..... and I guess THAT statement would be an indication of being particularly addept at continuing to assigne blame to those who suffered at the hands of vpw/twi for the crimes committed against them.
You learned well...as that is a formula that has served twi admirably.
Yeah, but VPW said so MANY things were *truth*...that were not...In several of his basic premises he has been proven to be absolutely mistaken...
He used *truth* like a weapon to enforce his will....he taught others to do likewise...
TWI *truth* was used to to justify the sating of their lusts.
TWI *truth* was used to enforce implicit obediance, requiring folks to obey and do really awfull things against their will.
TWI *Truth* was always scriptural based.....but wasn`t necessarily right or healthy....
Look at what the parents in the child abuse thread were forced to do .... look at the women that were forced to *minister* to the man of God....look at the parents that were forced to abort their unborn children.....
ALL of these actions were justified with vpw`s version of the *truth* obediance to preform these actions, no matter HOW repulsive the duty required was secured with scriptures and vp`s version of the truth.
Dove, I do not believe what vp taught was the *truth* else so many wouldn`t have been destroyed by it.
As a matter of fact, I learned to despise the cruel God of twi and his ceasless demands.....it wasn`t untill I abandoned all preconcieved notions aquired by adhering to twi`s principles, and formulas that I began to apreciate the simplicty and love that God is.
Twi`s formulas and principles do not equate with truth.
------------------------------------------------
Ok Cathy
But you are the one that inserted TWI before truth that is not what I said!!! I said truth. I also said what he said that was true is true what he said that was not was not. I never said all taught is truth you did. That is why I made a seperation some truth some not....
It is well documented that much of what was taught was truth that he learned from others about the Bible his actions do not negate the truth in that. Men like Stiles, Bullinger, Welch,Pillai,Lamsa,Thayer,Luther,Berry are recognized in the Christian scholar community. Christian book distributers one of the largest Christian book sellers in their academic catalog carry these works. I know we order them for our bookstore.
You don't like VPW actions his moral character thats fine. As you say according to scripture it is lacking. By the way here is another to add to Galations ITimothy 3:1ff... Qualifications for a leader.
But as I said it is two seperate issues not connected one Character two Truth.
As in my example truth is truth despite any character flaws it has zero to do with it. Truth is not dependant on human things it stands on it own. Your
anger is preventing you from seperating things like truth and True minister they are not the same. You interchange them as if they were. You add TWI truth into the mix..Not the same as truth.
Look I'll try again this time we will use a favorite of yours Harry Potter. If one would open the book and read say page 20. That would be a truthful rendering of Harry Potter. Anyone could do that as long as the reading was a truthful reading of page 20. A rapist if reading the page 20 still would be truthfuly representing Harry Potter although his moral character is lacking. He could even read it while committing rape and it still would be a truthful representation of Harry Potter. Moral character does not change the truth. It is a seperate issue..... VPW shared lots of truth recognized at least in the Christian Academic World some not. but his actions do not negate what was true. Just like the rapists do not negate what Harry Potter page 20 said.
Those things that vpw said that were true are true. The things that he said that were not are not. Nothing to do with his character assessment..
Ahhhh, and therein lies the problem. What part of what vee pee said is true and what part of what vee pee taught is not true? That's why people have re-examined the teachings of TWI and I venture to say that obviously we have come to many different conclusions on the matter. :)-->
Determining these things requires a re-examination of what was taught. And, some would say that spiritual truths are way more important than math or English and that you can generally get a consensus from just about anywhere that 1+1=2, but that kind of consensus on the Bible just doesn't exist.
Some of us believed whatever TWI taught without really questioning it or "searching whether those things were so". The realization that TWI was corrupt down to the very core prompted a re-evaluation of the things we merely took forgranted. We just come out with different views on "whether those things were so."
________________________________________________
Well Belle mark this day down in greasespot history WE agree..... I have no quarrel with reevaluating what we were taught you should every day. I am sorry that some despite warning chose to believe everything that came out of leaders mouths. But the truth is according to the Bible that is our job to do. If we did not (and at some point that pretty much included all of us) that responsibility rests squarely on our shoulders. That does not mean we are bad people or really anything except that we just did not do what we were supposed to do. Our fault.
QuoteBelle: We just come out with different views on "whether those things were so."
