i recall how, when we met and hung out, my thoughts on that apparent contradiction during the infamous ascension of Jesus seemed to pique your interest a bit (though we were also saying goodnight at the time...so off we went)
and so, i was wondering if you've given any time to it since?
i can elaborate on any of it (if you want, or dare...lol). also, i think i brought it up this or the previous page of this thread.
Mike, that last post of yours was beautiful and powerful
I would agree. Probably the soundest argument I think I have ever heard you put forth Mike..
"and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"
One more point to throw into the fray: it says "many" bodies of the saints, not "all". Could this possibly give David an exemption to this alleged "ressurection"?
Thank you for your evaluation of my post on Psalm 16. There's not much in that that's my reasoning, though.
I believe that I use the same kind of logic in all my posts: simple recognition of authority. Because I recognize Dr's writings as authoritative, many emotions are upset and the logic I employ is not seen, simply due to mentioning his name or PFAL.
Back to the topic of this thread.
Thanks also to you, sirguessalot, for recognizing the simple adherence to everyday life the stripped down version of the Matt 27 verse seems to report. Think how many people saw New Orleans coffins afloat in just the past week even!!!
As for consciousness of any sort immediately after death (of the flesh and brain) it sounds to me that many of you have not yet mastered "Are the dead Alive Now?" (Did I just hear a lot of emotional buttons clicking? :D-->)
When I first encountered this book I was stunned at how slim it was, especially its one thesis chapter. Plus, I was very appreciative at how simple the whole subject becomes when total unconsciousness of the dead is recognized. The ONE common error in ALL major religions is the immediate (and usually upgraded) form of consciousness that is supposed to be granted to the departed one. All that religion stems from the first lie told to Eve. It makes God look like the one with the power of death, when it's clearly the devil (Heb 2:14).
The utter simplicity of seeing death as not a friend, not a door, not a reunion with God, but as AN ENEMY was exhilarating to me when I first stumbled into a fellowship. It is priceless knowledge to know that God is not a skitzo who tells us not to kill, but who brazenly offs people at his own mysterious whim. To know that God is always willing and able to deliver us from death is crucial to living in fellowship with Him.
There are many forces at work to obscure this Loving God. They started with Eve swallowing the first lie, and they helped ease the consciences of those scribes who butchered Matt 27. These hurricane forces have seen to it that both Western religions and Eastern subscribe to the idea that death isn't all that bad after all, ignoring the shortest verse in the KJV where it states that Jesus wept over hearing of his best friend's death. Now many PFAL grads (who SHOULD know better had they even only carefully read ADAN) are flirting with these forces as if they are benevolent winds of doctrine!
The first mention of death in our versions of the Bible is God telling His people how to avoid it. The first promise of the Savior focuses at destroying the death dealing power of the devil.
In Acts we see in every speech given by believers that Jesus' resurrection is the key element.
In Romans we see it's by believing in our hearts in the God Who conquered death in the Lord Jesus that we are saved.
I was also amazed when I studied the several chapters in ADAN that dealt with common errors in how certain verses are handled. The fact that traditional churcianity has only about 9 or ten verses to support the idea of immediate life after death is noteworthy.
Long before I came back to master PFAL I had found hundreds of KJV verses that say there is total unconsciousness for the dead. To think that traditional churches ignore all those verses and then lean with all their weight on a small handful of verses is tragic!
Not only are there only a small number of verses that support tradition, but some of them aren't even full verses, or complete sentences, but mere phrases! Those who look to these verses usually strip them of context in order to twist them into the pretzel of tradition.
There was only one difficult passage in these commonly misunderstoood scriptures, and that is the story of the rich man and the poor man who die and then converse with Abraham. THAT one took a while for me to settle, but eventually even that one lined up with the whole of the scriptures.
Brain scientists have noted that as a person lies on their back, the occipital lobe of the brain (where sight occurs) is low and can receive some blood via gravity, even when the heart stops. Some have speculated that the "light at the end of a tunnel" reports from near death victims could find some explanation in this. A physiological effect of light sensation, coupled with a totally incapacitated discrimination facilties, coupled with pre-written expectations, and these near death reports loose supernatural credibility. But this is only speculation.
