Just by reading what you have written here, I realize that I have not dealt yet with my experience in The Way.
The way I know that is because I still have an emotional attachment to my captor. But reading what you have written here is jarring my brain and that is the most important part of getting it all straight -- not my heart. I suppose it's all connected.
I've been out for 5 years -- not that long really. I was in for 14. It's kind of scary to realize that I've not dealt yet because to me that means I'm going to start dealing with it. . . .
Maybe if you delete 'try not to be accussatory, viscious or rude in your postings' your statement might be a bit more honest.
Oh and how about adding 'if you disagree with some of us or happen to mention you still believe some of the stuff taught in twi you will be ridiculed, flamed etcc..
That would be more honest Wordwolf.
I know 'Waydale' and the earlier version of 'greasespot' helped a lot of 'innies' to leave but I wonder if the current 'mood' of this forum would actually help people decide to stay !!
You know..might as well stay in der Vey and be criticized, ridiculed, picked on etc.. and then at least they wouldn't have to listen to paganistic,atheistic diatribe.
Maybe if you delete 'try not to be accussatory, viscious or rude in your postings' your statement might be a bit more honest.
Care to explain?
Pointing out a logical flaw, or showing something to be false that was presented as at fact is not being viscious or accusatory. It is a part of the debate process. However, certain folks will almost always cry fowl when their ideas are challenged.
quote:
Oh and how about adding 'if you disagree with some of us or happen to mention you still believe some of the stuff taught in twi you will be ridiculed, flamed etcc..
That would be more honest Wordwolf.
Actually it would be quite dishonest for the most part. Many of us here still believe "some of the stuff taught in TWI", yet we are not flamed or ridiculed for the most part. Disagreement here can, (but does not always) lead to "ridicule and flaming". Some folks know how to disagree politly, others admittedy need to grow up a bit here. However, there always seems to be that small element here, that accuses other of flaming and ridicule when they are simply being challened on their ideas. Can't help that.
It seems that where the so-called ridicule and flaming comes in, is when some folks assess TWI by their own particular experience and deny the experiences of others as if they never happened.
It happens when folks deny, gloss-over, or minimize the clearly documented offenses of TWI and its leaders, just because they think they were "blessed" by those same leaders.
It happens when folks deny the hard facts of the abuses that happened to many and then call the fact-bearers liars -- or even worse, blame the victims for the evil done to them at the hands of their heros. This will almost certainly bring on the "ridicule and flaming".
sometimes, too, the way things are worded - regardless of position - will generate so called flaming or perhaps less than cordial comments. It's easier to get people to listen to your position or to seriously consider one's position when spoken politely and from an informed, unemotional position than as an attack or as if one is looking for a fight or "daring" someone to disagree.
Hello again WordWolf. I posted on another threat today in answer to some things you had said to me. I just read your suggestions for new posters and thank you for all the great information and the path to find out more. I guess what I don't understand is why TWI would even care what is said here. They haven't any power over those of us who have left and know in their hearts it was the right thing to do. What can they do to me or anyone else now that we are gone? This is an honest question because I just don't understand. I believe many things you have stated about TWI and the debauchery it was and probably still is. But why would they care about those of us on this forum who have left and most of us left with a bad taste in our mouth. I would think they would just write us off to the devil (according to their doctrine) Should I go back and read the links you suggested? Jewel , a new poster
I think they do know how much evil was/is associated with twi,they might not be aware of just how much evil is just outside of twi as well, better to give them a balanced view I say.
I think they do know how much evil was/is associated with twi,they might not be aware of just how much evil is just outside of twi as well, better to give them a balanced view I say.
Yep. Sounds like the Curse of loy.. "Won't take my word for it? Just GO out there, just go and look. There is NOTHING godly or worthwhile, and things out there are just so darn EVIL... the WHOLE WORLD STINKS. Go ahead and GO. But don't say I didn't warn you about all the devils, beasts, and wild animals that await you.. "
That little tirade made MOST people afraid to go and even look..
I can outline evil for you fellow.
