As for me, I believe the Bible is God's Word. I don't believe Weirwille's word or Martindale's word or anyone else's word is God's Word.
I think there was a truckload of false doctrine taught by TWI over the years. And some truth.
I feel badly for those who have decided that since the ministry was full of holes, there is no God.
Works for me. and it's a lot simpler than TWI made it out to be. I started concentrating on the teachings of Jesus, which were kinda obscured by the teachings of Martindale et al. It takes a lot of work to read the Bible without "rightly dividing it according to useage and holding it forth in your mind in the exceedingly great and glorious light of the present truth". But it can be done.
I feel bad for how many people I helped lead to the legalism that is the way, instead of leading them to God's grace and a real relationship with Jesus Christ as their REAL Lord. I still believe in God and His Word, but have had to switch to a different Bible version due to too much waybrain.
Is this a "don't toss the baby with the bathwater" type thread?
I gotta tell ya, for all of the earnest, heartfelt, powerful, pure of heart believing of God and His Word that went on (according to you and others), TWI and its adherents sure got left twisting in the wind.
Some of us might look back and say, sure, God is still God, and we're right back to where we were before we heard of TWI - wondering exactly what God's role is in our lives.
Divine intervention (on account of grace, mercy, prayer, etc) doesn't seem to be what its cracked up to be by all of you well-intentioned, baby-in-the-bathwater, TWI sentimentalitarians*.
* "sentimentalitarian:" one whose nostalgic recollection of the "good old days" over-rules some pretty obvious common sense questions we ought to ask about what we were actually taught.
Divine intervention (on account of grace, mercy, prayer, etc) doesn't seem to be what its cracked up to be by all of you well-intentioned, baby-in-the-bathwater, TWI sentimentalitarians.
I was going to repond to Sartori's comment, but I noticed that the "quote" was actually different from the way it appears in the post. Note what replaces "Intervention" here. I wonder what happened, since there's no mark of editing in Sartori's post?
Anyway, sentimentality has nothing to do with it. If you learned true Word, you learned true Word. If you didn't, you didn't. Those who "hold the baby" are in the former category; those who "throw it out" are in the latter.
DOESN'T IT AMAZE ALOT OF YOU HOW MANY OF US ARE SO EAGER TO PRONOUNCE SENTENCE ON THE MINISTRY THAT WE SO ADAMANTLY DEFENDED YEARS AGO?
Well.... yes and no, and maybe something in between.
First of all, I think it is NOT the same ministry that we adamantly defended years ago.
Or at least what we perceived it to be, or were led to believe.
Personally, I saw a lot of good that I attributed to "the ministry" that did not belong to said ministry to begin with. It was the good works of well meaning people, and I doubt it had anything to do with the ministry to begin with.
Especially any doctrine worth a crap. It was connived out of, stolen from, plagiarized, or "borrowed" if you will, from intelligent, and at times not so intelligent, well meaning people.
Somehow, it mostly ended up with a brand on it: American Christian Press.
Personally, I don't know anybody who wouldn't be rather upset about somebody selling them stolen property..
The thief performs TWO thefts:
1. From the original owner
2. From the buyer.
I wouldn't exactly call that being extreme.
My opinion, they did it to themselves.
I think a lot of it is what they evolved to, from what they were perceived as.
I think they went from covered-up evil to unbridled evil. "They" are the ones that have gone from one extreme to another, not me.
You guys can beat on your infallibility drums all you want, but Biblatry (or "Bible-worship") contributed just as much to the Way's corruption and bondage as anything else.
DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES....SINCE THE HIGHER UPS THAT TAUGHT US THE WORD YEARS BACK (WHICH WE DEFENDED TO THE HILT)TURNED OUT TO BE SOOOOOOOOOOOO CORUPT?
No, I think that the bible is full of holes because that's the way it appears to me, not because of corrupt teachers. I do admit that the corruption and hypocrasy of TWI leaders is what motivated me to start questioning.
A question for ya..did Jesus believe in believing ?
Matt 21:22.
I still think PFAL is basically OK. JC not God, Dead = not alive, SIT, no condemnation, incorruptible seed, it's all good, but we were taught that during the dark ages some monk monkeyed with the text...well, in TWI some monkeying was done to the simplicity of God as a loving Father.