From my old notes I also have a firsthand, authoritative account of the dying experience. Jesus compared his 3 days in the grave with Jonah's 3 days in the "whale." Many theologians have done handstands to agree with or to disagree with a literal interpretation of Jonah, but most miss the very simple explanation that Jonah DIED in the whale's belly. Jesus saw this and took comfort that God would rescue him like He did Jonah from the grip of death.
It doesn't look like Jonah enjoyed his trip into sheol. Here is the NIV of Jonah 2:
1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.
2 He said: "In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
3 You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.
4 I said, 'I have been banished from your sight; yet I will look again toward your holy temple.'
5 The engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.
7 When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, LORD, and my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple.
8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.
9 But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from the LORD."
10 And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.
For what it is worth, I "died" several times & had to be brought back by doctors, & I don't remember seeing any light at the end of any tunnel. Actually, I don't remember anything about these death experiences - silly me, I figured it was because I was dead.
I realize that is purely anecdotal, but then again, so are the light at the end of the tunnel experiences. Not too many of those anecdotes saying, "Oh yeah, I saw dead people all over the place; real population problem on the other side."
Another item in my files is "the Idiom of Permission" from either the AC or one of the seminars. This helps a lot in understanding the OT and many places where God's name is associated with death, especially when one includes the "Viewpoints" chapter in WWAY. The exact details of the death of King Saul open up many OT verses.
Hee is a copy of the idiom as I received it.
*******
AN EXPLANATION OF THE IDIOM OF PERMISSION
In the Old Testament there are many apparent contradictions that revolve around the general theme of God killing or hurting someone. The flood of Noah, the Tower of Babel, the Sodom and Gomorrah incident and the plagues upon Egypt all fall into this category and there are many others. These incidents seem to contradict what we know from the New Testament about our heavenly Father.
To understand these records and verses one must understand idioms used in the Bible. An idiom is a usage of words in a culture that have a meaning other than their strict dictionary definition. For example, in American vernacular if someone says, “Mr. Jones kicked the bucket last week,†that is an idiomatic way of saying, “Mr. Jones died last week.†In the Old Testament, God uses an idiom in which a verb is used in a permissive sense. What is written as the Lord “smote Uzzah†was actually the Lord “allowed Uzzah to be smitten. God set up His laws and man can break himself on them if he so desires. God also set up the law of gravity, but only a fool would think that God killed a man who jumped off a ten-story building. The man killed himself by violating God’s law of gravity. So the true picture in the Scripture is that the Adversary kills, hurts, and harms. Man allows this to happen as he attempts to break God’s laws.
God used the idiom of permission for several reasons. The idiom of permission does not glorify the adversary. Imagine how the Old Testament would read if everything the adversary did to man was attributed to him. We would read about the adversary on every page! This would be clearly out of harmony with God’s commandment in Exodus 23:13, and would not be a blessing to God’s people to read. Furthermore, people in the Old Testament were not equipped to deal with the adversary. If God had revealed the adversary to people who could not deal with him, the people would have become fearful, and been worse off for their knowledge. The adversary was not fully comprehended until Jesus Christ revealed and defeated him (Luke 10:23,24).
Jesus Christ never blamed any sickness, death, or evil on God. The reason that the people in the Old Testament did was due to the fact that God had not yet revealed the adversary. This explains verses like Job 1:21 and I Samuel 2:6. Today most people (even Christians) do not believe in the adversary. They have forgotten the teaching of Jesus Christ and have become “zealous for the law,†attributing sickness and death to the true God.
In many examples of this idiom in the Old Testament, the people being hurt were the enemies of God. The question has arisen as to why the adversary would hinder people who oppose God. The people who oppose God set themselves against the law of God and break themselves on it. The Word shows us that the Devil is as much hate as God is love and does kill his own people on occasion.
I have in my files a newspaper account from the movie star Jerry Lewis who described his "death" of 20 years ago as dark, lonely, cold, and very unpleasant. Not all the dying experience the "light" by a long shot, but those who do have no trouble getting their story published far and wide. The adversary has a HUGE stake in promoting his first lie, so he assists with his publishing contacts.
I assume with no hesitation that all experiences (both negative and seemingly positive) surrounding such a set of circumstances as heart stoppage occur either in the seconds before or in the seconds after flat lining. Likewise, most dreams are very short and occur just before or just after deep sleep. This is measurable to some extent with modern technology.
I also think there may be times when the True God gives a genuine vision to help heal a person in dire straits like this. How that person interprets such a vision my be doctrinaly inaccurate, but it can still get the job done.