Almost ten years out of this stinking, opressive outfit, and the effects are just now starting to wear off.
p.s. This is not a Christian forum.All are allowed, encouraged and appreciated for sharing their opinion or point of view. Expect to have those opinions and points of view challenged, questioned and/or discussed. However, sometimes we have to agree to disagree. :)-->
I don't think that's too far off the beaten track..
May be helpful for those who "just got here".
Really. You're not gonna be a greasespot by midnight or anything..
All those tirades mean NOTHING.
Like voodoo, the only way they can effect you is if you believe them.
Sure, the world isn't paradise on earth or anything, but even the "devils" are friendlier than the leadership I left behind in TWI.
Case in point:
quote:
You know..might as well stay in der Vey and be criticized, ridiculed, picked on etc.. and then at least they wouldn't have to listen to paganistic,atheistic diatribe.
Same argument. "Stay, and put up with our junk for getting a few blessings, or just go out with 'them'"
Personally, I'd listen to paganistic, atheistic diatribe over that junk any day of the week..
its gotta be bad when the "unbelievers" make more sense.
Thanks WordWolf for your answer. I did not realize that there would be people still in TWI that would come and read the posts here. I would think they may think the devil would just jump right out of the computer and get them. So why do they stay in TWI? I can only think TWI attracts people who want to be better than anyone else. (maybe like the "Church Lady" on Saturday Night Live) To tell you the truth I had to come to grips with that myself, after I left. I liked knowing "the truth" more than anyone else. It is a big ego trip to think you have the cornerstone on the truth. I do know some people stay because of fear and that is so sad. So GS is living proof to those still in that there is life after TWI. God help those still in. Jewel
Agree to all of that as long as readers have an idea what kind of people are posting..
Maybe we could start off our posts like.."Hi, my name is Allan, I'm a Christian" or "Hi, my name is Rascal and I'm a Pagan" or "Hi, my name is Bramble and I'm a Wicca (witch), or "Hi, my name is Cool Waters and I'm a New-Ager" just thinking, it might help ??
Help in what way? So that people can be pre-judged and have the GSpot version of a nametag? So that people can be pigeon-holed into a single classification and be automatically discredited on whatever they say regardless of the topic just because of a classification?
GSPOT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN FORUM! Someone's path after TWI is in no way relevant to their comments on their experience in TWI. It also in no way discredits them and, in many cases, is totally irrelevant to the conversation.
How else do you want us to label ourselves? Want us to tell our sexual orientation? Our race? Our heritage? Our education level? Our occupation? Our shoe size?
I would like to think we're no longer as small-minded as we were while in TWI. I would also like to think it's enlightening and a good exercise to listen to and allow others' points of view, experiences, beliefs and thoughts.
As someone who was enlightened by GSC, I can say that a lot of things I found out helped me to exit twi.
I started posting as an innie in October 2002. Ironically I started posting after chastising my innie boyfriend (ex BF now) at the time for even reading GSC. He came to my house for lunch one day telling me all kinds of things he read and how F'd up twi is. This was based on things he read in GSC.
It must have stirred my curiousity because I had only read GSC a little after I left HQ. I never dared to read it while on Staff because someone would have caught me since the only internet available was at the local libraries. At that time, I thought posters were a bunch of disgruntled people who would say anything. Because of the ex-boyfriend, I started to read GSC once again. Then more things happened in my life because of twi which started to make me question my involvement. The control they were trying to take over my personal life was a HUGE issue for me. I started searching back in my mind the past 20 years of my involvement with twi to determine if it had been as rosy as I had been led to believe. NO! It wasn't!!!
I made a decision that the ACS 2002 would be my decision-making moment with my future of twi. That trip was a huge waste of money! It was re-hashed crap which had already been taught and then presented to advanced class grads. Any newbie could have been there. It showed me twi was not growing. Making a decision to leave was an emotional time for me. I tried to talk myself out of leaving. I got into many discussions with GSers about it. I even got mad and told GSers they dwelling in their sorrow and that I was done posting. But then reality set in for me. I was STILL involved in a group trying to take over my life! I continued to read GSC even though I didn't post.
