Mr. Hamm, I think that it all ties in with an unwillingness to come to grips with the evil nature of twi.
I think some are unable to give up the whole *we were special* idea.
If you acknowledge and accept the depths of depravity that vpw and his leaders sank...eventually one must come to grips with the fact that we were WRONG!
A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues.
It is very humbeling to come to grips with the idea that we were wrong about nearly every single truth and concept we hold dear and have spent our entire adult lives building upon.
Far easier to believe that it was a good group, that we did great things for God and the world..... that we were super believers....that the bad was only due to a few people messing up occasionally....
This makes it easier to still feel like we are right.
While I will admit to the possibility that there are people who decided that the bible was "full of holes" only because of the misdeeds of TWI "leadership", you don't see too many of them here.
Most GSers who no longer subscribe to biblical inerrancy do so because of careful study, or thoughtful introspection, not due to a fit of pique over extramarital affairs, drambuie, or spittle ;)-->.
[/quote
________________________________________________
It is true that several people here base their belief of scripture on abuse issues although most won't spell it out as such that does not mean that is not how they think. It is not a strawman fallacy.
_______________________________________________
Quote:If you acknowledge and accept the depths of depravity that vpw and his leaders sank...eventually one must come to grips with the fact that we were WRONG!
A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues
------------------------------------------------
Where is the careful study in this? None! They were abusers so we were wrong and the scriptural truths they taught were not to trusted.
Regarding the quote that used to make your point: here it is in context:
quote:
I think some are unable to give up the whole *we were special* idea.
If you acknowledge and accept the depths of depravity that vpw and his leaders sank...eventually one must come to grips with the fact that we were WRONG!
Many of us in TWI subscribed to the idea that we were a "people set apart" (not as Christians, but as "members" of TWI) and that we had special knowledge; that special knowledge was what made everything else worthwhile.
This quote:
"A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues."
Does not say that this man NECESSARILY was wrong, but that he could not be trusted.
Lack of trust in his words should lead to a re-examination of all that was taught by this man. Re-examination might lead to confirmation, or rejection.
That carefull study dove, would to be read what the fruit of a man of the flesh, verses the fruit of a man of the spirit in galations.
You line up vp`s actions of adultery, fornication, lying, hatred, wrath, drunkeness, and see for yourself which side of the fence that lands vp and most of his leaders on.
I personally mistrust a man who`s actions give every indication that he is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence.
Most of us here at GS have rejected SOMETHING from our days in TWI. For some, it is physically leaving TWI, while retaining most of their core doctrines; for others it is as radical as no longer believing the bible. For most it is something in between.
Something I have observed at GS is a tendency for many to view what THEY have rejected as "error", and what they have retained as "truth". Those who retain more of the old TWI than they did are foolishly holding on to cult teachings, while those who reject more than they do are throwing out the baby with the bathwater or looking on the frailties of men rather than the truth.
A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues
Not true a teachers actions may have nothing to do with the subject they are teaching as I said. I know An English teacher that had sex with her students most of the English she taught was fine. Her abuse was not. Her actions though immoral maybe, did not negate her English. I know a Bible teacher who taught Bible He also was abusive but his actions do not negate his teachings either. Each stands or falls on their merit. Because he was or because some perceive him to be a man of the flesh or how he treated people does negate the teachings. Those are character issues not truth defining issues. As I said it is two separate issues and not logical reasoning for evaluating truth or not truth. By the way I don't have any doubt that your reasons for your beliefs were not thought through. It is obvious from your posts that you think through your actions. I just don't think that it is all that common of an occurrence. I don't like the way he acted is not a valid reason for determination for truthfulness of information.
I don't have a disagreement of your assessment of VPW character. Or as you say the side of the fence he is on. But which ever side he lands on does nothing to affect any information that was spoken that was a true fact. Another words 1+1 =2 if Mother Teresa said it or Charles Manson said it no difference it still is true Those things that vpw said that were true are true. The things that he said that were not are not. Nothing to do with his character assessment..
Most of us here at GS have rejected SOMETHING from our days in TWI. For some, it is physically leaving TWI, while retaining most of their core doctrines; for others it is as radical as no longer believing the bible. For most it is something in between.
