You wrote: "why would "the True God" bother him/her self giving you revelation about the color of Nancy's hair?"
I think you may be mixing metaphors, or something like it. The hairdresser thing was just to demonstrate the near-infinite complexity of human affairs, and the lack of 5-senses surety whenever humans are involved.
From all that's gone down in prior years, I suspect you are joking here, and your confusion is feigned. If you're serious then I urge you to re-think it.
***
On a seemingly more serious note you wrote: "So Mike... if it's "only by revelation" why do you need "careful application of a simple method" (or is that simple method you refer to revelation?)..."
The answer is contained in my text. We do our part; God does His part. It's much like SIT, where we move our lips, throat and tongue... WE make the sounds, but God supplies the words.
When I wrote that it's "only by revelation" I did not mean the only actions involved are God's. I meant the only way success in surety can happen is if God steps in and does His part. We can do our part and reach up into God's cookie jar until we're blue in the face and total surety will not emerge if there's no cookie in there.
***
Raf, I may disappoint you. Not only SHOULD this thread's topic focused on irisheyes' intended topic, but I am also very weary of the usual topics we've beat to death for over two years. For the past month or more I've been in PT area slowly getting down pieces of the manifesto I have often been urged here to produce. I'm also doing a lot of e-mail and phone discussions with individuals who are more interested in focusing on the details of my proposed topics than the usual ones I get bogged down in with you and many others here. So far I've done a pretty good job of not bringing up my usual topics on this thread and on the public forums, although I may do so once the forum upgrade takes place if it can be done in a manner that doesn't stir up so much animosity and activity that I said I'm weary of.
Back to your stated dilemma of how to know for sure. Here's a couple of ideas to help you decide. First of all, you mentioned you are looking into the phenomenon of death a lot. If you have preconceived notions of how that all works, or you strongly desire to see it turn out a certain way, you'll probably be able to find satisfying evidence somewhere to support such a desire. I suggest you resist this flow, though, as much as possible.
Here's one way to get a handle on those verses. Ask yourself the question: "And THEN what happened?" Why would such a momentus event as public resurrections be mentioned, and then no follow up?
The best way, 5-senses wise, to look at those verses is to see how they need to fit in with what IS followed up on in the scriptures regarding the same topic. If you are not totally familiar with I Corinthians 15, I suggest you start there. That entire chapter is handled in Volume IV of the collaterals, "God's Magnified Word" in the last chapter "The Final Victory." In there you'll see the timing of things. The LAST enemy that is destroyed is death.
We were taught that the one unclear verse must fit in with the abundance of clear verses or it couldn't be God's Word.
How many more permutations of contortion can we come up with to asses the "sureness" her hairdresser can have of Nancy's hair dying proclivities?
It's also quite interesting to see how, by careful application of a simple method, SOME surety can emerge.
It's only by revelation (written and then direct) from the True God that we can ever know anything for sure, both 5-senses knowing and spiritual knowing.
So Mike... if it's "only by revelation" why do you need "careful application of a simple method" (or is that simple method you refer to revelation?)... for that matter, why would "the True God" bother him/her self giving you revelation about the color of Nancy's hair?
Mike said:
quote:
I think you may be mixing metaphors, or something like it. The hairdresser thing was just to demonstrate the near-infinite complexity of human affairs, and the lack of 5-senses surety whenever humans are involved.
From all that's gone down in prior years, I suspect you are joking here, and your confusion is feigned. If you're serious then I urge you to re-think it.
Mike, it's a legitimate question. I took your examples and statements and want to know the answer to the question. That's all... you brought up the points...
I'm still tired from last night and e-mailing today, plus it's hotter than Hades here in my apartment right now, so I'm not well able to unscramble the situation you brought up beyond this: Nancy's hardresser probably would not find a cookie in Daddy's cookie jar and would be doomed to the uncertainties of sense knowledge and NOT really knowing for sure. I say "probably" because I can't forsee much a great need for her to know. If there WAS such a need, then she might receive revelation, but it's unlikely even in this situation unless she was a grad and had obeyed Dr's final instructions to master written PFAL. (THERE! I said it! Are you happy now Raf? :D--> )
In reading through the posts I discovered a short one of yours that had slipped by me unawares.
You wrote: "Oh, please . . . . How do you know it's revelation?"
