You have no understanding of psychology or how the mind works.
Have you ever thought you just might be assuming too much there?
Sounds peculiarly like a certain Scientologist who recently went off the deep end on the Today Show...
Also, maybe a typo on your part, but project Paperclip was instituted after WWII, not WWI.
Sorry, but these two things happen to be my double major, so forgive me if I'm picky.
Conspiracy theories though, are not.
I do recall a certain German-American cult leader from Ohio, who subscribed to many conspiracy theories and propounded them to his followers, in order to keep them in fear and control them, though.
Nope, don't believe in conspiracy theories. There appears to be posters in GS whose only method of disagreeing with an opposite point of view is to attack the messenger. I was involved in "Project TWI" that used those methods to the extreme to belittle, deride and degrade people who "disagreed with leadership".
Had ENOUGH OF THAT DOCTRINE, so I preempted the thread with a warning. If you don't agree, I don't need your verbal attacks. If that is how things work on this board, it is just a little too close to "Project TWI" doctrine and practice for my comfort level.
If it happens on this thread I will contact the forum moderator and ask that my user information be deleted. A good discussion doesn't mean that you and I have to see eye to eye on EVERYTHING and it certainly doesn't mean that I can or should ATTACK someone who doesn't agree with my particular point of view.
Project Paperclip really happened, there are too many victims that have written books detailing the events surrounding the experiments. This isn't about Scientology, it is about the possibility that a certain cult based in Ohio "may" have picked up a few ideas from a certain Nazi program called "Project Paperclip". After reading thread after thread about violence, sex and drugs it appeared that there "might" be the possibility of a connection.
Of course, I could be all washed up on this and perhaps TWI wrote their own "mind control manual". Are you an expert on Project Paperclip? If so, perhaps you could enlighten me further as to how it worked, why the CIA was so impressed with it and implemented their own version (MK-Ultra) and why the victims are now coming forward with the sordid details of the experiments.
More importantly though, I am interested in the possiblity that leadership of TWI used the methodology as a basis of obtaining control over those of us who were "overly devoted" to TWI. As an observation, there appeared to be at least three separate waves of TWIer's who left TWI. I was in the FIRST wave that left.
As soon as I heard what was happening at International HQ, I BAILED immediately. Didn't have to pray about it, didn't have to ask my twig leader what I should do, didn't write a letter to LCM and see what he thought I should do. I simply walked. I did notice that the people who stayed seemed to be of a "weaker" mind set, or let's say "easily controlled".
Finally, after several years, the second wave left TWI and so on. Then, it seemed a LOT of TWI-like ministries sprung up all over the place. I've determined that when a ministry or group says, "we've got ALL the answers" and "no one knows the way and the truth like US" it is time to take a fast cab out of there.
THERE -- PARAGRAPHS LIKE THIS HELP OUT IMMENSELY!!:D-->
At the end of World War II, from the sinking Nazi ship of state to the ports of Bari and Genoa in Italy and elsewhere, unknown numbers of Nazi war criminals ran for their lives and escaped along ratlines, avoiding prosecution at the Nuremburg Trials. These men emigrated across the globe, but a high concentration of these war criminals ended up in South America by means of the extensive assistance of the Roman Catholic Church. Some of them were (and are) sheltered by and used in middle eastern countries (Notably Syria) to fuel anti-Semitism. Some attempted to blend in to the populace in the United States and elsewhere, to lead quiet unobtrusive lives.
After World War II, Nazi intelligentsia were recruited by both sides of the Cold War to benefit from their knowledge of science and technology, and to conduct espionage for both the United States and the Soviet Union, with the rescued Nazis laughingly pitting one against the other toward their own interests. In the United States, some of these war criminals were placed in our nuclear weapons research programs. Some of them work(ed) in NASA. And some of them were used in a top-secret program conducted by the CIA, called Project Paperclip.
Until recently, the documents relating to this project were highly classified. Project Paperclip did experiment with drugs, mind control, and other techniques in order to facilitate espionage during the Cold War. Declassified documents can reveal some of the content of the program, but if you want to investigate Project Paperclip yourself, I highly suggest you use primary source documents for your research and not rely on the plethora of internet sites which can be of questionable sources. A copy of a declassified document can be obtained through the Library of Congress. You will see a scanned copy of the documents themselves, along with the proper date and classification stamps right on the document.