Awwwwww, shucks, WhiteDove....we've agreed on LOTS of things. :D--> I 'spose it's the more ah... animated discussions that stick with us, eh? ;)-->
Ya, know, even when I thought I was "searching whether those things were so", I wasn't really. I was re-reading what they taught or re-looking at the same verses in the concordance or, for some reason, never even realized that the concordance showed absolutely contrary verses. Stupid? yeppers! Moreso for the times I just took forgranted what they said was true.
When I did start finding inconsistencies I was quickly shut up or told that I misunderstood the teaching... --> After I found y'all out here on the world wide web I really started questioning things and that's when I was allowed to choose to no longer attend fellowship. (how kind)
In reading some of the last posts...especially about the comparisons between WD's "English teacher" anology & VP...what came up in me is the fact that in teaching English or any language...there are exact definitive principles that adhere to "English" per se..laws if you will that are laid down in stone..that if one transgresses...that we can go to an "english book" & know if we're right or wrong. In teaching the Bible though..it seems like there are at many times different POSSIBLE options..just like the folks here that believe in the Trinity & those who don't...we really DON'T KNOW do we?? each is a possibility..to some degree & we'll all know when God or Jesus lays it out for us i
My last post got interrupted...as I was saying...the difference between teaching a "known..definitive" subject" like English & sometimes an unclear subject like the Bible leads people like LCM & VP & a slew of others open to give out their take on a variety of subjects..each of which can be interpreted & concluded over in several directions.
In the past "when we were young, we chose willingly to believe a farm preacher from Ohio & his cohorts...& wow..20-30 years later we've all accumulated a bit more wisdom..espeically practically speaking. There's no shame in reevaluating "doctrines" that didn't work (Law of Believing " etc..)...I'm just real thankful that we live in a free society & country in which we call the VP's on the carpet.
Do you see the moonies or the other cults doing what we're choosing to do..its most difficult..considering that we at one time l00% believed most of this & now we're evolving...Thank God I say!!
I was thinking today about Paul and his experience with men who taught scripture but exhibited works of the flesh.
Philippians 1:15-18
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Despite the fact that they were manifesting works of the flesh envy, strife, contention and were not preaching sincerely his response was What then? whether in pretence, or in truth rejoice that Christ was preached. No mention of be angry about their works of the flesh ,or warn everyone about them just be happy for the truth that was preached. I suppose that was my point in a nutshell be happy that truth was preached despite moral failure because it does not negate the truth that was preached...
I suppose dove...I could accept that if IF I believed what had been taught had been the *truth*.
I personally cannot believe that there was much truth...sure a whole lot of scriptures...most of the time twisted torturously to make a point....I think that evidence shows that it what occured was a bastardization of the scriptures and God`s will.
I think that the fruit of this ministry bears that theory out......
We did horrible things to satisfy God`s will as it was presented to us enforced by the *truth* we were taught.
I think that it sounded like truth....judging from the harm caused ...I don`t believe that it was.
But isn`t that what a false prophet does? They teach stuff that sounds close enough to fool folks into believing that he represents God?...(like I said ...it`s gotta be good, gotta be close).....and consequently end up being able to inflict great harm....people accepting the cruelty because they believe that it is God`s will.
Isn`t that what happens in Cults? Is not this what happened in twi?
Ok Dove, maybe I could understand if someone were able to explain to me the difference between vpw and a false profit or a wolf in sheep clothing.
Why is it he is not considered as such?
He won peoples trust and respect by teaching scripture....
He then utilized the trust and respect garnered as his teacher of scriptures to require from us that which was not his to take.
He utilized the scriptures to secure our implicit obediance, insisting that it was due to him because of the scriptures...
He stole, he decieved, he destroyed .... good hearted people even died....this accomplished all the while using the scriptures HE taught to secure our compliance and as a weapon to enforce his will....
The scriptures he taught were not used to do the will of God but the will of vp, the will of craig, etc.
We wouldn`t have obeyed and done the evil required by leadership for any man...but it was presented as God`s will backed by the scriptures they taught.
To me this reeks of false prophet...WHO`S will was accomplished?
Did God want these children abused?
Did God want the teenaged girls seeking healing and deliverance seduced and used?
Did God want girls drugged and raped?
Did God want families arbitrarily split up?
Did God want our unborn childdren killed so that we could honor our commitment to twi?