Thanks Mike for caring about the Word..the original question only recently came up amongst one of our fellowships..I now have more info to explain to Gods' wonderful people !!
Some interesting stuff lately. Haven't had as much time as I'd like to get in on it, but have been reading as I can. Only one thing popped out at me to question. The verse "Jesus wept." Did he weep because Lazarus died? He knew that was going to happen. I think he wept at the unbelief surrounding him, because he also knew he would bring Lazarus back from the dead. Hate for my only comment to be negative, but perhaps it will shed some light to someone.
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waysider
Film at 11:00! The suspense is killing me./s
Oakspear
if you don't believe that the bible is godbreathed, then there's no problem
Mike
Here is a rough OCR version of the article: Early Patristic Evidence for the Forgery of Matthew 27:52b and 53 Daniel L. McConaughy Seventh Way Corps Way Magazine May
Posted Images
TheInvisibleDan
"Acts" is indeed a "post-Pentecost" writing.
And varied in its death/afterlife views.
Peter makes his miraculous escape from prison, led by an angel through the gates and past the sleeping guards.
He goes to a house and knocks on the door. But those within the house initially refuse to open the door, fearing that "it is his angel".
The literal usage, "messenger" for angel doesn't work here.
Why fear opening the door to a mailman or delivery boy?
No, the supernatural import is intended.
The thought of encountering a supernatural being provokes fear and awe and apprehension.
Who was this being behind the door thought to be by those within the house?
"The angel of Peter"
How could they had thought that Peter had become an angel?
Had they thought that Peter had been executed?
The promise was in the air; Jesus Himself had taught that the "sons of the resurrection" or the sons of the (new) Aeon become "like the angels".
Danny
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sirguessalot
i think we would probably do good for us to agree to disagree, Thom
too many "fundamental" differences, ya know?
(though we might also agree on more than it seems)
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Mike
Thomas,
Thank you. Those simple scriptures did a lot for me many years ago.
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sirguessalot
hey Mike
i recall how, when we met and hung out, my thoughts on that apparent contradiction during the infamous ascension of Jesus seemed to pique your interest a bit (though we were also saying goodnight at the time...so off we went)
and so, i was wondering if you've given any time to it since?
i can elaborate on any of it (if you want, or dare...lol). also, i think i brought it up this or the previous page of this thread.
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Mike
Hi Todd,
I can't say I remember that portion of our get together.
What aparent contradiction are you refering to?
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sirguessalot
thinking of acts 1:11
Bullinger seems to have missed it, too
i suspect mostly another common mistake of historic cultural idiom regarding the word "heaven"
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Mike
Oh THAT verse!
That verse IS very interesting to me, but I don't know of any apparent contradiction that clouds it.
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sirguessalot
oh, i'm sure yer smart enough to spot it
also ironic how it ended up verse 111
and there are 3 heavens used in it
quite a blinker, imo
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Mike
I can say much on that verse, but it would be far from the topic of this thread.
Besides... I tired and ready for bed. I don't think I could do the subject justice in between yawns.
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sirguessalot
sorry. not trying to drop you from the rafters or anything
nice dodge, though, especially for a night owl in the Pacific Time Zone
and quite ha ha funny, too, how you wrote "That verse IS very interesting to me, but I don't know of any apparent contradiction that clouds it."
(italics mine)
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Ham
I would agree. Probably the soundest argument I think I have ever heard you put forth Mike..
"and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"
One more point to throw into the fray: it says "many" bodies of the saints, not "all". Could this possibly give David an exemption to this alleged "ressurection"?
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CM
A question to ask would be what is dead and buried and what is not. Even if you believe in a future gathering together.
Personally there are some things I don't want. And a new body sounds great!
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Mike
Mr Hammeroni,
Thank you for your evaluation of my post on Psalm 16. There's not much in that that's my reasoning, though.
I believe that I use the same kind of logic in all my posts: simple recognition of authority. Because I recognize Dr's writings as authoritative, many emotions are upset and the logic I employ is not seen, simply due to mentioning his name or PFAL.
Back to the topic of this thread.
Thanks also to you, sirguessalot, for recognizing the simple adherence to everyday life the stripped down version of the Matt 27 verse seems to report. Think how many people saw New Orleans coffins afloat in just the past week even!!!
