Rascal..if thats' what you reallyyyy meant maybe you should have said 'NO' at the end of the thread ?
Rascal's question was obviously a rhetorical one with an obvious "no" answer. A rhetorical question with an obvious answer is a figure of speech that puts even more emphasis on the answer than saying it outright. You should know this stuff if you ever studied PFAL...
The fact that you missed an obvious point as it flew over your head is no reason to ask others to dumb down their communication style.
And it may be despicable- but so is labelling my friend Rascal as some kind of blasphemer of God Almighty at every turn- because of some kind of religious knee-jerk reaction to an HONEST question.
I find myself in Rascal's corner. The more evil I learn about that was just swept under the rug in that hell hole, I find I have to re-examine practically everything. "How could God support that joint" is a valid question, at least in my opinion.
No wonder not much really happened, at least as far as the miraculous is concerned, after 1972 or so..
Maybe God really did pull out of that joint, after all..
How can God be thanked for a ministry that destroyed peoples lives?
...
Even if a person enjoyed their involvement in twi....How can one thank God once you are aware that while you were having fun....these people you are thanking God for were so callously abusing and betraying the trust ....
...
Could God really be responsible does he really deserve praise for such devistation wrought in his name?
These questions really transcend the twi experience and may be summed up with one question. i.e., why does God allow evil to exist?
Best answers I ever got to this question were taught in PFAL. :)-->
How can God be thanked for a ministry that destroyed peoples lives?
Even if a person enjoyed their involvement in twi....How can one thank God once you are aware that while you were having fun....these people you are thanking God for were so callously abusing and betraying the trust ....
Could God really be responsible does he really deserve praise for such devastation wrought in his name?
These questions really transcend the twi experience and may be summed up with one question. i.e., why does God allow evil to exist?
Best answers I ever got to this question were taught in PFAL.
Yes, we all know how much you learned there.
I learned quite a few things there myself.
Of course, we both could have learned this MANY OTHER PLACES,
and relatively FEW of those places were or are run by leaders who callously abuse and betray
the trust of their followers, and relatively FEW of them have leaders who plan and execute
evil, and excuse it by slapping a Christian label on their actions,
or claim God approves-or at least does not DISapprove of their evil deeds.
I understand that the subject matter of this thread offends you Allan....it really ought to.
Some really ugly things happened to myself and friends of mine while involved....
I cannot reconcile what happened with a loving God who leads us and guides ....
You believe that God led you there and you recieved great blessings....great...how can you explain why those who were destroyed were there?
If God led you then does that means he ALSO led those others who were treated so badly??
I can see him now....*Come here kiddo, come learn about me..your gonna get you foot kicked, your heart broken, your lives wasted....but these other folks are gonna have a good time....so it really is ok*....
Did God only lead some of us to be blessed ???? Were those who were mistreated not supposed to come?
Seems like a mighty poor recomendation for christianity.....
The other option as I see it.... is that POSSIBLY .... none of us were led.. could we have been lured and decieved,
If so, that doesn`t sound like something a loving God would be responible for...
It all goes back to my question of ...No matter HOW much I enjoyed my involvement in twi... should I be praising and thanking God as the one responsible ..... when involvement with the exact same people was so detrimental to someone else?
It just seems wrong to lay the responsibility on God.
so we're talking stuff that happened 25, 30 years ago ??!!
Sorry, no wonder it was 'misconstrued'
Hope those 'humane societies' are helping !!
And one can tell by the 'tone' of the threads what Rascal and others think of God, Christianity, fellowships etc.. which is fine but just remember..this IS an 'open forum'.
There is another alternative- the "blessings" were a carefully crafted illusion. Sure, the teachings made me feel warm, fuzzy and happy (well, maybe before loy-butt got more of his hands in the pudding..) but in a practical sense, how much difference did involvement REALLY make?
Yeah, yeah- I know a few greek words now, I know where all the books of the bible are, I made a few friends- but couldn't I have gotten the same "benefits" ELSEWHERE, and at far less cost?