Something I have observed at GS is a tendency for many to view what THEY have rejected as "error", and what they have retained as "truth". Those who retain more of the old TWI than they did are foolishly holding on to cult teachings, while those who reject more than they do are throwing out the baby with the bathwater or looking on the frailties of men rather than the truth.
I would agree with you 100%. But to say or imply that we should toss out scriptures because of a moral flaw is not logical. To say that none can be trusted for instance what VPW said regarding Ephesians 3:9 could not possibly be true because he did so and so is not logical either. As you said there is a thoughtful process for determining truth or not truth. This is emotionalism not logical determination .
That carefull study dove, would to be read what the fruit of a man of the flesh, verses the fruit of a man of the spirit in galations.
You line up vp`s actions of adultery, fornication, lying, hatred, wrath, drunkeness, and see for yourself which side of the fence that lands vp and most of his leaders on.
I personally mistrust a man who`s actions give every indication that he is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence.
------------------------------------------------
Mistrusting his actions is one thing but that is not what you said:
Quote:A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues.Quote
_______________________________________________
That does not mean that he can not be trusted to speak spiritual truths or any other truths for that matter. My point exactly mistrust his actions all you want but those things that he spoke about the Bible (however little or much you still hold to) that have proven to be true by Biblical texts and or Scholars. Are true!Even if he hung little kids from the Way sign. His actions does not make truth non truth.
Quote: That does not mean that he can not be trusted to speak spiritual truths or any other truths for that matter. My point exactly mistrust his actions all you want but those things that he spoke about the Bible :quote
Dove, according to scriptures it does....
It is unwise to trust a man who`s fruit manifested gives every indication that he was of the flesh, or to expect him to understand or be able to honestly and accuratly portray spiritual matters.
Sure he taught some accurate scripture...BFD... he then turned and used the scripture that he taught to steal that which was not his, to manipulate and bend others to his will, to decieve, and to destroy when displeased.....
He used scripture he taught to attempt to justify and cover evil....to excuse himself from having to behave in a manner of good moral character....
He taught his ministers to do likewise.
He handled the scriptures decietfully....he betrayed the trust that was placed in him....
His actions give every indication of being a FALSE prophet....a wolf in sheep`s clothing....thats what they DO.....they convince folks that they speak for God, they sound good enough to fool folks, but they are not working for God.....we are forwarned against them.
I do not believe a true minister could have so callously crushed and destroyed on a whim...this is not indicative of a Godly person....
No doubt some learned scripture, but so much was contaminated by his *research*....that every bit needs to be re examined...
I don`t feel like he did us any favors....I certainly don`t feel like it was worth the price paid....
Thats fine your opinion but that does not void things that are /were truth. as I said that which is true is true just as it is in Math English or any other field a teachers actions does not void the subject. It may make it hard to believe but it does not make it untruthful.
Yeah, but VPW said so MANY things were *truth*...that were not...In several of his basic premises he has been proven to be absolutely mistaken...
He used *truth* like a weapon to enforce his will....he taught others to do likewise...
TWI *truth* was used to to justify the sating of their lusts.
TWI *truth* was used to enforce implicit obediance, requiring folks to obey and do really awfull things against their will.
TWI *Truth* was always scriptural based.....but wasn`t necessarily right or healthy....
Look at what the parents in the child abuse thread were forced to do .... look at the women that were forced to *minister* to the man of God....look at the parents that were forced to abort their unborn children.....
ALL of these actions were justified with vpw`s version of the *truth* obediance to preform these actions, no matter HOW repulsive the duty required was secured with scriptures and vp`s version of the truth.
Dove, I do not believe what vp taught was the *truth* else so many wouldn`t have been destroyed by it.
As a matter of fact, I learned to despise the cruel God of twi and his ceasless demands.....it wasn`t untill I abandoned all preconcieved notions aquired by adhering to twi`s principles, and formulas that I began to apreciate the simplicty and love that God is.
Twi`s formulas and principles do not equate with truth.
Dove, I am sorry, twi teaching something doesn`t make it truth.
Math and english are entirely different subjects....
It`s like saying every subject taught in a school or university is as true as the universal principles of math....not so....many subjects taught are nothing more than peoples opinions.
Twi dogma is nothing more than vpw`s OPINION of God and scripture....vpw who`s actions brand him as a man of the flesh.
That carefull study dove, would to be read what the fruit of a man of the flesh, verses the fruit of a man of the spirit in galations.