Someone posted that they had information for me. I emailed them, and the rest is history. The email helped me to make my decision. It helped me to realize that I was unhappy and living a lie. No abundance, no real happiness, no harmony, nothing they promised on the green card. Sure, I could have been just as unhappy in any church, but I was in a group who deemed themselves THE ONLY ONE WITH THE TRUTH! How does that truth fit in with all of the practical errors over the years? This was a huge turning point for me.
Thanks to GSC I left the first week of December 2002! GSC is not a perfect place either, but it does help people to see the reality of a terrible organization which calls itself godly.
Agree to all of that as long as readers have an idea what kind of people are posting..
Maybe we could start off our posts like.."Hi, my name is Allan, I'm a Christian" or "Hi, my name is Rascal and I'm a Pagan" or "Hi, my name is Bramble and I'm a Wicca (witch), or "Hi, my name is Cool Waters and I'm a New-Ager" just thinking, it might help ??
Alan, that was truly uncalled for. You don't act very "Christian" to me. From one Christian to another, I would much rather hang out with the so called pagans, witches and new agers than with you.
Agree to all of that as long as readers have an idea what kind of people are posting..
Maybe we could start off our posts like.."Hi, my name is Allan, I'm a Christian" or "Hi, my name is Rascal and I'm a Pagan" or "Hi, my name is Bramble and I'm a Wicca (witch), or "Hi, my name is Cool Waters and I'm a New-Ager" just thinking, it might help ??
Allan, this is not a Christian forum, it is an ex Way forum. Not all ex Way are Christian, but they can still speak about thier experiences in TWI. If Pawtucket wants the non Christians to leave, he can say so. It is his forum.
If you click on names you can read profiles--that may tell you about the person.
Rascal, as far as I know, is Christian, but with you around, you just might steer her my way. The anti witness--turning people off from your faith..
If being on a message board with non Christians is so horrifying, maybe you could join one of the all Christian ex Way forums, or start your own.
Someone not Christian is not automatically eeeviiilll. Just as someone who is Christian is not automatically good.
Since I've never been involved in, say, the prison system, or with drug dealers or violent gang members, my closest brush with evil folk has been some experiences I've had with Way Leaders.
I don't think I've ever said non-Christians are evil but I might tend to think that someone who believes they are an 'anti-witness' has some serious 'spiritual issues' ?!
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Sunny1
Hello WordWolf.
Just by reading what you have written here, I realize that I have not dealt yet with my experience in The Way.
The way I know that is because I still have an emotional attachment to my captor. But reading what you have written here is jarring my brain and that is the most important part of getting it all straight -- not my heart. I suppose it's all connected.
I've been out for 5 years -- not that long really. I was in for 14. It's kind of scary to realize that I've not dealt yet because to me that means I'm going to start dealing with it. . . .
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Belle
Excellent, WordWolf! Thank you!
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Allan
Maybe if you delete 'try not to be accussatory, viscious or rude in your postings' your statement might be a bit more honest.
Oh and how about adding 'if you disagree with some of us or happen to mention you still believe some of the stuff taught in twi you will be ridiculed, flamed etcc..
That would be more honest Wordwolf.
I know 'Waydale' and the earlier version of 'greasespot' helped a lot of 'innies' to leave but I wonder if the current 'mood' of this forum would actually help people decide to stay !!
You know..might as well stay in der Vey and be criticized, ridiculed, picked on etc.. and then at least they wouldn't have to listen to paganistic,atheistic diatribe.
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Goey
Posted by Alan:
Care to explain?Pointing out a logical flaw, or showing something to be false that was presented as at fact is not being viscious or accusatory. It is a part of the debate process. However, certain folks will almost always cry fowl when their ideas are challenged.
Actually it would be quite dishonest for the most part. Many of us here still believe "some of the stuff taught in TWI", yet we are not flamed or ridiculed for the most part. Disagreement here can, (but does not always) lead to "ridicule and flaming". Some folks know how to disagree politly, others admittedy need to grow up a bit here. However, there always seems to be that small element here, that accuses other of flaming and ridicule when they are simply being challened on their ideas. Can't help that.
It seems that where the so-called ridicule and flaming comes in, is when some folks assess TWI by their own particular experience and deny the experiences of others as if they never happened.