God has to teach us. We have to put ourselves in the best position possible to receive that teaching. I am firmly convinced that the written forms of PFAL are that gift from God to help us recognize God's direct voice.
How do we recognize a friend's voice on the phone? From hearing it a lot. How do we know it's not an good vocal impersonator on the phone? From the way such an impersonator would eventually drift from the kind of personality we already know to be in our friend.
If God doesn't give us a method to learn His voice and personality we can never know what is revelation from Him and what is not.
Proverbs 3:5,6 helps me here: "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
It's God's responsibility to teach us His voice. The only viable candidate for God's package to teach us this I can see is PFAL. I place my bet on it and work it. That's all we can do, is place our best bet and then work in that direction.
***
If it is possible for God to get through to us, then it's only logical that He already got through to others. Whatever he taught them should be useful in our search. As far as His teachings to the ancients, your original post here led us to discuss the many problems associated with that approach. As far as any of God's prior moves in modern times, and in English, the only viable candidate that inspires me to place my bet is PFAL.
There is no way we can eliminate the uncertainty when we place this bet. We can't know everything for sure and then act. If we want surety bad enough, we'll act on what we can. And if it turns out to be wrong, then we'll just do it again somewhere else, in spite of the previous loss. I am convinced that we haven't finished doing it the first time with PFAL. We drifted from that.
The essence of a lot of my posting is that we only sampled the written forms of PFAL, got some partial results, and then all hell broke loose. I place my bet on doing what ALL the clergy and top leadership did NOT do and I take Dr's final instructions seriously. Dr's final teaching implies that we had not finished receiving all that is written in PFAL, and that much more awaits us there.
When I came back to PFAL I quickly found that Dr was right and that I had NOT absorbed all that it offers. This encouraged me to press on, and the discovery process continued. I encourage all other grads to try the same.
***
Now, my second wind is gone, and I'm drenched in sweat. Time to seek some cool shelter. Now Raf has a lot more entertainment to look at.
How do we recognize a friend's voice on the phone? From hearing it a lot. How do we know it's not an good vocal impersonator on the phone? From the way such an impersonator would eventually drift from the kind of personality we already know to be in our friend.
But how do you know it's God's voice? What if you assume that it's God's voice the first few times, then every time you hear that voice you'll think it's God's... what if it isn't but you think it is because you made a mistake the first couple of times you heard it? What happens then? What if it's been the Satan all along whispering in your ear? ...but you thought it was God? what happens then? how will you know?
Hey you guys--I'm not familiar with all this back and forth stuff! Actually, that might be good (a fresh point of view). I'm not a mediator for sure, but I must say Mike made a good point; let's get back to the original question--what those verses in Matthew mean. So far I've gotten nothing that can help me. And yes, I do realize Death is the enemy, the last enemy to be destroyed, how does that resolve the Matthew ?
And straight up let me say that I believe God's bigger than the devil and He has the ability to protect His Word for us. -->
I saw the short post of irisheyes that had slipped by me and decided to answer it. When the situations changes the guidance many change too.
I'm simply not into the big marathons where sex and plagiarism are the focus. THAT stuff I'm still avoiding here. THAT stuff had been beat into the ground.
For someone who hasn't seen all the posts that can help in unscrambling those areas I prefer now to do it by e-mail or phone now. Even those preferences can change, though.
I don't really know enough about your original question to answer with any authority. I've long accepted the explanation in Jesus Christ Our Passover as the one that makes the most sense, but I don't lose a lot of sleep over it.
But just so you know, this thread got hijacked the moment it was first answered: with a certain poster, all discussions lead to "come back to PFAL, the re-issued Word of God." That's why I put the popcorn pic up early: I knew where this was headed, despite Mike's protestations that he would stick to your original topic.
You wrote: "...let's get back to the original question--what those verses in Matthew mean. So far I've gotten nothing that can help me."
One way I often deal with difficult questions it to try and imagine what would satisfy me. I have asked questions similar to yours and slowly realized that NOTHING could satisfy me in the sense that every source I could find would have the same problem as mine: how do THEY know for sure. the only way out is to find an AUTHORITATIVE source.
My authoritative source is not the GMIR article, although it does give me more rest in my decision to not pay a lot of attention to the verses in question as presented in the KJV and most of the ancient texts.
