Very insightful.. I have been pondering this question for a very long time. Since I am new here and still "in" (officially)unofficially, I have been getting so annoyed when folks say "I just need to get my believing UP THERE" and I try to gracefully chage subject. You are right it is not "our power" but God's and if He is no Respector of People, then what? My neighbor really enlightened me on this very thing the other day.. (unaware on their part). Her back yard is undeveloped, and she said for months she was "praying for the land to not be developed". Then she realized that maybe somebody was praying for the land to be, so they could have a home....so she stoped praying for that since it was fruitless and no amount of "believing" would change that outcome...
Reminds me of two sport teams both praying to the same God to win.......who does God "bless?"
Neither, but He will work in you to do your best and help keep you from getting hurt etc...
I can go on and on. Still working this thru I tell ya.... -->
1. Being positive actually in a lot of circumstances encourages positive results..
2. Believing God does actually have a lot of merit.
I haven't thrown it away, entirely. I think I just added a little common sense.
The idea that God wants you to have your stinking hearts desire- well, it just does not make much sense to me anymore. I could innocently want something that could spell sure and sudden catastrophe to a lot of people..
And I don't think the Almighty is gonna give it to me to stroke my ego, that somehow, I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I don't rely on the infallibility of the thing anymore, either. So friggin what if I don't get exactly what I want. God is still God.. maybe I oughta just get on the right path. And in a lot of ways, I think I have.
The whole mountain thing? I think you "hit true" with what you wrote above. The example Jesus was giving them was that it was possible if needed for even a great mountain to move etc. That believing God would of course work then because to know to move a mountain would I think require that revelation from God. (?!?) Not that you can just believe for it to move, believe for the NY Rangers to win the Stanely Cup finally (my God when will they ever win? Can I pray to start favoring another team?) etcetera. I think I really agree with what you posted, interesting thoughts.
The old PFAL definition: "WHATSOEVER, means WHATSOEVER" doesn't really do much for me.
"All without distinction of what is 'promised' in the word" doesn't quite do much for me either.
Too many guarantees.
You could justify "whatsoever" to be, at least according to scripture:
The "right" to become stinking rich. Worked for Abraham, did it not?
The "right" to exercise power over the "God rejectors" and those who hate you.. (probably just annoyed..) Supposedly worked for Mordecai, Daniel, and others..
The "right" to buy anything your little heart desires- apparently worked for Solomon.
I tend to not consider any of these in the category of "whatsoever", and "guaranteed" nowadays.
I think Jesus set the record straight.
"Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."
Not that "things" are inherently bad.. or that secular fulfillment is devilish or anything.. I still think God would have us to carry out our calling, whatever it is, with joy..
But when he said "whatsoever", I don't think he had "abundance of things to possess" exactly in mind.
Perhaps when speaking to some of Jesus' contemporary Judeans (or the contemporary Christians at the time this gospel was written)the distinction was clear with the words "in prayer". In so much as it was already understood to them what you would ask in prayer and what you wouldn't. Perhaps telling the mountain to be cast into the see also had more meaning, but not so much on a spiritual level. Different peoples had different terms they were referenced by in the Bible. Perhaps "mountain" was a word used to reference the Assyrians or someone else. The sea could refernce "the abyss" or unknown, a death of sorts who knows.
As you read other non-canonical gospels you see that at times they put in subtle swipes against one of the other schools of thought expressed in another gospel.
We often read the gospels as "THE words of Jesus are in red" regardless of whether they are in red or not. We forget that they were all written long after the life of Jesus and the apostles. The hidden spiritual message may not be so spiritual at times and the letters may not be all that red.
Perhaps when speaking to some of Jesus' contemporary Judeans (or the contemporary Christians at the time this gospel was written)the distinction was clear with the words "in prayer". In so much as it was already understood to them what you would ask in prayer and what you wouldn't
Lindy, that's a very, very good point. What WOULD you ask for indeed..
I think they'd be embarrassed or worse with some of the stuff I was told I could pray for.