I have seen people far more "blessed" after camping in the woods for a week, or spending time with a hobby..
Personally, I am beginning to think that it may be easier to leave God as the prime mover out of the experience altogether.
Maybe there is a little bit of God's goodness EVERYWHERE, and somehow, TWI could not entirely claim exemption from that fact.
Perhaps they "used" just enough of God's goodness to keep people hanging on year after year, week after week- giving first ten, then fifteen, then more percent of their hard earned pay..
They carefully measured and doled it out- as if THEY owned it.
They threatened to cut it off if you did not comply with their every whim..
I think it was a slowly crafted illusion that kept us there.
In my last couple of years, even the unsuspecting, unwary new folks saw it, a mile away. No new growth. No new faces in "twig"..
Heres a thought Allan, instead of spending your effort attacking posters... how about considering the questions that are being asked......
Maybe if you have an answere I could attempt to understand your opinion on why God would lead you to be blessed in twi and lead others to get their bu tts kicked?
I saw great evil manfiested towards people who were only seeking to know God... How can God be responsible for that? Isn`t that what you say when you praise him for twi?
I know that is why I have my doubts about God`s involvement in the whole deal.
Think about looking someone right in the eye Allan....someone who`s child was sexually abused by a leader....or someone who was despicably used by vpw or the children who`s childhoods were ripped away with cruel treatment...they are all right here Allen.
Think about all of the pain that this man and his organization was directly responsible for......and then imagine how calloused it is when you say...yeah but I thank GOD for twi ......it`s like a kick in the gut....it`s like God was a part of the destruction of peoples lives.
And when I think of the thousands who got born again and s.i.t. yes, Gods' involvement at least to an 'enth degree', probably not as much as leadership thought, think.
Because they were too weak to say f**k off or at least, NO.
And yes, I do know people that did that.
What I would like to know is why we don't hear more from those people ?
Well certainly shows what kind of man you are Allan, and it isn`t pretty.
The reason folks didn`t say that was because we were told that God required this of us. Backed up with twisted scripture and support of the top ministry leaders......
To not comply meant leaving the protection of God and the household .... some of us were promised that death would occur .....
Therein lies the heinous crime.... we did what was required, as repugnant as we personally found it to be.....because the men who had earned our trust as teachers of the scriptures themselves said that God required it.
so when people argue against you it's called 'attacking posters' ?
But of couse you don't attack posters do you ?!
Hammeroni..I don't mind having a conversation with mistress of darkness, but I do ask the question now that you bring it up..is her 'nametag' a poke at humour as one who purports to love God ??
Oh, and those who said *No*? They were escorted immediatly off grounds....everyone told they were posessed and warned not to speak to them and their families in their home states were warned that they were posessed and not to believe anything they said.
Yeah I know women that this personally happened to.
What I would like to know is why we don't hear more from those people ?
Simple. We DO hear from them on this board, and I admire them- but they were a SMALL minority. The few with enough brains left over after mind numbing classes and seminars..
The few that couldn't be be arm twisted and worse, despite laying on them every motivational technique known to man..
Hooray for them.
Unfortunately, all of us weren't that smart. Or that strong.
Ah yes.. the THOUSANDS of people that got born again, and ACTUALLY spoke in tongues.
You can disagree with a post without attacking the poster Allan,
Try to address the idea and why it is not valid in your opinion.
Some of us learn by sorting through our experiences and get valuable imput from other thoughtfull posts....I have changed my preconcieved opinions inumerable times since beginning to read these forums.....
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Goey
Alan,
You posted:
Rascal's question was obviously a rhetorical one with an obvious "no" answer. A rhetorical question with an obvious answer is a figure of speech that puts even more emphasis on the answer than saying it outright. You should know this stuff if you ever studied PFAL...
The fact that you missed an obvious point as it flew over your head is no reason to ask others to dumb down their communication style.
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CoolWaters
I said that there was no truth taught in twi.
Truth + a word here and there...truth - a phrase over there...truth with a word changed over yonder...