The broad picture I received in PFAL is what I rely on. I just consulted JCOP and see that there is more that can be learned there.
***
You wrote: "And yes, I do realize Death is the enemy, the last enemy to be destroyed, how does that resolve the Matthew ? "
Timing. The conquering of death is future. If there was a partial conquering of death for some like those verses (as we have them in KJV) indicate, then AT BEST it had to be temporary, like Lazarus being raised, and a few others. But there's no followup on them. Acts says that David is not raised, but still in his grave. Why didn't HE get up in that earthquake? If those verses are in any way part of the originals, they raise more questions than anything else. They don't fit with many things in your KJV. They don't fit with PFAL.
***
You wrote: "And straight up let me say that I believe God's bigger than the devil and He has the ability to protect His Word for us."
Yes, and he does it HIS way not ours. In the OT we can see several times where His written Word was NOT protected but was lost or damaged greatly. God would then restore His Word for those who wanted it.
It was originally written in the stars, and then lost. God re-issued it in a completely different format to Moses.
It was lost under temple debris in its destruction prior to Jeremiah's time and he later found it. Also, one of the scrolls Jeremiah wrote by revelation was cut up by a king and burned. God re-issued it to Jeremiah with many words added.
It was lost in the first century as all forsook God's man, Paul. God re-issued it again to Dr in PFAL, again in a different format and with many words added.
God's physical written Word has been given to us grads, and we can sell it on e-Bay or burn it. I choose to master it like we were instructed to in Dr's last teaching, in defiance of all the top leadership's reaction to those instructions.
The degree of sureness you can find from someone else is limited to the degree they are sure and their sources, and so on ad infinitum, as long as you stay in the senses realm. Who else out there even claims to have THE only sure source? I have found 90 places where Dr makes such a claim. I place my bet with PFAL.
Raf, my husband threw out most of our Way materials. I don't have JCOP. Would be curious if it clears my question up?
Mike, the reason I said how do you know it's God is because of your previous post on how do we know anything, blah, blah, blah. I read some other commentaries that believe they may have been raised like Lazarus, temporarily.
My battery's dying and my kid's using the charger. Later ----
I see your name here and think of that great tune, "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling". I bet you're close to my age to have picked that name and I'm 53 next month. So many of us ex-TWI folks are in our 50's now, huh?
I see where you're coming from though from your last post.. "And straight up let me say that I believe God's bigger than the devil and He has the ability to protect His Word for us."
That tells me what you will consider to be the truth and THAT makes it tough for you, I think. Because anyway you look at it, dead people came out of where they were dead (and buried) and walked around showing folks who KNEW they were dead that they were now alive. You can't get around it.. that's what it says. Its in all the texts. Evidently only some of the saints got to be brought back to life. So what were the criteria for who got raised and who didn't? And how were there saints before the day of Pentacost anyhow? No one was born again until then, right? So these raised from the dead people couldn't have been born again, right?
You see, Irisheyes, it's screwy and pretty bizarre. But you believe God protects his Word. Dr. Wierwille had no problems throwing out lots of verses and parts of verses from the King James Bible because they were errors made while transcribers copied from older texts. Or because transcibers added or changed a word to make it more understandable. But Dr. Wierwille also said lots of places in the King James Bible were deliberate forgeries, remember? So how well protected is God's Word??
Well, evidently, to get to the REAL God breathed Word, you not only need the PFAL class which we all took, but you need people who can read Greek to help with these difficult verses. Sometimes even that isn't enough because to get to the real truth.. you have to see what Lamsa had to say in the Aramaic version of the Bible. In short, Irisheyes.. you have a problem because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of protection that God gave His Word, does there? Every version is different and all the experts disagree.
What I sense you're really looking for here is an opinion on these Matthew verses by somebody who also sees other verses AS YOU DO!! That way, that person's opinion carries more weight than the opinion of even a noted Bible scholar who though world reknown and respected and has spent years studying the ancient languages still believes some non-Way doctrine thereby disqualifying his opinion on any matter in your mind. Am I correct or am I off base here?
