Problem is, the horse is not dead. It refuses to die.
It still promotes the same kind of nonsense, same kind of abuse, only worse than before. More blatant, more devilish. So what do you do with a rotten, stinking, controlling, thieving, devilish, conscienceless horse that refuses to die?
Oh well, its a gruesome job, but somebody has to do it I guess..
quote:
people who POSSIBLY had good intentions to deliver the truth to really help people
I have nothing but the highest admiration for these people, even to this day.
quote:
people who POSSIBLY had good intentions to deliver the truth to really help people & in the process corrupted themselves as people in power tend to
At the least, I feel pity for them. If they are still busy raking God's people over hot coals, I think they deserve some (continued) contempt.
quote:
they are l00% sold on the Bible & its power based on the belief in words
I think most of us woke up, and found what we were "sold" was not all it was cracked up to be.
Nor was a lot of it "the Word". For me, it took YEARS of failed efforts before coming to this conclusion. Not an extreme change after all, at least to me.
quote:
to me, it would be different if I hadn't seen people healed & set free
Personally, all I saw was talk. Maybe a good talk, but just... talk. I don't discount the Lord's ability, I question man's.
Years of dedicated, loving effort, and I never saw anybody raise even a stinking dog from the dead. No walking on water, no this, no that- but THAT was "available". When it did NOT happen, "well, results are not guaranteed".
What I observed: any question about "where's the beef?" was artfully assigned to the category of "seeking for signs". "Bad, bad Thomas. you oughta know better.."
I just don't see the profit of crucifying these people (yeh warnings are a good thing, but beating a dead dead dead horse over & over??? (& over)????????? How dead do "we" want it to be & in the mean time there really are people who NEED words of life to set them free.
Let me first say I agree 100% with Ham. In fact his post is almost word for word what I was planning to post. :D-->
quote:
I don't condone what VP & LCM & Horneyhands did...but can't truth stand on its own in spite of how the messenger fails?
Sure, truth can stand on it's own and no one is saying that it can't...least I don't think so. BUT truth is NOT standing at TWI and it is not being taught there either. If people really want and need the truth, they need to go somewhere else or they will end up as abused, hurt and screwed as we are/were.
Horneyhands is still at it! That's why I post about him. People should be warned and made aware of how utterly evil, lying, sneaking, conniving and devilish he and his wife are.
In fact, I had an odd meeting with a gal in a bookstore not too long ago who's sister had run into some people in TWI and had attended one of their functions. I told her about TWI and directed her here. Since I don't know the girl, I don't know what came of it, but I'm darn glad there's a GSpot to warn people.
Those in charge are still promoting, living, teaching and condoning the actions of craig and vee pee. They're still teaching craig's book for Christ's sake!! They are still treating people terribly wrong. It's NOT a Godly organization and people need to be warned!
As for beliefs....well, not everyone believes that everything TWI taught was correct. Many people have stepped back from simply believing something because someone told them it was true and decided it wasn't true and found that they actually don't believe anything the Bible says as true. Others believe the Bible is true, but not most of what TWI taught. Some still believe everything TWI taught is true. To each his own....I actually understand and agree with what WhiteDove posted earlier about this. ;)--> You can't put people into extreme classifications because it just doesn't work that way.
I think when people leave they tend to re-evaluate everything they were taught in TWI, which is a good thing. Then they come to their own conclusion regarding what they hold on to and what they don't. Every person is different when it comes to this. Me? I'm still re-evaluating. :D-->
How dead do "we" want it to be & in the mean time there really are people who NEED words of life to set them free.
"What about THE PEOPLE?"
Personally, I don't think God Almighty is quite as bound and gagged as we think.
"If its to be" its not necessarily up to me.
Sure, I do my part.. but I'm not so damned egotistical anymore to think that somehow the whole stinking universe is waiting for me to act, or something..
Second James, well said !! I wasn't dumb enough to take ALL the .... thrown at me from leader.... flingers in twi, I wasn't dumb enough to let it 'eat away' at me for eons afterwards and I'm certainly not dumb enough to blame God for my dumbness !!
Satori...this book also contains passages about judgement & rewards..seems to me that IF the Bible is true...you might just get to give an accounting of the "sticker" that you must obviously believe to be true..hope I get to be in the audience when you explain it to the Lord God Almighty
Well 2nd James, if I am allowed to speak I think history will bear out the label's warnings. Lots of history.
