If a spell ever did 'work', it was 'working' in the mind of the target.
Which is something the bible talks about...not being offended and all...
No offense intended, Cool, but "None of it is real" is not necessarily so because you "cast many spells," and none of it was real.
I never was conscious that I cast a spell. I didn't usually think about what was happening in those terms or call it witchcraft, but that's what it was - and it wasn't just in my mind. I wasn't a big wizard or anything - as I said, I rarely thought about it in those terms; although, I did pick up on how to do some things from a friend who called some of the thngs he was doing magic.
See, this is something that I think is very important for people to understand...that reality is a perception to most people...and that if one's perception says things are one way, then that is reality to that one...but it may not be reality to others.
Start out at a party doing card tricks - your basic (no magic) tricks - to set up the susceptibility of the people.
End up by sending someone into another room by him/her self where he/she can take a card out of the deck - inspecting the deck in any way. Call out through the door the card they've picked.
End up with five people sitting around you - have them each take one card out of the deck they've shuffled to their heart's content and place it face down - call each card while it is still face down.
Tell someone to think of a three digit number, then call it.
Hear your friend coming up the walkway and say to yourself if this is real, so & so is going to walk in the door and say "27," and two seconds later it happens.
That's all for starters. Mix in some LSD, & you might be communicating with your friend for hours without saying a work - not just your mind, he is in on it - as mine was.
Throw in some lust spirits and a few initiated friends and you've got a network going where you can "visit" your friend on the other side of the country in an apartment you've never seen - describe the apartment, the pictures on the wall, the party he had the night before, what went on in the bedroom at the party.
About that time I started to feel that what was going on was somewhat "spooky."
It's also something I can do without acid or anything but focussing my mind.
Do you see something evil in this?
"That isn't spell casting, though." Not all of it, but take two situations:
1) Someone follows something they were told would work - maybe they read about it, maybe someone told them, maybe there was an incantation, some words to say, some things to do something with. Something is supposed to happen - and nothing happens.
2) Take an individual or a group of people who think that basically what you see is what you get and that they are in control of what's going on. Take them to a place where are aware that there is a power that knows what they are thinking, what they are doing and will do, what they do in their bedroom, that maybe is there while they're doing it, maybe in some participatory way, that maybe this power is more in control of what's happening in their minds and lives than they are - and have that actually be the case.
In which case would you be more disposed to think that there is a spell working?
I know that I'm sharing more than I did in the previous post.
Do I think it is evil? When people can call to others across the country and have them travel to the other side of the country drawn by a mental, spiritual, sexual pull - when others know what is going on in your bed because they are in the spirit that you're in with while doing the deed - yes, I think that is evil. Likewise, when people can communicate for hours without speech, but as a result, have a harder time talking to each other - because of the spiritual spin that can be put upon words - any words spoken, I think that is evil.
More and more, I got the distinct feeling that we were pawns in someone else's parlor game - and our well-being - or our "fun" wasn't always the result.
I still had no suspicion about witchcraft. Several weeks after getting involved with the Word, I was "visited" by out loud - really loud - voices, chains rattling, the banshee witch cry/laugh, and deals being offered to me or else.
Shortly after that I was delivered by the limb leader who knew the cry from personal experience.
I remember watching The Wizard of Oz one year in which the show was dedicated to all those who had watched it every year for the previous 20 years that it had been aired. If I wasnt one of them, I was close. I remember one of my friends making fun of the good witch; one of the little kids who was watching immediately and angrily jumped to defend her honor. Now, I don't remember whether I ever looked at the good witch as a role model, but how could I not have? One would have to be mean-hearted or past the age of a child's suspension of disbelief NOT to look at the good witch as a role model - although kids don't recognize the concept.
Now I don't think the cry of the Wicked Witch of the West is any more just the simple product of the imagination of the author than I think the poppy field the trio fell asleep in was just a field of flowers.
