The "canary in the coal mine" thing got my attention.
Anytime people put systems, beliefs, rules and regualations above caring relationaships with other humans, something is very amiss.
Any system that isolates and alienates family members, friends, etc. is really messed up. It ain't that hard to care about others. Anybody or anything that discourages that caring and connectedness, is screwy.
The whole gospel of Jesus Christ is about loving others. Hello, it summed up the law of the Old Testament which was largely about the reverance of God, which is lived out in the treatment of other humans on the planet.
Yeah...Sometime after I left twi, I began to realize that twi had interfered with my own personal spiritual life...
...My bull .... meter goes off whenever I see people trying to institutionalize God and become official spokesmen for Him...
...I think it's more of a personal journey...Things have to be kept in perspective and people with titles need to be kept in check...Nobody sticks their nose in my business in the name of God anymore...no thank you...don't need it, won't stand for it.
I wasn't as perceptive as WordWolf. I finally got wind of the sex allegations, and the firing of John Sc*oen*eit for writing a paper about adultery -- and it didn't take much to put two and two together.
Once I got out, things clicked into place. Meebe I'm a canary with a bad sense of smell!
I've attended a few churches since leaving twi and have always been turned off after just ONE meeting. Surprisingly, NOT usually by their doctrine. What makes my Red-Flag-O-Meter go off?
1 - recruiting agenda (more business than heart)
The gal walked over to me, stack of cards in her hands. She handed me one. Without looking me in the eye, and without engaging me in any kind of conversation, or welcoming me in any way, she said, "I need you to fill out this card, please. I'll be back in a few minutes to collect it."
[Gee, you make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.]
2 - manipulation and control
The obligatory new-person card had only two options to choose from:
-- I'm a born-again Christian, interested in becoming a member of your church
-- I'm looking for answers in my life and would like to counsel with one of your pastors
That's it: you are either in our club or you want to get into our club.
3 - negative narrow-mindedness
While attending what I thought would be a nice, traditional Easter service, I was haranged with the message that if I didn't believe Jesus was God I was going to Hell. Period. You are bad, you are doomed, you are stupid... for an hour and a half.
[Like those kinds of statements could convince anyone to rethink their beliefs. Real uplifting.]
4 - invasiveness
When filling out the new-person-card I purposely didn't give them my phone number. The following week my koolaid-drinking-ex (the only one in the phone book with our name) got a phone call from the deacon of this church trying to locate me!!!
[trust me, this fella got quite the return phone call from me.]
I love the description of us being the canaries in the mines... I know I have a zero-tolerance for "show" without substance. All of these examples were from different churches...
I wasn't as perceptive as WordWolf. I finally got wind of the sex allegations, and the firing of John Sc*oen*eit for writing a paper about adultery -- and it didn't take much to put two and two together.
Once I got out, things clicked into place. Meebe I'm a canary with a bad sense of smell!
It took a ball bat to make me see the light. -->
Actually, I had the benefit of reviewing an entire week at once. It's hard to do
spin-control across an entire ROA-which was one reason why they were cancelled.
And, I went in with the intention of looking-since I had already gotten the
"all your local leaders are corrupt!" letter, and I knew that those I'd interacted
with were NOT. So, I was already aware there was a "disconnect" somewhere.
Heck-it was theoretically possible that the top guys were all in the zone and the locals
really WERE corrupt. So, I had to kick the tires myself.
==============
TheHighWay,
so, you're saying that people greeted your entrance with a form to fill out-
and you put ACCURATE information on it?
The new-person card that is intrusive is just BEGGING for inaccurate information,
I'm very sensitive to "performance based" religion or anything else. I let 'em have it at one of our "Purpose Driven Life" small group studies once because it was so freaking TWI performance based that I was getting physically ill. I quit the group and the people who were in it went to the preacher with the same concerns that I had voiced because they saw it once I pointed it out.