God, as we understand Him anyway, is not a liar. I have to wonder what His view of people who do lie on His behalf might be. Those liars, with presumably the best of intentions, still manage to muck things up quite a lot of the time. Hindsight shows us, often enough, that their ostensible intentions, er, weren't best after all.
Well, Allan I guess you'll just have to call me dumb then. I was dumb enough to take all the **** thrown at me and not just from leadership, either.
I don't let it eat away at me, but it's only been a year. Ask me again next eon.
I certainly don't blame God for my ride on the short bus, so I'm not sure what you mean there. I haven't seen any examples of anyone blaming God for theirs either, not that I can recall anyway.
Guys......every time you post about the *truth* all I can see is my poor brother and sister in Christ being destroyed by that very same mouth that was speaking the truth to you.....these sickos committed atrocities against our friends and families and yet you wanna still sing their praises....yuck
The thing IS....twi is STILL destroying people.
As of a few months back they were still covering for a pedophile...trying to intimidate the victim and the mother into not pressing charges.
The evil of twi is alive and well....and it is our responsibility to keep shouting the warning as long as there is breath left in our bodies...
Contrary to your allegations of us being dumb or foolishly beating a dead horse....Confronting evil and warning others of the snare set before them, cutting the ties that bind the captives are all noble, honorable, and necessary undertakings.
It is our responsibility, our duty to not turn a blind eye to the evil, or pretend that it didn`t/doesn`t exist .....though I understand it IS tempting to do so in order to still be able to feel just a littlebit special about ourselves in good conscience.
Kindda tough to feel that same old pride when one finally understands that they once participated in supporting great evil...eh?
Yes, I was one of those who believed what the Way taught me. I was “meek’ by the TWI definition.I thought it was God’s One True Household with the Truth. I supported the ministry in every way I knew to until the cracks in my life began to get too dangerous to ignore. Yup, I was one of the dumb ones Allen talks of–so was hubby, for that matter.
Now I no longer support TWI. While I knew many great people over the years, most of the warm fuzzies pretty much got drowned out due to the mark and avoid doctrine. I saw how easy it was to use the Word to mangle people to get your own way. I saw far more love in my natural man family than in the TWI household, or in the ex TWI folk I contacted after we finally left( I’m not talking about any GSC folk here.)Some folk that I dearly loved who left during the 89( for the most part still big PFAl followers) exodus seemed to have an attitude of “We knew what was going on, you should have left like we did, you big dumb nut.†Warm welcome, that.
Having experienced all this non love, plus the non love I saw in the church my family once belonged to, I got to thinking deep thoughts about salvation, sin, the perfection of God’s word... In my personal life I experienced several deaths and finally saw the reality of the type of care my older brother(mentally ill) required, rather than some TWI sound bite.I read lots of books. I exposed myself to non TWI ideas.
I realized I didn’t want to raise my kids in a ministry or church– I wanted them to grow up and make healthy decisions about such things, not decisions based on fear of displeasing god, or getting spiritual consequences or going to hell. I wanted them to be able to recognize good people and people you can’t trust, whether they had the ‘correct’ Bible label or not.
In other words–I changed! I changed a lot. I was no longer that college girl PFAL grad who loved TWI and TWI doctrine. I was someone a lot different from that girl. Why wouldn’t my decisions, thoughts, feelings etc about a ministry be different now?
I’m more than twice the age of that girl. And I have to say, during the years I was ‘in’ I did not allow my thoughts to stray too far from Way beliefs, nor did I ever sit down and really think about such things. Often I was too busy doing the busy work of the ministry for much reflection, anyway.
Why what made no sense? A position that no one on this board is taking? That, my fellow midwesterner, is what a strawman fallacy is
By your following statement
quote:
Does that mean all English is full of holes? Does that mean that all schools are evil? Most would agree the answer is No and they would be corect. Somehow when it comes to the Bible the same logic seems to be lost.
You imply that someone is taking the position that corruptness of leadership = invalidity of doctrine (or even the bible) by your linking the English teacher example with the "lost logic".
quote:
but if someone thought it was full of holes due to as he stated higher ups turning out to be corrupt. then that would make no sense.
