If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master—how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.
- St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians (ANF01, p62)
Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly begotten of God and of the Virgin, but not after the same manner. For indeed God and man are not the same. He truly assumed a body; for “the Word was made flesh,†and lived upon earth without sin. For says He, “Which of you convicteth me of sin?â€790 He did in reality both eat and drink. He was crucified and died under Pontius Pilate. He really, and not merely in appearance, was crucified, and died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. By those in heaven I mean such as are possessed of incorporeal natures; by those on earth, the Jews and Romans, and such persons as were present at that time when the Lord was crucified; and by those under the earth, the multitude that arose along with the Lord. For says the Scripture, “Many bodies of the saints that slept arose,†their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude; and rent asunder that means of separation which had existed from the beginning of the world, and cast down its partition-wall. He also rose again in three days, the Father raising Him up; and after spending forty days with the apostles, He was received up to the Father, and “sat down at His right hand, expecting till His enemies are placed under His feet.â€
- St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians (ANF01, p70)
XXVIII.
“And the man of God said, Where did it fall? And he showed him the place. And he cut down a tree, and cast it in there, and the iron floated.†This was a sign that souls should be borne aloft through the instrumentality of wood, upon which He suffered who can lead those souls aloft that follow His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact, that when the holy soul of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies. For just as the wood, which is the lighter body, was submerged in the water; but the iron, the heavier one, floated: so, when the Word of God became one with flesh, by a physical and hypostatic union, the heavy and terrestrial [part], having been rendered immortal, was borne up into heaven, by the divine nature, after the resurrection.
- Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenæus (ANF01, p 573)
If, then, He preached only to the Jews, who wanted the knowledge and faith of the Saviour, it is plain that, since God is no respecter of persons, the apostles also, as here, so there preached the Gospel to those of the heathen who were ready for conversion. And it is well said by the Shepherd, “They went down with them therefore into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those who had fallen asleep, descended dead, but ascended alive.†Further the Gospel says, “that many bodies of those that slept arose,â€â€”plainly as having been translated to a better state. There took place, then, a universal movement and translation through the economy of the Saviour.
- Clement of Alexandria, the Stromata (ANF02, p 491)
There's more, but I think the point is made with these three. If Wierwille was right that it was a clumsy forgery, the forgery must have been a VERY early forgery.
So far the particular passages you raised appears to confirm a point I raised earlier on page 2 of this thread:
quote:
The notion behind these passages might have been the belief of Christ's descent into Hades following the crucifixion - whose Spirit, upon breaking open the gates of death, liberated the entombed souls within, and led them out like a train into the heavenly spheres.
This was a highly dramatic and thrilling part of the Salvation epic for early Christians that the Way missed out on - instead only settling on the idea of resurrected spirit of Jesus having only bragged to the imprisoned devils which allegedly caused the deluge. But the Church Fathers cited thus far are hardly limited to that view.
...upon breaking open the gates of death, liberated the entombed souls within, and led them out like a train into the heavenly spheres.
Just more testimony to the paganism still surving in Christianity today. The early church was already impregnated with the errors of pagan philosophy long before this. The passages you cited were written centuries after Jesus Christ had ascended.
Max Muller when writing regarding the first three centuries after Christ stated: "It was a period of religious and metaphysical delirium, when everything became everything - when Maya and Sophia, Mithra and Christ, Viraf and Isaian, Belus, Zarvan, and Kronos were all mixed up in one jumbled system of inane speculation. It was a period of mystic incubation ... a spirit of religious syncretism, to mould together thoughts which differed fundamentally common elements pervading all the multifarious religions of the world in an eager thirst for compromise. It was deemed the proper business philosopy, both in the East and West."
We are still on dry ground here in Baton Rouge, with electricity presently. Heartsick about New Orleans and the people who live/lived there. It's pretty much history. I'm sure we'll see more in the days to come.
Anyway, was Jesus not DEAD for three days? Did he WITNESS TO or was he A WITNESS TO the spirits? Before or after the three days & nights? I guess we could go on and on . . . .
This is too much for me, so, can someone tell me how to copy what someone else types? You know, how to copy a reply into your reply? That should be something that could be answered without an argument, no?
the short version of how to reply with quote is to click on the icon in the lower right hand side of the post. The reply will appear with the quoted post at the top.
