we now know that he was way off base
Damn right, I am thankfull for the support, kindness and wisdom of these folks.
Call it hand holding and whispers of encouragement if you wish Allan .... I thank GOD for the folks willing to give of themselves....but whatEVER you chose to call it, it certainly beats the hell out of the venom and spit that you have spewed since your arrival.
What the hell do you have REALLY got to offer anyone? What the hell good are you to anyone?
Do you REALLY think that by your actions here you are an inspiration?
Do you REALLY think that your actions here magnify God?
Do you really think that God would want you to treat us this way?
I got to the point after applying those principles unsuccessfully, that it appeared that it was GOD who was screwed up....I spent a lot of time feeling betrayed ....
Why if God loved me didn`t I get led to a legitimate Christian organization?
Why if God loved me didn`t he work when I applied the principles....
I never dreamed that my understanding of him as presented in twi might have been what was at fault.
I have wondered if what we were taught didn`t have the effect of drawing us away frpm or *forgetting* God.
Good points Mo, we were so busy focusing on doing things JUST right, trying desperatly to dot all i`s and cross all t`s in order to avoid leaving open doors for Satan....that we were unable to enjoy the simple pleasures of fellowship with other saints.
I also felt devastated when I was marked I thought God hated me and I was doomed.
but I learned I was listening to people. God quickly came for real in my life when nearly no one eles was left who I thought once shined so brightas knowing HIM failed.
I was never way corps and I was NOT in the twi for decades, although I struggled with the issues it brought me for decades and then another one with the off shoots. I really can not imagine how somone from a life time involvement and all family friends involved can see past it without some force happening the law suits and LCM and Chris Geer really said alot and I believe those who lived through all that time and choas will never leave the only life they know now some are friends of mine from high school that I witnessed to and we are all middle age now.
I thank God some of us did tho.
another thing is the fact corps or wows had to move away from any family or friends they had in the world outside of the way.
it isolated folks it forced them to be with only way people for support or encouragement . it set people in stone , all people need family and friends. to take people and strip away that resource in day by day living makes them weaker to listen to stuff they may not really agree with, but with no one eles a kind of unity out of dysfunction happens. an us or them mentality.
CW. post was is a very good I couldnt have said it better.
Like I said before and I was pretty clear..all I wanted to do was'expose' the motives for some of posting what you do about 'doctrinal truths'
Can you HONESTLY say a 'professed' Pagan or Wicca or Mormon or whatever is going to post 'unbiased' comments on what many still know and believe to be truths from Gods' Word.?
Now people know where some of you are 'coming from' with your postings.
And thanks for showing that some of you can be as demeaning, snide, viscious as some of the people in the ministry many of us walked away from.
Hi Allan - if you are interested in doctrinal discussions there is a forum for it. This particlar forum isn't really about debating doctrinal issues, it is for discussing our experiences and thoughts regarding TWI.
Like I said before and I was pretty clear..all I wanted to do was'expose' the motives for some of posting what you do about 'doctrinal truths'
No, you're here to recruit for your organization.
So much for "honesty".
Plus, this is not the DOCTRINAL forum, where we discuss DOCTRINE.
quote:
Can you HONESTLY say a 'professed' Pagan or Wicca or Mormon or whatever is going to post 'unbiased' comments on what many still know and believe to be truths from Gods' Word.?
They can approach them FAIRLY and without ATTACK.
They have done so.
You have not demonstrated a similar ability-not even about other Christians in other
Christian organization. Therefore, you are more "biased" than them.
quote:
Now people know where some of you are 'coming from' with your postings.
Chihuahua, Mexico?
quote:
And thanks for showing that some of you can be as demeaning, snide, viscious as some of the people in the ministry many of us walked away from.
Your posts, to date, have been more demeaning, on a whole, than almost anyone else's here.
The sheer HYPOCRISY of you calling OTHERS demeaning would be overwhelming,
Can you HONESTLY say a 'professed' Pagan or Wicca or Mormon or whatever is going to post 'unbiased' comments on what many still know and believe to be truths from Gods' Word.?
Conversely, can you HONESTLY say a 'professed' Christian is going to post unbiased comments on what many "know and believe" to be truths from what they (Wiccans, Pagans, Mormons, ad nauseum) regard as holy texts?