It all adds up to one big Lie.
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WordWolf
Allan,
you really should try harder to understand the discussions we are having here.
I'll provide some examples and explanations, using this thread (with one exception).
rascal said
and you replied
Now, then,
let me explain the quote from rascal, to which you objected.
Apparently, you have forgotten the keys you learned in understanding the Bible from when
you were in twi. One of them was to keep straight the ADMINISTRATIONS, the time-frames.
What was the time-frame rascal spoke of?
The GSC posters and readersare almost entirely all extwi people. We are of different beliefs, including atheism,
paganism, Christians of every stamp, and other things I can't spell. Only a small percentage
of us are in 'cozy little fellowships'. That is NOT the current state. However, this
describes how things were back in the 70s and 80s when we were in twi and vpw was alive.
Is this describing situations nowadays? There is no Rome City campus-twisold it off. There is no Family Corps-the entire Corps nowadays graduates in numbers small
enough for the entire graduating class to fit in a Geo Metro. Lindy and Georgio are adults
now and grew up long ago. This is obviously not referring to the current state of things.
It seems to describe twi in the 70s and 80s-when there was a Rome City campus, and a
Family Corps, and Lindy and Georgio were being beaten for failing to smile convincingly
when someone sneered at them. The word "meanwhile" indicates that the events were simultaneous-or at least happening in the same 24-hour cycle.
This is ALSO not a CURRENT description. vpw hasn't taught Bible lately-hot, cold or any other temperature. He died in 1985, and he's been pretty quiet since then.
(Or have you been hearing messages from him since then, where he's been teaching you Bible?
That's the only way you can FAIRLY misunderstand the statement.)
"the teacher"-context, the man mentioned teaching:vpw, who called himself "The Teacher".
the driver is drugging a woman so vpw can rape her more easily. This has been documented as
happening in vpw's life. Since he died in 1985, I'm unaware of anyone drugging women so that
vpw can rape them. Dead men make poor rapists. Finally, the wow program was cancelled in
the mid-90s and has been past-tense for the past ten years.
So,
it should be obvious-to anyone with ANY familiarity with: vpw, the wow program, the Family
Corps, the Rome City campus- that rascal was speaking of events in the 70s and 80s, and
NOT of things CURRENT.
Your response?
We ALL know she is not involved with any 'fellowship' groups TODAY,
and she NEVER SAID SHE WAS.
Your inability to "read what is written", thus allowing the word of rascal
"to interpret itself", led you to this misunderstanding. You'll notice the rest of us had no
difficulty understanding her the first time....
As for me, I really take offense at your refusal to read what she wrote rather than what you
decided she said. She puts forth that she has a penchant for God? Looks like she's
seeking answers to some difficult questions.
Doesn't sound like she's decided she has all the answers. Doesn't sound like she's ready to
blame God for the evil actions of vpw, lcm and the others, either.
"Blaspheming God?" Where is she "blaspheming God", let alone at every opportunity?
If by "blaspheming God", you mean "embracing wildly ALL the actions vpw did", then I suppose
she's "blaspheming God." Keep in mind that this definition is not consistent with the rest
of the people who use the English language, and you are not allowed to just redefine the
language when you see fit.
You followed up by claiming she
when she said she was andTo any NORMAL reader, she was making a difference between
God and Christian values-which she has no problem with
and
a man and ministry-which she blames for much evil
but you seem unable to see the distinction.
She was not "trying to lay the blame on God".
You also said, of yourself
This is not how most people would see posts like
when making it clear that you were aiming that at rascal.Most people would consider that post "personal name calling".
Goey already beat me to explaining rascal's use of the rhetorical question.
Rhetorical questions are one of the 217 Figures of Speech Used in the Bible,
as named by EW Bullinger and taught in twi.
The figure of speech is called in latin "Interrogatio" and in the Greek "Erotesis".
NOW you can look it up in Bullinger's book.
It's in the last division: Figures involving change
affecting the application of words
6. As to Argumentation.
It is the FIRST listing in that category.