Right, it would make no sense, but since no one is making that claim, bringing it up in the fashion you did implies that those who believe that the bible is "full of holes" do so due to a perceived corruption of TWI leaders. That is a strawman fallacious argument: attacking a position that has not been made.
Not what you meant? Okay. But that is what you said.
Rascal, I don't really connect 'thankful for things learnt' with 'praising twi'!
I am being honest in saying that myself and selina are thankful for what we learnt and are still enjoying 21 years of marriage, maybe because we're still 'moving the Word' and I know that remark probably leaves me wide open but the truth is even we have said we would not still be together if we weren't doing what we're doing.
We sold our home to go 'in-res',I have been assaulted,we have had our names trashed before family members..we're over it, but that doesn't mean stopping warning people about twi.
For the sake of getting people saved I would direct them to a pentecostal church before I directed them twi way.
Not a problem Allan, I am not criticizing your apreciation for what you have learned. SOME of it was ok....I myself am still sorting the wheat from the chaff...
Sometimes when I am writing I address several ideas at once without drawing a line of distinction.
2nd James wants to critisize us for being disgusted with twi after becoming aware of the heinous acts that ol vp n craig perpetrated on our unsuspecting families.....
Ya know....it is like having a favorite restauraunt and you have been dragging all of your friends co workers, family to it for decades....everyone you know eats there...you don`t bother ever ever even trying ANY other restauraunt or type of foods becauise you like THIS particular one so well....and every one KNOWS it is simply the *best* .... n then one day you don a pair of glasses and realize that the little bits of what you thought were minced onion, have really been maggots on your burger all along......upon further investigation you find out that the food is being prepared in an disgustingly unsanitary manner as well, and you begin to realise that all of those stomache bugs and flue symptoms that you have been suffering from are due to salmonella and ecolli ingested at this place.
You TRUSTED these people to prepare wholesome nutritious food for your consumption...you paid them VERY well to provide you with the quality food that the menu promised....and you find out that they have been providing substandard spoiled food, that has caused you and your family great discomfort.
Now what do you do? Continue to endorse this restauraunt with your former exuberance because you once believed that the food was good?
(Is this not what James is advocating?)
Oh he ll no, you report them to the co health dept....you tell all of your friends that there are maggots in the food, and you find yourself a different restaurant to eat at.
You might have to try a few to find one that suits your particular tastes....some folks get adventurous and try different types of restaurants...some even begin to eat at home, because they don`t dare trust food preperation any where.
Some folks just get take out from the same old restaurant, figuring as long as they aren`t IN that actual building, that they will still find the quality food that they thought once was served....
It is very sad to see family and friends ignoring our dire warnings and continuing to troop into the same restaurant to pay exorbident prices for spoiled food that has little of no nutritional value because they have been told by the restaurant manager that they might as well learn to LIKE the anemic contaminated food because there is not ANY thing else out there.
The restaurant manager and the people who profit from the unwholesome practices, are livid that we DARE criticize the place, and threaten daily, any whom have the nerve to do so....but the only ones that they can really hurt anymore is those who actually come into the place.
I am here to say ...*Pssst, hey buddy, there are maggots in your sandwitch....there are plenty of other places in town to get a decent burger*
N then I meet someone else who says *no KIDDING? I found a wad of hair in MY food*...and the next guy says..*dang I thought I was the ONLY one...my waiter sneezed blowing boogers into MY meal*....and so we compare horror stories affirming our resolve of the necessity to warn others....
Of course this seems to really upset people whom still want to believe the meal they ingested was wholesome...
It also seems to disturb people who own franchises of this restaurant ...as they don`t want people turned off from their menu`s I guess.
Anyway, maybe they don`t want us beating the dead horse any more because they are waiting, and as soon as no one is looking, they are going to process and serve the poor putrid beast, passing it off to unsuspecting customers as filet mignion (sp?).
Well, I'll never look at Filet Mignon quite the same ever again..
But you're right.. "Ptomaine Palace" is still alive (but not well), busy hawking its wares to the FEW that don't have internet access, or those who do not much more of a choice (staff mainly).
Still raises its ugly head out of the mire once in a while. Look at the nice pick of the week "endorsement" they tried to use recently.
Trying to manufacture more growth? They've gotta be kidding.
Gads, they don't need more sales efforts, they need a new product line.