You line up vp`s actions of adultery, fornication, lying, hatred, wrath, drunkeness, and see for yourself which side of the fence that lands vp and most of his leaders on.
I personally mistrust a man who`s actions give every indication that he is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence.
Rascal ol' buddy, that careful study, would be what the fruit of a woman of the flesh, verses the fruit of a woman of the spirit in galations.
I line up your actions of hatred, wrath, strife and heresies and I see for myself which side of the fence that lands you.
I personally mistrust a woman who`s actions give every indication that she is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence.
Ok oldies, but your opinion of my fruit not withstanding......the REST of us are currently discussing the reliability of twi`s version of the *truth* when viewed in the light that it was based on the opinions of a man who`s proclivities lend credence to the theory that he was of the flesh.
Scripture declares that one cannot recieve the things of the spirit if you are of the flesh...plain and simple.
The destruction committed with the doctrine of vpw as justification, the pain inflicted with the enacting the principles he declared to be truth.... lends strong evidence that it was not of God....therefor not necessarily truth.
Those things that vpw said that were true are true. The things that he said that were not are not. Nothing to do with his character assessment..
Ahhhh, and therein lies the problem. What part of what vee pee said is true and what part of what vee pee taught is not true? That's why people have re-examined the teachings of TWI and I venture to say that obviously we have come to many different conclusions on the matter. :)-->
Determining these things requires a re-examination of what was taught. And, some would say that spiritual truths are way more important than math or English and that you can generally get a consensus from just about anywhere that 1+1=2, but that kind of consensus on the Bible just doesn't exist.
Some of us believed whatever TWI taught without really questioning it or "searching whether those things were so". The realization that TWI was corrupt down to the very core prompted a re-evaluation of the things we merely took forgranted. We just come out with different views on "whether those things were so."
vp`s actions of adultery, fornication, lying, hatred, wrath, drunkeness
which in my opinion disqualifies his works for anything.
Cripe, for me, it would be easier to toss out the whole mess and start over again.. rather than try to sort through the ravings of a half-baked lunatic..
I must have been nuts. Even I thought he was "Napoleon" at one time..
i think veepee was an pompas lying[ fill in the blanks] foot but he did teach some truth
i cling to the fact that i AM born again and was taught that by two loving wow's who came to rumford me. back in the 70's and i still am thankful to them. i don't know if i would be born again today if that would not have happened.
of course twi turned into a circus act not long after that
but thank God for someone showing me Romans 10,9&10
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rascal
Mr. Hamm, I think that it all ties in with an unwillingness to come to grips with the evil nature of twi.
I think some are unable to give up the whole *we were special* idea.
If you acknowledge and accept the depths of depravity that vpw and his leaders sank...eventually one must come to grips with the fact that we were WRONG!
A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues.
It is very humbeling to come to grips with the idea that we were wrong about nearly every single truth and concept we hold dear and have spent our entire adult lives building upon.
Far easier to believe that it was a good group, that we did great things for God and the world..... that we were super believers....that the bad was only due to a few people messing up occasionally....
This makes it easier to still feel like we are right.
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WhiteDove
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Ham
I dunno.. sounds pretty good to me. But maybe spoken in the "positive" makes more sense:
"the scriptural truths they taught us are to be RE-EXAMINED".
Personally, I'm tired of acting positive all the time..
I think the whole point though, he who uttered these "mighty" doctrines was:
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Oakspear
White Dove:
Regarding the quote that used to make your point: here it is in context:
Wrong about what? That "we were special".Link to comment
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Oakspear
Many of us in TWI subscribed to the idea that we were a "people set apart" (not as Christians, but as "members" of TWI) and that we had special knowledge; that special knowledge was what made everything else worthwhile.
This quote:
"A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues."
Does not say that this man NECESSARILY was wrong, but that he could not be trusted.
Lack of trust in his words should lead to a re-examination of all that was taught by this man. Re-examination might lead to confirmation, or rejection.
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rascal
That carefull study dove, would to be read what the fruit of a man of the flesh, verses the fruit of a man of the spirit in galations.
You line up vp`s actions of adultery, fornication, lying, hatred, wrath, drunkeness, and see for yourself which side of the fence that lands vp and most of his leaders on.