It happens when folks deny, gloss-over, or minimize the clearly documented offenses of TWI and its leaders, just because they think they were "blessed" by those same leaders.
It happens when folks deny the hard facts of the abuses that happened to many and then call the fact-bearers liars -- or even worse, blame the victims for the evil done to them at the hands of their heros. This will almost certainly bring on the "ridicule and flaming".
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Belle
sometimes, too, the way things are worded - regardless of position - will generate so called flaming or perhaps less than cordial comments. It's easier to get people to listen to your position or to seriously consider one's position when spoken politely and from an informed, unemotional position than as an attack or as if one is looking for a fight or "daring" someone to disagree.
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jewel
Hello again WordWolf. I posted on another threat today in answer to some things you had said to me. I just read your suggestions for new posters and thank you for all the great information and the path to find out more. I guess what I don't understand is why TWI would even care what is said here. They haven't any power over those of us who have left and know in their hearts it was the right thing to do. What can they do to me or anyone else now that we are gone? This is an honest question because I just don't understand. I believe many things you have stated about TWI and the debauchery it was and probably still is. But why would they care about those of us on this forum who have left and most of us left with a bad taste in our mouth. I would think they would just write us off to the devil (according to their doctrine) Should I go back and read the links you suggested? Jewel , a new poster
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Sunny1
Hello, WordWolf.
It sounds like a lot of people don't know just how evil The Way is.
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Allan
I think they do know how much evil was/is associated with twi,they might not be aware of just how much evil is just outside of twi as well, better to give them a balanced view I say.
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WordWolf
True.
To a degree, it's perfectly understandable.
Some of it just sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud-
until you look at dozens and dozens of eyewitness accounts.
vpw did such a complete job of controlling information (before the
internet) that it was almost impossible to think of him as anything
OTHER than "the next man of God to rise up after Paul's death"
("the Way:Living in Love", page 43.)
wierwille hid all his sources, then lied and said he had a special
connection from God and that's where he got such fantastic material.
He put forth that it was the result of "research and teaching for
30 years" ("the Way:Living in Love, page-34) rather than a handful of
ORIGINAL writers whose work he cobbled together. The purpose of doing
THAT was to inflate himself and elevate himself to that position.
His GOAL was for everyone to think he was far above all other
Christians, and only HIS group had "The Truth".
That way, when it came to evil things,
A) It was hard to believe such a "godly" man could sin so greatly
(Well, it was based on the false impression that he was a
"godly man" based on the knowledge he supposedly originated.)
B) he was able to use a veneer of godliness to confuse people and get
some to think that God was all right with him sinning
At first, it sounds ridiculous to hear of incidents of exhibitionism
by him, acts of rape, drugging THEN raping women, rationalizing
adultery in his own life, and so on. It's only after account after
account pile up that the weight of the evidence becomes inexorable.
It's not as ridiculous to examine his chain-smoking, his chronic
alcoholism, and his love of luxuries both at hq and when travelling,
and see that they DON'T paint a picture of a humble servant of God.
It's even sicker to realize that he's not even original, and other
conmen have abused the office of Leader among Christians to cover
despicable acts. lcm didn't come out of nowhere and just started
raping women-he was indoctrinated and trained by vpw, who chose him
as his successor for the sole reason of his LOYALTY to vpw
(which explains why he lacks any leadership ability). lcm was not
WORSE than vpw-he was just worse at covering his tracks.
========
Jewel?
Those are good questions, and there are a few answers.
The "WayGB" are concerned with what we say here for many reasons.
First of all, people who are still in sometimes post, and the WayGB
is fixated on uncovering their identities. Second, they resent that
they are unable to control information that is posted here. Sometimes,
things happen that they want hidden away, but that information gets
posted here for the whole world to see.
Posts here and other websites were the main reason twi had to make
lcm VANISH, and not simply keep him as "Head of the Research Dept"
after he was found guilty of crimes.
Posts here and other websites have fueled lawsuits.
