It's cool, Allan. Most folks who come in here go through stages. A common early stage is to defend the doctrine, our "Father in the Word" etc. Most grow out of this stage, except perhaps oldiesman. Many go through an angry stage. Then you have us Waydale/Greasespot oldtimers who've mellowed. I'm not ****** at all any more. I'm actually thankful for my time in that cult, even though they didn't teach the truth.
Wordwolf said.. happened in the 70's, 80's,so we're talking stuff that happened 25, 30 years ago ??!!
Sorry, no wonder it was 'misconstrued'
Hope those 'humane societies' are helping !!
Allan, it sounds like you think rascal hasn't healed as fast as you think she should've. Its not your call. Everyone heals in their own time, even if you think its been long enough.
God is everywhere, so yes I believe that God was with me even when I was part of twi. Does that mean that I still believe that God led me there or that God was behind what was going on? Just because God was with me and us ("for he hath said "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee") does not mean that God was involved with twi. There is a big difference!
quote:
Why did evil happen to some ?
Because they were too weak to say f**k off or at least, NO.
And yes, I do know people that did that.
What I would like to know is why we don't hear more from those people ?
Is this the post for people to expound how they said f**k off? Or would that be misconstrued into one person telling another that you're not as good as me because I am stronger (better, more blessed) than you! Why would anyone want elevate themselves by casting others down?
For some reason you seem to take offense at all of what rascal has said, maybe you should read it again. And if rascal is questioning God on His involvement in twi, and it doesn't seem she is, then I think God can handle the questions. Heck, she might even get an answer! She isn't the first person to question God and she won't be the last. And I don't believe that God gets mad at us or counts it against us because we question.
Because they were too weak to say f**k off or at least, NO.
BECAUSE MANY OF THEM WERE CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 10.
quote:
And yes, I do know people that did that.
What I would like to know is why we don't hear more from those people ?
BECAUSE THESE NOW-GROWN CHILDREN ARE SPENDING ALL OF THEIR TIME, THEIR ENERGIES, THEIR LIVES LIVING DAY-TO-DAY WITH THE MEMORIES OF BEING RAPED AND WORSE BY 'MEN OF GOD'.
Then you better let Wordwolf know, he 'analyzed' that you were referring to the 70's, 80's.
God had to have been involved in twi, at least(and read my words) to some enth degree because there were MANY blessings, healings etc..
and maybe not so much involved in twi(God) but BELIEVERS within twi.
I don't see in the scriptures where God establishes, honors, or favors a particular organization or church (such as TWI). Aside possibly from special interventions, He was "involved" in TWI to the extent that individuals allowed Him to be involved in their lives.
It is difficult for God to bless an organization as a whole when its leaders and followers have differing agendas - for the first, power, sex, money, etc and for the many of the others the things of God. God must then work within individuals not the corrupt organization. TWI was many times more of a hindrance to God's blessings than a facilitator.
TWI was and still is a corporate organization that separated itself and its followers from mainstream Christianity. While the individuals were and are members of the Body Of Christ - I doubt that the The Way International Inc. ever held or holds now any kind of place in the Body of Christ itself.
God blesses whom HE blesses and heals whom he heals regardless of the religious affiliation of those involved. Followers of TWI got no special blessings just because they were followers of TWI.
My point is that we should give honor and credit to God, not to organizations and corporations like TWI.
quote:
Why did evil happen to some ?
Because they were too weak to say f**k off or at least, NO.
And yes, I do know people that did that.
What I would like to know is why we don't hear more from those people?
I will agree that "some" were too weak to say no. So what? Apart from the bigger picture though, this hints of blaming the weak for the offenses of the "strong". Pointing out the weakness of some does not exonerate those who led these weak ones into sin and evil, while claiming to be spiritual leaders. Weakness is not a sin. Preying upon the weak is regardless of how much "hot word" they taught on the side. It is even more so a sin when the predators come in the name of God and His Word.
and yes, some people were slow to 'wake up'to the evil in twi and 'believe God' to move out,as soon as we saw the crap going on at Indiana campus we 'checked out', were going to walk out through the front doors and onto a greyhound bus.
