Your martyrdom is getting old and your exaggerations are ridiculous.
So is yours, Belle.
How many times does he have to say that no insult was intended before some of you accept that? I'm not convinced that he has insulted anyone on this thread, and if he did, he didn't mean to (which he has explained repeatedly). You, on the other hand, are deliberately and relentlessly slamming him.
Do you want insults, Belle? I'm tempted to direct a few your way. I'll start by saying (politely) that I really don't like the way you are twisting WhiteDove's intent and accusing him of a motivation he does not have.
LongGone, those are some examples. If one does not want to get into a political or religious debate, then they should not bring religion or politics into a discussion. Those are the two topics that people are extremely passionate about and generally with any topic they can generate heated discussions, no?
Perhaps if WD had said, "I don't care for the Harry Potter books and feel that they don't promote Christian values." Although, it still would have led to a discussion, it probably would have been much more amiable. Some people DO think HP takes kids off the path of Christianity and others see it as over-reacting. It's not a new topic, but it can be - and I have been involved with discussions - repectful and non-insulting to both points of view.
Chef, WD has not read the books. He says he flipped through a few pages of one book but saw no fascination with it. Personally, I don't think he read enough to be able to make a truly informed decision and, as such, is basing his views on whatever some person he must greatly respect has said.
Cool I was just trying to respond to your post today. It was not my intention to insult you but if you say thats the case I except that as your words Sorry.
I have a list of things to worry about. Whether I got insulted in a conversation about Harry Potter is not on the list. A little perspective here, right? :)-->
I don't share WD's beliefs, but I was thinking about what I might say if I did, and I think I'd have as hard a time expressing my thoughts without offending people as he seems to be having. I'm not offended, but I'm not a Christian. So I have a question for Christians who are offended by WhiteDove's comments. If you shared his beliefs, how could you express them without offending Christians who don't share those beliefs? I don't think you could.
Ok, I think this is a potentially-productive question.
I honestly believe there are less-offensive and more-offensive ways to say anything.
How would I have expressed the same type of sentiment as the posts that started
trouble?
Well, I run the risk of changing his meaning if he really meant exactly what he
said originally. However, taking as a given that he was absolutely truthful that NO
insult was meant, and that no judgements were intended of other posters at the GSC,
I offer this before-and-after....
================
Before:
"Yes. I spent some time looking through the first one at least until I could not
stomach anymore. The spiritual kingdom does not hold any fascination over me, I am
well aware of their motives. So while wee ones anxiously wait for the wee hours when a
fictional tale of a wee wizard will be released. I'll be waiting also, for the risen
Son of God to return."
After:
"Yes. I spent a short time reading part of the first one. I put it down soon after-
I was getting physically ill. To me, it had the feel of spiritualism. I steer well
clear of anything that feels like spiritualism to me. Some kids are eager for the
next HP book. Me, I'd rather save all my anticipation for the return of the risen
Son of God."
=====
There.
The difference?
I still say I read an excerpt. I still stop reading. I still stop because I evaluate
it as having a spiritualist tinge-but I don't declare that dissenters are automatically
wrong by declaring this book is the result of "the spiritual kingdom", period.
I also object to kids waiting for HP, contrast it with waiting for the Messiah-
who is FAR more important than any fiction-but allow for the possibility that
people who are eager for HP books might also be eager for the Messiah.
Therefore, I suggest I'm a good Christian, but allow for the possibility that HP fans
might be good Christians as well. The absence of allowing for this was my main
I don't share WD's beliefs, but I was thinking about what I might say if I did, and I think I'd have as hard a time expressing my thoughts without offending people as he seems to be having. I'm not offended, but I'm not a Christian. So I have a question for Christians who are offended by WhiteDove's comments. If you shared his beliefs, how could you express them without offending Christians who don't share those beliefs? I don't think you could.
Good question. How about this:
I can see where honest Christians would disagree with me, but from my perspective, these books cross the line when it comes to what I consider acceptable entertainment. I've heard the arguments on the other side of this, and while some people find them persuasive, I don't. If I were to read these books, I think I would be violating my Biblical principles. Other Christians feel differently, and I can accept that, but this is the stand I choose to take.
This is actually what he said (in far fewer words) on p. 3, which prompted me to drop out of the conversation...
quote:
Ok Raf we will disagree. I was only trying to convey that I felt I have a responsibility for me to do.