Beware of second hand accounts. While doing an honors program research project on this subject a couple of years ago, I read several second hand accounts, one of which purported to have been presented at Indiana University. That note gives just slightly enough information to attempt to lend the account some credibility, without enough information to verify its authenticity.
I say that because The Way International also gave presentations at Indiana University. However, it was in a rented room at the Student Union. My interest would however, be piqued if in fact it turned out that this presentation was at a Symposium sponsored by Indiana University and attended by researchers, faculty, and students. Which, if the presentation had in fact been sponsored by such a prestigious University, they would have been proud to say so. They didn't.
While some pretty strange and atrocious things did come out of Project Paperclip and our government conducted experiments that I personally feel used and abused people, I highly doubt that the CIA was interested in a Podunk preacher from Ohio, when they had highly skilled and trained Nazi war criminals to work with in order to carry out their experiments--Which were, by the way, conducted in highly controlled environments, so as to keep their activities covert.
While there definitely was mental and sexual abuse in The Way International, behavioral and mind control techniques were used, and there admittedly was drug use among some of the people involved, it does not necessarily follow that The Way International and Victor Paul Wierwille were part of Project Paperclip.
In fact I believe that is a stretch. And to believe that Victor Paul Wierwille had special knowledge of this covert operation, which was totally under wraps in the tightest secrecy until after he was long dead, is also a stretch.
There are cults and even established churches all over the United States and the world, which employ abusive practices and behaviors against their followers. How many of them are pawns of the CIA? Say, all of them?
Note to Catcup: Notice I rewrote the post to be more "politically correct".
I see you made an edit. Not that it is "politically correct." You simply don't insult the intelligence of your readers with the omitted statement now. Thank you.
Like I said, I do not doubt that during Project Paperclip, our government conducted experiments that used and abused people, and some very weird and strange things came out of that project.
Where I have doubts is that VPW had any connection with them. Yes, he was German, but his ethnic heritage alone does not convict him. His family had already been in the United States for years. I have not seen any proof yet that he or any of his relatives were members of Hitler Youth, the Nazi Party, or any organizations within the United States at that time that were affiliated in any way with the Nazi Party.
VPW did though, disseminate information and publications among The Way Corps that the holocaust was either staged or not as severe as it is claimed to be. He is also rumored to have made the statement that in World War II, the United States was on the wrong side.
While those things are definitely alarming, they do not in and of themselves mean that VP had access to the information in Project Paperclip or was part of it.
Wierwille didn't need a specific "blueprint" or manual from P.P. regarding how to use mind control on large groups of people. Simple sociopathic propensities blended with the wide variety of psychological, sociological, and financial needs presented within a large population of people can make for a toxic potion of the symbiotic relationships that TWI produced. Or Hitler for that matter. Or David Koresh. Or Jim Jones. Take your pick. All it takes is a sociopath who combines his need for worship and elevation, to exploit the variety of psychological, financial, or other needs that anyone would find within a cross section of society. Add the timing of current political and social movements, and voila!
Hitler did have a plan. He tailored his plan to feed his own grandiose ego while exploiting the needs and desires of a nation which had been financially devastated and psychologically embarassed by the Treaty of Versailles.
VPW also had a plan. He had a product he believed in, and to sell in order to give him what he wanted out of life. During a huge social upheaval in the sixties, he used the timing and his product to exploit the youth and idealism of a generation looking for truth and purpose, in order to further his personal goals/greed/excesses.
Organizations like the CIA take note of how these movements occur, and try to duplicate the results under a controlled environment, containing the outcomes in order to maintain covert operations.
As a subset to VPWs plan was him yielding to the temptation to take advantage of young women under his care. This kind of temptation is common in student/teacher, patient/doctor, client/counselor, and layperson/pastor relationships, and this is why in those professional relationships, it is never an "affair" if the person with the most power crosses the line. That's rape. It always has been, and it always will be.