Actually,I was threatened with being thrown from stone hall 3rd level window if I said anything to anyone before we left.
No way was I blaming the weak for the offenses of the strong, no way, that is your 'interpretation'.
Oh really now ... let's look again at what your wrote. Here it is:
quote:
Why did evil happen to some ?
Because they were too weak to say f**k off or at least, NO.
Here your clearly stated that evil happend to some folks because they were too weak to say F. O. or to say no. Say it to whom? I assume, based upon the context of this thread, that it would be TWI's minions (disguised as spiritual leaders.)
Allan, you gave no other reason than the victims own weakness. Nothing. So, by pointing out the weakness of those harmed as the reason, and ommiting mention of those who perpetrated the evil, you clearly implied that the cause/reason is soley due to the weakness of the ones harmed. This is not "my interpretation" - it is what you wrote.
No where at all did you state, or imply there there is any other reason than the harmed ones weakness.
Now you say,
quote:
No way was I blaming the weak for the offenses of the strong, no way, that is your 'interpretation'.
Alan, how then was it not blaming the weak for the offenses of the "strong"? And what then was your point if you were not doing that.
I have wondered if it is good to crap and get it out or stop the leakage.
Unseemly analogy perhaps, but then, the functions of the Body often get messy.
...and as for qualification...I'd like to praise God in some manner not having to be be okayed by the masses and I often curse...lol...period. For me, again...for me, where God was with me, in TWI (a 1,000 yrs. ago already) and post TWI (altho that is not how I catalog my life) is a question still considered.
Absolutely Goey, I do not understand why blaming someone for being weak, seems to mitigate the evil of the Villain in some peoples minds....
We were WEAK because we believed the scriptures that these men taught us.
We were weak because we trusted the men who taught us the scriptures...
We were taught from the scriptures that we must obey leadership first time every time IF we wanted to be doulos.
We were taught from the scriptures that leaving the protection of the household would result in calamity and death.
We were taught that lack of compliance with leaders meant that we were stiff necked and would not recieve the things of God...
We were taught that it was an honor to service the mog and that to refuse would mean we weren`t *spiritual* enuff to handle it....
We were taught that we must abort our children if they interfered with our commitment to twi.
Damn RIGHT we were weak!!!!
THEY weakened us, stripped away our defenses subtly, gradually, us unaware of the danger because the predations were made with scriptural back up....
We did what we had been taught that GOD required of us.... bitterly hating it, desperatly trying to renew our minds so as not to listen to our 5 senses or emotions and change our minds and dissapoint God....let down the ministry that taught us God`s word, and betray the trust of our brothers and sisters...
Our love for God and desire to serve him was the tool that was utilized to weaken us to the point of being vulnerable for these unscrupulous bastards.
No problem Oak I did not agree with some of the things Rascal posted too. I do take into consideration that they were spoken to those of Christian beliefs/or were supposed to be anyway so I would not expect you to consider them truth.
Doesn`t matter if you agree or not....everything I listed WAS taught IN twi, and was responsible in large part for our willingness to endure that which we detested.
That in and of itself wouldn`t have been so bad, had it REALLY been what God required of us.
But it was what twi wanted, and in order to get it...they played the *God* card.
I dont know what to tell you Rascal. I don't have an answer really why some people believed their speel and some did not. For me and I can only speak for me, it did not make sense I saw that it was an attempt to cause fear in my life. I learned that from the Bible and Way teachings. So when those statements did not line up with scripture they had to go. It was a simple choice for me.
One thing I have observed here is that a large number of people have indicated that they followed leaders to some extent that was also true for me but only to the extent that I beilieved that they were speaking truth. I agree there was a temptation to just follow leaders but in cases where I did that, I also feel I must accept the results for that. I was taught better and I knew better But I failed to check it with the scriptures. That was my responsibility no matter how convincing they sounded.
Some of it I think depends on when you were involved. I don't think that those past the 80s had any foundation to rely on really. Another words I have noticed that the foundation that I feel I received to check things with the scripture was all but gone. Perhaps that is the differance why some stayed. Sometimes I wonder if many ever realy took to heart the teachings to search the scriptures. For years I thought that just could not be true. But the more I look and listen to peoples words though shocked I think maybe it is true.