To which I responded most eloquently:
quote:
Cool beans.
I can easily see why some Christians feel the way Dove does. I just don't agree with it. Oh no! Now the sky's going to fall because two Christians are not 100% likeminded on something! :)-->
I don't share WD's beliefs, but I was thinking about what I might say if I did, and I think I'd have as hard a time expressing my thoughts without offending people as he seems to be having. I'm not offended, but I'm not a Christian. So I have a question for Christians who are offended by WhiteDove's comments. If you shared his beliefs, how could you express them without offending Christians who don't share those beliefs? I don't think you could.
Long Gone
We must have been posting at the same time this morning and I had to leave to go to a board meeting for a church camp. Although in reflection of this thread I did not really say too much today. (Alright Now! I heard all those Thank God's from the back of the room)LOL
I'm the only non church member that attends but we use the camp for events so the director invited me to attend the meetings. Anyway I did not want to leave without saying thanks for your kindness and for understanding.
I never did give my opinion of the Harry Potter books as far as from a biblical Christian perspective, and so now I will. And no doubt this will offend some posters here:
I believe that the Harry Potter books are inspired by Satan, the god of this world. Yet another reason they are not in my home...
and *I* believe that vpw works were inspired by Satan, the God of this world. Yet another reason they are not permitted in MY home.....
And FURTHER more any of you whom still enjoy them are promoting darkness as well....but hey that is just me stating my opinion....oh poor me I hope that I don`t get bbq`ed for my pov.....boo hoo
Offended??? (yeah, you oughtta be) Oh well....it really IS all your fault anyway because undoubtedly you simply are misunderstanding my intention.
Actually, rascal, if you want to play fair, it goes like this:
"I won't speak for what you allow in your life, but I refuse to compromise my stand on the integrity of God's Word by allowing deceptive rubbish like Studies in Abundant Living into my home. I won't speak for you, but I refuse to be swept away by such spiritual darkness. I'm not saying anything about you, mind you, but I'm standing for God by taking this position. No insult intended. :)-->"
and *I* believe that vpw works were inspired by Satan, the God of this world. Yet another reason they are not permitted in MY home.....
And FURTHER more any of you whom still enjoy them are promoting darkness as well....but hey that is just me stating my opinion....oh poor me I hope that I don`t get bbq`ed for my pov.....boo hoo
Offended??? (yeah, you oughtta be) Oh well....it really IS all your fault anyway because undoubtedly you simply are misunderstanding my intention.
Now see Rascal? Wasn't that nice? I thoroughly applaud your stand on what you believe. You are totally welcome to believe wht you want, and, I am not going to say that you are degrading me for my belief. We all have different beliefs, and we are entitled to them, and so, enjoy your beliefs!
No Johnny, it really wasn`t very nice at all... it was deliberatly nasty to make a point. Your vote of aproval doesn`t make such behavior any more acceptable.
Therefore, I suggest I'm a good Christian, but allow for the possibility that HP fans might be good Christians as well.
But of course! I haven't read it (any of them), nor do I wish to. I choose to believe that it is not good reading material, and that is good enough for me.
What others choose is their own business. :)-->
I did have a discussion with my saintly mother about this (she is a die-hard librarian to the end), and she maintains that the books are great (she hasn't read them either) merely for the fact that they are getting kids to read.
I suggested that perhaps if someone *jazzed* up something like ultra-right religious teachings or (shudder) republican political platforms --- that it would be a wonderful thing, if it got kids to read.
If looks could kill, I'd a been a goner!! :D-->
(That's the last time I play *devil's advocate* with her!!)
Guess the content does matter after all -- just depends on how you look at it. ;)-->
Oh yea -- I forgot to respond to WordWolf's assessment.
I don't consider anyone less a christian (should they choose to call themselves that), if they have a set of those books, vpw's, Mel Bay's, the encyclopedia Brittanica, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
Now I wonder why it is that those 'die-hard' librarians (and thank God for them too! ;)-->) seem to have the most trouble with 'ultra-right religious teachings or (shudder) republican political platforms', hmmm?
Oh and by the way, I dare say that MOST librarians (at least) would be for including reeading material from those 'ultra-right religious teachings or (shudder) republican political platforms' as well. And the same group has also been against censorship coming from the hard left fanatics as well. Many times.