If you want to do it manually, you can use the {quote} and {/quote} tags (replace the curly brackets with square brackets in the real text). Just copy and paste as with any other windows program and use the "quote" tags at the beginning and end of the passage you're quoting.
...upon breaking open the gates of death, liberated the entombed souls within, and led them out like a train into the heavenly spheres.
Just more testimony to the paganism still surving in Christianity today.
Or Christianity may owe just as much its survival and livlihood to paganism as paganism may to it.
quote:
The early church was already impregnated with the errors of pagan philosophy long before this. The passages you cited were written centuries after Jesus Christ had ascended.
I cited no passages; the statement you quoted was my own. Had you actually intended the passages cited by Mark in his post,then your assertion that that material cited by him had been written "centuries [plural] after" is inaccurate. I strongly encourage you to become better acquainted with the dating behind the patristic writers and their works before tossing about such baseless generalizations; for example, Ignatius is dated circ. 105-115 AD (within a hundred years of the Lord's Ascension); Clement of Alexandria, - approx.182 - a bit over a century - but hardly "centuries". If you need help in dating the patristic writers and their material,check out http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
quote:
Max Muller when writing regarding the first three centuries after Christ stated: "It was a period of religious and metaphysical delirium, when everything became everything - when Maya and Sophia, Mithra and Christ, Viraf and Isaian, Belus, Zarvan, and Kronos were all mixed up in one jumbled system of inane speculation. It was a period of mystic incubation ... a spirit of religious syncretism, to mould together thoughts which differed fundamentally common elements pervading all the multifarious religions of the world in an eager thirst for compromise. It was deemed the proper business philosopy, both in the East and West."
All roads lead to Babylon.
Including the one leading out of New Knoxville.
Though such lust and debauchery as has occurred there is hardly to be observed amongst pagans themselves.
Anyway, was Jesus not DEAD for three days? Did he WITNESS TO or was he A WITNESS TO the spirits? Before or after the three days & nights? I guess we could go on and on . . . .
Indeed we could, when coming to recognize the variety of ideas which circulated among early Christians (by no means identical and in agreement) - no longer being restricted to the one "way", view and opinion derived from the shoddy scholarship of a mediocre Bible teacher living 20 centuries later.
Far better it is to become acquainted with the writings of the Church fathers, not being separated by so great "gap" of time...
It really simple these people did rise and they are with the Lord now
They are the elders that Rev talks about
They were the dead in Christ who rose first
Look after Christ won over death he went down to hell the graves to get all the dead in Christ and lead them up to put on incorruption,
They waited for the first coming of Christ but we the alive in Christ wait for the second coming of Christ
Just like what is the last trump For the dead in Christ the last trump was the last breath of Christ When Jesus the son of God change to the Christ and the dead in Christ rose first
But there is another last trump the last trump for all that are alive in Christ or our last breath
But there a final last trump the judgement day the coming of Christ to judge the unGodly when the world has no more breath on it or all have die as the world rolls us
I could give you verse by verse but i believe you will see the rest in due time if you just look
I do hope this helps but ask me if you have a question
"how it thrills the heart to realize that this earth of ours, so small that one thousand of them can be lost in the sum, is the center and reason for the universe. . . .
When Love laid the foundations of this mighty universe, He planned, he purposed it all to be the home of His man.
It was the be man's birthplace, man's garden of delight, man's university where he would learn to know his father God. . . .
He filled earth's bosom with deposits of iron, copper, silver and gold ... metals,chemicals and resources that would respond to the touch of His man.
He covered the face of the Earth with mountains, valleys, ravines, plateaus and prairies, lovely rivulets and mighty rivers, and a garment of green intermingled with many colored flowers that thrilled with joy the hert of His man."
If there's a question in there somewhere, I missed it. I think you know where he will come from and the glory to be revealed in us will be revealed when he comes. I've had to deal with death a lot lately. Not just on a personal level, but, hey, I live in Louisiana. You try and tell someone from New Orleans that death is finished. I believe death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.