I don`t see God`s will being done, or God or Jesus being glorified.
I saw carnage in his name and in his cause.
To my way of thinking....either vp was a false prophet and is responsible for the pain caused by his ministry....or God is one cold uncaring son of a b-tch and doesn`t give a damn WHO suffered as long as his name and scripture were mentioned sporadically in between the unconscionable acts of cruelty.
Oh Rascal...............false doctrines & all...we still have a choice in what we "fall for"...if a person is deceived...then who is to "OWN IT"? I know a few people who fell for some of VP's crap & most of these people's insecurities I could EASILY trace back to their childhoods & by the time VP & Co. got their meat hooks into them..they were severely affected ...BUT BUT BUT...they tried some of the same stuff on others who "knew better" & didn't fall for the idolatry the BIBLE so warns us about.
I have sympathy for those above whom you mention..in every category & yet I'll bet if you interviewed a few of these folk who got hurt..they would own up to the fact that "they knew better" & yet fell for it..for poor reasons. Again..I'm not condoning VP & Co..as you might think..but much of the problem lies within the charater & integrity of ie..parents...in the abusive category...people on the brink of desperation do stupid things & its easy to then blame another for their influence.
We all get what your'e saying..good points (honestly!)..But there wasn't a gun to any of our heads was there?
I believed what I was taught in twi, I believed that IF I loved God I must become a doulos, I was taught and I believed that IF I wanted to be a doulos, I had to obey leadership implicitly, immediatly.....those demands ranged anywhere from *take this class* to *participate in this program* to *move from your honme state* *join the corpes*, go wow, *abort your child as it is a hindrance to you completing your commitment*...
Right or wrong, whether I wanted to or not...GOD himself would honor my heart and commitment....he would work through them to teach me....fail to obey and you immediatly put yourself at risk as being outside of God`s will and he could no longer protect you...
The gun held to my head was the threat of the withdrawal of the favor of God and the household from my life.... consequently resulting in my death spiritually and eventually physically.
THIS is what I was taught James, by the people who claimed to represent the word and will of God almighty on this earth like it hadn`t been known since the first century....THIS is why I obeyed........I was taught that God required these actions of me and to do any less was a betrayal of him who had given so much and the nministry who taught me God`s word....
I did NOT know any better James....at 17 I naievly trusted the people who said they could lead the way to God :-(
This was taught by the folks who claimed that they had ALL the answeres to life and Godliness...and IF I listened ... all questions would be answered, all hurts healed...
THAT is why their actions are heinous....they did it to us in *God`s* name.
That is why I have done 180 degree change from one extreme to another concerning my support of twi.
When we are deceived, a valid argument can be made that we are still responsible for being decieved,and with what we do with the deception. Everyone "owns" their own actions.
Sure, I can see it...makes sense...logical. I don't totally buy it myself, but it's not a wacky proposition by any means.
BUT the deceivers are responsible for deceiving, indeed for the very attempt, whether people fall for it or not.
Independent of the response to the deception, trying to deceive is grounds enough for mistrusting the deceiver and re-examining all that was taught by him.
Some posters seem to be saying that it was alright for Wierwille and company to deceive, since no one forced us to be deceived, to believe a word of it.
The emphasis is wrong, in my opinion, taking it off the deceiver, turning it into a kind of caveat emptor.
Heck, I know enough about self defense to prevent most people from punching me in the face, as long as I'm awake. If I drop my guard, or am compalcent, and get decked anyway, my assailant still gets busted. The judge isn't going to say "Tom is responsible, since he allowed himself to get hit"
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Ham
Yep.. sounds right.. that's their "job description".
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oldiesman
Friend Rascal you are an artist at blaming others for decisions you yourself made freely and willingly.
Ya can't accuse them of holding you physically, so you accuse them of holding you mentally.
It's all their fault.
Talk about deception.
I think you could write a book on VMP.
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rascal
..... and I guess THAT statement would be an indication of being particularly addept at continuing to assigne blame to those who suffered at the hands of vpw/twi for the crimes committed against them.
You learned well...as that is a formula that has served twi admirably.
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WhiteDove
------------------------------------------------
Ok Cathy
But you are the one that inserted TWI before truth that is not what I said!!! I said truth. I also said what he said that was true is true what he said that was not was not. I never said all taught is truth you did. That is why I made a seperation some truth some not....