I'm also hyper-alert to "we have all the answers" attitudes. This church isn't like TWI at all and the first few months I was attending I listened carefully for any hint that they thought they as a church or their religion was better than anyone else. I was expecting it and I was ready to pounce. Never heard it. Never even got a whiff of that kind of attitude. After a while I relaxed and ya know, it's real refreshing to not be subjected to that kind of arrogance.
A friend gave me a copy of "What God Wants" to read. I started but the whole first five chapters are nothing but...."the whole world is wrong and going to hell in a handbasket if everyone doesn't change and listen to what I have to say." Makes my blood boil!
Whenever I'm in a situation where I'm "herded into a room" and instructed to find my chair....my canary is wary. It becomes my first alert alarm.
I refuse to become just another number in someone's organization or church. I can smell that kind of attitude on the ushers!
Whenever someone is "selling" anything.....I refuse to be cornered or pin-holed in any way, shape or form. So many of these places are like the barking carnival worker who's trying to get my attention and money.
Self-preservation and individuality are worlds apart from groupthink suffocation
This past week I attended a church that was absolutly wonderful. It consisted of all types of people but perdominatly Gay/Lesbian. The minister in my opinion was the most loving and accepting minister I have ever met. His sermon was powerful about being yeilding in insignifacant matters. At the end they offered communion and was so moved by the cerimony I just cried deeply inside.
There was no pressure to give money, become a memeber, or attend. They did not give me a card to sign and just said "Go in Peace". The Church abeyance was like a warm comforter on a cold winter nite. I felt overwelmed emotionally because all that I had experianced about Christianity was so different from that moment. There was a love and acceptance I have never known or experianced in a community of "believers". Last week was the most powerful moment to date with Christianity.
My alarms go off when any of the following happens:
1. Anybody presumes to know what the almighty thinks/wants/says. Or proclaims that there is such a thing as the almighty, with a certainty that assumes my beliefs about the subject are less valid than theirs.
2. Any belief or logic where the validity of the input is changed based on the output. For example, if you get the right results [output] then you were believing right, or your attitude was right or you were "present" or in your "knowing" but if you got the wrong result then you weren't. If you can't tell till after the fact - it smacks of cultism.
3. Any situation where a person asks you to go against your gut without any explanation other than "trust me I know better, or I'm more experienced" There are exceptions to this but they are based on real expertise that is repeatable and consistent - and usually accompanied by humility.
4. Any belief system that is based on hypocracy or "Do as I say not as I do".
5. Any situation where the concept is judged not on it's logic but on it's conclusion. eg it's more comfortable to believe the world was created by an intelligent designer so any evidence that points in the opposite direction must be wrong.
I've been attending meetings with a group for close to two years. I have never been asked to join. I have never been asked to give money. I have never been asked to give time. It has never been suggested that they know all the answers or that I learn from them. Absolutely no pressure.
In our exit from TWI, I am checking out other things, churches etc...
I thought I found one, non-denom, "for a change" was the motto...
So I went on their web=site to view their beliefs etc.. and it scared me!!
It said you watch "a video" about them, and then you sign a paper saying you join and then if you don't come for 6 months you get booted, and then, they went into Mattew 18 and how they handle poeple who are "sinning". I don't think I am ready for that.........................................................ever!
I need a little less hard times, I need a little more bliss....."
Bliss, I know exactly what you mean! There's this one church that has grown by leaps and bounds and everyone I've talked to absolutely loves it. I could hardly wait to check it out. I went on the web to look them up and to see when their service hours are. I was shocked to find similar things to what you found. There's a class you have to take to become a member and they have different levels of classes.... -->
No thanks! Thankfully they are at least upfront and honest on their own website. I'm so glad the world wide web and GSpot are out here for people to learn more about what they might be getting into.
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WordWolf
"You live your life like a canary in a coalmine."
Now you've got me humming the old song by "The Police".
====
Well,
I should only answer for what worked for ME, and let others say what warned THEM.
I moved pretty quick when I found things that didn't gel for me,
more than once.