Seems to me, the purpose of religion is to tell the 'faithful' that people outside the group are the ones going to hell. Of course, they (the faithful) aren't, because they're the only ones on the planet who have the most 'rightly divided' word of God.
I dunno, if God is that picky, I would probably rather spend eternity in the grave than what most call 'heaven'.
I know that there were some really kind leaders in twi, but I think it is as you say...they were that way before becoming involved.
I see that in a friend of mine who is a mormon....really a spiritually sharp lady...she attributes her growth to her church....I can see that it is something that she brings with her in spite of their teaching... her outstanding walk and understanding and contribution can make her church seem really nice.
I have seen the same thing with a couple of my catholic friends and a couple of methodist ministers rthat are neighbors....really great folks that serve selflessly, that have that special I dunno *spark* spiritually ...yet you cannot attribute it to any one doctrine or church.
I am not denying that there were many in twi that were really loving and kind....I wonder if they were that way in SPITE of twi doctrine and practice......I think also that these folks kind as they were, made twi seem a more spiritually wholesome place than it actually was....lending it a sense of legitimacy.....thus our varied experiences.
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Allan
I don't know..try JWs', LDS, Pagan rituals and sacrifices ??
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WordWolf
Characteristic, Allan.
I can't tell if this post was mostly offensive, mostly careless or mostly ignorant.
Probably all of the above.
In Proverbs, it says that even a fool appears wise when he shuts up.
You might consider appearing wise for a few days.
You probably WON'T, but you might consider it.
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rascal
Thanks Temple Lady, Thank you so much for not letting those fools shut you up.
TWI tried, Now you have people here trying to shut you up....WHY????
I don`t know why it is so important to people to discredit you.....ity`s like their whole self worth is tied up in keeping vp`s image untarnished.....
What you have to say is proof of what many of us suspected all along.
What you have to say exposes the evil of twi in a way that is undeniable.
The quicker we can come to grips with that, the sooner we can begin the evaluation and healing process.
If people are unaware of the evil practiced all the way to the very top levels in that group...they will likely remain unaware of the necessity of reevaluating doctrine and truths imparted by those who have proven themselves untrustworthey.
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CoolWaters
{{{{{rascal}}}}}
I never did answer your original question!
I'm sawwry!
So here goes...(me in bold)
Although this question may appear to some to be overly simplistic and 'unlearned', it is at the root of the problem with twi, imo.
To thank God for twi is, imo, like thanking God that there's a hell because otherwise Jesus could never have descended into hell and led captivity captive.
It's giving the glory to the organization and not God.
If God were being given the glory, then the being thankful would sound just like the scriptures. Something like, "Thank You, God, that even in the midst of hell(twi) You did not forget me and leave me there. You are an awesome God to descend to the place of Your enemies and lead me out with my life."
God Almighty does not stomach such things kindly!
All throughout the bible are warnings to those who have authority over others. Warnings not to lead people into sin. Warnings not to bind the ox. Warnings not to abuse one's authority. Warnings not to abuse one's charges.
God set it in His order to have those who lead the fold. These people have specific responsibilities with the lives, hearts and minds of those over whom they have been given charge.
It is NOT a folly or foolishness or lack in us that subjects ourselves.
It is God's design.
And if we are led astray? Well, here's just one of the myriad scriptures addressing such a situation:
"15 the elder and honored man is the head, and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail; 16 for those who lead this people lead them astray, and those who are led by them are swallowed up. 17 Therefore the Lord does not rejoice over their young men, and has no compassion on their fatherless and widows; for every one is godless and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly. For all this his anger is not turned away and his hand is stretched out still. 18 For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. 20 They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbor's flesh," (Isaiah 9:15-20 Revised Standard)
Doesn't that just absolutely describe twi?
Read that whole chapter and see that God's wrath is kindled against such leaders.
Yes, the judgment falls upon the followers...while we still follow. How could it not? We are participating in an evil organization.
But the bible is also chock full of how God delivers out of the hands of such leaders. Psalms is all about God's deliverance from such leaders.
And GSC attests to the GOODNESS once delivered from such leaders.
Because we were never taught right thinking about thankfulness.
It really is that simple.
You see, from the beginning we were taught to be thankful to twi, vpw, etc. Once that habit was established in our thinking, ever so slyly we were led to shift it to being thankful for twi, vpw, etc.
