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Matthew 27:52 & 53--The Saints that rose at the resurrection


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one of the common misunderstandings i see going on here,

is regarding the timing and location of the infamous "destruction of the last enemy" sections.

i know it can be a hard shift for many, but according to some,

"to learn to die before you die" is a greater lesson of Christ and the early Christians.

and a large part of the discipline required to do such amazing works, as recorded.

as it allows for more courage to go out on a limb like they did, without fear for "self"

much of modern christianity (and other religions) seems to see mere death of flesh

as the primary meaning of "death" as it is used in scripture

not that such bodily death isn't tragic, and often massively tragic,

or that it does not play a part in this "dying before we die,"

but that the deep spiritual practices of the early disciples

were towards the tasting and touching of this place beyond death

imo, i think it is worth a re-read of the NT in this light

also, sheds more light as to why carnal folks wanted to kill the preachers of this way

disciple: "um...i can show you ways to die before you die"

carnal: "oh yeah? prove it!" thwack!

that being said...

i also think the doctrines of "Are the Dead Alive Now?" are perhaps some of VPs most damaging "contributions" to christian spiritual understanding

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well said todd,

1st century christians would be a hoot to have around huh...

perhaps these type of christians still are...

----

death and dieing is quite the subject in the new testament

did we not die with him?

were we raised when he was raised?

is it all a lie?

and why does this being raised have to be a group thing

the enemy that is destroyed

all at once for everyone?

or as individually and collectively

as our eyes are opened to what is real

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Any validity in reading the NT in the light of death before dying notwithstanding, the light which the lamp unto our feet shines forth concerning death in the section on the last enemy to be destroyed seems to clearly be an exposition concerning simple old physical death.

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a few more thoughts...

its not that death itself is destroyed (death itself being a destruction),

but that it is the last enemy to be destroyed.

when we no longer consider death the enemy,

but as Paul described it...necessary for the seed to come alive...

in other words...of all the enmities that live and thrive in the human heart and soul

our perceptions and experiences regarding death itself is a final crossroads of sorts

(like the fourth horsemen) and some sort of intersection between "heaven and earth"

when death and hell are swallowed up in victory

("hell" being the anguish and pain associated with the process of dying)

"death" becomes the path to rebirth,

but perhaps better viewed as a "death of perception,"

which obviously comes with physical death

which is why we might want to learn to "die before we die"

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quote:
quote:

there is only one last trump

yup-for each of us...

And do you hear trumpets when you die before you die too? And are they all the last trumpet also? And are those trumpets just some more of those perceptions regarding the last ememy, death - experiential trumpets, but not really trumpets, trumpeting in the last enemy, death, which is really not an enemy, but is only perceived to be an enemy and is really not death either?

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the scriptures are figurative Thomas

the trumpets do involve hearing though

perception is seeing

how is it seen

where is it seen

when is it seen

meeting the Lord in the air

how close is the air?

the heavens opening up

how close do you want it

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I don't see that you have any reason not to believe that these scriptures mean what they say literally.

Death is real.

"meeting the Lord in the air

how close is the air?"

Is there a reason for this question? In the air is about as simple as it gets. Because it doesn't say exactly 100' in the air doesn't make it figurative nor subject to whatever your mind wants to make it.

Your mind is not the arbiter of truth. We'll meet him in the air, &, if you are dead when it happens, you'll really be dead, and you'll really be raised up.

"how is it seen

where is it seen

when is it seen"

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

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reasoning literally what the truth is

and how it unfolds is in the hand of the Lord

and waiting to be manifested within

if you say dead means dead then what do you mean

what does it mean when it says dead in the scriptures

How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Answers to these questions and more lie within the spirit of God which is Christ within. He has not changed and will open the eyes of understanding to those who seek and really leave themselves and their fears behind. Dieing in a real sense and to become alive in Christ.

"We shall be changed" it says....

Few are ready...but all will change

either now or later. Mortality

swallowed up by immortality.

Now can happen, but only what you can

handle, and it will be a lot cuz it

comes fast, in the twinkling of an eye.

you can always email me if you want

in the air yes it is in the air...

i'm not making it anything but what it is

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yeah, i think n olonger mistaking the figures for the true is a big part of the OT to NT lesson

i mean, do we think there will be a ten headed dragon rise from the sea?

or that there is will be this lady riding on its back?

or that there will be all these bird cages?

or seven golden trumpets are gonna be blown by angels?

or that there is this literal seven-eyed blood-covered lamb who reads books?

etc...

or that Paul was speaking of simple horticulture when he spoke of the "death" of a seed?

and of the celestial and terrestrial bodies?

is the death of the terrestrial body the only death Paul describes?

yeah, the one-time group thing is has pretty much become the standard expectation of the expressions of a spiritual event horizon

and the value and validity of inward experiences have become shipwreck, in a sort of modern western christian "bodyism," if you will

i recall the confusing statements of the M.I.W. (men in white) when Jesus ascended:

here, they tell them NOT to look up in the sky

because Jesus is coming back the same way he entered heaven

which, obviously, is NOT up in the sky

which seems like a contradiction

and so a good question might be...

then how and when did he "enter heaven?"

because that is how he is coming back, right?

one basic scriptural notion that comes to mind is this...

"the daystar rising in our hearts"

"today is the day"

is that then the path to heaven?

our hearts? or some inward direction? the tiniest narrowest path?

and somehow involved with our very breath (meet him in "air")?

(not the literal sky)

ive heard it said and written:

that modern christian thought has more or less reversed things

just as the apostles did for a bit

where the "new birth" is considered a spiritual thing

and the "return/arrival of Christ" is a physical thing

...when perhaps it is more likely exactly the other way around

(or inside out)

(or maybe not two different events at all)

on somewhat of a side note:

who are the apostles speaking to John of Patmos at the very end of the book of Rev?

and who are the 24 elders, described as being quite alive and well in the throneroom of God beforethe lamb opened the seals?

is death still their enemy?