("Your sensibilities are shaken by the slightest defect..")
When it came to twi,
the first signs for me were the strife in the upper echelons. I told someone that
they'd work things out among themselves-which I actually believed. The next thing I
heard was the Trump imitation-"you're fired" said to everyone in my state's
leadership. I went to ROA '89, the next ROA after that. I figured that it would be
THE place to be. Either I would see leadership turn around-and be there for the
announcement, or I'd get irrefutable evidence they wigged out, and get a last chance
to raid the bookstore.
So, there I saw a number of things that hammered across which way the wind was
blowing.
One was lcm saying that it was wrong to appeal to emotion, and then IMMEDIATELY
show the one scene from AOS that was designed to tug on the heartstrings.
I stood there seething at the sheer hypocrisy of that.
Another was the way every wierwille who could be convinced was brought onstage and
trotted out for the audience. They didn't take the microphone, so they were just there
as display pieces, as bric-a-brac. Except for Mrs W, who said that she didn't think
it was loving when people told her recently that they loved her but could not remain
in the same organization as her. (Sorry, Mrs W, I heartily disagree with your comments.
"What kind of love is this? It's certainly not 'agape-love.'" Actually, that's
exactly the kind it is.)
I also noticed that conversations were MONITORED, and the teachings were of lesser
quality.
Finally, the letter that was sent out that fired everyone said things that weren't
true about them -that they were only in things for the money. I had interacted with a
few, and the money seemed the LEAST of their concerns, although it was clear they were
facing immediate loss of place of residence, vehicle AND source of income.
(That's enough to get ANYBODY worried about money.)
After that,
I was wary when people concentrated power and were wary to share it.
I saw people who were happier disempowering the young than either training them
to do things, or even simply do nothing and let them develop their own skills.
Further, the attitudes were one of exclusivity- only THEY had any competency,
so any leadership training was either THEM or INADEQUATE.
Finally, any mention of something they were thinking of doing-if someone else
had already done it-would produce NO reaction, not even asking for input.
That is, them doing something the first time was superior to others having
experience. So, I let them go their way and went mine.
Outside of twi entirely, I encountered Christians who were convinced they were THE
group-and they were poor performers compared to twi. As far as they were concerned,
knowledge only came from THEM as well.
=====
So, what warning signs have I seen?
Appeals to emotion, hypocrisy (leader teaches one thing then does the opposite),
style raised over substance, control of information, outright lying,
channeling of authority into the hands of a few,
and the doctrine that only THIS group holds "The Truth", and all
other Christians love lies, have no commitment to God, and so on.
That last one's pretty popular when I'm running for the door.
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Oakspear
I haven't "joined" anything, but on an individual level, anything that is an absolute gets my attention.
Any system of thought or belief that discourages questioning sets off the alarms.
Any deriding or disparaging of those who aren't in the know raises my hackles.
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ex10
The "canary in the coal mine" thing got my attention.
Anytime people put systems, beliefs, rules and regualations above caring relationaships with other humans, something is very amiss.
Any system that isolates and alienates family members, friends, etc. is really messed up. It ain't that hard to care about others. Anybody or anything that discourages that caring and connectedness, is screwy.
The whole gospel of Jesus Christ is about loving others. Hello, it summed up the law of the Old Testament which was largely about the reverance of God, which is lived out in the treatment of other humans on the planet.
Duh.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah...Sometime after I left twi, I began to realize that twi had interfered with my own personal spiritual life...
...My bull .... meter goes off whenever I see people trying to institutionalize God and become official spokesmen for Him...
...I think it's more of a personal journey...Things have to be kept in perspective and people with titles need to be kept in check...Nobody sticks their nose in my business in the name of God anymore...no thank you...don't need it, won't stand for it.
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dmiller
I wasn't as perceptive as WordWolf. I finally got wind of the sex allegations, and the firing of John Sc*oen*eit for writing a paper about adultery -- and it didn't take much to put two and two together.