Good luck and happy hunting. We're all tickled to see you posting here and maybe someday you'll get the answer to the real question you are really asking... what is the truth?
in considering your question, many things could be taken into consideration.
jcop is one of them but comes from the standpoint that the dead are dead and not alive.
are the dead alive now?
this flows with the question at hand
as well as other questions
when did Jesus actually rise from the dead?
what was accomplished by what Jesus did?
do all people benefit from what he did or just some?
from a non-twi/vpw viewpoint, many things become questions
what did this man Jesus see that he would allow this to be accomplished in him-it has to be bigger then what can be apprehended in a few simple answers
yes, Mike, God must be the one to reveal it, but it doesn't happen overnight
there are many writings that God can reveal his meaning to the person seeking. there is no middle man that is needed except the Lord Jesus Christ-not vpw or anyone else. learn what was written and learn what is being written. God opens the eyes and ears not people.
why was Jesus' body removed by God and when did He do it
there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body-was one raised before the other?
which is first-which is last
when did Jesus actually get raised from the dead? it says in many places in the new testament that we are raised from the dead now. how much difference is there between these. did Jesus not see at the mount of transfiguration? was he already actually raised from the dead? and when did his mortality begin to transform into immortality-when does ours?
the full completion and fulfillment of the promise of life eternal is real and can be seen. but one must be looking and as i said it takes time...sometimes in the twinkling of an eye the truth floods and rushes through your soul/spirit so fast it's hard to keep up and almost unbelievable, but the word of life will be recognized.
our carnal look into what was and is written holds us back from really seeing what is waiting to be revealed in due time.
stay with love it is God himself
as a parent how long would you wait to see your children alive after going through death? what dies what is made alive?
3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth-another question...
We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Has this happened already? Are we experiencing it now? Seems quite encouraging.
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Here is a rough OCR version of the article: Early Patristic Evidence for the Forgery of Matthew 27:52b and 53 Daniel L. McConaughy Seventh Way Corps Way Magazine May
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Mike
Tom Strange,
You wrote: "why would "the True God" bother him/her self giving you revelation about the color of Nancy's hair?"
I think you may be mixing metaphors, or something like it. The hairdresser thing was just to demonstrate the near-infinite complexity of human affairs, and the lack of 5-senses surety whenever humans are involved.
From all that's gone down in prior years, I suspect you are joking here, and your confusion is feigned. If you're serious then I urge you to re-think it.
***
On a seemingly more serious note you wrote: "So Mike... if it's "only by revelation" why do you need "careful application of a simple method" (or is that simple method you refer to revelation?)..."
The answer is contained in my text. We do our part; God does His part. It's much like SIT, where we move our lips, throat and tongue... WE make the sounds, but God supplies the words.
When I wrote that it's "only by revelation" I did not mean the only actions involved are God's. I meant the only way success in surety can happen is if God steps in and does His part. We can do our part and reach up into God's cookie jar until we're blue in the face and total surety will not emerge if there's no cookie in there.
***
Raf, I may disappoint you. Not only SHOULD this thread's topic focused on irisheyes' intended topic, but I am also very weary of the usual topics we've beat to death for over two years. For the past month or more I've been in PT area slowly getting down pieces of the manifesto I have often been urged here to produce. I'm also doing a lot of e-mail and phone discussions with individuals who are more interested in focusing on the details of my proposed topics than the usual ones I get bogged down in with you and many others here. So far I've done a pretty good job of not bringing up my usual topics on this thread and on the public forums, although I may do so once the forum upgrade takes place if it can be done in a manner that doesn't stir up so much animosity and activity that I said I'm weary of.
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Mike
Hello irisheyes,
Back to your stated dilemma of how to know for sure. Here's a couple of ideas to help you decide. First of all, you mentioned you are looking into the phenomenon of death a lot. If you have preconceived notions of how that all works, or you strongly desire to see it turn out a certain way, you'll probably be able to find satisfying evidence somewhere to support such a desire. I suggest you resist this flow, though, as much as possible.
Here's one way to get a handle on those verses. Ask yourself the question: "And THEN what happened?" Why would such a momentus event as public resurrections be mentioned, and then no follow up?
The best way, 5-senses wise, to look at those verses is to see how they need to fit in with what IS followed up on in the scriptures regarding the same topic. If you are not totally familiar with I Corinthians 15, I suggest you start there. That entire chapter is handled in Volume IV of the collaterals, "God's Magnified Word" in the last chapter "The Final Victory." In there you'll see the timing of things. The LAST enemy that is destroyed is death.