The PFAL thing was "and he was pointing to a literal mountain over there.."
I don't believe Jesus believed in believing. I don't think he trusted his believing to accomplish anything. I think he trusted God. I also think that "believing" and "trusting God" are two different things.
I remember the contradiction when I read Jesus' prayer about the "cup being taken from him". If the account is correct and he prayed that prayer, and since he didn't want to die that awful torurous death, then why didn't he believe for it to be accomplished another way? Taking into consideration that another scripture tells us that he had angels at his call to protect him, he very well could have.
VP explained the mountain thing in the Advanced Class differently than he did in the foundational.
In the Advanced Class, he explained the "have the believing of God" as God giving revelation concerning the removal of the mountain - if God gives you revelation that you can remove the mountain, you can say so & believe it & it will happen.
Foundational class students supposedly weren't ready for that "deeper" interpretation. They needed to be founded in believing in the principle of believing before they could move on.
I agree with the Advanced Class interpretation, but I disagree that it was deeper; it was different. The foundational interpretation was believing in believing; the advanced was believing in God's direction to individuals who believe in Him.
I also disagree with his logic about withholding the "deeper" interpretation from foundational students. He just lied to them. I'm not sure why.
I think people were hooked and reeled in with the promises of absoluteness.
"You can have anything you want, and WE can show you how.."
I wonder if the old man was crossing his fingers, hoping that the years of horse**** and mind numbing attention to details would keep us too busy to remember the former promises, when he slipped "the real deal" to us in the adv class..
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bliss
Ham,
Very insightful.. I have been pondering this question for a very long time. Since I am new here and still "in" (officially)unofficially, I have been getting so annoyed when folks say "I just need to get my believing UP THERE" and I try to gracefully chage subject. You are right it is not "our power" but God's and if He is no Respector of People, then what? My neighbor really enlightened me on this very thing the other day.. (unaware on their part). Her back yard is undeveloped, and she said for months she was "praying for the land to not be developed". Then she realized that maybe somebody was praying for the land to be, so they could have a home....so she stoped praying for that since it was fruitless and no amount of "believing" would change that outcome...
Reminds me of two sport teams both praying to the same God to win.......who does God "bless?"
Neither, but He will work in you to do your best and help keep you from getting hurt etc...
I can go on and on. Still working this thru I tell ya....
-->
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Ham
Yeah, I keep working through this stuff too.
I still hold on to SOME of the stuff.
1. Being positive actually in a lot of circumstances encourages positive results..
2. Believing God does actually have a lot of merit.
I haven't thrown it away, entirely. I think I just added a little common sense.
The idea that God wants you to have your stinking hearts desire- well, it just does not make much sense to me anymore. I could innocently want something that could spell sure and sudden catastrophe to a lot of people..
And I don't think the Almighty is gonna give it to me to stroke my ego, that somehow, I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I don't rely on the infallibility of the thing anymore, either. So friggin what if I don't get exactly what I want. God is still God.. maybe I oughta just get on the right path. And in a lot of ways, I think I have.
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learning
Hey Bliss, im still "in" as well
Mr. Ham.
The whole mountain thing? I think you "hit true" with what you wrote above. The example Jesus was giving them was that it was possible if needed for even a great mountain to move etc. That believing God would of course work then because to know to move a mountain would I think require that revelation from God. (?!?) Not that you can just believe for it to move, believe for the NY Rangers to win the Stanely Cup finally (my God when will they ever win? Can I pray to start favoring another team?) etcetera. I think I really agree with what you posted, interesting thoughts.
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CM
i think it's a different arena of thought-"whatsoever"-
in prayer-what is that?
secular satisfaction or possibly a
little more then what's on the surface..
what are the mountains?
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Ham
The old PFAL definition: "WHATSOEVER, means WHATSOEVER" doesn't really do much for me.
"All without distinction of what is 'promised' in the word" doesn't quite do much for me either.
Too many guarantees.