Once I got out, things clicked into place. Meebe I'm a canary with a bad sense of smell!
It took a ball bat to make me see the light.
-->
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dmiller
Oak -- I hear ya! I've tried a few *outfits* since twi, and I take them all with a grain of salt.
Seems like every last somebody thinks they have the total truth.
I know they don't, so I take what is good, and leave the junk.
:)-->
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dmiller
And yes --- I sleep quite well at night. No recriminations here at all for doing what I have done!
:D-->
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Juan Cruz
Ironic isn't it?
Victor DID, in the end,
make us experts in telling the real
from the counterfeit.
I can smell a closed mind a mile away...
(but I can usually sense where fresh air
might come in too).
It's a tone, isn't it?
it sounds like they might say
"I know the answer."
or
"I know that I know...."
if pressed
(We've got better things to do
-like run the other way)
Anybody who talks like that
knows nothing.
He who knows, says nothing.
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imbus
A closed mind with a dash of arrogance does it for me.
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Sunny1
Hello Word Wolf. . . .
You are deep and extremely insightful. I assume by your name that you are a man but perhaps not. It's interesting you chose the name Word "Wolf".
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TheHighWay
I've attended a few churches since leaving twi and have always been turned off after just ONE meeting. Surprisingly, NOT usually by their doctrine. What makes my Red-Flag-O-Meter go off?
1 - recruiting agenda (more business than heart)
The gal walked over to me, stack of cards in her hands. She handed me one. Without looking me in the eye, and without engaging me in any kind of conversation, or welcoming me in any way, she said, "I need you to fill out this card, please. I'll be back in a few minutes to collect it."
[Gee, you make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.]
2 - manipulation and control
The obligatory new-person card had only two options to choose from:
-- I'm a born-again Christian, interested in becoming a member of your church
-- I'm looking for answers in my life and would like to counsel with one of your pastors
That's it: you are either in our club or you want to get into our club.
3 - negative narrow-mindedness
While attending what I thought would be a nice, traditional Easter service, I was haranged with the message that if I didn't believe Jesus was God I was going to Hell. Period. You are bad, you are doomed, you are stupid... for an hour and a half.
[Like those kinds of statements could convince anyone to rethink their beliefs. Real uplifting.]
4 - invasiveness
When filling out the new-person-card I purposely didn't give them my phone number. The following week my koolaid-drinking-ex (the only one in the phone book with our name) got a phone call from the deacon of this church trying to locate me!!!
[trust me, this fella got quite the return phone call from me.]
I love the description of us being the canaries in the mines... I know I have a zero-tolerance for "show" without substance. All of these examples were from different churches...
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WordWolf
Actually, I had the benefit of reviewing an entire week at once. It's hard to do
spin-control across an entire ROA-which was one reason why they were cancelled.
And, I went in with the intention of looking-since I had already gotten the
"all your local leaders are corrupt!" letter, and I knew that those I'd interacted
with were NOT. So, I was already aware there was a "disconnect" somewhere.
Heck-it was theoretically possible that the top guys were all in the zone and the locals
really WERE corrupt. So, I had to kick the tires myself.
==============
TheHighWay,
so, you're saying that people greeted your entrance with a form to fill out-
and you put ACCURATE information on it?
The new-person card that is intrusive is just BEGGING for inaccurate information,
starting with the person's name.
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Belle
I'm very sensitive to "performance based" religion or anything else. I let 'em have it at one of our "Purpose Driven Life" small group studies once because it was so freaking TWI performance based that I was getting physically ill. I quit the group and the people who were in it went to the preacher with the same concerns that I had voiced because they saw it once I pointed it out.
I'm also hyper-alert to "we have all the answers" attitudes. This church isn't like TWI at all and the first few months I was attending I listened carefully for any hint that they thought they as a church or their religion was better than anyone else. I was expecting it and I was ready to pounce. Never heard it. Never even got a whiff of that kind of attitude. After a while I relaxed and ya know, it's real refreshing to not be subjected to that kind of arrogance.