It is well documented that much of what was taught was truth that he learned from others about the Bible his actions do not negate the truth in that. Men like Stiles, Bullinger, Welch,Pillai,Lamsa,Thayer,Luther,Berry are recognized in the Christian scholar community. Christian book distributers one of the largest Christian book sellers in their academic catalog carry these works. I know we order them for our bookstore.
You don't like VPW actions his moral character thats fine. As you say according to scripture it is lacking. By the way here is another to add to Galations ITimothy 3:1ff... Qualifications for a leader.
But as I said it is two seperate issues not connected one Character two Truth.
As in my example truth is truth despite any character flaws it has zero to do with it. Truth is not dependant on human things it stands on it own. Your
anger is preventing you from seperating things like truth and True minister they are not the same. You interchange them as if they were. You add TWI truth into the mix..Not the same as truth.
Look I'll try again this time we will use a favorite of yours Harry Potter. If one would open the book and read say page 20. That would be a truthful rendering of Harry Potter. Anyone could do that as long as the reading was a truthful reading of page 20. A rapist if reading the page 20 still would be truthfuly representing Harry Potter although his moral character is lacking. He could even read it while committing rape and it still would be a truthful representation of Harry Potter. Moral character does not change the truth. It is a seperate issue..... VPW shared lots of truth recognized at least in the Christian Academic World some not. but his actions do not negate what was true. Just like the rapists do not negate what Harry Potter page 20 said.
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Ham
Well...
Rapists USUALLY don't stop to read page twenty of Harry Potter to their victims.
vic on the other hand..
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WhiteDove
________________________________________________
Well Belle mark this day down in greasespot history WE agree..... I have no quarrel with reevaluating what we were taught you should every day. I am sorry that some despite warning chose to believe everything that came out of leaders mouths. But the truth is according to the Bible that is our job to do. If we did not (and at some point that pretty much included all of us) that responsibility rests squarely on our shoulders. That does not mean we are bad people or really anything except that we just did not do what we were supposed to do. Our fault.
QuoteBelle: We just come out with different views on "whether those things were so."
Exactly ...... and that is fine
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Ham
Some of us weren't very smart..
A Jackass throwing around greek words, looking like some kind of scholar- looked pretty convincing. They were the "expert" after all..
I think some saw through the cloud of BS right away.
Others, like me, it took YEARS..
:(-->
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Belle
Awwwwww, shucks, WhiteDove....we've agreed on LOTS of things.
:D--> I 'spose it's the more ah... animated discussions that stick with us, eh? 
;)-->
Ya, know, even when I thought I was "searching whether those things were so", I wasn't really. I was re-reading what they taught or re-looking at the same verses in the concordance or, for some reason, never even realized that the concordance showed absolutely contrary verses. Stupid? yeppers! Moreso for the times I just took forgranted what they said was true.
When I did start finding inconsistencies I was quickly shut up or told that I misunderstood the teaching...
--> After I found y'all out here on the world wide web I really started questioning things and that's when I was allowed to choose to no longer attend fellowship. (how kind)
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Second James
In reading some of the last posts...especially about the comparisons between WD's "English teacher" anology & VP...what came up in me is the fact that in teaching English or any language...there are exact definitive principles that adhere to "English" per se..laws if you will that are laid down in stone..that if one transgresses...that we can go to an "english book" & know if we're right or wrong. In teaching the Bible though..it seems like there are at many times different POSSIBLE options..just like the folks here that believe in the Trinity & those who don't...we really DON'T KNOW do we?? each is a possibility..to some degree & we'll all know when God or Jesus lays it out for us i
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Second James
My last post got interrupted...as I was saying...the difference between teaching a "known..definitive" subject" like English & sometimes an unclear subject like the Bible leads people like LCM & VP & a slew of others open to give out their take on a variety of subjects..each of which can be interpreted & concluded over in several directions.
In the past "when we were young, we chose willingly to believe a farm preacher from Ohio & his cohorts...& wow..20-30 years later we've all accumulated a bit more wisdom..espeically practically speaking. There's no shame in reevaluating "doctrines" that didn't work (Law of Believing " etc..)...I'm just real thankful that we live in a free society & country in which we call the VP's on the carpet.
Do you see the moonies or the other cults doing what we're choosing to do..its most difficult..considering that we at one time l00% believed most of this & now we're evolving...Thank God I say!!