What KILLS me (well no not really, but ALMOST) is that at different times through the years....there have been many well meaning folks with better eye sight, or who offered to lend me their glasses for a closer look ... who tried to gingerly point out that the *onions* were still squirming....but when I attempted to question my waitress...I was promptly distracted with offers of desert, or a drink....once my attention was redirected, I would generally forget about the maggots.
How in the world did they manage to get me to ignore the stench, the putrid taste, all of the evidence my senses where sending that there was something unwholesome about my meal?
Rascal..if you think I support TWI...& its attrocities..you're outa your mind...I'm merely stating that we're ALL guilty of having fully supported the TWI & its doctrinal positions way back when & now sn't it peculiar the l80 degree swing so many of us have taken in being vehemently opposed to the entire baby & its bathwater...that's all I'm pointing out...two states of being SURE in our own personal lives..
Ya know them more I read the responses of so many of you..I realize the two totally different perspectives many of us come from...one "WC" perspective in which you signed into "the TWI army" and in doing so saw many of the cuplits first hand...the other being "on the field" so to speak..some of us Twiggie leaders..some just followers..& all of us having either wonderful Godly people who sincerely tried to help us..others having belligerant WC's who ruled with an iron fist...both positions are vastly different..I come from the latter position & had both good & bad WC's exerting their force over us.
We beat this dead horse (be it WC good or evil..or VP LCM & da Horney "hand" & who ever you didn't like or bow down to..& I say "what's the use"???? Where's it getting any of us..? Aren't we to love one another...aren't there enough of us "left" from this ministry to simply give ourselves to & instead we waste our time beating this DEAD DEAD DEAD beaten horse 39 stripes save one over & over so to WARN OTHERES? yeh right.. BUNK I say...we who are beating them are still resntful & hurt & full of hatred towards what they perpetuated...& yet we can forgive & move on...honest..
Satori..sorry I irk you so...your problem my friend, as I love you with the love of God & mean no harm to you..I pray God's judgement on you is merciful! Much much pain in this cafe..if you ask me.
Heyya James, wanna borrow my glasses for a sec? Just kidding;-)
I personally consider it *LOVE* to warn people of the snare that is hidden, set to entrap the unwarey.
Jesus himself called the pharasees and moneychanges, and anyone else who used or harmed folks in God`s name....horrible viscious names...he warned people of the dangers presented by those who *looked good on the outside but contained death on the inside*
That was our ministry founder and top leaders my friends ...sorry, but I have NO love or respect for those who so callously destroyed in God`s name....I will reserve that and my compassion for the victims of these animals.
I thank God that there are people who WERE willing to continue to speak of the atrocities...though they were roundly criticized for their candor.....else I would have never gotten off of that hampster wheel of rushing pointlessly in frantic circles, no matter how much effort I exerted, never arriving at my destination.
Those folks who were beating the dead horse at that time, finally set me free in my thinking.
It is my prayer that they will continue to do so for as long as there is one single adherent to twi thinking still enslaved.
We beat this dead horse (be it WC good or evil..or VP LCM & da Horney "hand" & who ever you didn't like or bow down to..& I say "what's the use"???? Where's it getting any of us..? Aren't we to love one another...aren't there enough of us "left" from this ministry to simply give ourselves to & instead we waste our time beating this DEAD DEAD DEAD beaten horse 39 stripes save one over & over so to WARN OTHERES? yeh right.. BUNK I say...we who are beating them are still resntful & hurt & full of hatred towards what they perpetuated...& yet we can forgive & move on...honest..
________________________________________________
Now James I know you think that the horse is dead,dead,dead and the bones are picked clean but if you look down there at the bottom right foot you will see that there is still a little bit left to beat. :)-->
That supposedly dead pile of equine bones is still running classes, collecting "abundant sharing" and lauding men's opinions above the God they claim to worship.
Warm fuzzies about the people? Oh yeah....me too, definatly.
I just don`t equate the wonderfull people with the ministry.
I know a wonderfull spiritual woman who teaches occasionally at the mormon church.
It is the spirit of God that works in her to provide such heart and insight....it doesn`t make her church a place that I would be comfortable in.
Don`t you see?
It was the spirit of God that worked in individual people...it was twi, that hijacked their tallents and hid behind them ...they were enabled to preform great evil.... because what the REST of the people saw was the honest christians that brought their gifts and spirituality WITH them.