We were taught that the one unclear verse must fit in with the abundance of clear verses or it couldn't be God's Word.
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Raf
Mike,
Uh huh. Yeah. Okay. Right. Okay. Sure...
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Tom Strange
I posted:
Mike said:
Mike, it's a legitimate question. I took your examples and statements and want to know the answer to the question. That's all... you brought up the points...
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Mike
Tom,
Ok. It was very late last night when I composed that. I may have written it in a way that was mis-leading, so I withdraw my suspicion. Sorry.
I'll look at it again and see if I can clarify it.
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Mike
Tom,
I'm still tired from last night and e-mailing today, plus it's hotter than Hades here in my apartment right now, so I'm not well able to unscramble the situation you brought up beyond this: Nancy's hardresser probably would not find a cookie in Daddy's cookie jar and would be doomed to the uncertainties of sense knowledge and NOT really knowing for sure. I say "probably" because I can't forsee much a great need for her to know. If there WAS such a need, then she might receive revelation, but it's unlikely even in this situation unless she was a grad and had obeyed Dr's final instructions to master written PFAL. (THERE! I said it! Are you happy now Raf?
:D--> )
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Mike
irisheyes,
In reading through the posts I discovered a short one of yours that had slipped by me unawares.
You wrote: "Oh, please . . . . How do you know it's revelation?"
God has to teach us. We have to put ourselves in the best position possible to receive that teaching. I am firmly convinced that the written forms of PFAL are that gift from God to help us recognize God's direct voice.
How do we recognize a friend's voice on the phone? From hearing it a lot. How do we know it's not an good vocal impersonator on the phone? From the way such an impersonator would eventually drift from the kind of personality we already know to be in our friend.
If God doesn't give us a method to learn His voice and personality we can never know what is revelation from Him and what is not.
Proverbs 3:5,6 helps me here: "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
It's God's responsibility to teach us His voice. The only viable candidate for God's package to teach us this I can see is PFAL. I place my bet on it and work it. That's all we can do, is place our best bet and then work in that direction.
***
If it is possible for God to get through to us, then it's only logical that He already got through to others. Whatever he taught them should be useful in our search. As far as His teachings to the ancients, your original post here led us to discuss the many problems associated with that approach. As far as any of God's prior moves in modern times, and in English, the only viable candidate that inspires me to place my bet is PFAL.
There is no way we can eliminate the uncertainty when we place this bet. We can't know everything for sure and then act. If we want surety bad enough, we'll act on what we can. And if it turns out to be wrong, then we'll just do it again somewhere else, in spite of the previous loss. I am convinced that we haven't finished doing it the first time with PFAL. We drifted from that.
The essence of a lot of my posting is that we only sampled the written forms of PFAL, got some partial results, and then all hell broke loose. I place my bet on doing what ALL the clergy and top leadership did NOT do and I take Dr's final instructions seriously. Dr's final teaching implies that we had not finished receiving all that is written in PFAL, and that much more awaits us there.
When I came back to PFAL I quickly found that Dr was right and that I had NOT absorbed all that it offers. This encouraged me to press on, and the discovery process continued. I encourage all other grads to try the same.
***
Now, my second wind is gone, and I'm drenched in sweat. Time to seek some cool shelter. Now Raf has a lot more entertainment to look at.
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Tom Strange
Mike said:
But how do you know it's God's voice? What if you assume that it's God's voice the first few times, then every time you hear that voice you'll think it's God's... what if it isn't but you think it is because you made a mistake the first couple of times you heard it? What happens then? What if it's been the Satan all along whispering in your ear? ...but you thought it was God? what happens then? how will you know?Link to comment
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Raf
But Mike! You, you, you said you weren't going to go there... you mean... you... lied?
Oh, that can't be it. Must be that you can't help yourself.
Well, irisheyes, there you have it. Mike believes PFAL and only PFAL (and the other published works of VPW) can be trusted as the God-breathed word.
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Mike
Tom,
We can't know all that you are asking. God must step in or we're doomed.
My bet is to believe that God already did step in and gave us PFAL. My course of action is to open those books a lot.
What's yours?
(How am I ever goig to get out of here? Maybe by turning off my computer!)