That's what happens when people try censorship as a means of propagating the gospel.
But seriously, I can say that the librarians that I have known (as a son to one, and formerly married to another, as well as being aquainted with the others that they have worked with), that they are just as close minded, when they decide to be. :)-->
This is not to castigate them, or their beliefs, but merely an observation on my part (1st hand experience -- if you will), that they can refuse to ascertain facts, based on personal predjudices along with the rest of us.
Actually, rascal, if you want to play fair, it goes like this:
"I won't speak for what you allow in your life, but I refuse to compromise my stand on the integrity of God's Word by allowing deceptive rubbish like Studies in Abundant Living into my home. I won't speak for you, but I refuse to be swept away by such spiritual darkness. I'm not saying anything about you, mind you, but I'm standing for God by taking this position. No insult intended. Smile"
However folks, it does not matter how you paint it or say it. If your belief is stated and is not in concert with another persons belief, then, it has the full capability to offend. The truth is, when someone states their opinion concerning "what is good or bad" for people to be involved with in life, then they really are "saying something about other people", and there is no way of getting around it. People very well may be insulted by a persons' stated beliefs, and that's just the way it is, so get over it.
The good news is, at least in a forum such as this, honest communication can be made between those who come here to do what we do here.
For example: I worked with a guy for years, and opnce when we had a discussion about God and the Bible, he told me that he believed that people who believed in God were just weaklings and were not strong enough to face life's tough realities, and therefore needed to believe in some higher power, kind of like a security blanket or something. Well, I must say that this offended me. It was an insult to me. Basically he just flat out called me a weakling. But, so what! He is entitled to his opinion, and I am entitled to mine. At least he left me no question as to where he stood on the issue...
Oh, and by the way, that cleaned up paragraph of yours, Rascal, would be a deep insult to Mike, for to call studies in abundant living "deceptive rubbish" would by highly insulting to him, for that would be the same as calling him or anyone who believes that it is "good stuff" is decieved.
But hell, that doesn't really matter anyway, because after all, it's only Mike.
OR,
That's your opinion and you are stickin to it! Fine with me...
THAT was the friggin point Johnny L. It WAS offensive, deeply so, (made me sick to even write it)....just as offensive as when you and dove insulted by casting aspersions on the quality of our christian character in your attempt to drive home your point when slamming those of us who enjoyed reading HP.
It was to make a point that you two were extremely offensive in pointing your fingers of spiritual judgement in your assessment of anyone not currently of the same mindset as yourself....
Far from irritating you because folks flocked to the book store....I think that it simply ....es you off beyond all reason, that we no LONGER are acting as spiritual lemmings blindly racing to you or anyone else, and being properly cowed at the invocation of twi dogma.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
30
25
22
63
Popular Days
Jul 23
51
Jul 21
50
Jul 20
39
Jul 22
30
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 30 posts
Raf 25 posts
J0nny Ling0 22 posts
WhiteDove 63 posts
Popular Days
Jul 23 2005
51 posts
Jul 21 2005
50 posts
Jul 20 2005
39 posts
Jul 22 2005
30 posts
laleo
So is yours, Belle.
How many times does he have to say that no insult was intended before some of you accept that? I'm not convinced that he has insulted anyone on this thread, and if he did, he didn't mean to (which he has explained repeatedly). You, on the other hand, are deliberately and relentlessly slamming him.
Do you want insults, Belle? I'm tempted to direct a few your way. I'll start by saying (politely) that I really don't like the way you are twisting WhiteDove's intent and accusing him of a motivation he does not have.
Cut the guy some slack.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
LongGone, those are some examples. If one does not want to get into a political or religious debate, then they should not bring religion or politics into a discussion. Those are the two topics that people are extremely passionate about and generally with any topic they can generate heated discussions, no?
Perhaps if WD had said, "I don't care for the Harry Potter books and feel that they don't promote Christian values." Although, it still would have led to a discussion, it probably would have been much more amiable. Some people DO think HP takes kids off the path of Christianity and others see it as over-reacting. It's not a new topic, but it can be - and I have been involved with discussions - repectful and non-insulting to both points of view.