I have seen this in churches since leaving as well...you have a couple of really strong genuine chrisitians who love and inspire people, but behind the scenes, you have the decons and the board members who can be quite corrupt and cruel.
As with twi, it doesn`t inspire me with any respect for their denomination, or the leaders whom use the believers as shields to mask their activities, nor their leaders whom use these dear folks, their tallent and their status in the community to improve the prestige of their church.
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Ham
Problem is, the horse is not dead. It refuses to die.
It still promotes the same kind of nonsense, same kind of abuse, only worse than before. More blatant, more devilish. So what do you do with a rotten, stinking, controlling, thieving, devilish, conscienceless horse that refuses to die?
Oh well, its a gruesome job, but somebody has to do it I guess..
I have nothing but the highest admiration for these people, even to this day.
At the least, I feel pity for them. If they are still busy raking God's people over hot coals, I think they deserve some (continued) contempt.
I think most of us woke up, and found what we were "sold" was not all it was cracked up to be.
Nor was a lot of it "the Word". For me, it took YEARS of failed efforts before coming to this conclusion. Not an extreme change after all, at least to me.
Personally, all I saw was talk. Maybe a good talk, but just... talk. I don't discount the Lord's ability, I question man's.
Years of dedicated, loving effort, and I never saw anybody raise even a stinking dog from the dead. No walking on water, no this, no that- but THAT was "available". When it did NOT happen, "well, results are not guaranteed".
What I observed: any question about "where's the beef?" was artfully assigned to the category of "seeking for signs". "Bad, bad Thomas. you oughta know better.."
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Cowgirl
Very good point!
Cowgirl
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Ham
A lot of us took the same stinking beatings from "them", over, and over, and over..
If you ask "why don't you just get over it?" I say, you've got to be kidding. Nobody ever really gets over it.
For me, it was over twenty two years invested in that rats nest. Doing more and more, just hoping it would finally click in or something..
Twenty two years of wasted efforts are just not going to go away. But I am "getting on with my life", believe it or not..
Now they would LOVE to do the same, with my kids. They'd receive them with open arms, and smiles and giggles..
One instance, they desperately tried.
Friggin bastards.
Can't say this is all so irrelevant to today's life.
I wish it was.
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Belle
Let me first say I agree 100% with Ham. In fact his post is almost word for word what I was planning to post.
:D-->
Sure, truth can stand on it's own and no one is saying that it can't...least I don't think so. BUT truth is NOT standing at TWI and it is not being taught there either. If people really want and need the truth, they need to go somewhere else or they will end up as abused, hurt and screwed as we are/were.
Horneyhands is still at it! That's why I post about him. People should be warned and made aware of how utterly evil, lying, sneaking, conniving and devilish he and his wife are.
In fact, I had an odd meeting with a gal in a bookstore not too long ago who's sister had run into some people in TWI and had attended one of their functions. I told her about TWI and directed her here. Since I don't know the girl, I don't know what came of it, but I'm darn glad there's a GSpot to warn people.
Those in charge are still promoting, living, teaching and condoning the actions of craig and vee pee. They're still teaching craig's book for Christ's sake!! They are still treating people terribly wrong. It's NOT a Godly organization and people need to be warned!
As for beliefs....well, not everyone believes that everything TWI taught was correct. Many people have stepped back from simply believing something because someone told them it was true and decided it wasn't true and found that they actually don't believe anything the Bible says as true. Others believe the Bible is true, but not most of what TWI taught. Some still believe everything TWI taught is true. To each his own....I actually understand and agree with what WhiteDove posted earlier about this.
;)--> You can't put people into extreme classifications because it just doesn't work that way.
I think when people leave they tend to re-evaluate everything they were taught in TWI, which is a good thing. Then they come to their own conclusion regarding what they hold on to and what they don't. Every person is different when it comes to this. Me? I'm still re-evaluating.
:D-->
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Ham
"What about THE PEOPLE?"
Personally, I don't think God Almighty is quite as bound and gagged as we think.
"If its to be" its not necessarily up to me.
Sure, I do my part.. but I'm not so damned egotistical anymore to think that somehow the whole stinking universe is waiting for me to act, or something..