The phony wizard with his powerless certificates didn't invalidate the "spiritual realities" in the story any more than our MOG with his "certificates" of graduation. IMO, neither do the fantastic elements in The Wizard of Oz make the basic "realities" they are supposed to represent any less "real."
What you are sharing is very interesting in how such things were accessed and used.
I often see that what many people consider evil is not so much the thing itself, but how the thing was used.
As has been brought up on this thread, the bible was used by twi for evil.
Does that make the bible itself evil? I'm sure that you and I agree that it does not.
The main point of this thread is that, as a Christian, the author of the thread feels that the focus of the Harry Potter books is an antithesis to the focus of the bible...and may/most likely will lead down a dark path. (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, WhiteDove. ;)--> )
Yet the bible is full of Godly people practicing what most of us today would consider sorcery (remember the showdown Elijah had with the local sorcerers?), spell casting (Jesus cursing the fig tree), conjuring (the Mount of Transfiguration), divination (it's called 'prophecy' in the bible), and all sorts of 'evil'.
What you are sharing is very interesting in how such things were accessed and used.
I often see that what many people consider evil is not so much the thing itself, but how the thing was used.
I think the bottom line was that we were being accessed and used.
I don't believe the spirit that delivered me has that potential within the nature of its power; the misuses and abuses of men notwithstanding. Therein lies the defining diffence - or one of them - between what I would call good & evil. The closer I got to leaving the powers I was fooling with alone and turning to the true, the more they revealed their nasty nature as nice as they seemed and as beneficently as they fit into my philosophy beforehand.
The main point of this thread is that, as a Christian, the author of the thread feels that the focus of the Harry Potter books is an antithesis to the focus of the bible...and may/most likely will lead down a dark path. (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, WhiteDove. ;)--> )
HA HA HA Coolwaters I would not touch that for all the Harry Potter Books in the World. I may be dumb but I'm not stupid...... :D--> -->
I think the bottom line was that we were being accessed and used.
Yes...that is certainly the bottom line...in many situations in life...especially where it concerns the religious/spiritual.
quote:
I don't believe the spirit that delivered me has that potential within the nature of its power; the misuses and abuses of men notwithstanding.
OK, are you talking about the God presented in the bible? (Please don't think I'm being dense...or insulting...or anything like that...this is, after all, GSC...I wanna make sure I understand you correctly. :)--> )
**************************
WhiteDove! I don't think you're stupid or even dumb. Like I just said above, I wanna make sure I understand correctly.
The main point of this thread is that, as a Christian, the author of the thread feels that the focus of the Harry Potter books is an antithesis to the focus of the bible...and may/most likely will lead down a dark path. (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, WhiteDove. ;)--> )
HA HA HA Coolwaters I would not touch that for all the Harry Potter Books in the World. I may be dumb but I'm not stupid...... :D--> -->
OK, are you talking about the God presented in the bible? (Please don't think I'm being dense...or insulting...or anything like that...this is, after all, GSC...I wanna make sure I understand you correctly. :)--> )
Good question, Cool. I should have been clearer. I was thinking of the spirit from God in children of God via the new birth. I'll answer that this "God" is "the God presented in the bible" with the understanding that He is a kindred spirit to the new birth spirit with the interpretation that I gave above. Again, I don't believe that spirit I have within has within its nature the misuse and abuse of people - the abuses of people involved notwithstanding.
I don't think you've been anything but intelligent and gracious here, Cool. The question came up because I wasn't more detailed in my post.
What I hear you saying is that the 'thing' (the spirit within) is not, in and of itself, capable of abuses and such the like...it is not in it's nature.
This is a very interesting thought...that the thing itself has a basic nature.
From this viewpoint, I now understand the concerns presented.
I can see where honest Christians would disagree with me, but from my perspective, these books cross the line when it comes to what I consider acceptable entertainment. I've heard the arguments on the other side of this, and while some people find them persuasive, I don't. If I were to read these books, I think I would be violating my Biblical principles. Other Christians feel differently, and I can accept that, but this is the stand I choose to take.
