Any validity in reading the NT in the light of death before dying notwithstanding, the light which the lamp unto our feet shines forth concerning death in the section on the last enemy to be destroyed seems to clearly be an exposition concerning simple old physical death.
The question was "and why does this being raised have to be a group thing?"
The answer seems simple - it happens "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." No? One moment, THE twinking - there is only one last trump.
And do you hear trumpets when you die before you die too? And are they all the last trumpet also? And are those trumpets just some more of those perceptions regarding the last ememy, death - experiential trumpets, but not really trumpets, trumpeting in the last enemy, death, which is really not an enemy, but is only perceived to be an enemy and is really not death either?
I don't see that you have any reason not to believe that these scriptures mean what they say literally.
Death is real.
"meeting the Lord in the air
how close is the air?"
Is there a reason for this question? In the air is about as simple as it gets. Because it doesn't say exactly 100' in the air doesn't make it figurative nor subject to whatever your mind wants to make it.
Your mind is not the arbiter of truth. We'll meet him in the air, &, if you are dead when it happens, you'll really be dead, and you'll really be raised up.
"how is it seen
where is it seen
when is it seen"
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
what does it mean when it says dead in the scriptures
How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Answers to these questions and more lie within the spirit of God which is Christ within. He has not changed and will open the eyes of understanding to those who seek and really leave themselves and their fears behind. Dieing in a real sense and to become alive in Christ.
i actually think that "Mike" (via his master books) is onto something regarding the possibility that during an earthquake, graves would be opened. and by the time it made it into gospels, the story may have been embellished a bit (as with other parts of the gospels)
but also, another possibility, is that the "appearing of the saints unto many" was an appearing in people's dreams, or as visions during meditation.
(as opposed to the zombie invasion idea, or a bunch of apparitions floating around the city)
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever. If it is written, it is revealed so that we can know what God is trying to say to us. Paul writes, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." If it is revealed, it is no longer waiting in the hand of the Lord. If it is revealed, it is a shame not to know it.
quote:
if you say dead means dead then what do you mean
what does it mean when it says dead in the scriptures
Death = no life. We're not talking a "seven-eyed blood-covered lamb who reads books" here that it should be taken figuratively. C'mon, we're talking "death," and "air." I'm not saying that everything in the bible is literal - why do you - sirguessalot, make it out like I am? Rank tactic.
Sounds like you just want to be free to think whatever you want as the "spirit" moves you. Sorry, words mean things, & you can't just go around calling it literal when you want & figurative when you don't like it & think you're not going to lose a grip on true meaning. Language is more orderly than that, & the words of the Lord are purified.
I'm sorry; I don't want to be rude, but it seems like you're being silly to me.
Hopefully, that's just my perception, & it's wrong.
I'd better call it a night, & go to sleep - REAL sleep.
I'm aware of the benefits of reckoning the old man nature dead, but I don't think the origin of this thread heads in that direction.
Let's look at Psalm 16. I often like to see the simple explanation in the Word of God. I choose this Psalm because both Peter and Paul choose it to teach in Acts. But first, the Psalm.
Psalms 16
1 - Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
2 - O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
3 - But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
4 - Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
5 - The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
6 - The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
7 - I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 - I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 - Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 - Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
It's the last three verses that are the focus here. Please note that in verse 10 the word "hell" should be translated "grave." Most modern versions correct this.
Peter handled this Psalm in his Pentecost speech in Acts 2:22-35:
22 - Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 - Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 - For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 - Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 - Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 - Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 - Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 - This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 - Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
In verse 35 Peter quotes from another Psalm, and it's one where the last enemy and it's destruction is mentioned.
David's relief comes in God overcoming death via resurrection. He's still waiting for it.
Paul quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 13:29-38:
29 - And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 - But God raised him from the dead:
31 - And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 - And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 - God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 - And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 - Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 - But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 - Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Many have seen that death is a bad thing in the OT because it involves unconsciousness, but have erroneously taught that after Jesus' death and resurrection those who were in the bondage of the grave were set free. Here are two post-Pentecost teachings on Psalm 16 that declare David still dead and in his grave.
why do you - sirguessalot, make it out like I am? Rank tactic.
Sounds like you just want to be free to think whatever you want as the "spirit" moves you. Sorry, words mean things, & you can't just go around calling it literal when you want & figurative when you don't like it & think you're not going to lose a grip on true meaning. Language is more orderly than that, & the words of the Lord are purified.
sorry Thom
just an impression i got regarding what you were saying about literal air and death and whatnot
99.9% of the lessons of scripture are figurative, no?