Alternately, you can look at it up in Appendix 6 of the Companion Bible.
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Ham
Allan, yes, sarcasm was intended.
Yes, I can turn into a sarcastic SOB.
And it may be despicable- but so is labelling my friend Rascal as some kind of blasphemer of God Almighty at every turn- because of some kind of religious knee-jerk reaction to an HONEST question.
I find myself in Rascal's corner. The more evil I learn about that was just swept under the rug in that hell hole, I find I have to re-examine practically everything. "How could God support that joint" is a valid question, at least in my opinion.
No wonder not much really happened, at least as far as the miraculous is concerned, after 1972 or so..
Maybe God really did pull out of that joint, after all..
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oldiesman
Best answers I ever got to this question were taught in PFAL.
:)-->
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WordWolf
Yes, we all know how much you learned there.
I learned quite a few things there myself.
Of course, we both could have learned this MANY OTHER PLACES,
and relatively FEW of those places were or are run by leaders who callously abuse and betray
the trust of their followers, and relatively FEW of them have leaders who plan and execute
evil, and excuse it by slapping a Christian label on their actions,
or claim God approves-or at least does not DISapprove of their evil deeds.
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rascal
Gentleman, thankyou for your assistance.
It becomes very frustrating to have my posts misconstrued and motives called into question....to the point of becoming completely distracted..e
Your help in keeping this thread on topic and support of attempts to express myself ..are aprecited
Thankyou all for our contributions and bearing with my efforts to understand what happned and why in twi,
I think it all relates directly to how I feel about God, christianity, my responsibility, and what I want to teach eventually teach my children.......
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rascal
I understand that the subject matter of this thread offends you Allan....it really ought to.
Some really ugly things happened to myself and friends of mine while involved....
I cannot reconcile what happened with a loving God who leads us and guides ....
You believe that God led you there and you recieved great blessings....great...how can you explain why those who were destroyed were there?
If God led you then does that means he ALSO led those others who were treated so badly??
I can see him now....*Come here kiddo, come learn about me..your gonna get you foot kicked, your heart broken, your lives wasted....but these other folks are gonna have a good time....so it really is ok*....
Did God only lead some of us to be blessed ???? Were those who were mistreated not supposed to come?
Seems like a mighty poor recomendation for christianity.....
The other option as I see it.... is that POSSIBLY .... none of us were led.. could we have been lured and decieved,
If so, that doesn`t sound like something a loving God would be responible for...
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rascal
It all goes back to my question of ...No matter HOW much I enjoyed my involvement in twi... should I be praising and thanking God as the one responsible ..... when involvement with the exact same people was so detrimental to someone else?
It just seems wrong to lay the responsibility on God.
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Allan
Wordwolf said.. happened in the 70's, 80's,
so we're talking stuff that happened 25, 30 years ago ??!!
Sorry, no wonder it was 'misconstrued'
Hope those 'humane societies' are helping !!
And one can tell by the 'tone' of the threads what Rascal and others think of God, Christianity, fellowships etc.. which is fine but just remember..this IS an 'open forum'.
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Ham
There is another alternative- the "blessings" were a carefully crafted illusion. Sure, the teachings made me feel warm, fuzzy and happy (well, maybe before loy-butt got more of his hands in the pudding..) but in a practical sense, how much difference did involvement REALLY make?
Yeah, yeah- I know a few greek words now, I know where all the books of the bible are, I made a few friends- but couldn't I have gotten the same "benefits" ELSEWHERE, and at far less cost?
I have seen people far more "blessed" after camping in the woods for a week, or spending time with a hobby..
Personally, I am beginning to think that it may be easier to leave God as the prime mover out of the experience altogether.
Maybe there is a little bit of God's goodness EVERYWHERE, and somehow, TWI could not entirely claim exemption from that fact.
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rascal
Yeah, the things I am talking about HAPPENED in the 70s 80s 90s on into 2000... the negative repercussions continue to affect us to this day.
This makes the events being discussed still relevant.