We were taught stuff like if you don't confess sins accrued after salvation then you were out of fellowship and God wouldn't bless you. So it became a 'walk of works' just to keep up with these stray sins. Not buying it anymore.
When Clinton was pres and Chelsea was living at home, she could help herself to whatever she wanted in the refridgerator. The secret service guy guarding her couldn't. The Russian ambassador to the US couldn't. Al Gore couldn't.
Well, IF God is our Father, then we got a few privileges. Let's say I, being human, have a blind spot in my understanding and it NEVER GOES AWAY for my whole life. Does God stop loving me? Can I not bless anybody? Can I not get prayers answered until I get "reinstated"? I just don't think it works like that. So I agree with whoever said God is God and people are people.
Simply because at the time, the evil was hidden from us and we were unaware of it`s presence (we were decieved).
Why are we eager to pass sentance now?
It is very simple, now the EVIL has been exposed for all to see....It is our privelege and responsibility to make others aware of the danger.
Like Jesus and the Pharisees, Jesus and the money changers, Jesus and ANYBODY who hurt God`s people not to mention little children.....we confront evil untill it backs down and slinks away with tale tucked tightly between the legs.
What *I* have difficulty understanding ... is how folks are still able to enjoy warm fuzzies for a ministry who`s top leaders were seducing, at times reportedly drugging and even rapeing our sisters, destroying families and forcing abortions, covering for pedophiles...... (to name a few)in between their sessions of sharing the *truth* with the rest of us...or how one could have ANY confidence or trust in those leaders interpretation of the scriptures.
Damn right we are eager to pronounce sentence...hopefully though, they will have to answere to a higher court someday for the ultimate sentencing.
[quote What I'm asking is this...."DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES.... No
So thats my q...will this Bible that set so many of us "free" still work in your life in spite of the corruptness of our former leaders?
Yes, Because it is not dependent on peoples actions. Truth is Truth it is not corruptible.
James I dont get it either it seems clear that it is two seperate issues. In the news this week is a story of a teacher having sex with her students. So does that make the school itself bad? Does that mean the English she taught is wrong? Does that mean all English is full of holes? Does that mean that all schools are evil? Most would agree the answer is No and they would be corect. Somehow when it comes to the Bible the same logic seems to be lost.
While I will admit to the possibility that there are people who decided that the bible was "full of holes" only because of the misdeeds of TWI "leadership", you don't see too many of them here.
Most GSers who no longer subscribe to biblical inerrancy do so because of careful study, or thoughtful introspection, not due to a fit of pique over extramarital affairs, drambuie, or spittle ;)-->.
You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "attacking a strawman". No one in this thread is making the case that you are arguing against. Your example of the schoolteacher is a false analogy, since it does not compare with the actual beliefs of those who have decided that "the bible is full of holes".
I was going to repond to Sartori's comment, but I noticed that the "quote" was actually different from the way it appears in the post. Note what replaces "Intervention" here. I wonder what happened, since there's no mark of editing in Sartori's post?
George -- if you change a post within 10 minutes of originally posting it, it shows up changed, and no *edit* notice at the bottom.
At least that is the way it works on my computer, and I have used that feature many times to edit speeling misteaks. :)-->
I read lots of different Bible versions, read and listen to many Christians. Also have joined a number of different churches in the almost 10 years since being marked and avoided.
And it's been like Bre'r Rabbit, I am so glad to be thrown into the briar patch of the world.
I tend to agree with WhiteDove, in that I see it as two separate issues as well.
On one hand you have people promoting a *ministry*, and on the other you have their *product* that they are promoting. I found the *salesmen* to be corrupt, but I still think the product is good.
Since the salesmen were corrupt, and their product good (to me) I chose to dismiss the salesmen, and keep the product. Some have obviously found the product to be flawed as well as the seller of it, but that is not my case.
I guess I am as guilty as the rest, of thinking that only ONE salesman could effectively sell me that product, and that I would buy it from no one else. Well -- I think differently now, hence my observation that I think this is two separate issues.