(not 50%, or 75%, but more like 99.9%, it seems)
Jesus himself said he used them for a reason.
Paul speaks in a mystery.
Peter mentioned how easy it was to misunderstand him (and people twist it to their own demise)
OT prophets spoke in riddles and enigmas a plenty (Song of SOlomon, anyone?)
and yes, i actually do want to be free to think whatever i want as the spirit moves me.
dont you?
freedom is the component of discipleship
and yes, words do mean things. and are quite alive.
sometimes, they mean more than one thing
which presents a new problem
there purity is in their living nature
not their hardened orderly literal nature
the figures are very meaningful.
something bullinger (and VP) got right, imo, is how figures are often truer than the literal truth
when the figures baffle us, and in our "helplessness," we often call them literal
which is when we get into more trouble, i think.
but the figures are meant to come alive, as we compare spiritual things with spiritual words.
there is also an element of "seeing the words" over simply reading them in a scientific way
the words of the word originated from purer forms and archetypes, that have shapes that transcend written or spoken language
language of light can "flash in our head like lightning"
sometimes, radically altering the landscape of our mind against our will
like earthquakes, or our inner scroll/map of the heavens being rolled up and removed
quote:
I'm sorry; I don't want to be rude, but it seems like you're being silly to me.
Oops, the action is going too fast - this post was meant to come after my post above - But I still think you may need to, umm, grow in your appreciation of language in particular with regard to your understanding of when it is figurative and when it is literal. Language really is, or ought to be, self-interpreting. Mature language is more deliberate and precise in the manner in which it twists words into unusual figures than I suspect you give it credit for. And, again, God's words are purified. God's revelation of His Word to your spirit won't nullify that quality of His written Word; indeed, His revelation and His Word dance together to the delight of God and His order in all the Universe.
Figures are truer to truth than the literal, but all the words are alive. Literal words are still spiritual if God breathes them and the truth of them still means more than the words convey - but we digress.
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waysider
Film at 11:00! The suspense is killing me./s
Oakspear
if you don't believe that the bible is godbreathed, then there's no problem
Mike
Here is a rough OCR version of the article: Early Patristic Evidence for the Forgery of Matthew 27:52b and 53 Daniel L. McConaughy Seventh Way Corps Way Magazine May
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CM
well said todd,
1st century christians would be a hoot to have around huh...
perhaps these type of christians still are...
----
death and dieing is quite the subject in the new testament
did we not die with him?
were we raised when he was raised?
is it all a lie?
and why does this being raised have to be a group thing
the enemy that is destroyed
all at once for everyone?
or as individually and collectively
as our eyes are opened to what is real
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Tom
Any validity in reading the NT in the light of death before dying notwithstanding, the light which the lamp unto our feet shines forth concerning death in the section on the last enemy to be destroyed seems to clearly be an exposition concerning simple old physical death.
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sirguessalot
a few more thoughts...
its not that death itself is destroyed (death itself being a destruction),
but that it is the last enemy to be destroyed.
when we no longer consider death the enemy,
but as Paul described it...necessary for the seed to come alive...
in other words...of all the enmities that live and thrive in the human heart and soul
our perceptions and experiences regarding death itself is a final crossroads of sorts
(like the fourth horsemen) and some sort of intersection between "heaven and earth"
when death and hell are swallowed up in victory
("hell" being the anguish and pain associated with the process of dying)
"death" becomes the path to rebirth,
but perhaps better viewed as a "death of perception,"
which obviously comes with physical death
which is why we might want to learn to "die before we die"
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Tom
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump?
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CM
what's the question Thomas...
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Tom
The question was "and why does this being raised have to be a group thing?"
The answer seems simple - it happens "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." No? One moment, THE twinking - there is only one last trump.
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CM
yup-for each of us...
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CM
and fasten your seat belt cuz
that moment
that twinkling of an eye
can be quite a ride
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Tom
And do you hear trumpets when you die before you die too? And are they all the last trumpet also? And are those trumpets just some more of those perceptions regarding the last ememy, death - experiential trumpets, but not really trumpets, trumpeting in the last enemy, death, which is really not an enemy, but is only perceived to be an enemy and is really not death either?