Quote:
P.S. I saw your rewrite. I see now why you get paid the big bucks! I'm taking notes.... :)-->
I applaud you for the courage to stand up for your beliefs and for your willingness to consider that other people have other perspectives.
I don't always express my views in ways that are unoffensive to others, altho I do attempt to make the effort to be considerate and compassionate (on my thoughtful, coherent days; lol). But I've been known to inadvertently .... off a few people in my day and always learn a great deal when it's brought to my attention - - even if I have trouble getting to the "message" due to the "delivery".
Ya know, I don't know how one cannot be offensive to some degree (note the words to some degree) when one posts his or her opinion which will undoubtedly be in diret contrast to someone else's opinion. Let's take an arbitrary subject for instance, a subject from the Bible if I may:
When it comes to how a person may obtain eternal life, the Bible is very clear, and I will quote Jesus his ownself. He said;
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes unto the father but by the son".
The scripture also says, and I will have to paraphrase this for I don't have it memorized completely, nor do I know what where it is, but the Bible says in reference to Jesus Christ that;
"There is no name under heaven by which man can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ".
Now, if a person has started a thread on "How Must I Be Saved?", and people of varying faiths including Christians, Jews, Islamis, Atheists, and Humanists post their beliefs, this particular Christian doctrine is going to offend many many people in the discussion, no matter how it is stated.
(How's that for a run on sentance? Haha!)
I mean, come on, Jewish doctrine rejects Christ as the Messiah and are still waiting for one. Islamis believe that Mohammed is God's Prophet, and not Jesus Christ. Atheists don't believe in God at all, and humanists believe (I guess among other things) that, "It's all good.." as long as you are "nice".
And man, I can hear the arguments now! "Just who in the hell are you to tell me if I am going to have eternal life or not! You Christians are sooo judgemental! Your way is the only way to God? What crap!"
I don't know how this could be said without offending someone, even if it is said nicely and with sugar on top.
And so, if a person draws on the scriptures' edicts concerning staying away from sorcery (and there are many within the scriptures), and decides that these Harry Potter books tend to paint sorcery as a "neat thing", a "harmless thing", then his or her Biblical opinion is flat out going to offend someone who believes that the books are harmless.
Simply put, no matter how you say it, one person's stated beliefs, if in direct contrast to another persons' stated beliefs is the same as saying; "You believe the wrong thing, and therefore you are wrong".
And that is just plain going to be offensive and could be considered insulting. I think that if we are to post here at this forum, then we need to be responsible enough to accept the fact that others' beliefs are going to be in contrast with our own at times, and just accept that fact with a "thicker skin..."
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Tom
No offense intended, Cool, but "None of it is real" is not necessarily so because you "cast many spells," and none of it was real.
I never was conscious that I cast a spell. I didn't usually think about what was happening in those terms or call it witchcraft, but that's what it was - and it wasn't just in my mind. I wasn't a big wizard or anything - as I said, I rarely thought about it in those terms; although, I did pick up on how to do some things from a friend who called some of the thngs he was doing magic.
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CoolWaters
OK, Tom...how did it manifest into reality?
See, this is something that I think is very important for people to understand...that reality is a perception to most people...and that if one's perception says things are one way, then that is reality to that one...but it may not be reality to others.
See where I'm going?
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Tom
I see.
Okay, fairly clear example...
Start out at a party doing card tricks - your basic (no magic) tricks - to set up the susceptibility of the people.
End up by sending someone into another room by him/her self where he/she can take a card out of the deck - inspecting the deck in any way. Call out through the door the card they've picked.
End up with five people sitting around you - have them each take one card out of the deck they've shuffled to their heart's content and place it face down - call each card while it is still face down.
Tell someone to think of a three digit number, then call it.
Hear your friend coming up the walkway and say to yourself if this is real, so & so is going to walk in the door and say "27," and two seconds later it happens.
That's all for starters. Mix in some LSD, & you might be communicating with your friend for hours without saying a work - not just your mind, he is in on it - as mine was.