These abuses happen in school lockerrooms, doctors offices, psychiatrists couches, and pastors parsonages, in addition to VPW's motorcoach. It just doesn't constitute a connection with Project Paperclip, IMO.
And yes, I believe all of these people who participated in the exploitation and ruin of countless lives, will be judged and found wanting. It is my fervent hope and desire that I, and all survivors of such abuse, get to witness their judgment.
Interesting, but I'll need to read through the whole thread when I have a little more time. Intially though, my thoughts are that vee pee would LOVE to be thought of in light of this type of conspiracy theory, though doubtful that he was.
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Catcup
Have you ever thought you just might be assuming too much there?
Sounds peculiarly like a certain Scientologist who recently went off the deep end on the Today Show...
Also, maybe a typo on your part, but project Paperclip was instituted after WWII, not WWI.
Sorry, but these two things happen to be my double major, so forgive me if I'm picky.
Conspiracy theories though, are not.
I do recall a certain German-American cult leader from Ohio, who subscribed to many conspiracy theories and propounded them to his followers, in order to keep them in fear and control them, though.
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dmiller
All this other rhetoric aside --- one thing I do believe in is:
PARAGRAPHS!!!
Please utilize them ChainClanker --- It will make your posts much easier to read.
As it is -- no matter what you say is a chore to look at, and hard to decipher.
Thanks for your kind consideration in future posts.
:)-->
David
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dmiller
THERE -- PARAGRAPHS LIKE THIS HELP OUT IMMENSELY!!
:D-->
David
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dmiller
Now that I sorted your post out into read-able fashion, I saw this:
Well -- I dunno, but will not discount the fact that they could have.
After all -- docvic took everything he could from other biblical authors, so I wouldn't put it past him to do the same in other areas of life.
But as usual -- that's just my *imho*.
David
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WordWolf
This is interesting, and I'll need to sit down at some point
soon and read all that.
I'm initially dubious that this program itself was used in
twi. It's not inconceivable that techniques used in this
program would resemble techniques used in a LOT of places
for conformity or other things, and thus they'd resemble each
other without a common origin. Rather than leap to a theory
of common origin, I'll remain skeptical of that until and
unless sufficient proof is presented otherwise.
(Which, of course, may be in those links I haven't
reviewed yet.)
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Catcup
At the end of World War II, from the sinking Nazi ship of state to the ports of Bari and Genoa in Italy and elsewhere, unknown numbers of Nazi war criminals ran for their lives and escaped along ratlines, avoiding prosecution at the Nuremburg Trials. These men emigrated across the globe, but a high concentration of these war criminals ended up in South America by means of the extensive assistance of the Roman Catholic Church. Some of them were (and are) sheltered by and used in middle eastern countries (Notably Syria) to fuel anti-Semitism. Some attempted to blend in to the populace in the United States and elsewhere, to lead quiet unobtrusive lives.
After World War II, Nazi intelligentsia were recruited by both sides of the Cold War to benefit from their knowledge of science and technology, and to conduct espionage for both the United States and the Soviet Union, with the rescued Nazis laughingly pitting one against the other toward their own interests. In the United States, some of these war criminals were placed in our nuclear weapons research programs. Some of them work(ed) in NASA. And some of them were used in a top-secret program conducted by the CIA, called Project Paperclip.
Until recently, the documents relating to this project were highly classified. Project Paperclip did experiment with drugs, mind control, and other techniques in order to facilitate espionage during the Cold War. Declassified documents can reveal some of the content of the program, but if you want to investigate Project Paperclip yourself, I highly suggest you use primary source documents for your research and not rely on the plethora of internet sites which can be of questionable sources. A copy of a declassified document can be obtained through the Library of Congress. You will see a scanned copy of the documents themselves, along with the proper date and classification stamps right on the document.
Beware of second hand accounts. While doing an honors program research project on this subject a couple of years ago, I read several second hand accounts, one of which purported to have been presented at Indiana University. That note gives just slightly enough information to attempt to lend the account some credibility, without enough information to verify its authenticity.