You could justify "whatsoever" to be, at least according to scripture:
The "right" to become stinking rich. Worked for Abraham, did it not?
The "right" to exercise power over the "God rejectors" and those who hate you.. (probably just annoyed..) Supposedly worked for Mordecai, Daniel, and others..
The "right" to buy anything your little heart desires- apparently worked for Solomon.
I tend to not consider any of these in the category of "whatsoever", and "guaranteed" nowadays.
I think Jesus set the record straight.
"Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."
Not that "things" are inherently bad.. or that secular fulfillment is devilish or anything.. I still think God would have us to carry out our calling, whatever it is, with joy..
But when he said "whatsoever", I don't think he had "abundance of things to possess" exactly in mind.
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CM
Amen Ham guy...
a bit deeper than what we were lured into
thinking it was all about...
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lindyhopper
Perhaps when speaking to some of Jesus' contemporary Judeans (or the contemporary Christians at the time this gospel was written)the distinction was clear with the words "in prayer". In so much as it was already understood to them what you would ask in prayer and what you wouldn't. Perhaps telling the mountain to be cast into the see also had more meaning, but not so much on a spiritual level. Different peoples had different terms they were referenced by in the Bible. Perhaps "mountain" was a word used to reference the Assyrians or someone else. The sea could refernce "the abyss" or unknown, a death of sorts who knows.
As you read other non-canonical gospels you see that at times they put in subtle swipes against one of the other schools of thought expressed in another gospel.
We often read the gospels as "THE words of Jesus are in red" regardless of whether they are in red or not. We forget that they were all written long after the life of Jesus and the apostles. The hidden spiritual message may not be so spiritual at times and the letters may not be all that red.
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Ham
Lindy, that's a very, very good point. What WOULD you ask for indeed..
I think they'd be embarrassed or worse with some of the stuff I was told I could pray for.
The PFAL thing was "and he was pointing to a literal mountain over there.."
My opinion, private interpretation.
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gc
I don't believe Jesus believed in believing. I don't think he trusted his believing to accomplish anything. I think he trusted God. I also think that "believing" and "trusting God" are two different things.
I remember the contradiction when I read Jesus' prayer about the "cup being taken from him". If the account is correct and he prayed that prayer, and since he didn't want to die that awful torurous death, then why didn't he believe for it to be accomplished another way? Taking into consideration that another scripture tells us that he had angels at his call to protect him, he very well could have.
gc
edited for the glaring grammatical error
;)-->
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Tom
VP explained the mountain thing in the Advanced Class differently than he did in the foundational.
In the Advanced Class, he explained the "have the believing of God" as God giving revelation concerning the removal of the mountain - if God gives you revelation that you can remove the mountain, you can say so & believe it & it will happen.
Foundational class students supposedly weren't ready for that "deeper" interpretation. They needed to be founded in believing in the principle of believing before they could move on.
I agree with the Advanced Class interpretation, but I disagree that it was deeper; it was different. The foundational interpretation was believing in believing; the advanced was believing in God's direction to individuals who believe in Him.
I also disagree with his logic about withholding the "deeper" interpretation from foundational students. He just lied to them. I'm not sure why.
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Ham
I agree.. but as to why-
I think people were hooked and reeled in with the promises of absoluteness.
"You can have anything you want, and WE can show you how.."
I wonder if the old man was crossing his fingers, hoping that the years of horse**** and mind numbing attention to details would keep us too busy to remember the former promises, when he slipped "the real deal" to us in the adv class..
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frank123lol
Several years back I read a book called:
Think and grow rich by Napelion Hill as well as
The magic of believing.I think wierwille used
these things also put some bible verses in it and wa la the hook to reel us in.
I know for me "believing" was like a rallying call,kick in the "extra we all have"Like masters of the universe cartoon "Ive got the power"Whatever
jesus set the standard,walk,and path to God
He MADE IT SIMPLE to know God
Remember small as a mustard seed?
To anser the question; Jesus did not believe in believing He knew the source not some freaking formula.
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