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irisheyes
Hey you guys--I'm not familiar with all this back and forth stuff! Actually, that might be good (a fresh point of view). I'm not a mediator for sure, but I must say Mike made a good point; let's get back to the original question--what those verses in Matthew mean. So far I've gotten nothing that can help me. And yes, I do realize Death is the enemy, the last enemy to be destroyed, how does that resolve the Matthew ?
And straight up let me say that I believe God's bigger than the devil and He has the ability to protect His Word for us.
-->
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Mike
Raf,
I saw the short post of irisheyes that had slipped by me and decided to answer it. When the situations changes the guidance many change too.
I'm simply not into the big marathons where sex and plagiarism are the focus. THAT stuff I'm still avoiding here. THAT stuff had been beat into the ground.
For someone who hasn't seen all the posts that can help in unscrambling those areas I prefer now to do it by e-mail or phone now. Even those preferences can change, though.
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Mike
Hi irisheyes,
It's looking like I'll never get out of here. Give me a few minutes to cool off in the shower and I'll try to respond.
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Raf
And yet, somehow I knew you'd get into the discussion and you didn't.
Not surprised irisheyes' post slipped by you. Lots of things seem to.
Anyway, I'm just watchin'. Have fun.
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Tom Strange
Irisheyes said:
Mike, you didn't answer my question... what if it was the satan's voice instead of God's and you thought it was God's???
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Raf
Irisheyes,
I don't really know enough about your original question to answer with any authority. I've long accepted the explanation in Jesus Christ Our Passover as the one that makes the most sense, but I don't lose a lot of sleep over it.
But just so you know, this thread got hijacked the moment it was first answered: with a certain poster, all discussions lead to "come back to PFAL, the re-issued Word of God." That's why I put the popcorn pic up early: I knew where this was headed, despite Mike's protestations that he would stick to your original topic.
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Mike
irisheyes,
You wrote: "...let's get back to the original question--what those verses in Matthew mean. So far I've gotten nothing that can help me."
One way I often deal with difficult questions it to try and imagine what would satisfy me. I have asked questions similar to yours and slowly realized that NOTHING could satisfy me in the sense that every source I could find would have the same problem as mine: how do THEY know for sure. the only way out is to find an AUTHORITATIVE source.
My authoritative source is not the GMIR article, although it does give me more rest in my decision to not pay a lot of attention to the verses in question as presented in the KJV and most of the ancient texts.
The broad picture I received in PFAL is what I rely on. I just consulted JCOP and see that there is more that can be learned there.
***
You wrote: "And yes, I do realize Death is the enemy, the last enemy to be destroyed, how does that resolve the Matthew ? "
Timing. The conquering of death is future. If there was a partial conquering of death for some like those verses (as we have them in KJV) indicate, then AT BEST it had to be temporary, like Lazarus being raised, and a few others. But there's no followup on them. Acts says that David is not raised, but still in his grave. Why didn't HE get up in that earthquake? If those verses are in any way part of the originals, they raise more questions than anything else. They don't fit with many things in your KJV. They don't fit with PFAL.
***
You wrote: "And straight up let me say that I believe God's bigger than the devil and He has the ability to protect His Word for us."
Yes, and he does it HIS way not ours. In the OT we can see several times where His written Word was NOT protected but was lost or damaged greatly. God would then restore His Word for those who wanted it.
It was originally written in the stars, and then lost. God re-issued it in a completely different format to Moses.
It was lost under temple debris in its destruction prior to Jeremiah's time and he later found it. Also, one of the scrolls Jeremiah wrote by revelation was cut up by a king and burned. God re-issued it to Jeremiah with many words added.
It was lost in the first century as all forsook God's man, Paul. God re-issued it again to Dr in PFAL, again in a different format and with many words added.
God's physical written Word has been given to us grads, and we can sell it on e-Bay or burn it. I choose to master it like we were instructed to in Dr's last teaching, in defiance of all the top leadership's reaction to those instructions.
The degree of sureness you can find from someone else is limited to the degree they are sure and their sources, and so on ad infinitum, as long as you stay in the senses realm. Who else out there even claims to have THE only sure source? I have found 90 places where Dr makes such a claim. I place my bet with PFAL.
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Mike
Raf,
You're right on in your approach to the verses.
You're also right that I have a set agenda.
Where you may be disappointed is in how intense the fray will get here.
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irisheyes
Raf, my husband threw out most of our Way materials. I don't have JCOP. Would be curious if it clears my question up?