Posts here and other websites broke the news when twi decided to
stick Mrs Wierwille in a nursing home, and ignore all committments
they had to her. That one was SUCH a public relations nightmare that
they insisted-after years of telling people to stay away from the
GSC- that their side of that story be posted here as well.
This was, in essence, an admission that their own members get MORE
news HERE than thru twi official news channels.
twi would LOVE to see us all silenced tomorrow.
When people nowadays want information, they go online.
When they hear of twi, they look and find US.
The information here helps them stay wary or clear, which denies
twi the chance to sneak up and trick them. This helps maintain
"negative growth" in twi, which has been the status quo since at least
1989.
As to them knowing what is right in their hearts, I doubt they do.
Remember, your heart contains what you place in it.
They've been feeding their hearts on a steady diet of twi propaganda
and never trying any other "food". So, their consciences are
severely malnourished.
Yes, I would recommend reading all the links.
I would also recommend reading ALL the documents and editorials
on this site, even if it takes a YEAR. It's worth having all the
information.
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WordWolf
They've only scratched the surface.
I'm sure it's news to you that all entrants to the way corps
were required to write an autobiography called
"From Birth to the Corps."
Actually, THAT part is common knowledge.
What was NOT common knowledge was the 2 uses to which they were
put.
A) vpw marked those women with histories of surviving abuse-
since abuse survivors make easier victims for future predators-
and THOSE women were targeted for molestation, rape, etc
by him
B) when people left twi, those "confidential" papers were
dug out, and used as "proof" the person had "backslidden
into old sins" rather than escaping because twi was evil.
Most people have NO IDEA twi has done these things, at the
directive of vpw and others.
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Ham
Yep. Sounds like the Curse of loy.. "Won't take my word for it? Just GO out there, just go and look. There is NOTHING godly or worthwhile, and things out there are just so darn EVIL... the WHOLE WORLD STINKS. Go ahead and GO. But don't say I didn't warn you about all the devils, beasts, and wild animals that await you.. "
That little tirade made MOST people afraid to go and even look..
I can outline evil for you fellow.
Almost ten years out of this stinking, opressive outfit, and the effects are just now starting to wear off.
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Belle
p.s. This is not a Christian forum. All are allowed, encouraged and appreciated for sharing their opinion or point of view. Expect to have those opinions and points of view challenged, questioned and/or discussed. However, sometimes we have to agree to disagree. :)-->
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Ham
I don't think that's too far off the beaten track..
May be helpful for those who "just got here".
Really. You're not gonna be a greasespot by midnight or anything..
All those tirades mean NOTHING.
Like voodoo, the only way they can effect you is if you believe them.
Sure, the world isn't paradise on earth or anything, but even the "devils" are friendlier than the leadership I left behind in TWI.
Case in point:
Same argument. "Stay, and put up with our junk for getting a few blessings, or just go out with 'them'"
Personally, I'd listen to paganistic, atheistic diatribe over that junk any day of the week..
its gotta be bad when the "unbelievers" make more sense.
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rascal
ROFLMAO!
I am telling you that very few of the churches and religious organizations that we were taught to abhor....will hurt you like twi.
I personally do not think that the greatness of the word they teach amounts to much .... when evil flourishes so rampantly in that group.
Give me honest fellowship with my ignorant (according to twi) any day :-)
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jewel
Thanks WordWolf for your answer. I did not realize that there would be people still in TWI that would come and read the posts here. I would think they may think the devil would just jump right out of the computer and get them. So why do they stay in TWI? I can only think TWI attracts people who want to be better than anyone else. (maybe like the "Church Lady" on Saturday Night Live) To tell you the truth I had to come to grips with that myself, after I left. I liked knowing "the truth" more than anyone else. It is a big ego trip to think you have the cornerstone on the truth. I do know some people stay because of fear and that is so sad. So GS is living proof to those still in that there is life after TWI. God help those still in. Jewel
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rascal
Amen Jewel, We ARE proof that life is good outside of the walls of twi:-)
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Allan
Agree to all of that as long as readers have an idea what kind of people are posting..
Maybe we could start off our posts like.."Hi, my name is Allan, I'm a Christian" or "Hi, my name is Rascal and I'm a Pagan" or "Hi, my name is Bramble and I'm a Wicca (witch), or "Hi, my name is Cool Waters and I'm a New-Ager" just thinking, it might help ??