Chef, WD has not read the books. He says he flipped through a few pages of one book but saw no fascination with it. Personally, I don't think he read enough to be able to make a truly informed decision and, as such, is basing his views on whatever some person he must greatly respect has said.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
belle i agree, sometimes people do this
gee i like these little smiles!!!!!!!! i wish one of them had a wand!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I have a list of things to worry about. Whether I got insulted in a conversation about Harry Potter is not on the list. A little perspective here, right?
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Ok, I think this is a potentially-productive question.
I honestly believe there are less-offensive and more-offensive ways to say anything.
How would I have expressed the same type of sentiment as the posts that started
trouble?
Well, I run the risk of changing his meaning if he really meant exactly what he
said originally. However, taking as a given that he was absolutely truthful that NO
insult was meant, and that no judgements were intended of other posters at the GSC,
I offer this before-and-after....
================
Before:
"Yes. I spent some time looking through the first one at least until I could not
stomach anymore. The spiritual kingdom does not hold any fascination over me, I am
well aware of their motives. So while wee ones anxiously wait for the wee hours when a
fictional tale of a wee wizard will be released. I'll be waiting also, for the risen
Son of God to return."
After:
"Yes. I spent a short time reading part of the first one. I put it down soon after-
I was getting physically ill. To me, it had the feel of spiritualism. I steer well
clear of anything that feels like spiritualism to me. Some kids are eager for the
next HP book. Me, I'd rather save all my anticipation for the return of the risen
Son of God."
=====
There.
The difference?
I still say I read an excerpt. I still stop reading. I still stop because I evaluate
it as having a spiritualist tinge-but I don't declare that dissenters are automatically
wrong by declaring this book is the result of "the spiritual kingdom", period.
I also object to kids waiting for HP, contrast it with waiting for the Messiah-
who is FAR more important than any fiction-but allow for the possibility that
people who are eager for HP books might also be eager for the Messiah.
Therefore, I suggest I'm a good Christian, but allow for the possibility that HP fans
might be good Christians as well. The absence of allowing for this was my main
objection.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Good question. How about this:
I can see where honest Christians would disagree with me, but from my perspective, these books cross the line when it comes to what I consider acceptable entertainment. I've heard the arguments on the other side of this, and while some people find them persuasive, I don't. If I were to read these books, I think I would be violating my Biblical principles. Other Christians feel differently, and I can accept that, but this is the stand I choose to take.
This is actually what he said (in far fewer words) on p. 3, which prompted me to drop out of the conversation...
To which I responded most eloquently:
I can easily see why some Christians feel the way Dove does. I just don't agree with it. Oh no! Now the sky's going to fall because two Christians are not 100% likeminded on something!
:)-->
I think you're mistaken.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Long Gone
We must have been posting at the same time this morning and I had to leave to go to a board meeting for a church camp. Although in reflection of this thread I did not really say too much today. (Alright Now! I heard all those Thank God's from the back of the room)LOL
I'm the only non church member that attends but we use the camp for events so the director invited me to attend the meetings. Anyway I did not want to leave without saying thanks for your kindness and for understanding.
Thanks WhiteDove.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
I never did give my opinion of the Harry Potter books as far as from a biblical Christian perspective, and so now I will. And no doubt this will offend some posters here:
I believe that the Harry Potter books are inspired by Satan, the god of this world. Yet another reason they are not in my home...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Cool beans. I disagree with you. And life...marches...on...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
and *I* believe that vpw works were inspired by Satan, the God of this world. Yet another reason they are not permitted in MY home.....
And FURTHER more any of you whom still enjoy them are promoting darkness as well....but hey that is just me stating my opinion....oh poor me I hope that I don`t get bbq`ed for my pov.....boo hoo
Offended??? (yeah, you oughtta be) Oh well....it really IS all your fault anyway because undoubtedly you simply are misunderstanding my intention.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Actually, rascal, if you want to play fair, it goes like this:
"I won't speak for what you allow in your life, but I refuse to compromise my stand on the integrity of God's Word by allowing deceptive rubbish like Studies in Abundant Living into my home. I won't speak for you, but I refuse to be swept away by such spiritual darkness. I'm not saying anything about you, mind you, but I'm standing for God by taking this position. No insult intended.