I personally mistrust a man who`s actions give every indication that he is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence.
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Oakspear
Most of us here at GS have rejected SOMETHING from our days in TWI. For some, it is physically leaving TWI, while retaining most of their core doctrines; for others it is as radical as no longer believing the bible. For most it is something in between.
Something I have observed at GS is a tendency for many to view what THEY have rejected as "error", and what they have retained as "truth". Those who retain more of the old TWI than they did are foolishly holding on to cult teachings, while those who reject more than they do are throwing out the baby with the bathwater or looking on the frailties of men rather than the truth.
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WhiteDove
Ok and then:Quote
A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues
Not true a teachers actions may have nothing to do with the subject they are teaching as I said. I know An English teacher that had sex with her students most of the English she taught was fine. Her abuse was not. Her actions though immoral maybe, did not negate her English. I know a Bible teacher who taught Bible He also was abusive but his actions do not negate his teachings either. Each stands or falls on their merit. Because he was or because some perceive him to be a man of the flesh or how he treated people does negate the teachings. Those are character issues not truth defining issues. As I said it is two separate issues and not logical reasoning for evaluating truth or not truth. By the way I don't have any doubt that your reasons for your beliefs were not thought through. It is obvious from your posts that you think through your actions. I just don't think that it is all that common of an occurrence. I don't like the way he acted is not a valid reason for determination for truthfulness of information.
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Rascal
I don't have a disagreement of your assessment of VPW character. Or as you say the side of the fence he is on. But which ever side he lands on does nothing to affect any information that was spoken that was a true fact. Another words 1+1 =2 if Mother Teresa said it or Charles Manson said it no difference it still is true Those things that vpw said that were true are true. The things that he said that were not are not. Nothing to do with his character assessment..
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WhiteDove
I would agree with you 100%. But to say or imply that we should toss out scriptures because of a moral flaw is not logical. To say that none can be trusted for instance what VPW said regarding Ephesians 3:9 could not possibly be true because he did so and so is not logical either. As you said there is a thoughtful process for determining truth or not truth. This is emotionalism not logical determination .
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WhiteDove
------------------------------------------------
Mistrusting his actions is one thing but that is not what you said:
Quote:A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues.Quote
_______________________________________________
That does not mean that he can not be trusted to speak spiritual truths or any other truths for that matter. My point exactly mistrust his actions all you want but those things that he spoke about the Bible (however little or much you still hold to) that have proven to be true by Biblical texts and or Scholars. Are true!Even if he hung little kids from the Way sign. His actions does not make truth non truth.
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rascal
Quote: That does not mean that he can not be trusted to speak spiritual truths or any other truths for that matter. My point exactly mistrust his actions all you want but those things that he spoke about the Bible :quote
Dove, according to scriptures it does....
It is unwise to trust a man who`s fruit manifested gives every indication that he was of the flesh, or to expect him to understand or be able to honestly and accuratly portray spiritual matters.
Sure he taught some accurate scripture...BFD... he then turned and used the scripture that he taught to steal that which was not his, to manipulate and bend others to his will, to decieve, and to destroy when displeased.....
He used scripture he taught to attempt to justify and cover evil....to excuse himself from having to behave in a manner of good moral character....
He taught his ministers to do likewise.
He handled the scriptures decietfully....he betrayed the trust that was placed in him....
His actions give every indication of being a FALSE prophet....a wolf in sheep`s clothing....thats what they DO.....they convince folks that they speak for God, they sound good enough to fool folks, but they are not working for God.....we are forwarned against them.
I do not believe a true minister could have so callously crushed and destroyed on a whim...this is not indicative of a Godly person....
No doubt some learned scripture, but so much was contaminated by his *research*....that every bit needs to be re examined...
I don`t feel like he did us any favors....I certainly don`t feel like it was worth the price paid....
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WhiteDove
Thats fine your opinion but that does not void things that are /were truth. as I said that which is true is true just as it is in Math English or any other field a teachers actions does not void the subject. It may make it hard to believe but it does not make it untruthful.
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rascal
Yeah, but VPW said so MANY things were *truth*...that were not...In several of his basic premises he has been proven to be absolutely mistaken...
He used *truth* like a weapon to enforce his will....he taught others to do likewise...
TWI *truth* was used to to justify the sating of their lusts.