Mike, the reason I said how do you know it's God is because of your previous post on how do we know anything, blah, blah, blah. I read some other commentaries that believe they may have been raised like Lazarus, temporarily.
My battery's dying and my kid's using the charger. Later ----
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Sudo
Irisheyes,
I see your name here and think of that great tune, "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling". I bet you're close to my age to have picked that name and I'm 53 next month. So many of us ex-TWI folks are in our 50's now, huh?
I see where you're coming from though from your last post.. "And straight up let me say that I believe God's bigger than the devil and He has the ability to protect His Word for us."
That tells me what you will consider to be the truth and THAT makes it tough for you, I think. Because anyway you look at it, dead people came out of where they were dead (and buried) and walked around showing folks who KNEW they were dead that they were now alive. You can't get around it.. that's what it says. Its in all the texts. Evidently only some of the saints got to be brought back to life. So what were the criteria for who got raised and who didn't? And how were there saints before the day of Pentacost anyhow? No one was born again until then, right? So these raised from the dead people couldn't have been born again, right?
You see, Irisheyes, it's screwy and pretty bizarre. But you believe God protects his Word. Dr. Wierwille had no problems throwing out lots of verses and parts of verses from the King James Bible because they were errors made while transcribers copied from older texts. Or because transcibers added or changed a word to make it more understandable. But Dr. Wierwille also said lots of places in the King James Bible were deliberate forgeries, remember? So how well protected is God's Word??
Well, evidently, to get to the REAL God breathed Word, you not only need the PFAL class which we all took, but you need people who can read Greek to help with these difficult verses. Sometimes even that isn't enough because to get to the real truth.. you have to see what Lamsa had to say in the Aramaic version of the Bible. In short, Irisheyes.. you have a problem because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of protection that God gave His Word, does there? Every version is different and all the experts disagree.
What I sense you're really looking for here is an opinion on these Matthew verses by somebody who also sees other verses AS YOU DO!! That way, that person's opinion carries more weight than the opinion of even a noted Bible scholar who though world reknown and respected and has spent years studying the ancient languages still believes some non-Way doctrine thereby disqualifying his opinion on any matter in your mind. Am I correct or am I off base here?
Good luck and happy hunting. We're all tickled to see you posting here and maybe someday you'll get the answer to the real question you are really asking... what is the truth?
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Raf
Mike,
You've always done an awful job of reading my mind. Please don't start now.
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GarthP2000
Please!! ... Make him stop!
Yet ... Another ... Dodge.
(But no Plymouth.
:D-->)
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CM
in considering your question, many things could be taken into consideration.
jcop is one of them but comes from the standpoint that the dead are dead and not alive.
are the dead alive now?
this flows with the question at hand
as well as other questions
when did Jesus actually rise from the dead?
what was accomplished by what Jesus did?
do all people benefit from what he did or just some?
from a non-twi/vpw viewpoint, many things become questions
what did this man Jesus see that he would allow this to be accomplished in him-it has to be bigger then what can be apprehended in a few simple answers
yes, Mike, God must be the one to reveal it, but it doesn't happen overnight
there are many writings that God can reveal his meaning to the person seeking. there is no middle man that is needed except the Lord Jesus Christ-not vpw or anyone else. learn what was written and learn what is being written. God opens the eyes and ears not people.
other writings to consider
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/
more questions-
why was Jesus' body removed by God and when did He do it
there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body-was one raised before the other?
which is first-which is last
when did Jesus actually get raised from the dead? it says in many places in the new testament that we are raised from the dead now. how much difference is there between these. did Jesus not see at the mount of transfiguration? was he already actually raised from the dead? and when did his mortality begin to transform into immortality-when does ours?
the full completion and fulfillment of the promise of life eternal is real and can be seen. but one must be looking and as i said it takes time...sometimes in the twinkling of an eye the truth floods and rushes through your soul/spirit so fast it's hard to keep up and almost unbelievable, but the word of life will be recognized.
our carnal look into what was and is written holds us back from really seeing what is waiting to be revealed in due time.
stay with love it is God himself
as a parent how long would you wait to see your children alive after going through death? what dies what is made alive?
3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth-another question...
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CM
We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Has this happened already? Are we experiencing it now? Seems quite encouraging.
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