:)-->"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Raf, I stand corrected....thank you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
damn
i am glad i have read more than an excerpt from the bible
people shoud not condem before they read it all not just flipping through it
good does over come evil
how can that be wrong
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
VERY good point chef.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Now see Rascal? Wasn't that nice? I thoroughly applaud your stand on what you believe. You are totally welcome to believe wht you want, and, I am not going to say that you are degrading me for my belief. We all have different beliefs, and we are entitled to them, and so, enjoy your beliefs!
Zakamuka!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
No Johnny, it really wasn`t very nice at all... it was deliberatly nasty to make a point. Your vote of aproval doesn`t make such behavior any more acceptable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
But of course! I haven't read it (any of them), nor do I wish to. I choose to believe that it is not good reading material, and that is good enough for me.
What others choose is their own business.
:)-->
I did have a discussion with my saintly mother about this (she is a die-hard librarian to the end), and she maintains that the books are great (she hasn't read them either) merely for the fact that they are getting kids to read.
I suggested that perhaps if someone *jazzed* up something like ultra-right religious teachings or (shudder) republican political platforms
--- that it would be a wonderful thing, if it got kids to read.
If looks could kill, I'd a been a goner!!
:D-->
(That's the last time I play *devil's advocate* with her!!)
Guess the content does matter after all -- just depends on how you look at it.
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Oh yea -- I forgot to respond to WordWolf's assessment.
I don't consider anyone less a christian (should they choose to call themselves that), if they have a set of those books, vpw's, Mel Bay's, the encyclopedia Brittanica, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
Or is it ad naseum??
-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
dmiller,
Now I wonder why it is that those 'die-hard' librarians (and thank God for them too!
;)-->) seem to have the most trouble with 'ultra-right religious teachings or (shudder) republican political platforms', hmmm?
Oh and by the way, I dare say that MOST librarians (at least) would be for including reeading material from those 'ultra-right religious teachings or (shudder) republican political platforms' as well. And the same group has also been against censorship coming from the hard left fanatics as well. Many times.
That's what happens when people try censorship as a means of propagating the gospel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Garth -- point taken.
But seriously, I can say that the librarians that I have known (as a son to one, and formerly married to another, as well as being aquainted with the others that they have worked with), that they are just as close minded, when they decide to be.
:)-->
This is not to castigate them, or their beliefs, but merely an observation on my part (1st hand experience -- if you will), that they can refuse to ascertain facts, based on personal predjudices along with the rest of us.
C'est la Vie (or however you spell it!!)
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
However folks, it does not matter how you paint it or say it. If your belief is stated and is not in concert with another persons belief, then, it has the full capability to offend. The truth is, when someone states their opinion concerning "what is good or bad" for people to be involved with in life, then they really are "saying something about other people", and there is no way of getting around it. People very well may be insulted by a persons' stated beliefs, and that's just the way it is, so get over it.
The good news is, at least in a forum such as this, honest communication can be made between those who come here to do what we do here.
For example: I worked with a guy for years, and opnce when we had a discussion about God and the Bible, he told me that he believed that people who believed in God were just weaklings and were not strong enough to face life's tough realities, and therefore needed to believe in some higher power, kind of like a security blanket or something. Well, I must say that this offended me. It was an insult to me. Basically he just flat out called me a weakling. But, so what! He is entitled to his opinion, and I am entitled to mine. At least he left me no question as to where he stood on the issue...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Oh, and by the way, that cleaned up paragraph of yours, Rascal, would be a deep insult to Mike, for to call studies in abundant living "deceptive rubbish" would by highly insulting to him, for that would be the same as calling him or anyone who believes that it is "good stuff" is decieved.
But hell, that doesn't really matter anyway, because after all, it's only Mike.
OR,
That's your opinion and you are stickin to it! Fine with me...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
THAT was the friggin point Johnny L. It WAS offensive, deeply so, (made me sick to even write it)....just as offensive as when you and dove insulted by casting aspersions on the quality of our christian character in your attempt to drive home your point when slamming those of us who enjoyed reading HP.
It was to make a point that you two were extremely offensive in pointing your fingers of spiritual judgement in your assessment of anyone not currently of the same mindset as yourself....
Far from irritating you because folks flocked to the book store....I think that it simply ....es you off beyond all reason, that we no LONGER are acting as spiritual lemmings blindly racing to you or anyone else, and being properly cowed at the invocation of twi dogma.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Well, sorry if you don't like my opinion of the HP books, and my reasoning behind it. I guess we'll just have to disagree...
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.