TWI *truth* was used to enforce implicit obediance, requiring folks to obey and do really awfull things against their will.
TWI *Truth* was always scriptural based.....but wasn`t necessarily right or healthy....
Look at what the parents in the child abuse thread were forced to do .... look at the women that were forced to *minister* to the man of God....look at the parents that were forced to abort their unborn children.....
ALL of these actions were justified with vpw`s version of the *truth* obediance to preform these actions, no matter HOW repulsive the duty required was secured with scriptures and vp`s version of the truth.
Dove, I do not believe what vp taught was the *truth* else so many wouldn`t have been destroyed by it.
As a matter of fact, I learned to despise the cruel God of twi and his ceasless demands.....it wasn`t untill I abandoned all preconcieved notions aquired by adhering to twi`s principles, and formulas that I began to apreciate the simplicty and love that God is.
Twi`s formulas and principles do not equate with truth.
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rascal
Dove, I am sorry, twi teaching something doesn`t make it truth.
Math and english are entirely different subjects....
It`s like saying every subject taught in a school or university is as true as the universal principles of math....not so....many subjects taught are nothing more than peoples opinions.
Twi dogma is nothing more than vpw`s OPINION of God and scripture....vpw who`s actions brand him as a man of the flesh.
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oldiesman
I line up your actions of hatred, wrath, strife and heresies and I see for myself which side of the fence that lands you.
I personally mistrust a woman who`s actions give every indication that she is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence.
Pot calling the kettle black, friend Rascal.
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rascal
Ok oldies, but your opinion of my fruit not withstanding......the REST of us are currently discussing the reliability of twi`s version of the *truth* when viewed in the light that it was based on the opinions of a man who`s proclivities lend credence to the theory that he was of the flesh.
Scripture declares that one cannot recieve the things of the spirit if you are of the flesh...plain and simple.
The destruction committed with the doctrine of vpw as justification, the pain inflicted with the enacting the principles he declared to be truth.... lends strong evidence that it was not of God....therefor not necessarily truth.
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Belle
Ahhhh, and therein lies the problem. What part of what vee pee said is true and what part of what vee pee taught is not true? That's why people have re-examined the teachings of TWI and I venture to say that obviously we have come to many different conclusions on the matter.
:)-->
Determining these things requires a re-examination of what was taught. And, some would say that spiritual truths are way more important than math or English and that you can generally get a consensus from just about anywhere that 1+1=2, but that kind of consensus on the Bible just doesn't exist.
Some of us believed whatever TWI taught without really questioning it or "searching whether those things were so". The realization that TWI was corrupt down to the very core prompted a re-evaluation of the things we merely took forgranted. We just come out with different views on "whether those things were so."
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oldiesman
We human beings ARE of the flesh and ARE carnal. Yet, have the ability (thank God) to receive spiritual things.
God made sure of that.
EVEN YOU have that ability, evident works of the flesh notwithstanding...
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rascal
That not withstanding oldies, we are discusiing the reliability of the opinions of a man who`s actions consisitantly brand him as *of the flesh*.
Are his opinions worthey of being deemed *truth* when scripture says that he is not to be trusted?
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Ham
which in my opinion disqualifies his works for anything.
Cripe, for me, it would be easier to toss out the whole mess and start over again.. rather than try to sort through the ravings of a half-baked lunatic..
I must have been nuts. Even I thought he was "Napoleon" at one time..
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oldiesman
Do you know how many times VP himself said that we should work the Word ourselves and make it our own and "don't take my word for it"?
Does that even matter to you?
I trow not.
And he welcomed people who thought he was wrong, to leave.
Jee, ever wonder why you stayed for so long?
Hung around for years and years and years.
Why didn't you get outatown if it was so bad?
I know I know, you were an enslaved victim, couldn't make any decisions on your own, shackled and dominated at every turn by others.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i think veepee was an pompas lying[ fill in the blanks] foot but he did teach some truth
i cling to the fact that i AM born again and was taught that by two loving wow's who came to rumford me. back in the 70's and i still am thankful to them. i don't know if i would be born again today if that would not have happened.
of course twi turned into a circus act not long after that
but thank God for someone showing me Romans 10,9&10
but alas does that we will meet him at the bema??
hope so i plan to bring stones to toss
:)-->
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Ham
Some of us may show up with rotten eggs..
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