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Ham
Perhaps they "used" just enough of God's goodness to keep people hanging on year after year, week after week- giving first ten, then fifteen, then more percent of their hard earned pay..
They carefully measured and doled it out- as if THEY owned it.
They threatened to cut it off if you did not comply with their every whim..
I think it was a slowly crafted illusion that kept us there.
In my last couple of years, even the unsuspecting, unwary new folks saw it, a mile away. No new growth. No new faces in "twig"..
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rascal
Heres a thought Allan, instead of spending your effort attacking posters... how about considering the questions that are being asked......
Maybe if you have an answere I could attempt to understand your opinion on why God would lead you to be blessed in twi and lead others to get their bu tts kicked?
I saw great evil manfiested towards people who were only seeking to know God... How can God be responsible for that? Isn`t that what you say when you praise him for twi?
I know that is why I have my doubts about God`s involvement in the whole deal.
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rascal
Think about looking someone right in the eye Allan....someone who`s child was sexually abused by a leader....or someone who was despicably used by vpw or the children who`s childhoods were ripped away with cruel treatment...they are all right here Allen.
Think about all of the pain that this man and his organization was directly responsible for......and then imagine how calloused it is when you say...yeah but I thank GOD for twi ......it`s like a kick in the gut....it`s like God was a part of the destruction of peoples lives.
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Ham
Allan, maybe you don't see it, but now you're having whole conversations with "the mistress of darkness".
Cripe- you're at least on the third or fourth "step down".
One foot in the "hot place" and the other on a banana peel..
:)-->
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Allan
Then you better let Wordwolf know, he 'analyzed' that you were referring to the 70's, 80's.
God had to have been involved in twi, at least(and read my words) to some enth degree because there were MANY blessings, healings etc..
and maybe not so much involved in twi(God) but BELIEVERS within twi.
Why did evil happen to some ?
Because they were too weak to say f**k off or at least, NO.
And yes, I do know people that did that.
What I would like to know is why we don't hear more from those people ?
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Allan
And when I think of the thousands who got born again and s.i.t. yes, Gods' involvement at least to an 'enth degree', probably not as much as leadership thought, think.
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rascal
Well certainly shows what kind of man you are Allan, and it isn`t pretty.
The reason folks didn`t say that was because we were told that God required this of us. Backed up with twisted scripture and support of the top ministry leaders......
To not comply meant leaving the protection of God and the household .... some of us were promised that death would occur .....
Therein lies the heinous crime.... we did what was required, as repugnant as we personally found it to be.....because the men who had earned our trust as teachers of the scriptures themselves said that God required it.
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Allan
so when people argue against you it's called 'attacking posters' ?
But of couse you don't attack posters do you ?!
Hammeroni..I don't mind having a conversation with mistress of darkness, but I do ask the question now that you bring it up..is her 'nametag' a poke at humour as one who purports to love God ??
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rascal
Oh, and those who said *No*? They were escorted immediatly off grounds....everyone told they were posessed and warned not to speak to them and their families in their home states were warned that they were posessed and not to believe anything they said.
Yeah I know women that this personally happened to.
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Ham
Simple. We DO hear from them on this board, and I admire them- but they were a SMALL minority. The few with enough brains left over after mind numbing classes and seminars..
The few that couldn't be be arm twisted and worse, despite laying on them every motivational technique known to man..
Hooray for them.
Unfortunately, all of us weren't that smart. Or that strong.
Ah yes.. the THOUSANDS of people that got born again, and ACTUALLY spoke in tongues.
Just a drop in the bucket.
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Allan
you can assume what you want about me (and attack me all you want) but the fact remains..
remember the lepers outside their famine ravished city, "why stay we here til we die"
Common sense finally prevailed !!
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rascal
You can disagree with a post without attacking the poster Allan,
Try to address the idea and why it is not valid in your opinion.
Some of us learn by sorting through our experiences and get valuable imput from other thoughtfull posts....I have changed my preconcieved opinions inumerable times since beginning to read these forums.....
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