So when I heard their fear motivations like:
We were taught from the scriptures that leaving the protection of the household would result in calamity and death.
it was almost laughable. Because scripture told me otherwise. In the 70s we used to say On Guard from the (dealing with the Adv. Class)when something was not true. I just grew up that way in the Word I suppose so later on it was automatic to think that way I guess. It has nothing to do with smart or stupid just what you established as your habit . I remember sitting at my desk when the famous stand with us Corps letters came and going through each line and looking up in the Bible and making a note beside each error and I addressed each one in my reply to Craig.
I've been round and round with some of the CFF folks about this same issue. I guess I just thought everybody checked things it was so basic. It was very shocking to see that some of them stayed around.
These were the same people cheering the way we were being treated and would have helped remove us from the grounds,until it came their turn then they had a different view. So the tough question.... was it a choice a scripture based decision to leave or was it just that they got **** on and had to?
This much I do know I am very thankful to God that I was given the chance to learn these important lesons for life and that somehow despite myself I seem to have grasped them at least some of them.....
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Allan
Which tells me also that as soon as people 'rose up' in twi and stood up God whisked them out of there pretty smartly !!
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Ham
Some, seemingly so. Others were not so "lucky"- they were left behind to be beat into submission..
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TheEvan
It's cool, Allan. Most folks who come in here go through stages. A common early stage is to defend the doctrine, our "Father in the Word" etc. Most grow out of this stage, except perhaps oldiesman. Many go through an angry stage. Then you have us Waydale/Greasespot oldtimers who've mellowed. I'm not ****** at all any more. I'm actually thankful for my time in that cult, even though they didn't teach the truth.
It's cool.
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gc
Allan said:
Allan, it sounds like you think rascal hasn't healed as fast as you think she should've. Its not your call. Everyone heals in their own time, even if you think its been long enough.
God is everywhere, so yes I believe that God was with me even when I was part of twi. Does that mean that I still believe that God led me there or that God was behind what was going on? Just because God was with me and us ("for he hath said "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee") does not mean that God was involved with twi. There is a big difference!
Is this the post for people to expound how they said f**k off? Or would that be misconstrued into one person telling another that you're not as good as me because I am stronger (better, more blessed) than you! Why would anyone want elevate themselves by casting others down?
For some reason you seem to take offense at all of what rascal has said, maybe you should read it again. And if rascal is questioning God on His involvement in twi, and it doesn't seem she is, then I think God can handle the questions. Heck, she might even get an answer! She isn't the first person to question God and she won't be the last. And I don't believe that God gets mad at us or counts it against us because we question.
gc
:)-->
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CoolWaters
BECAUSE MANY OF THEM WERE CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 10.
BECAUSE THESE NOW-GROWN CHILDREN ARE SPENDING ALL OF THEIR TIME, THEIR ENERGIES, THEIR LIVES LIVING DAY-TO-DAY WITH THE MEMORIES OF BEING RAPED AND WORSE BY 'MEN OF GOD'.
How dare you.
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rascal
Gosh gc, you have a knack for being able to cut through all of the confusion straight to the heart of a matter....
Your comment about God being WITH us while in twi, but not necessarily OF twi is sounding off bells and whistlles for me right now....
This fits in with what the rest of you have been saying.....
This would make it possible to praise God and still curse twi.
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Goey
Posted by Alan:
I don't see in the scriptures where God establishes, honors, or favors a particular organization or church (such as TWI). Aside possibly from special interventions, He was "involved" in TWI to the extent that individuals allowed Him to be involved in their lives.
It is difficult for God to bless an organization as a whole when its leaders and followers have differing agendas - for the first, power, sex, money, etc and for the many of the others the things of God. God must then work within individuals not the corrupt organization. TWI was many times more of a hindrance to God's blessings than a facilitator.
TWI was and still is a corporate organization that separated itself and its followers from mainstream Christianity. While the individuals were and are members of the Body Of Christ - I doubt that the The Way International Inc. ever held or holds now any kind of place in the Body of Christ itself.