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so as not to so clumsily derail this thread...

i actually think that "Mike" (via his master books) is onto something regarding the possibility that during an earthquake, graves would be opened. and by the time it made it into gospels, the story may have been embellished a bit (as with other parts of the gospels)

but also, another possibility, is that the "appearing of the saints unto many" was an appearing in people's dreams, or as visions during meditation.

(as opposed to the zombie invasion idea, or a bunch of apparitions floating around the city)

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quote:
Originally posted by CM:

reasoning literally what the truth is

and how it unfolds is in the hand of the Lord

and waiting to be manifested within

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever. If it is written, it is revealed so that we can know what God is trying to say to us. Paul writes, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." If it is revealed, it is no longer waiting in the hand of the Lord. If it is revealed, it is a shame not to know it.

quote:
if you say dead means dead then what do you mean

what does it mean when it says dead in the scriptures

Death = no life. We're not talking a "seven-eyed blood-covered lamb who reads books" here that it should be taken figuratively. C'mon, we're talking "death," and "air." I'm not saying that everything in the bible is literal - why do you - sirguessalot, make it out like I am? Rank tactic.

Sounds like you just want to be free to think whatever you want as the "spirit" moves you. Sorry, words mean things, & you can't just go around calling it literal when you want & figurative when you don't like it & think you're not going to lose a grip on true meaning. Language is more orderly than that, & the words of the Lord are purified.

I'm sorry; I don't want to be rude, but it seems like you're being silly to me.

Hopefully, that's just my perception, & it's wrong.

I'd better call it a night, & go to sleep - REAL sleep.

God bless & good will.

Tom

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quote:
but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever

well before we all call it a night i'll take this one

clearly it's those things that are revealed

can anyone pick up the bible and know what it is revealing or does God have to have something to do with it.

the bible is encrypted so to speak

the interpretation belongs to Him

and as He reveals it, even so it belongs to us

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I'm aware of the benefits of reckoning the old man nature dead, but I don't think the origin of this thread heads in that direction.

Let's look at Psalm 16. I often like to see the simple explanation in the Word of God. I choose this Psalm because both Peter and Paul choose it to teach in Acts. But first, the Psalm.

Psalms 16

1 - Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.

2 - O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;

3 - But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

4 - Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.

5 - The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.

6 - The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.

7 - I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.

8 - I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

9 - Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

11 - Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

It's the last three verses that are the focus here. Please note that in verse 10 the word "hell" should be translated "grave." Most modern versions correct this.

Peter handled this Psalm in his Pentecost speech in Acts 2:22-35:

22 - Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 - Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 - For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 - Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 - Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 - Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 - Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 - This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 - Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

In verse 35 Peter quotes from another Psalm, and it's one where the last enemy and it's destruction is mentioned.

David's relief comes in God overcoming death via resurrection. He's still waiting for it.

Paul quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 13:29-38:

29 - And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30 - But God raised him from the dead:

31 - And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 - And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 - God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34 - And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35 - Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 - But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 - Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Many have seen that death is a bad thing in the OT because it involves unconsciousness, but have erroneously taught that after Jesus' death and resurrection those who were in the bondage of the grave were set free. Here are two post-Pentecost teachings on Psalm 16 that declare David still dead and in his grave.

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quote:
why do you - sirguessalot, make it out like I am? Rank tactic.

Sounds like you just want to be free to think whatever you want as the "spirit" moves you. Sorry, words mean things, & you can't just go around calling it literal when you want & figurative when you don't like it & think you're not going to lose a grip on true meaning. Language is more orderly than that, & the words of the Lord are purified.

sorry Thom

just an impression i got regarding what you were saying about literal air and death and whatnot

99.9% of the lessons of scripture are figurative, no?

(not 50%, or 75%, but more like 99.9%, it seems)

Jesus himself said he used them for a reason.

Paul speaks in a mystery.

Peter mentioned how easy it was to misunderstand him (and people twist it to their own demise)

OT prophets spoke in riddles and enigmas a plenty (Song of SOlomon, anyone?)

and yes, i actually do want to be free to think whatever i want as the spirit moves me.

dont you?

freedom is the component of discipleship

and yes, words do mean things. and are quite alive.

sometimes, they mean more than one thing

which presents a new problem

there purity is in their living nature

not their hardened orderly literal nature

the figures are very meaningful.

something bullinger (and VP) got right, imo, is how figures are often truer than the literal truth

when the figures baffle us, and in our "helplessness," we often call them literal

which is when we get into more trouble, i think.

but the figures are meant to come alive, as we compare spiritual things with spiritual words.

there is also an element of "seeing the words" over simply reading them in a scientific way

the words of the word originated from purer forms and archetypes, that have shapes that transcend written or spoken language

language of light can "flash in our head like lightning"

sometimes, radically altering the landscape of our mind against our will

like earthquakes, or our inner scroll/map of the heavens being rolled up and removed

quote:
I'm sorry; I don't want to be rude, but it seems like you're being silly to me.

i appreciate that. and i appreciate you, Thom

and yes, i am being silly. like a child, at times

just like the master himself taught

lol

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Oops, the action is going too fast - this post was meant to come after my post above - But I still think you may need to, umm, grow in your appreciation of language in particular with regard to your understanding of when it is figurative and when it is literal. Language really is, or ought to be, self-interpreting. Mature language is more deliberate and precise in the manner in which it twists words into unusual figures than I suspect you give it credit for. And, again, God's words are purified. God's revelation of His Word to your spirit won't nullify that quality of His written Word; indeed, His revelation and His Word dance together to the delight of God and His order in all the Universe.

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