...when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then [not now] shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
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waysider
Film at 11:00! The suspense is killing me./s
Oakspear
if you don't believe that the bible is godbreathed, then there's no problem
Mike
Here is a rough OCR version of the article: Early Patristic Evidence for the Forgery of Matthew 27:52b and 53 Daniel L. McConaughy Seventh Way Corps Way Magazine May
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CM
what was his mission?
set captives free?
lots more in the scriptures about what he was to do
one hell of a chess game buddy
God wins
and the game continues for real now
to beat your adversary
which is not only other people
and what they do
but ourselves as well
God wins
we just want to see it!
taste it...that love...
ps+odd doing ok...
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markomalley
David,
Here are extracts from the book (available online from http://www.ccel.org)
There's more, but I think the point is made with these three. If Wierwille was right that it was a clumsy forgery, the forgery must have been a VERY early forgery.
(btw, sorry for the improper footnoting)
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TheInvisibleDan
Thank you Mark, for citing some of these.
So far the particular passages you raised appears to confirm a point I raised earlier on page 2 of this thread:
This was a highly dramatic and thrilling part of the Salvation epic for early Christians that the Way missed out on - instead only settling on the idea of resurrected spirit of Jesus having only bragged to the imprisoned devils which allegedly caused the deluge. But the Church Fathers cited thus far are hardly limited to that view.
Danny
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CM
So some hope laid before Jesus that someone would believe was all that he endured the cross for? Even the 12 forsoke him.
What did he see that would be done. Just how well did he know the Father's will?
A sure thing man....would you do it if it wasn't?
I and my Father are one. Where was that happening? Some distant throne?
Didn't Jesus pave the way for all to follow?
Can we have the same oneness?
In the midst of the Garden...
Through the flaming sword...
A clear day lies ahead...
Even so Lord come...
Questions about those verses?
Lots of 'em...
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What The Hay
Just more testimony to the paganism still surving in Christianity today. The early church was already impregnated with the errors of pagan philosophy long before this. The passages you cited were written centuries after Jesus Christ had ascended.
Max Muller when writing regarding the first three centuries after Christ stated: "It was a period of religious and metaphysical delirium, when everything became everything - when Maya and Sophia, Mithra and Christ, Viraf and Isaian, Belus, Zarvan, and Kronos were all mixed up in one jumbled system of inane speculation. It was a period of mystic incubation ... a spirit of religious syncretism, to mould together thoughts which differed fundamentally common elements pervading all the multifarious religions of the world in an eager thirst for compromise. It was deemed the proper business philosopy, both in the East and West."
All roads lead to Babylon.
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CM
Yo WTH
What you are saying is centuries after also
This is why God enlightens the eyes and not the wisdom of men. The truth-so big-a post cannot contain it.
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irisheyes
We are still on dry ground here in Baton Rouge, with electricity presently. Heartsick about New Orleans and the people who live/lived there. It's pretty much history. I'm sure we'll see more in the days to come.
Anyway, was Jesus not DEAD for three days? Did he WITNESS TO or was he A WITNESS TO the spirits? Before or after the three days & nights? I guess we could go on and on . . . .
This is too much for me, so, can someone tell me how to copy what someone else types? You know, how to copy a reply into your reply? That should be something that could be answered without an argument, no?
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markomalley
Irisheyes:
the short version of how to reply with quote is to click on the icon in the lower right hand side of the post. The reply will appear with the quoted post at the top.
If you want to do it manually, you can use the {quote} and {/quote} tags (replace the curly brackets with square brackets in the real text). Just copy and paste as with any other windows program and use the "quote" tags at the beginning and end of the passage you're quoting.
Glad you're ok in Baton Rouge.
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TheInvisibleDan
Or Christianity may owe just as much its survival and livlihood to paganism as paganism may to it.
I cited no passages; the statement you quoted was my own. Had you actually intended the passages cited by Mark in his post,then your assertion that that material cited by him had been written "centuries [plural] after" is inaccurate. I strongly encourage you to become better acquainted with the dating behind the patristic writers and their works before tossing about such baseless generalizations; for example, Ignatius is dated circ. 105-115 AD (within a hundred years of the Lord's Ascension); Clement of Alexandria, - approx.182 - a bit over a century - but hardly "centuries". If you need help in dating the patristic writers and their material,check out http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
Including the one leading out of New Knoxville.
Though such lust and debauchery as has occurred there is hardly to be observed amongst pagans themselves.