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rascal
Read carefully the child abuse thread....if that doesn`t convince you of the putrid fruit of twi...nothing will.
Factor in the abuse of the women, the forced sex, the forced abortions, the destroying of families....
All of this was accomplished while these creeps were teaching the *truth*.
I don`t believe that God has any part of a group that would condone these things....no matter HOW much scripture they teach.
Jim Jones spoke scripture...
David Koresch spoke scripture...
Their ministries ended in death and destruction....
Both groups STILL have folks that speak in support of their ministries.....they were no different than vpw and twi.
They used scripture to steal kill and destroy....doesn`t sound like the works of God.
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WhiteDove
Cathy
I was thinking today about Paul and his experience with men who taught scripture but exhibited works of the flesh.
Philippians 1:15-18
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Despite the fact that they were manifesting works of the flesh envy, strife, contention and were not preaching sincerely his response was What then? whether in pretence, or in truth rejoice that Christ was preached. No mention of be angry about their works of the flesh ,or warn everyone about them just be happy for the truth that was preached. I suppose that was my point in a nutshell be happy that truth was preached despite moral failure because it does not negate the truth that was preached...
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rascal
I suppose dove...I could accept that if IF I believed what had been taught had been the *truth*.
I personally cannot believe that there was much truth...sure a whole lot of scriptures...most of the time twisted torturously to make a point....I think that evidence shows that it what occured was a bastardization of the scriptures and God`s will.
I think that the fruit of this ministry bears that theory out......
We did horrible things to satisfy God`s will as it was presented to us enforced by the *truth* we were taught.
I think that it sounded like truth....judging from the harm caused ...I don`t believe that it was.
But isn`t that what a false prophet does? They teach stuff that sounds close enough to fool folks into believing that he represents God?...(like I said ...it`s gotta be good, gotta be close).....and consequently end up being able to inflict great harm....people accepting the cruelty because they believe that it is God`s will.
Isn`t that what happens in Cults? Is not this what happened in twi?
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rascal
I keep wondering when we get to the great gathering and the folks that run up arrogantly expecting to be welcomed and richly rewarded...
I wonder if there won`t be more than a few top twi leaders in for a rude awakening when they are told ...... *I knew you not*
bu bu but lord didn`t we prophesy in thy name...move the word...run the classes...fill our quota for wow and way corpes ...tithe witness........etc.
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rascal
Ok Dove, maybe I could understand if someone were able to explain to me the difference between vpw and a false profit or a wolf in sheep clothing.
Why is it he is not considered as such?
He won peoples trust and respect by teaching scripture....
He then utilized the trust and respect garnered as his teacher of scriptures to require from us that which was not his to take.
He utilized the scriptures to secure our implicit obediance, insisting that it was due to him because of the scriptures...
He stole, he decieved, he destroyed .... good hearted people even died....this accomplished all the while using the scriptures HE taught to secure our compliance and as a weapon to enforce his will....
The scriptures he taught were not used to do the will of God but the will of vp, the will of craig, etc.
We wouldn`t have obeyed and done the evil required by leadership for any man...but it was presented as God`s will backed by the scriptures they taught.
To me this reeks of false prophet...WHO`S will was accomplished?
Did God want these children abused?
Did God want the teenaged girls seeking healing and deliverance seduced and used?
Did God want girls drugged and raped?
Did God want families arbitrarily split up?
Did God want our unborn childdren killed so that we could honor our commitment to twi?
I don`t see God`s will being done, or God or Jesus being glorified.
I saw carnage in his name and in his cause.
To my way of thinking....either vp was a false prophet and is responsible for the pain caused by his ministry....or God is one cold uncaring son of a b-tch and doesn`t give a damn WHO suffered as long as his name and scripture were mentioned sporadically in between the unconscionable acts of cruelty.
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Second James
Oh Rascal...............false doctrines & all...we still have a choice in what we "fall for"...if a person is deceived...then who is to "OWN IT"? I know a few people who fell for some of VP's crap & most of these people's insecurities I could EASILY trace back to their childhoods & by the time VP & Co. got their meat hooks into them..they were severely affected ...BUT BUT BUT...they tried some of the same stuff on others who "knew better" & didn't fall for the idolatry the BIBLE so warns us about.