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Allan
Second James, well said !! I wasn't dumb enough to take ALL the .... thrown at me from leader.... flingers in twi, I wasn't dumb enough to let it 'eat away' at me for eons afterwards and I'm certainly not dumb enough to blame God for my dumbness !!
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satori001
Well 2nd James, if I am allowed to speak I think history will bear out the label's warnings. Lots of history.
God, as we understand Him anyway, is not a liar. I have to wonder what His view of people who do lie on His behalf might be. Those liars, with presumably the best of intentions, still manage to muck things up quite a lot of the time. Hindsight shows us, often enough, that their ostensible intentions, er, weren't best after all.
Don't annoy me, 2nd James.
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Belle
Well, Allan I guess you'll just have to call me dumb then. I was dumb enough to take all the **** thrown at me and not just from leadership, either.
I don't let it eat away at me, but it's only been a year. Ask me again next eon.
I certainly don't blame God for my ride on the short bus, so I'm not sure what you mean there. I haven't seen any examples of anyone blaming God for theirs either, not that I can recall anyway.
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Ham
Who's saying VP LCM and Horneyhands WERE the messenger?
History kinda repudiates that claim.
VP, LCM and Horneyhands may have been pretenders, con artists, plagiarists- but no, not the messenger- in my opinion.
I think in a lot of ways, they were like some of the worst kings in Israel. They got cut out of the book..
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rascal
Guys......every time you post about the *truth* all I can see is my poor brother and sister in Christ being destroyed by that very same mouth that was speaking the truth to you.....these sickos committed atrocities against our friends and families and yet you wanna still sing their praises....yuck
The thing IS....twi is STILL destroying people.
As of a few months back they were still covering for a pedophile...trying to intimidate the victim and the mother into not pressing charges.
The evil of twi is alive and well....and it is our responsibility to keep shouting the warning as long as there is breath left in our bodies...
Contrary to your allegations of us being dumb or foolishly beating a dead horse....Confronting evil and warning others of the snare set before them, cutting the ties that bind the captives are all noble, honorable, and necessary undertakings.
It is our responsibility, our duty to not turn a blind eye to the evil, or pretend that it didn`t/doesn`t exist .....though I understand it IS tempting to do so in order to still be able to feel just a littlebit special about ourselves in good conscience.
Kindda tough to feel that same old pride when one finally understands that they once participated in supporting great evil...eh?
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Bramble
Yes, I was one of those who believed what the Way taught me. I was “meek’ by the TWI definition.I thought it was God’s One True Household with the Truth. I supported the ministry in every way I knew to until the cracks in my life began to get too dangerous to ignore. Yup, I was one of the dumb ones Allen talks of–so was hubby, for that matter.
Now I no longer support TWI. While I knew many great people over the years, most of the warm fuzzies pretty much got drowned out due to the mark and avoid doctrine. I saw how easy it was to use the Word to mangle people to get your own way. I saw far more love in my natural man family than in the TWI household, or in the ex TWI folk I contacted after we finally left( I’m not talking about any GSC folk here.)Some folk that I dearly loved who left during the 89( for the most part still big PFAl followers) exodus seemed to have an attitude of “We knew what was going on, you should have left like we did, you big dumb nut.†Warm welcome, that.
Having experienced all this non love, plus the non love I saw in the church my family once belonged to, I got to thinking deep thoughts about salvation, sin, the perfection of God’s word... In my personal life I experienced several deaths and finally saw the reality of the type of care my older brother(mentally ill) required, rather than some TWI sound bite.I read lots of books. I exposed myself to non TWI ideas.
I realized I didn’t want to raise my kids in a ministry or church– I wanted them to grow up and make healthy decisions about such things, not decisions based on fear of displeasing god, or getting spiritual consequences or going to hell. I wanted them to be able to recognize good people and people you can’t trust, whether they had the ‘correct’ Bible label or not.
In other words–I changed! I changed a lot. I was no longer that college girl PFAL grad who loved TWI and TWI doctrine. I was someone a lot different from that girl. Why wouldn’t my decisions, thoughts, feelings etc about a ministry be different now?
I’m more than twice the age of that girl. And I have to say, during the years I was ‘in’ I did not allow my thoughts to stray too far from Way beliefs, nor did I ever sit down and really think about such things. Often I was too busy doing the busy work of the ministry for much reflection, anyway.