Danny
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TheInvisibleDan
Indeed we could, when coming to recognize the variety of ideas which circulated among early Christians (by no means identical and in agreement) - no longer being restricted to the one "way", view and opinion derived from the shoddy scholarship of a mediocre Bible teacher living 20 centuries later.
Far better it is to become acquainted with the writings of the Church fathers, not being separated by so great "gap" of time...
Danny
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CM
as variable as every person that ever was is and will be
such a personal God and Lord he is
cares and loves deeply
one Spirit, but great is the faith
and big is the love-hot-burning
life giving....
just rambling for a second or two
love so big that it has given life to all
no one way of believing
God is big enough to sort it all out
and give life to all
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CM
Interesting to bring up what it means to be dead irisheyes. The old testament people knew that they didn't know what it meant.
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Mike
Let's hear it for IGNORANCE!
Return with us now,
to those thrilling days of yesteryear,
when the people knew that they didn't know!
-->
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CM
Wise people know what they don't know.
This is how to close in on the unknown.
The unknown God/Christ within...
To really know, not just mind games with words.
But a true experience and reality.
Not "see here where it says..."
But a knowing as John writes about.
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Raf
Let's hear it for sycophantic idolatry!
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Tom
Indeed!
...To know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
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Ham
Honestly, I can't see how somebody that claims to understand quantum physics, really thinks they are so stinking smart..
We haven't begun to scratch the surface in this big universe of ours.
Even at the very best, we know so little..
So I agree. Hip Hip Hooray, for ignorance.. sorry, we're all in the same boat..
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CM
i like that (although i pulled it out of your sentence)
it is ours, this is what we want to see and know
from the inside out
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year2027
God first and last
Beloved irisheyes
God bless your heart
It really simple these people did rise and they are with the Lord now
They are the elders that Rev talks about
They were the dead in Christ who rose first
Look after Christ won over death he went down to hell the graves to get all the dead in Christ and lead them up to put on incorruption,
They waited for the first coming of Christ but we the alive in Christ wait for the second coming of Christ
Just like what is the last trump For the dead in Christ the last trump was the last breath of Christ When Jesus the son of God change to the Christ and the dead in Christ rose first
But there is another last trump the last trump for all that are alive in Christ or our last breath
But there a final last trump the judgement day the coming of Christ to judge the unGodly when the world has no more breath on it or all have die as the world rolls us
I could give you verse by verse but i believe you will see the rest in due time if you just look
I do hope this helps but ask me if you have a question
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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irisheyes
Kenyon wrote:
"how it thrills the heart to realize that this earth of ours, so small that one thousand of them can be lost in the sum, is the center and reason for the universe. . . .
When Love laid the foundations of this mighty universe, He planned, he purposed it all to be the home of His man.
It was the be man's birthplace, man's garden of delight, man's university where he would learn to know his father God. . . .
He filled earth's bosom with deposits of iron, copper, silver and gold ... metals,chemicals and resources that would respond to the touch of His man.
He covered the face of the Earth with mountains, valleys, ravines, plateaus and prairies, lovely rivulets and mighty rivers, and a garment of green intermingled with many colored flowers that thrilled with joy the hert of His man."
Talk about the universe . . . .
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CM
glad you're still hangin in here on this thread irisheyes.
there is certain beliefs that would be attacked quite strongly if i was to state them here now
Jesus the Christ did defeat death-it is finished
questions on those verses are real
and you have touched upon the very heart of God himself that lives and has made mankind and womankind
;)--> His habitation, His dwelling place
for if it is Christ in You, from which direction will he Come? and isn't this Glory to be revealed IN us?
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irisheyes
If there's a question in there somewhere, I missed it. I think you know where he will come from and the glory to be revealed in us will be revealed when he comes. I've had to deal with death a lot lately. Not just on a personal level, but, hey, I live in Louisiana. You try and tell someone from New Orleans that death is finished. I believe death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.
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CM
the truth is revealed
the word of life is evident
words live and have life
as we let them reveal
a question in there?
yeah...
if death is defeated do people really die?
or is there really life after death?
what does death mean?
what is the life after it?
how different is it then what is now?
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Tom
Death is the last enemy to be destroyed.
It hasn't been defeated - yet.
...when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then [not now] shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
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