I have sympathy for those above whom you mention..in every category & yet I'll bet if you interviewed a few of these folk who got hurt..they would own up to the fact that "they knew better" & yet fell for it..for poor reasons. Again..I'm not condoning VP & Co..as you might think..but much of the problem lies within the charater & integrity of ie..parents...in the abusive category...people on the brink of desperation do stupid things & its easy to then blame another for their influence.
We all get what your'e saying..good points (honestly!)..But there wasn't a gun to any of our heads was there?
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Bramble
Okay James,now I'm confused. Are you saying deception wasn't really deception, because people 'really' knew what was happening to them?
That being deceived was our choice?
That seems like spin to me--the victim deseved to be the vidtim because they chose it.
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rascal
No James, I DIDN`T know any better.
I believed what I was taught in twi, I believed that IF I loved God I must become a doulos, I was taught and I believed that IF I wanted to be a doulos, I had to obey leadership implicitly, immediatly.....those demands ranged anywhere from *take this class* to *participate in this program* to *move from your honme state* *join the corpes*, go wow, *abort your child as it is a hindrance to you completing your commitment*...
Right or wrong, whether I wanted to or not...GOD himself would honor my heart and commitment....he would work through them to teach me....fail to obey and you immediatly put yourself at risk as being outside of God`s will and he could no longer protect you...
The gun held to my head was the threat of the withdrawal of the favor of God and the household from my life.... consequently resulting in my death spiritually and eventually physically.
THIS is what I was taught James, by the people who claimed to represent the word and will of God almighty on this earth like it hadn`t been known since the first century....THIS is why I obeyed........I was taught that God required these actions of me and to do any less was a betrayal of him who had given so much and the nministry who taught me God`s word....
I did NOT know any better James....at 17 I naievly trusted the people who said they could lead the way to God :-(
This was taught by the folks who claimed that they had ALL the answeres to life and Godliness...and IF I listened ... all questions would be answered, all hurts healed...
THAT is why their actions are heinous....they did it to us in *God`s* name.
That is why I have done 180 degree change from one extreme to another concerning my support of twi.
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Ham
Just a thought.. maybe this is why God gets so "pi**ed off" at people that take advantage of KIDS.
Kids are "gullible", if you will.
Kids believe, practically unreservedly.
Take advantage of that- you're in deep doo doo.
Don't blame the "kid".
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rascal
At what age do you cease being a *kid*?
I sure was gullible, I only wanted to be pleasing to God...I trusted the people who claimed that they would show me how....
You think I should have known better at 17 James?
How does that make twi any less culpable?
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Allan
Rascal said..I don't believe much truth was taught.
????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ham
Some younger, some older. All I know, is at seventeen, give me the ball, and I'd run with it.
Equate doubting God with doubting people..
I swallowed it.
"They" SEEMED to be what they said they were..
or at least they kept boldly claiming it.
One thing- I don't think I'm capable of EVER believing quite like that, again.
Honestly, I think most people cease being a "kid" when they REALLY get taken advantage of, and finally wake up. Sad in a way, really.
I don't know how much age factors into this for every individual.
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mstar1
The actions/lifestyle/spirituality/example of a teacher are the most important part of any spiritual/religious teaching...and is what really sticks.
Anybody can learn enough to dazzle people with BS, but it doesn't hold any water -none of it--if it leads them into living like scoundrels.
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Oakspear
When we are deceived, a valid argument can be made that we are still responsible for being decieved,and with what we do with the deception. Everyone "owns" their own actions.
Sure, I can see it...makes sense...logical. I don't totally buy it myself, but it's not a wacky proposition by any means.
BUT the deceivers are responsible for deceiving, indeed for the very attempt, whether people fall for it or not.
Independent of the response to the deception, trying to deceive is grounds enough for mistrusting the deceiver and re-examining all that was taught by him.
Some posters seem to be saying that it was alright for Wierwille and company to deceive, since no one forced us to be deceived, to believe a word of it.
The emphasis is wrong, in my opinion, taking it off the deceiver, turning it into a kind of caveat emptor.
Heck, I know enough about self defense to prevent most people from punching me in the face, as long as I'm awake. If I drop my guard, or am compalcent, and get decked anyway, my assailant still gets busted. The judge isn't going to say "Tom is responsible, since he allowed himself to get hit"
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