I used to defend the salesman, and the product quite vehemently, but anymore I use the product with no thought given to the man that *sold* me on it.
Don't know if this makes sense, but it is exactly what I feel about twi, and the Word.
Now -- if I were still *in*, I would be tossing out the product with the salesman. But perhaps that belongs in a different thread. :)-->
I have warm fuzzies about the good people that were in TWI,yes even the satooris and grouchos and long gones, I'd have a beer wit yo all any day of da week !
I just didn't get warm fuzzies over LCM.In fact one time when he was sharing in the Indiana chapel, he pulled his sleeve back to (inadvertantly)display a jewelled bracelet he was wearing and I nearly physically passed out, yes I absolutely believe serious devil spirits hanging around the joint.Interestingly enough, talking with Wayne Clapp about it recently, he said he had had similar experiences around LCM !
While I will admit to the possibility that there are people who decided that the bible was "full of holes" only because of the misdeeds of TWI "leadership", you don't see too many of them here.
Most GSers who no longer subscribe to biblical inerrancy do so because of careful study, or thoughtful introspection, not due to a fit of pique over extramarital affairs, drambuie, or spittle ;)-->.
You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "attacking a strawman". No one in this thread is making the case that you are arguing against. Your example of the schoolteacher is a false analogy, since it does not compare with the actual beliefs of those who have decided that "the bible is full of holes".
_______________________________________________
Oak
I have no idea why people here or elsewhere believe the things they do unless of coarse they share that information with me. I don't think I made any referance as to anyones reasons for their beliefs.
James asked the question:....Quote:
I guess what I'm saying is....DOESN'T IT AMAZE ALOT OF YOU HOW MANY OF US ARE SO EAGER TO PRONOUNCE SENTENCE ON THE MINISTRY THAT WE SO ADAMANTLY DEFENDED YEARS AGO? Yes.....I realize that alot of evil was done by the higher ups...& oh by no means should we condone such behavior...what I'm asking is this...."DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES....SINCE THE HIGHER UPS THAT TAUGHT US THE WORD YEARS BACK (WHICH WE DEFENDED TO THE HILT)TURNED OUT TO BE SOOOOOOOOOOOO CORUPT?
------------------------------------------------
To which my answer to his question was No I dont think it is full of holes for any reason, but if someone thought it was full of holes due to as he stated higher ups turning out to be corrupt. then that would make no sense.
As I said it is two seperate issues. My example was to explain why it makes no sense.
We have two teachers one a Bible teacher and one an English teacher. Both teach their subjects. Both engage in not so moral things between teaching. Both got caught. Some of the Bible that was taught was true . Some of the English that was taught was true. (this is a guess since I was not there but I'm asuming that it was so.) Their actions did not make either the Bible or English untrue. their actions were just that actions. What they taught stands or falls on its own merit.
So to answer the second part of his question which was Quote:
DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES....SINCE THE HIGHER UPS THAT TAUGHT US THE WORD YEARS BACK (WHICH WE DEFENDED TO THE HILT)TURNED OUT TO BE SOOOOOOOOOOOO CORUPT?
Quote:
------------------------------------------------
My answer was No it has nothing to do with it just like the teachers actions have nothing to do with the school or her English being true. It is two seperate issues.
Warm fuzzies about the people? Oh yeah....me too, definatly.
I just don`t equate the wonderfull people with the ministry.
I know a wonderfull spiritual woman who teaches occasionally at the mormon church.
It is the spirit of God that works in her to provide such heart and insight....it doesn`t make her church a place that I would be comfortable in.
Don`t you see?
It was the spirit of God that worked in individual people...it was twi, that hijacked their tallents and hid behind them ...they were enabled to preform great evil.... because what the REST of the people saw was the honest christians that brought their gifts and spirituality WITH them.
I have seen this in churches since leaving as well...you have a couple of really strong genuine chrisitians who love and inspire people, but behind the scenes, you have the decons and the board members who can be quite corrupt and cruel.
As with twi, it doesn`t inspire me with any respect for their denomination, or the leaders whom use the believers as shields to mask their activities, nor their leaders whom use these dear folks, their tallent and their status in the community to improve the prestige of their church.