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Belle
Help in what way? So that people can be pre-judged and have the GSpot version of a nametag? So that people can be pigeon-holed into a single classification and be automatically discredited on whatever they say regardless of the topic just because of a classification?
GSPOT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN FORUM! Someone's path after TWI is in no way relevant to their comments on their experience in TWI. It also in no way discredits them and, in many cases, is totally irrelevant to the conversation.
How else do you want us to label ourselves? Want us to tell our sexual orientation? Our race? Our heritage? Our education level? Our occupation? Our shoe size?
I would like to think we're no longer as small-minded as we were while in TWI. I would also like to think it's enlightening and a good exercise to listen to and allow others' points of view, experiences, beliefs and thoughts.
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Nottawayfer
As someone who was enlightened by GSC, I can say that a lot of things I found out helped me to exit twi.
I started posting as an innie in October 2002. Ironically I started posting after chastising my innie boyfriend (ex BF now) at the time for even reading GSC. He came to my house for lunch one day telling me all kinds of things he read and how F'd up twi is. This was based on things he read in GSC.
It must have stirred my curiousity because I had only read GSC a little after I left HQ. I never dared to read it while on Staff because someone would have caught me since the only internet available was at the local libraries. At that time, I thought posters were a bunch of disgruntled people who would say anything. Because of the ex-boyfriend, I started to read GSC once again. Then more things happened in my life because of twi which started to make me question my involvement. The control they were trying to take over my personal life was a HUGE issue for me. I started searching back in my mind the past 20 years of my involvement with twi to determine if it had been as rosy as I had been led to believe. NO! It wasn't!!!
I made a decision that the ACS 2002 would be my decision-making moment with my future of twi. That trip was a huge waste of money! It was re-hashed crap which had already been taught and then presented to advanced class grads. Any newbie could have been there. It showed me twi was not growing. Making a decision to leave was an emotional time for me. I tried to talk myself out of leaving. I got into many discussions with GSers about it. I even got mad and told GSers they dwelling in their sorrow and that I was done posting. But then reality set in for me. I was STILL involved in a group trying to take over my life! I continued to read GSC even though I didn't post.
Someone posted that they had information for me. I emailed them, and the rest is history. The email helped me to make my decision. It helped me to realize that I was unhappy and living a lie. No abundance, no real happiness, no harmony, nothing they promised on the green card. Sure, I could have been just as unhappy in any church, but I was in a group who deemed themselves THE ONLY ONE WITH THE TRUTH! How does that truth fit in with all of the practical errors over the years? This was a huge turning point for me.
Thanks to GSC I left the first week of December 2002! GSC is not a perfect place either, but it does help people to see the reality of a terrible organization which calls itself godly.
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Goey
Alan, that was truly uncalled for. You don't act very "Christian" to me. From one Christian to another, I would much rather hang out with the so called pagans, witches and new agers than with you.
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BikerBabe
Hi, my nick is BikerBabe, I'm a brat.
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jewel
Hey BikerBabe, We are all brats, that's why we need a Saviour. Jewel
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Bramble
Allan, this is not a Christian forum, it is an ex Way forum. Not all ex Way are Christian, but they can still speak about thier experiences in TWI. If Pawtucket wants the non Christians to leave, he can say so. It is his forum.
If you click on names you can read profiles--that may tell you about the person.
Rascal, as far as I know, is Christian, but with you around, you just might steer her my way. The anti witness--turning people off from your faith..
If being on a message board with non Christians is so horrifying, maybe you could join one of the all Christian ex Way forums, or start your own.
Someone not Christian is not automatically eeeviiilll. Just as someone who is Christian is not automatically good.
Since I've never been involved in, say, the prison system, or with drug dealers or violent gang members, my closest brush with evil folk has been some experiences I've had with Way Leaders.
Edited for clarity, my bad.
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Allan
I don't think I've ever said non-Christians are evil but I might tend to think that someone who believes they are an 'anti-witness' has some serious 'spiritual issues' ?!
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