Finally, this error in thinking led to, "Thank God for twi, vpw, etc. or I would not have learned 'the word' or of 'god's love' without them/it."
Do you see the problem with this crooked thinking? It is simply a bald-faced lie.
The bible says the exact opposite! The bible says that if you ask bread, you will not be given a stone. The bible says that if you seek, you will. The bible says that He never leaves nor forsakes us.
TWI used these words of hope and comfort to make itself seem to be the thing for which we should be thankful.
TWI is the stone saying, "Be thankful for me! You could have had nothing at all."
As long as I thought the way twi taught me to think, any thankfulness to God was hard for me to hear.
All those years of being given a stone and told to be thankful that I was given something instead of nothing...
Well, it screwed up my thinking to the point that I figured that if a stone was all that God had to offer, then forget God.
And forgetting God, my dear rascal, is the absolute bottom line purpose of crooked teaching.
TWI not only teaches an absent Christ, twi teaches the doctrines of devils that lead to a forgetting of God.
In the end, what these people are really thankful for is not God, but a forgetting of God.
I'm pretty sure this was a rhetorical question on your part.
;)-->
I love you gal!!!!
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Allan
I think its' pretty sad the way some of you feel the need to stroke each others hands whilst whispering words of encouragement.
Ever heard the saying 'stand on your own two feet' ?
Then maybe you won't 'attract' so much cr*p in life !!
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Allan
I notice even Wordwolf gets a bit 'vindictive' and 'accusatory' when the surface is 'scratched'!
So much for a 'veneer' of 'wise aloofness' !!
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Ham
Yep. Just sit back, and let your neighbor get the beating of a lifetime. Don't want to get messy, or anything..
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Tom Strange
gee Allan... if we could all be as kind and compassionate as you... if we could all grow to the level of omniscient greatness you have achieved... if we could all strive to be the model christian you are... think of the possibilities...
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CoolWaters
Wow.
You have mastered I Corinthians 12 and 13.
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templelady
And just whose two feet other than my own am I standing on???
And what about Jesus --here he went and had twelve Disciples and he whispered words of encouragement to them all the time--Boy was he out of line
And Then Paul in his letters--lots of encouragement there as well as telling the saints to stand together--uplift one another etc etc etc--clearly we now know that he was way off base
Thanks Allen for clearing things up
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rascal
Damn right, I am thankfull for the support, kindness and wisdom of these folks.
Call it hand holding and whispers of encouragement if you wish Allan .... I thank GOD for the folks willing to give of themselves....but whatEVER you chose to call it, it certainly beats the hell out of the venom and spit that you have spewed since your arrival.
What the hell do you have REALLY got to offer anyone? What the hell good are you to anyone?
Do you REALLY think that by your actions here you are an inspiration?
Do you REALLY think that your actions here magnify God?
Do you really think that God would want you to treat us this way?
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krys
He's a good example of how not to live life.
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rascal
I guess that was pretty mean....but shoot, if all you do is attack people, try to hurt, try to discredit, try to cause fights, insult....
What are you actually doing of benefit?
I am bewildered as to why anyone would be offended by folks here being kind to one another.
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rascal
CW, Thanks, that makes a lot of sense...
I got to the point after applying those principles unsuccessfully, that it appeared that it was GOD who was screwed up....I spent a lot of time feeling betrayed ....
Why if God loved me didn`t I get led to a legitimate Christian organization?
Why if God loved me didn`t he work when I applied the principles....
I never dreamed that my understanding of him as presented in twi might have been what was at fault.
I have wondered if what we were taught didn`t have the effect of drawing us away frpm or *forgetting* God.
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rascal
Good points Mo, we were so busy focusing on doing things JUST right, trying desperatly to dot all i`s and cross all t`s in order to avoid leaving open doors for Satan....that we were unable to enjoy the simple pleasures of fellowship with other saints.
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Goey
Posted by Alan,
Alan, I think it's pretty sad that you feel the need to attack folks without cause or reason.
And you say you are a Christian? What a crock!
Why don't you just slither back into your cave?
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mj412
I also felt devastated when I was marked I thought God hated me and I was doomed.
but I learned I was listening to people. God quickly came for real in my life when nearly no one eles was left who I thought once shined so brightas knowing HIM failed.