As for consciousness of any sort immediately after death (of the flesh and brain) it sounds to me that many of you have not yet mastered "Are the dead Alive Now?" (Did I just hear a lot of emotional buttons clicking?
:D-->)
When I first encountered this book I was stunned at how slim it was, especially its one thesis chapter. Plus, I was very appreciative at how simple the whole subject becomes when total unconsciousness of the dead is recognized. The ONE common error in ALL major religions is the immediate (and usually upgraded) form of consciousness that is supposed to be granted to the departed one. All that religion stems from the first lie told to Eve. It makes God look like the one with the power of death, when it's clearly the devil (Heb 2:14).
The utter simplicity of seeing death as not a friend, not a door, not a reunion with God, but as AN ENEMY was exhilarating to me when I first stumbled into a fellowship. It is priceless knowledge to know that God is not a skitzo who tells us not to kill, but who brazenly offs people at his own mysterious whim. To know that God is always willing and able to deliver us from death is crucial to living in fellowship with Him.
There are many forces at work to obscure this Loving God. They started with Eve swallowing the first lie, and they helped ease the consciences of those scribes who butchered Matt 27. These hurricane forces have seen to it that both Western religions and Eastern subscribe to the idea that death isn't all that bad after all, ignoring the shortest verse in the KJV where it states that Jesus wept over hearing of his best friend's death. Now many PFAL grads (who SHOULD know better had they even only carefully read ADAN) are flirting with these forces as if they are benevolent winds of doctrine!
The first mention of death in our versions of the Bible is God telling His people how to avoid it. The first promise of the Savior focuses at destroying the death dealing power of the devil.
In Acts we see in every speech given by believers that Jesus' resurrection is the key element.
In Romans we see it's by believing in our hearts in the God Who conquered death in the Lord Jesus that we are saved.
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CM
oh yeah mike say it's emotion, or say your too tired, or use whatever you choose to avoid a simple conversation and reasoning.
A critical look and evaluation of "Are The Dead Alive Now" is not in your game plan is it. Want to take it on?
What you mean by mastering it is far from what the word master actually means.
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Mike
I was also amazed when I studied the several chapters in ADAN that dealt with common errors in how certain verses are handled. The fact that traditional churcianity has only about 9 or ten verses to support the idea of immediate life after death is noteworthy.
Long before I came back to master PFAL I had found hundreds of KJV verses that say there is total unconsciousness for the dead. To think that traditional churches ignore all those verses and then lean with all their weight on a small handful of verses is tragic!
Not only are there only a small number of verses that support tradition, but some of them aren't even full verses, or complete sentences, but mere phrases! Those who look to these verses usually strip them of context in order to twist them into the pretzel of tradition.
There was only one difficult passage in these commonly misunderstoood scriptures, and that is the story of the rich man and the poor man who die and then converse with Abraham. THAT one took a while for me to settle, but eventually even that one lined up with the whole of the scriptures.
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Mike
Brain scientists have noted that as a person lies on their back, the occipital lobe of the brain (where sight occurs) is low and can receive some blood via gravity, even when the heart stops. Some have speculated that the "light at the end of a tunnel" reports from near death victims could find some explanation in this. A physiological effect of light sensation, coupled with a totally incapacitated discrimination facilties, coupled with pre-written expectations, and these near death reports loose supernatural credibility. But this is only speculation.
From my old notes I also have a firsthand, authoritative account of the dying experience. Jesus compared his 3 days in the grave with Jonah's 3 days in the "whale." Many theologians have done handstands to agree with or to disagree with a literal interpretation of Jonah, but most miss the very simple explanation that Jonah DIED in the whale's belly. Jesus saw this and took comfort that God would rescue him like He did Jonah from the grip of death.
It doesn't look like Jonah enjoyed his trip into sheol. Here is the NIV of Jonah 2:
1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.
2 He said: "In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
3 You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.
4 I said, 'I have been banished from your sight; yet I will look again toward your holy temple.'
5 The engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.
7 When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, LORD, and my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple.
8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.
9 But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from the LORD."
10 And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.
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Tom
For what it is worth, I "died" several times & had to be brought back by doctors, & I don't remember seeing any light at the end of any tunnel. Actually, I don't remember anything about these death experiences - silly me, I figured it was because I was dead.
I realize that is purely anecdotal, but then again, so are the light at the end of the tunnel experiences. Not too many of those anecdotes saying, "Oh yeah, I saw dead people all over the place; real population problem on the other side."