A friend gave me a copy of "What God Wants" to read. I started but the whole first five chapters are nothing but...."the whole world is wrong and going to hell in a handbasket if everyone doesn't change and listen to what I have to say." Makes my blood boil!
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skyrider
Whenever I'm in a situation where I'm "herded into a room" and instructed to find my chair....my canary is wary. It becomes my first alert alarm.
I refuse to become just another number in someone's organization or church. I can smell that kind of attitude on the ushers!
Whenever someone is "selling" anything.....I refuse to be cornered or pin-holed in any way, shape or form. So many of these places are like the barking carnival worker who's trying to get my attention and money.
Self-preservation and individuality are worlds apart from groupthink suffocation
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imbus
This past week I attended a church that was absolutly wonderful. It consisted of all types of people but perdominatly Gay/Lesbian. The minister in my opinion was the most loving and accepting minister I have ever met. His sermon was powerful about being yeilding in insignifacant matters. At the end they offered communion and was so moved by the cerimony I just cried deeply inside.
There was no pressure to give money, become a memeber, or attend. They did not give me a card to sign and just said "Go in Peace". The Church abeyance was like a warm comforter on a cold winter nite. I felt overwelmed emotionally because all that I had experianced about Christianity was so different from that moment. There was a love and acceptance I have never known or experianced in a community of "believers". Last week was the most powerful moment to date with Christianity.
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TheHighWay
Wordwolf... yeah, silly me for being HONEST at a CHURCH !!! lol
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My3Cents
Great point about the canary.
My alarms go off when any of the following happens:
1. Anybody presumes to know what the almighty thinks/wants/says. Or proclaims that there is such a thing as the almighty, with a certainty that assumes my beliefs about the subject are less valid than theirs.
2. Any belief or logic where the validity of the input is changed based on the output. For example, if you get the right results [output] then you were believing right, or your attitude was right or you were "present" or in your "knowing" but if you got the wrong result then you weren't. If you can't tell till after the fact - it smacks of cultism.
3. Any situation where a person asks you to go against your gut without any explanation other than "trust me I know better, or I'm more experienced" There are exceptions to this but they are based on real expertise that is repeatable and consistent - and usually accompanied by humility.
4. Any belief system that is based on hypocracy or "Do as I say not as I do".
5. Any situation where the concept is judged not on it's logic but on it's conclusion. eg it's more comfortable to believe the world was created by an intelligent designer so any evidence that points in the opposite direction must be wrong.
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Oakspear
I've been attending meetings with a group for close to two years. I have never been asked to join. I have never been asked to give money. I have never been asked to give time. It has never been suggested that they know all the answers or that I learn from them. Absolutely no pressure.
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bliss
Can i come?
:D-->
In our exit from TWI, I am checking out other things, churches etc...
I thought I found one, non-denom, "for a change" was the motto...
So I went on their web=site to view their beliefs etc.. and it scared me!!
It said you watch "a video" about them, and then you sign a paper saying you join and then if you don't come for 6 months you get booted, and then, they went into Mattew 18 and how they handle poeple who are "sinning". I don't think I am ready for that.........................................................ever!
I need a little less hard times, I need a little more bliss....."
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Belle
Bliss, I know exactly what you mean! There's this one church that has grown by leaps and bounds and everyone I've talked to absolutely loves it. I could hardly wait to check it out. I went on the web to look them up and to see when their service hours are. I was shocked to find similar things to what you found. There's a class you have to take to become a member and they have different levels of classes....
-->
No thanks! Thankfully they are at least upfront and honest on their own website. I'm so glad the world wide web and GSpot are out here for people to learn more about what they might be getting into.
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skyrider
Sheeeesh.....what is it about the CASTE SYSTEM that is sooooooo appealing????
Maybe......."a place for everybody, and everybody in their place." ?????
Wonder if the staffers have a wood-grained nametag??
-->
No thanks.
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