I was never way corps and I was NOT in the twi for decades, although I struggled with the issues it brought me for decades and then another one with the off shoots. I really can not imagine how somone from a life time involvement and all family friends involved can see past it without some force happening the law suits and LCM and Chris Geer really said alot and I believe those who lived through all that time and choas will never leave the only life they know now some are friends of mine from high school that I witnessed to and we are all middle age now.
I thank God some of us did tho.
another thing is the fact corps or wows had to move away from any family or friends they had in the world outside of the way.
it isolated folks it forced them to be with only way people for support or encouragement . it set people in stone , all people need family and friends. to take people and strip away that resource in day by day living makes them weaker to listen to stuff they may not really agree with, but with no one eles a kind of unity out of dysfunction happens. an us or them mentality.
CW. post was is a very good I couldnt have said it better.
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Allan
Like I said before and I was pretty clear..all I wanted to do was'expose' the motives for some of posting what you do about 'doctrinal truths'
Can you HONESTLY say a 'professed' Pagan or Wicca or Mormon or whatever is going to post 'unbiased' comments on what many still know and believe to be truths from Gods' Word.?
Now people know where some of you are 'coming from' with your postings.
And thanks for showing that some of you can be as demeaning, snide, viscious as some of the people in the ministry many of us walked away from.
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Abigail
Hi Allan - if you are interested in doctrinal discussions there is a forum for it. This particlar forum isn't really about debating doctrinal issues, it is for discussing our experiences and thoughts regarding TWI.
Just in case you weren't aware.
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WordWolf
No, you're here to recruit for your organization.
So much for "honesty".
Plus, this is not the DOCTRINAL forum, where we discuss DOCTRINE.
They can approach them FAIRLY and without ATTACK.
They have done so.
You have not demonstrated a similar ability-not even about other Christians in other
Christian organization. Therefore, you are more "biased" than them.
Chihuahua, Mexico?
Your posts, to date, have been more demeaning, on a whole, than almost anyone else's here.
The sheer HYPOCRISY of you calling OTHERS demeaning would be overwhelming,
if you still had a conscience.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Conversely, can you HONESTLY say a 'professed' Christian is going to post unbiased comments on what many "know and believe" to be truths from what they (Wiccans, Pagans, Mormons, ad nauseum) regard as holy texts?
Seems to me, the purpose of religion is to tell the 'faithful' that people outside the group are the ones going to hell. Of course, they (the faithful) aren't, because they're the only ones on the planet who have the most 'rightly divided' word of God.
I dunno, if God is that picky, I would probably rather spend eternity in the grave than what most call 'heaven'.
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templelady
Zooommminnngg back to the topic.....
I really don't know if cursing TWI works--I mean they are still here
THe offshoots are still here
The Way brained are still amoung us
BUt I, for one can't, praise them there isn't anything praiseworthy about them
The people I met who were praiseworthy were praiseworthy in spite of TWI
I still would like an answer to the question I posted on another thread--
CAn anyone tell us of any leadership that became, better, more loving, more Christlike, becuase of their continued association with TWI????
That is the litmus test...
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rascal
Good point mo.
I know that there were some really kind leaders in twi, but I think it is as you say...they were that way before becoming involved.
I see that in a friend of mine who is a mormon....really a spiritually sharp lady...she attributes her growth to her church....I can see that it is something that she brings with her in spite of their teaching... her outstanding walk and understanding and contribution can make her church seem really nice.
I have seen the same thing with a couple of my catholic friends and a couple of methodist ministers rthat are neighbors....really great folks that serve selflessly, that have that special I dunno *spark* spiritually ...yet you cannot attribute it to any one doctrine or church.
I am not denying that there were many in twi that were really loving and kind....I wonder if they were that way in SPITE of twi doctrine and practice......I think also that these folks kind as they were, made twi seem a more spiritually wholesome place than it actually was....lending it a sense of legitimacy.....thus our varied experiences.
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Brother Speed
Mo, in all honesty I cannot.
However, in the world that we live in with unlimited variables, I would believe that someone actually has.
But, if I change a word of your question to 'discontinuation', I would say that there are very many, a few of them post here even.
And may God richly bless each and every one of you.
;)-->
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