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As for me, I believe the Bible is God's Word. I don't believe Weirwille's word or Martindale's word or anyone else's word is God's Word.
I think there was a truckload of false doctrine taught by TWI over the years. And some truth.
I feel badly for those who have decided that since the ministry was full of holes, there is no God.
Works for me. and it's a lot simpler than TWI made it out to be. I started concentrating on the teachings of Jesus, which were kinda obscured by the teachings of Martindale et al. It takes a lot of work to read the Bible without "rightly dividing it according to useage and holding it forth in your mind in the exceedingly great and glorious light of the present truth". But it can be done.
WG
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ToadFriend
Amen, Brother...people are people and GOD is GOD. Doesn't do us well in life to confuse the two ...
TF
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smurfette
I feel bad for how many people I helped lead to the legalism that is the way, instead of leading them to God's grace and a real relationship with Jesus Christ as their REAL Lord. I still believe in God and His Word, but have had to switch to a different Bible version due to too much waybrain.
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satori001
Is this a "don't toss the baby with the bathwater" type thread?
I gotta tell ya, for all of the earnest, heartfelt, powerful, pure of heart believing of God and His Word that went on (according to you and others), TWI and its adherents sure got left twisting in the wind.
Some of us might look back and say, sure, God is still God, and we're right back to where we were before we heard of TWI - wondering exactly what God's role is in our lives.
Divine intervention (on account of grace, mercy, prayer, etc) doesn't seem to be what its cracked up to be by all of you well-intentioned, baby-in-the-bathwater, TWI sentimentalitarians*.
* "sentimentalitarian:" one whose nostalgic recollection of the "good old days" over-rules some pretty obvious common sense questions we ought to ask about what we were actually taught.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I was going to repond to Sartori's comment, but I noticed that the "quote" was actually different from the way it appears in the post. Note what replaces "Intervention" here. I wonder what happened, since there's no mark of editing in Sartori's post?
Anyway, sentimentality has nothing to do with it. If you learned true Word, you learned true Word. If you didn't, you didn't. Those who "hold the baby" are in the former category; those who "throw it out" are in the latter.
George
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GeorgeStGeorge
Well, now what I wrote above is wrong!! Sartori must have been editing (or adding to) his post as I was replying. Weird!
George
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def59
I have switched versions as well because of waybrain.
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Ham
Well.... yes and no, and maybe something in between.
First of all, I think it is NOT the same ministry that we adamantly defended years ago.
Or at least what we perceived it to be, or were led to believe.
Personally, I saw a lot of good that I attributed to "the ministry" that did not belong to said ministry to begin with. It was the good works of well meaning people, and I doubt it had anything to do with the ministry to begin with.
Especially any doctrine worth a crap. It was connived out of, stolen from, plagiarized, or "borrowed" if you will, from intelligent, and at times not so intelligent, well meaning people.
Somehow, it mostly ended up with a brand on it: American Christian Press.
Personally, I don't know anybody who wouldn't be rather upset about somebody selling them stolen property..
The thief performs TWO thefts:
1. From the original owner
2. From the buyer.
I wouldn't exactly call that being extreme.
My opinion, they did it to themselves.
I think a lot of it is what they evolved to, from what they were perceived as.
I think they went from covered-up evil to unbridled evil. "They" are the ones that have gone from one extreme to another, not me.
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TheInvisibleDan
You guys can beat on your infallibility drums all you want, but Biblatry (or "Bible-worship") contributed just as much to the Way's corruption and bondage as anything else.
And it's still what keeps people there.
Danny
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Oakspear
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Allan
I believe I am better off for having learnt the 'good stuff' I did along with Selina whilst in TWI.
As in Johnny Lingos thread, plenty of miracles big and small that some are comforted by calling 'lucky, coincidental,able to be rationalised' etcc..
A question for ya..did Jesus believe in believing ?
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johniam
Matt 21:22.
I still think PFAL is basically OK. JC not God, Dead = not alive, SIT, no condemnation, incorruptible seed, it's all good, but we were taught that during the dark ages some monk monkeyed with the text...well, in TWI some monkeying was done to the simplicity of God as a loving Father.