God blesses whom HE blesses and heals whom he heals regardless of the religious affiliation of those involved. Followers of TWI got no special blessings just because they were followers of TWI.
My point is that we should give honor and credit to God, not to organizations and corporations like TWI.
I will agree that "some" were too weak to say no. So what? Apart from the bigger picture though, this hints of blaming the weak for the offenses of the "strong". Pointing out the weakness of some does not exonerate those who led these weak ones into sin and evil, while claiming to be spiritual leaders. Weakness is not a sin. Preying upon the weak is regardless of how much "hot word" they taught on the side. It is even more so a sin when the predators come in the name of God and His Word.
Time for some prospective Alan.
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Allan
No way was I blaming the weak for the offenses of the strong, no way, that is your 'interpretation'.
I was asked a question and I replied what I believe and quite frankly,the facts back it up.
When people finally got sick of the b/s or angry or whatever God moved to get them out, of that I'm sure.
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Oakspear
Your god was kinda slow for a lot of folks
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Oakspear
Maybe I'm just dissitating
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Allan
yeah..you're disitating !
and yes, some people were slow to 'wake up'to the evil in twi and 'believe God' to move out,as soon as we saw the crap going on at Indiana campus we 'checked out', were going to walk out through the front doors and onto a greyhound bus.
Actually,I was threatened with being thrown from stone hall 3rd level window if I said anything to anyone before we left.
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rascal
I don`t think he gives a damn cw. To acknowledge sexually assaulted children by twi leaders, would sully his sanitized little world.
Allan, come on....do you really think that God led you to a place where they threatened to throw you out of a window if you talked to some one?
These people that threatened you do no deserve your praise or their actions laid at God`s feet.
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MATILDA
Bllleeeeeech.
Pass the Pepto.
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rascal
errr care to qualify those sentiments Matilda?
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Goey
Oh really now ... let's look again at what your wrote. Here it is:
Here your clearly stated that evil happend to some folks because they were too weak to say F. O. or to say no. Say it to whom? I assume, based upon the context of this thread, that it would be TWI's minions (disguised as spiritual leaders.)
Allan, you gave no other reason than the victims own weakness. Nothing. So, by pointing out the weakness of those harmed as the reason, and ommiting mention of those who perpetrated the evil, you clearly implied that the cause/reason is soley due to the weakness of the ones harmed. This is not "my interpretation" - it is what you wrote.
No where at all did you state, or imply there there is any other reason than the harmed ones weakness.
Now you say,
Alan, how then was it not blaming the weak for the offenses of the "strong"? And what then was your point if you were not doing that.
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MATILDA
Immodium.
I have wondered if it is good to crap and get it out or stop the leakage.
Unseemly analogy perhaps, but then, the functions of the Body often get messy.
...and as for qualification...I'd like to praise God in some manner not having to be be okayed by the masses and I often curse...lol...period. For me, again...for me, where God was with me, in TWI (a 1,000 yrs. ago already) and post TWI (altho that is not how I catalog my life) is a question still considered.
X
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rascal
Absolutely Goey, I do not understand why blaming someone for being weak, seems to mitigate the evil of the Villain in some peoples minds....
We were WEAK because we believed the scriptures that these men taught us.
We were weak because we trusted the men who taught us the scriptures...
We were taught from the scriptures that we must obey leadership first time every time IF we wanted to be doulos.
We were taught from the scriptures that leaving the protection of the household would result in calamity and death.
We were taught that lack of compliance with leaders meant that we were stiff necked and would not recieve the things of God...
We were taught that it was an honor to service the mog and that to refuse would mean we weren`t *spiritual* enuff to handle it....
We were taught that we must abort our children if they interfered with our commitment to twi.
Damn RIGHT we were weak!!!!
THEY weakened us, stripped away our defenses subtly, gradually, us unaware of the danger because the predations were made with scriptural back up....
We did what we had been taught that GOD required of us.... bitterly hating it, desperatly trying to renew our minds so as not to listen to our 5 senses or emotions and change our minds and dissapoint God....let down the ministry that taught us God`s word, and betray the trust of our brothers and sisters...