I say that because The Way International also gave presentations at Indiana University. However, it was in a rented room at the Student Union. My interest would however, be piqued if in fact it turned out that this presentation was at a Symposium sponsored by Indiana University and attended by researchers, faculty, and students. Which, if the presentation had in fact been sponsored by such a prestigious University, they would have been proud to say so. They didn't.
While some pretty strange and atrocious things did come out of Project Paperclip and our government conducted experiments that I personally feel used and abused people, I highly doubt that the CIA was interested in a Podunk preacher from Ohio, when they had highly skilled and trained Nazi war criminals to work with in order to carry out their experiments--Which were, by the way, conducted in highly controlled environments, so as to keep their activities covert.
While there definitely was mental and sexual abuse in The Way International, behavioral and mind control techniques were used, and there admittedly was drug use among some of the people involved, it does not necessarily follow that The Way International and Victor Paul Wierwille were part of Project Paperclip.
In fact I believe that is a stretch. And to believe that Victor Paul Wierwille had special knowledge of this covert operation, which was totally under wraps in the tightest secrecy until after he was long dead, is also a stretch.
There are cults and even established churches all over the United States and the world, which employ abusive practices and behaviors against their followers. How many of them are pawns of the CIA? Say, all of them?
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Catcup
I see you made an edit. Not that it is "politically correct." You simply don't insult the intelligence of your readers with the omitted statement now. Thank you.
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Catcup
Like I said, I do not doubt that during Project Paperclip, our government conducted experiments that used and abused people, and some very weird and strange things came out of that project.
Where I have doubts is that VPW had any connection with them. Yes, he was German, but his ethnic heritage alone does not convict him. His family had already been in the United States for years. I have not seen any proof yet that he or any of his relatives were members of Hitler Youth, the Nazi Party, or any organizations within the United States at that time that were affiliated in any way with the Nazi Party.
VPW did though, disseminate information and publications among The Way Corps that the holocaust was either staged or not as severe as it is claimed to be. He is also rumored to have made the statement that in World War II, the United States was on the wrong side.
While those things are definitely alarming, they do not in and of themselves mean that VP had access to the information in Project Paperclip or was part of it.
Wierwille didn't need a specific "blueprint" or manual from P.P. regarding how to use mind control on large groups of people. Simple sociopathic propensities blended with the wide variety of psychological, sociological, and financial needs presented within a large population of people can make for a toxic potion of the symbiotic relationships that TWI produced. Or Hitler for that matter. Or David Koresh. Or Jim Jones. Take your pick. All it takes is a sociopath who combines his need for worship and elevation, to exploit the variety of psychological, financial, or other needs that anyone would find within a cross section of society. Add the timing of current political and social movements, and voila!
Hitler did have a plan. He tailored his plan to feed his own grandiose ego while exploiting the needs and desires of a nation which had been financially devastated and psychologically embarassed by the Treaty of Versailles.
VPW also had a plan. He had a product he believed in, and to sell in order to give him what he wanted out of life. During a huge social upheaval in the sixties, he used the timing and his product to exploit the youth and idealism of a generation looking for truth and purpose, in order to further his personal goals/greed/excesses.
Organizations like the CIA take note of how these movements occur, and try to duplicate the results under a controlled environment, containing the outcomes in order to maintain covert operations.
As a subset to VPWs plan was him yielding to the temptation to take advantage of young women under his care. This kind of temptation is common in student/teacher, patient/doctor, client/counselor, and layperson/pastor relationships, and this is why in those professional relationships, it is never an "affair" if the person with the most power crosses the line. That's rape. It always has been, and it always will be.
These abuses happen in school lockerrooms, doctors offices, psychiatrists couches, and pastors parsonages, in addition to VPW's motorcoach. It just doesn't constitute a connection with Project Paperclip, IMO.
And yes, I believe all of these people who participated in the exploitation and ruin of countless lives, will be judged and found wanting. It is my fervent hope and desire that I, and all survivors of such abuse, get to witness their judgment.
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Belle
Interesting, but I'll need to read through the whole thread when I have a little more time. Intially though, my thoughts are that vee pee would LOVE to be thought of in light of this type of conspiracy theory, though doubtful that he was.
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