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CM
the scriptures are figurative Thomas
the trumpets do involve hearing though
perception is seeing
how is it seen
where is it seen
when is it seen
meeting the Lord in the air
how close is the air?
the heavens opening up
how close do you want it
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CM
don't give up
you can close your eyes and still see
hearing now what is said
it is as close as close can get
that which lies within our minds
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Tom
I don't see that you have any reason not to believe that these scriptures mean what they say literally.
Death is real.
"meeting the Lord in the air
how close is the air?"
Is there a reason for this question? In the air is about as simple as it gets. Because it doesn't say exactly 100' in the air doesn't make it figurative nor subject to whatever your mind wants to make it.
Your mind is not the arbiter of truth. We'll meet him in the air, &, if you are dead when it happens, you'll really be dead, and you'll really be raised up.
"how is it seen
where is it seen
when is it seen"
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
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CM
reasoning literally what the truth is
and how it unfolds is in the hand of the Lord
and waiting to be manifested within
if you say dead means dead then what do you mean
what does it mean when it says dead in the scriptures
How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Answers to these questions and more lie within the spirit of God which is Christ within. He has not changed and will open the eyes of understanding to those who seek and really leave themselves and their fears behind. Dieing in a real sense and to become alive in Christ.
"We shall be changed" it says....
Few are ready...but all will change
either now or later. Mortality
swallowed up by immortality.
Now can happen, but only what you can
handle, and it will be a lot cuz it
comes fast, in the twinkling of an eye.
you can always email me if you want
in the air yes it is in the air...
i'm not making it anything but what it is
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sirguessalot
yeah, i think n olonger mistaking the figures for the true is a big part of the OT to NT lesson
i mean, do we think there will be a ten headed dragon rise from the sea?
or that there is will be this lady riding on its back?
or that there will be all these bird cages?
or seven golden trumpets are gonna be blown by angels?
or that there is this literal seven-eyed blood-covered lamb who reads books?
etc...
or that Paul was speaking of simple horticulture when he spoke of the "death" of a seed?
and of the celestial and terrestrial bodies?
is the death of the terrestrial body the only death Paul describes?
yeah, the one-time group thing is has pretty much become the standard expectation of the expressions of a spiritual event horizon
and the value and validity of inward experiences have become shipwreck, in a sort of modern western christian "bodyism," if you will
i recall the confusing statements of the M.I.W. (men in white) when Jesus ascended:
here, they tell them NOT to look up in the sky
because Jesus is coming back the same way he entered heaven
which, obviously, is NOT up in the sky
which seems like a contradiction
and so a good question might be...
then how and when did he "enter heaven?"
because that is how he is coming back, right?
one basic scriptural notion that comes to mind is this...
"the daystar rising in our hearts"
"today is the day"
is that then the path to heaven?
our hearts? or some inward direction? the tiniest narrowest path?
and somehow involved with our very breath (meet him in "air")?
(not the literal sky)
ive heard it said and written:
that modern christian thought has more or less reversed things
just as the apostles did for a bit
where the "new birth" is considered a spiritual thing
and the "return/arrival of Christ" is a physical thing
...when perhaps it is more likely exactly the other way around
(or inside out)
(or maybe not two different events at all)
on somewhat of a side note:
who are the apostles speaking to John of Patmos at the very end of the book of Rev?
and who are the 24 elders, described as being quite alive and well in the throneroom of God beforethe lamb opened the seals?
is death still their enemy?
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sirguessalot
another thing...
if death is considered an enemy
and we are supposed to love our enemies...?!?
leaves a different kind of scriptural contradiction, i would think
like...is Paul's "dying daily" only a literal physical death too?
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sirguessalot
so as not to so clumsily derail this thread...
i actually think that "Mike" (via his master books) is onto something regarding the possibility that during an earthquake, graves would be opened. and by the time it made it into gospels, the story may have been embellished a bit (as with other parts of the gospels)
but also, another possibility, is that the "appearing of the saints unto many" was an appearing in people's dreams, or as visions during meditation.
(as opposed to the zombie invasion idea, or a bunch of apparitions floating around the city)
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CM
lol todd...
yeah i was thinkin' of mike too
his name is still there, he's probably still listening...
hi mike!
i don't buy the zombie thing either but more of a real seeing from those who can see...
Love Always
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Tom
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever. If it is written, it is revealed so that we can know what God is trying to say to us. Paul writes, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." If it is revealed, it is no longer waiting in the hand of the Lord. If it is revealed, it is a shame not to know it.