Our love for God and desire to serve him was the tool that was utilized to weaken us to the point of being vulnerable for these unscrupulous bastards.
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WhiteDove
Just to be fair and balanced here are some other things we were taught....
If I seek truth from other sources other than God and His righteousness,I will only get ignorance. All true knowledge comes from God.
The Master key to understanding God's Word is Jesus Christ.
No man or woman is really very strong in themselves. Men and Women have to get their strength from God and His Word.
Don't become fossilized in systems.
Do what God tells you to do and not what people think you should do.
Our first responsibility as believers is not in serving God,but in knowing Him as our heavenly father.
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rascal
Oh well THAT makes all of the lies taught ok then...
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WhiteDove
I would not agree with your assesment but if you want to believe that it's a free country.
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Oakspear
If I seek truth from other sources other than God and His righteousness,I will only get ignorance. All true knowledge comes from God.
I disagree
The Master key to understanding God's Word is Jesus Christ.
I disagree
No man or woman is really very strong in themselves. Men and Women have to get their strength from God and His Word.
I disagree
Don't become fossilized in systems.
I agree, but this isn't really what TWI taught - or rather, their mouths said it, but their actions and what they expected of us disn't
Do what God tells you to do and not what people think you should do.
I disagree, don't do either
Our first responsibility as believers is not in serving God,but in knowing Him as our heavenly father
I would say that the latter is better than the former, but don't quite buy i
and I disagree, not with the assertion that TWI taught these things, but that they are true
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WhiteDove
No problem Oak I did not agree with some of the things Rascal posted too. I do take into consideration that they were spoken to those of Christian beliefs/or were supposed to be anyway so I would not expect you to consider them truth.
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rascal
Doesn`t matter if you agree or not....everything I listed WAS taught IN twi, and was responsible in large part for our willingness to endure that which we detested.
That in and of itself wouldn`t have been so bad, had it REALLY been what God required of us.
But it was what twi wanted, and in order to get it...they played the *God* card.
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WhiteDove
I dont know what to tell you Rascal. I don't have an answer really why some people believed their speel and some did not. For me and I can only speak for me, it did not make sense I saw that it was an attempt to cause fear in my life. I learned that from the Bible and Way teachings. So when those statements did not line up with scripture they had to go. It was a simple choice for me.
One thing I have observed here is that a large number of people have indicated that they followed leaders to some extent that was also true for me but only to the extent that I beilieved that they were speaking truth. I agree there was a temptation to just follow leaders but in cases where I did that, I also feel I must accept the results for that. I was taught better and I knew better But I failed to check it with the scriptures. That was my responsibility no matter how convincing they sounded.
Some of it I think depends on when you were involved. I don't think that those past the 80s had any foundation to rely on really. Another words I have noticed that the foundation that I feel I received to check things with the scripture was all but gone. Perhaps that is the differance why some stayed. Sometimes I wonder if many ever realy took to heart the teachings to search the scriptures. For years I thought that just could not be true. But the more I look and listen to peoples words though shocked I think maybe it is true.
So when I heard their fear motivations like:
We were taught from the scriptures that leaving the protection of the household would result in calamity and death.
it was almost laughable. Because scripture told me otherwise. In the 70s we used to say On Guard from the (dealing with the Adv. Class)when something was not true. I just grew up that way in the Word I suppose so later on it was automatic to think that way I guess. It has nothing to do with smart or stupid just what you established as your habit . I remember sitting at my desk when the famous stand with us Corps letters came and going through each line and looking up in the Bible and making a note beside each error and I addressed each one in my reply to Craig.
I've been round and round with some of the CFF folks about this same issue. I guess I just thought everybody checked things it was so basic. It was very shocking to see that some of them stayed around.
These were the same people cheering the way we were being treated and would have helped remove us from the grounds,until it came their turn then they had a different view. So the tough question.... was it a choice a scripture based decision to leave or was it just that they got **** on and had to?
This much I do know I am very thankful to God that I was given the chance to learn these important lesons for life and that somehow despite myself I seem to have grasped them at least some of them.....
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