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Oakspear
By your following statement
You imply that someone is taking the position that corruptness of leadership = invalidity of doctrine (or even the bible) by your linking the English teacher example with the "lost logic". Right, it would make no sense, but since no one is making that claim, bringing it up in the fashion you did implies that those who believe that the bible is "full of holes" do so due to a perceived corruption of TWI leaders. That is a strawman fallacious argument: attacking a position that has not been made.Not what you meant? Okay. But that is what you said.
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Allan
Rascal, I don't really connect 'thankful for things learnt' with 'praising twi'!
I am being honest in saying that myself and selina are thankful for what we learnt and are still enjoying 21 years of marriage, maybe because we're still 'moving the Word' and I know that remark probably leaves me wide open but the truth is even we have said we would not still be together if we weren't doing what we're doing.
We sold our home to go 'in-res',I have been assaulted,we have had our names trashed before family members..we're over it, but that doesn't mean stopping warning people about twi.
For the sake of getting people saved I would direct them to a pentecostal church before I directed them twi way.
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rascal
Not a problem Allan, I am not criticizing your apreciation for what you have learned. SOME of it was ok....I myself am still sorting the wheat from the chaff...
Sometimes when I am writing I address several ideas at once without drawing a line of distinction.
2nd James wants to critisize us for being disgusted with twi after becoming aware of the heinous acts that ol vp n craig perpetrated on our unsuspecting families.....
Ya know....it is like having a favorite restauraunt and you have been dragging all of your friends co workers, family to it for decades....everyone you know eats there...you don`t bother ever ever even trying ANY other restauraunt or type of foods becauise you like THIS particular one so well....and every one KNOWS it is simply the *best* .... n then one day you don a pair of glasses and realize that the little bits of what you thought were minced onion, have really been maggots on your burger all along......upon further investigation you find out that the food is being prepared in an disgustingly unsanitary manner as well, and you begin to realise that all of those stomache bugs and flue symptoms that you have been suffering from are due to salmonella and ecolli ingested at this place.
You TRUSTED these people to prepare wholesome nutritious food for your consumption...you paid them VERY well to provide you with the quality food that the menu promised....and you find out that they have been providing substandard spoiled food, that has caused you and your family great discomfort.
Now what do you do? Continue to endorse this restauraunt with your former exuberance because you once believed that the food was good?
(Is this not what James is advocating?)
Oh he ll no, you report them to the co health dept....you tell all of your friends that there are maggots in the food, and you find yourself a different restaurant to eat at.
You might have to try a few to find one that suits your particular tastes....some folks get adventurous and try different types of restaurants...some even begin to eat at home, because they don`t dare trust food preperation any where.
Some folks just get take out from the same old restaurant, figuring as long as they aren`t IN that actual building, that they will still find the quality food that they thought once was served....
It is very sad to see family and friends ignoring our dire warnings and continuing to troop into the same restaurant to pay exorbident prices for spoiled food that has little of no nutritional value because they have been told by the restaurant manager that they might as well learn to LIKE the anemic contaminated food because there is not ANY thing else out there.
The restaurant manager and the people who profit from the unwholesome practices, are livid that we DARE criticize the place, and threaten daily, any whom have the nerve to do so....but the only ones that they can really hurt anymore is those who actually come into the place.
I am here to say ...*Pssst, hey buddy, there are maggots in your sandwitch....there are plenty of other places in town to get a decent burger*
N then I meet someone else who says *no KIDDING? I found a wad of hair in MY food*...and the next guy says..*dang I thought I was the ONLY one...my waiter sneezed blowing boogers into MY meal*....and so we compare horror stories affirming our resolve of the necessity to warn others....
Of course this seems to really upset people whom still want to believe the meal they ingested was wholesome...
It also seems to disturb people who own franchises of this restaurant ...as they don`t want people turned off from their menu`s I guess.
Anyway, maybe they don`t want us beating the dead horse any more because they are waiting, and as soon as no one is looking, they are going to process and serve the poor putrid beast, passing it off to unsuspecting customers as filet mignion (sp?).
Bon apetite....
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Belle
Rascal, I'm sending you the cleaning bill for my screen and keyboard.
:D-->
These eggs don't look so appealing anymore, but I shan't soon forget your analogy!
:P--> Very good analogy!
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Ham
Well, I'll never look at Filet Mignon quite the same ever again..