We were taught stuff like if you don't confess sins accrued after salvation then you were out of fellowship and God wouldn't bless you. So it became a 'walk of works' just to keep up with these stray sins. Not buying it anymore.
When Clinton was pres and Chelsea was living at home, she could help herself to whatever she wanted in the refridgerator. The secret service guy guarding her couldn't. The Russian ambassador to the US couldn't. Al Gore couldn't.
Well, IF God is our Father, then we got a few privileges. Let's say I, being human, have a blind spot in my understanding and it NEVER GOES AWAY for my whole life. Does God stop loving me? Can I not bless anybody? Can I not get prayers answered until I get "reinstated"? I just don't think it works like that. So I agree with whoever said God is God and people are people.
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rascal
God is God, People are people AND evil is EEEVIL!
Why did we defend twi so strongly 2nd James?
Simply because at the time, the evil was hidden from us and we were unaware of it`s presence (we were decieved).
Why are we eager to pass sentance now?
It is very simple, now the EVIL has been exposed for all to see....It is our privelege and responsibility to make others aware of the danger.
Like Jesus and the Pharisees, Jesus and the money changers, Jesus and ANYBODY who hurt God`s people not to mention little children.....we confront evil untill it backs down and slinks away with tale tucked tightly between the legs.
Why would this be so difficult to understand?
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rascal
What *I* have difficulty understanding ... is how folks are still able to enjoy warm fuzzies for a ministry who`s top leaders were seducing, at times reportedly drugging and even rapeing our sisters, destroying families and forcing abortions, covering for pedophiles...... (to name a few)in between their sessions of sharing the *truth* with the rest of us...or how one could have ANY confidence or trust in those leaders interpretation of the scriptures.
Damn right we are eager to pronounce sentence...hopefully though, they will have to answere to a higher court someday for the ultimate sentencing.
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WhiteDove
[quote What I'm asking is this...."DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES.... No
So thats my q...will this Bible that set so many of us "free" still work in your life in spite of the corruptness of our former leaders?
Yes, Because it is not dependent on peoples actions. Truth is Truth it is not corruptible.
James I dont get it either it seems clear that it is two seperate issues. In the news this week is a story of a teacher having sex with her students. So does that make the school itself bad? Does that mean the English she taught is wrong? Does that mean all English is full of holes? Does that mean that all schools are evil? Most would agree the answer is No and they would be corect. Somehow when it comes to the Bible the same logic seems to be lost.
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Oakspear
White Dove:
While I will admit to the possibility that there are people who decided that the bible was "full of holes" only because of the misdeeds of TWI "leadership", you don't see too many of them here.
Most GSers who no longer subscribe to biblical inerrancy do so because of careful study, or thoughtful introspection, not due to a fit of pique over extramarital affairs, drambuie, or spittle
;)-->.
You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "attacking a strawman". No one in this thread is making the case that you are arguing against. Your example of the schoolteacher is a false analogy, since it does not compare with the actual beliefs of those who have decided that "the bible is full of holes".
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dmiller
George -- if you change a post within 10 minutes of originally posting it, it shows up changed, and no *edit* notice at the bottom.
At least that is the way it works on my computer, and I have used that feature many times to edit speeling misteaks.
:)-->
David
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Kit Sober
I read lots of different Bible versions, read and listen to many Christians. Also have joined a number of different churches in the almost 10 years since being marked and avoided.
And it's been like Bre'r Rabbit, I am so glad to be thrown into the briar patch of the world.
I have found that the Lord is most faithful.
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dmiller
I tend to agree with WhiteDove, in that I see it as two separate issues as well.
On one hand you have people promoting a *ministry*, and on the other you have their *product* that they are promoting. I found the *salesmen* to be corrupt, but I still think the product is good.
Since the salesmen were corrupt, and their product good (to me) I chose to dismiss the salesmen, and keep the product. Some have obviously found the product to be flawed as well as the seller of it, but that is not my case.
I guess I am as guilty as the rest, of thinking that only ONE salesman could effectively sell me that product, and that I would buy it from no one else. Well -- I think differently now, hence my observation that I think this is two separate issues.
I used to defend the salesman, and the product quite vehemently, but anymore I use the product with no thought given to the man that *sold* me on it.