Death = no life. We're not talking a "seven-eyed blood-covered lamb who reads books" here that it should be taken figuratively. C'mon, we're talking "death," and "air." I'm not saying that everything in the bible is literal - why do you - sirguessalot, make it out like I am? Rank tactic.
Sounds like you just want to be free to think whatever you want as the "spirit" moves you. Sorry, words mean things, & you can't just go around calling it literal when you want & figurative when you don't like it & think you're not going to lose a grip on true meaning. Language is more orderly than that, & the words of the Lord are purified.
I'm sorry; I don't want to be rude, but it seems like you're being silly to me.
Hopefully, that's just my perception, & it's wrong.
I'd better call it a night, & go to sleep - REAL sleep.
God bless & good will.
Tom
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CM
well before we all call it a night i'll take this one
clearly it's those things that are revealed
can anyone pick up the bible and know what it is revealing or does God have to have something to do with it.
the bible is encrypted so to speak
the interpretation belongs to Him
and as He reveals it, even so it belongs to us
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Tom
Agreed - absolutely.
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Mike
I'm aware of the benefits of reckoning the old man nature dead, but I don't think the origin of this thread heads in that direction.
Let's look at Psalm 16. I often like to see the simple explanation in the Word of God. I choose this Psalm because both Peter and Paul choose it to teach in Acts. But first, the Psalm.
Psalms 16
1 - Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
2 - O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
3 - But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
4 - Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
5 - The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
6 - The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
7 - I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 - I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 - Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 - Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
It's the last three verses that are the focus here. Please note that in verse 10 the word "hell" should be translated "grave." Most modern versions correct this.
Peter handled this Psalm in his Pentecost speech in Acts 2:22-35:
22 - Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 - Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 - For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 - Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 - Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 - Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 - Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 - This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 - Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
In verse 35 Peter quotes from another Psalm, and it's one where the last enemy and it's destruction is mentioned.
David's relief comes in God overcoming death via resurrection. He's still waiting for it.
Paul quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 13:29-38:
29 - And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 - But God raised him from the dead:
31 - And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 - And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 - God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 - And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 - Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 - But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 - Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Many have seen that death is a bad thing in the OT because it involves unconsciousness, but have erroneously taught that after Jesus' death and resurrection those who were in the bondage of the grave were set free. Here are two post-Pentecost teachings on Psalm 16 that declare David still dead and in his grave.
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sirguessalot
sorry Thom
just an impression i got regarding what you were saying about literal air and death and whatnot
99.9% of the lessons of scripture are figurative, no?
(not 50%, or 75%, but more like 99.9%, it seems)
Jesus himself said he used them for a reason.
Paul speaks in a mystery.
Peter mentioned how easy it was to misunderstand him (and people twist it to their own demise)
OT prophets spoke in riddles and enigmas a plenty (Song of SOlomon, anyone?)
and yes, i actually do want to be free to think whatever i want as the spirit moves me.
dont you?
freedom is the component of discipleship
and yes, words do mean things. and are quite alive.
sometimes, they mean more than one thing
which presents a new problem
there purity is in their living nature
not their hardened orderly literal nature
the figures are very meaningful.
something bullinger (and VP) got right, imo, is how figures are often truer than the literal truth
when the figures baffle us, and in our "helplessness," we often call them literal
which is when we get into more trouble, i think.
but the figures are meant to come alive, as we compare spiritual things with spiritual words.
there is also an element of "seeing the words" over simply reading them in a scientific way
the words of the word originated from purer forms and archetypes, that have shapes that transcend written or spoken language
language of light can "flash in our head like lightning"
sometimes, radically altering the landscape of our mind against our will
like earthquakes, or our inner scroll/map of the heavens being rolled up and removed
i appreciate that. and i appreciate you, Thom
and yes, i am being silly. like a child, at times
just like the master himself taught
lol
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Tom
Oops, the action is going too fast - this post was meant to come after my post above - But I still think you may need to, umm, grow in your appreciation of language in particular with regard to your understanding of when it is figurative and when it is literal. Language really is, or ought to be, self-interpreting. Mature language is more deliberate and precise in the manner in which it twists words into unusual figures than I suspect you give it credit for. And, again, God's words are purified. God's revelation of His Word to your spirit won't nullify that quality of His written Word; indeed, His revelation and His Word dance together to the delight of God and His order in all the Universe.
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Tom
Figures are truer to truth than the literal, but all the words are alive. Literal words are still spiritual if God breathes them and the truth of them still means more than the words convey - but we digress.
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