But you're right.. "Ptomaine Palace" is still alive (but not well), busy hawking its wares to the FEW that don't have internet access, or those who do not much more of a choice (staff mainly).
Still raises its ugly head out of the mire once in a while. Look at the nice pick of the week "endorsement" they tried to use recently.
Trying to manufacture more growth? They've gotta be kidding.
Gads, they don't need more sales efforts, they need a new product line.
Can't make a cash cow out of a dead horse..
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rascal
Oh I`m SORRY Belle, was that a bit too graphic?
Lol, sorry bout that, I will make restitution...
Ain`t it the truth Mr. Hamm?
What KILLS me (well no not really, but ALMOST) is that at different times through the years....there have been many well meaning folks with better eye sight, or who offered to lend me their glasses for a closer look ... who tried to gingerly point out that the *onions* were still squirming....but when I attempted to question my waitress...I was promptly distracted with offers of desert, or a drink....once my attention was redirected, I would generally forget about the maggots.
How in the world did they manage to get me to ignore the stench, the putrid taste, all of the evidence my senses where sending that there was something unwholesome about my meal?
p.s. *Ptomaine Palace* hee hee
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Second James
Rascal..if you think I support TWI...& its attrocities..you're outa your mind...I'm merely stating that we're ALL guilty of having fully supported the TWI & its doctrinal positions way back when & now sn't it peculiar the l80 degree swing so many of us have taken in being vehemently opposed to the entire baby & its bathwater...that's all I'm pointing out...two states of being SURE in our own personal lives..
Ya know them more I read the responses of so many of you..I realize the two totally different perspectives many of us come from...one "WC" perspective in which you signed into "the TWI army" and in doing so saw many of the cuplits first hand...the other being "on the field" so to speak..some of us Twiggie leaders..some just followers..& all of us having either wonderful Godly people who sincerely tried to help us..others having belligerant WC's who ruled with an iron fist...both positions are vastly different..I come from the latter position & had both good & bad WC's exerting their force over us.
We beat this dead horse (be it WC good or evil..or VP LCM & da Horney "hand" & who ever you didn't like or bow down to..& I say "what's the use"???? Where's it getting any of us..? Aren't we to love one another...aren't there enough of us "left" from this ministry to simply give ourselves to & instead we waste our time beating this DEAD DEAD DEAD beaten horse 39 stripes save one over & over so to WARN OTHERES? yeh right.. BUNK I say...we who are beating them are still resntful & hurt & full of hatred towards what they perpetuated...& yet we can forgive & move on...honest..
Satori..sorry I irk you so...your problem my friend, as I love you with the love of God & mean no harm to you..I pray God's judgement on you is merciful! Much much pain in this cafe..if you ask me.
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rascal
Heyya James, wanna borrow my glasses for a sec? Just kidding;-)
I personally consider it *LOVE* to warn people of the snare that is hidden, set to entrap the unwarey.
Jesus himself called the pharasees and moneychanges, and anyone else who used or harmed folks in God`s name....horrible viscious names...he warned people of the dangers presented by those who *looked good on the outside but contained death on the inside*
That was our ministry founder and top leaders my friends ...sorry, but I have NO love or respect for those who so callously destroyed in God`s name....I will reserve that and my compassion for the victims of these animals.
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rascal
I thank God that there are people who WERE willing to continue to speak of the atrocities...though they were roundly criticized for their candor.....else I would have never gotten off of that hampster wheel of rushing pointlessly in frantic circles, no matter how much effort I exerted, never arriving at my destination.
Those folks who were beating the dead horse at that time, finally set me free in my thinking.
It is my prayer that they will continue to do so for as long as there is one single adherent to twi thinking still enslaved.
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rascal
I guess it is all in ones perspective James.
There is an art to presenting ones own without offending or discrediting others valid points, something that I obviously need to work on.
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WhiteDove
________________________________________________
Now James I know you think that the horse is dead,dead,dead and the bones are picked clean but if you look down there at the bottom right foot you will see that there is still a little bit left to beat.
:)-->
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Oakspear
That supposedly dead pile of equine bones is still running classes, collecting "abundant sharing" and lauding men's opinions above the God they claim to worship.
Beat away, I say
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LornaDoone
GOOD ANALOGY RASCAL, I AGREE
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