Don't know if this makes sense, but it is exactly what I feel about twi, and the Word.
Now -- if I were still *in*, I would be tossing out the product with the salesman. But perhaps that belongs in a different thread.
:)-->
David
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Allan
I have warm fuzzies about the good people that were in TWI,yes even the satooris and grouchos and long gones, I'd have a beer wit yo all any day of da week !
I just didn't get warm fuzzies over LCM.In fact one time when he was sharing in the Indiana chapel, he pulled his sleeve back to (inadvertantly)display a jewelled bracelet he was wearing and I nearly physically passed out, yes I absolutely believe serious devil spirits hanging around the joint.Interestingly enough, talking with Wayne Clapp about it recently, he said he had had similar experiences around LCM !
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WhiteDove
_______________________________________________
Oak
I have no idea why people here or elsewhere believe the things they do unless of coarse they share that information with me. I don't think I made any referance as to anyones reasons for their beliefs.
James asked the question:....Quote:
I guess what I'm saying is....DOESN'T IT AMAZE ALOT OF YOU HOW MANY OF US ARE SO EAGER TO PRONOUNCE SENTENCE ON THE MINISTRY THAT WE SO ADAMANTLY DEFENDED YEARS AGO? Yes.....I realize that alot of evil was done by the higher ups...& oh by no means should we condone such behavior...what I'm asking is this...."DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES....SINCE THE HIGHER UPS THAT TAUGHT US THE WORD YEARS BACK (WHICH WE DEFENDED TO THE HILT)TURNED OUT TO BE SOOOOOOOOOOOO CORUPT?
------------------------------------------------
To which my answer to his question was No I dont think it is full of holes for any reason, but if someone thought it was full of holes due to as he stated higher ups turning out to be corrupt. then that would make no sense.
As I said it is two seperate issues. My example was to explain why it makes no sense.
We have two teachers one a Bible teacher and one an English teacher. Both teach their subjects. Both engage in not so moral things between teaching. Both got caught. Some of the Bible that was taught was true . Some of the English that was taught was true. (this is a guess since I was not there but I'm asuming that it was so.) Their actions did not make either the Bible or English untrue. their actions were just that actions. What they taught stands or falls on its own merit.
So to answer the second part of his question which was Quote:
DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES....SINCE THE HIGHER UPS THAT TAUGHT US THE WORD YEARS BACK (WHICH WE DEFENDED TO THE HILT)TURNED OUT TO BE SOOOOOOOOOOOO CORUPT?
Quote:
------------------------------------------------
My answer was No it has nothing to do with it just like the teachers actions have nothing to do with the school or her English being true. It is two seperate issues.
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rascal
Warm fuzzies about the people? Oh yeah....me too, definatly.
I just don`t equate the wonderfull people with the ministry.
I know a wonderfull spiritual woman who teaches occasionally at the mormon church.
It is the spirit of God that works in her to provide such heart and insight....it doesn`t make her church a place that I would be comfortable in.
Don`t you see?
It was the spirit of God that worked in individual people...it was twi, that hijacked their tallents and hid behind them ...they were enabled to preform great evil.... because what the REST of the people saw was the honest christians that brought their gifts and spirituality WITH them.
I have seen this in churches since leaving as well...you have a couple of really strong genuine chrisitians who love and inspire people, but behind the scenes, you have the decons and the board members who can be quite corrupt and cruel.
As with twi, it doesn`t inspire me with any respect for their denomination, or the leaders whom use the believers as shields to mask their activities, nor their leaders whom use these dear folks, their tallent and their status in the community to improve the prestige of their church.
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rascal
Allan, vp was the one who taught lcm ... he was just as spiritually nasty some believe more so.... he was simply more subtle is all.
As a matter of fact, as far as I can tell, lcm wasn`t too bad a guy before becoming involved with twi.
Rumors of Vp`s bad behavior on the other hand, can be traced back to his high school days.
He was just a little more clever at the manipulation game is all.
Neither are to be trusted, nor do they deserve our respect.
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satori001
Doesn't seem fair does it? That's not our sanitized, 21st century American version of Christianity, dang it. And yet...
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