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Tom
Probably because they've already come back as frogs & such.
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Mike
Another item in my files is "the Idiom of Permission" from either the AC or one of the seminars. This helps a lot in understanding the OT and many places where God's name is associated with death, especially when one includes the "Viewpoints" chapter in WWAY. The exact details of the death of King Saul open up many OT verses.
Hee is a copy of the idiom as I received it.
*******
AN EXPLANATION OF THE IDIOM OF PERMISSION
In the Old Testament there are many apparent contradictions that revolve around the general theme of God killing or hurting someone. The flood of Noah, the Tower of Babel, the Sodom and Gomorrah incident and the plagues upon Egypt all fall into this category and there are many others. These incidents seem to contradict what we know from the New Testament about our heavenly Father.
To understand these records and verses one must understand idioms used in the Bible. An idiom is a usage of words in a culture that have a meaning other than their strict dictionary definition. For example, in American vernacular if someone says, “Mr. Jones kicked the bucket last week,†that is an idiomatic way of saying, “Mr. Jones died last week.†In the Old Testament, God uses an idiom in which a verb is used in a permissive sense. What is written as the Lord “smote Uzzah†was actually the Lord “allowed Uzzah to be smitten. God set up His laws and man can break himself on them if he so desires. God also set up the law of gravity, but only a fool would think that God killed a man who jumped off a ten-story building. The man killed himself by violating God’s law of gravity. So the true picture in the Scripture is that the Adversary kills, hurts, and harms. Man allows this to happen as he attempts to break God’s laws.
God used the idiom of permission for several reasons. The idiom of permission does not glorify the adversary. Imagine how the Old Testament would read if everything the adversary did to man was attributed to him. We would read about the adversary on every page! This would be clearly out of harmony with God’s commandment in Exodus 23:13, and would not be a blessing to God’s people to read. Furthermore, people in the Old Testament were not equipped to deal with the adversary. If God had revealed the adversary to people who could not deal with him, the people would have become fearful, and been worse off for their knowledge. The adversary was not fully comprehended until Jesus Christ revealed and defeated him (Luke 10:23,24).
Jesus Christ never blamed any sickness, death, or evil on God. The reason that the people in the Old Testament did was due to the fact that God had not yet revealed the adversary. This explains verses like Job 1:21 and I Samuel 2:6. Today most people (even Christians) do not believe in the adversary. They have forgotten the teaching of Jesus Christ and have become “zealous for the law,†attributing sickness and death to the true God.
In many examples of this idiom in the Old Testament, the people being hurt were the enemies of God. The question has arisen as to why the adversary would hinder people who oppose God. The people who oppose God set themselves against the law of God and break themselves on it. The Word shows us that the Devil is as much hate as God is love and does kill his own people on occasion.
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Mike
Thomas,
I have in my files a newspaper account from the movie star Jerry Lewis who described his "death" of 20 years ago as dark, lonely, cold, and very unpleasant. Not all the dying experience the "light" by a long shot, but those who do have no trouble getting their story published far and wide. The adversary has a HUGE stake in promoting his first lie, so he assists with his publishing contacts.
I assume with no hesitation that all experiences (both negative and seemingly positive) surrounding such a set of circumstances as heart stoppage occur either in the seconds before or in the seconds after flat lining. Likewise, most dreams are very short and occur just before or just after deep sleep. This is measurable to some extent with modern technology.
I also think there may be times when the True God gives a genuine vision to help heal a person in dire straits like this. How that person interprets such a vision my be doctrinaly inaccurate, but it can still get the job done.
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Allan
Thanks Mike for caring about the Word..the original question only recently came up amongst one of our fellowships..I now have more info to explain to Gods' wonderful people !!
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irisheyes
Some interesting stuff lately. Haven't had as much time as I'd like to get in on it, but have been reading as I can. Only one thing popped out at me to question. The verse "Jesus wept." Did he weep because Lazarus died? He knew that was going to happen. I think he wept at the unbelief surrounding him, because he also knew he would bring Lazarus back from the dead. Hate for my only comment to be negative, but perhaps it will shed some light to someone.
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Tom
Irisheyes,
"He knew that was going to happen."
Did he? Human beings don't know everyting that's going to happen.
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CM
I think he wept with compassion and passion and love which precedes the great things of God
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