Throw in some lust spirits and a few initiated friends and you've got a network going where you can "visit" your friend on the other side of the country in an apartment you've never seen - describe the apartment, the pictures on the wall, the party he had the night before, what went on in the bedroom at the party.
About that time I started to feel that what was going on was somewhat "spooky."
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CoolWaters
OK.
That isn't spell casting, though.
It's also something I can do without acid or anything but focussing my mind.
Do you see something evil in this?
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Tom
"That isn't spell casting, though." Not all of it, but take two situations:
1) Someone follows something they were told would work - maybe they read about it, maybe someone told them, maybe there was an incantation, some words to say, some things to do something with. Something is supposed to happen - and nothing happens.
2) Take an individual or a group of people who think that basically what you see is what you get and that they are in control of what's going on. Take them to a place where are aware that there is a power that knows what they are thinking, what they are doing and will do, what they do in their bedroom, that maybe is there while they're doing it, maybe in some participatory way, that maybe this power is more in control of what's happening in their minds and lives than they are - and have that actually be the case.
In which case would you be more disposed to think that there is a spell working?
I know that I'm sharing more than I did in the previous post.
Do I think it is evil? When people can call to others across the country and have them travel to the other side of the country drawn by a mental, spiritual, sexual pull - when others know what is going on in your bed because they are in the spirit that you're in with while doing the deed - yes, I think that is evil. Likewise, when people can communicate for hours without speech, but as a result, have a harder time talking to each other - because of the spiritual spin that can be put upon words - any words spoken, I think that is evil.
More and more, I got the distinct feeling that we were pawns in someone else's parlor game - and our well-being - or our "fun" wasn't always the result.
I still had no suspicion about witchcraft. Several weeks after getting involved with the Word, I was "visited" by out loud - really loud - voices, chains rattling, the banshee witch cry/laugh, and deals being offered to me or else.
Shortly after that I was delivered by the limb leader who knew the cry from personal experience.
I remember watching The Wizard of Oz one year in which the show was dedicated to all those who had watched it every year for the previous 20 years that it had been aired. If I wasnt one of them, I was close. I remember one of my friends making fun of the good witch; one of the little kids who was watching immediately and angrily jumped to defend her honor. Now, I don't remember whether I ever looked at the good witch as a role model, but how could I not have? One would have to be mean-hearted or past the age of a child's suspension of disbelief NOT to look at the good witch as a role model - although kids don't recognize the concept.
Now I don't think the cry of the Wicked Witch of the West is any more just the simple product of the imagination of the author than I think the poppy field the trio fell asleep in was just a field of flowers.
The phony wizard with his powerless certificates didn't invalidate the "spiritual realities" in the story any more than our MOG with his "certificates" of graduation. IMO, neither do the fantastic elements in The Wizard of Oz make the basic "realities" they are supposed to represent any less "real."
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Tom
I still love the story.
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CoolWaters
What you are sharing is very interesting in how such things were accessed and used.
I often see that what many people consider evil is not so much the thing itself, but how the thing was used.
As has been brought up on this thread, the bible was used by twi for evil.
Does that make the bible itself evil? I'm sure that you and I agree that it does not.
The main point of this thread is that, as a Christian, the author of the thread feels that the focus of the Harry Potter books is an antithesis to the focus of the bible...and may/most likely will lead down a dark path. (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, WhiteDove.
;)--> )
Yet the bible is full of Godly people practicing what most of us today would consider sorcery (remember the showdown Elijah had with the local sorcerers?), spell casting (Jesus cursing the fig tree), conjuring (the Mount of Transfiguration), divination (it's called 'prophecy' in the bible), and all sorts of 'evil'.
Again, I say it's perception...and heart.
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Tom
I think the bottom line was that we were being accessed and used.
I don't believe the spirit that delivered me has that potential within the nature of its power; the misuses and abuses of men notwithstanding. Therein lies the defining diffence - or one of them - between what I would call good & evil. The closer I got to leaving the powers I was fooling with alone and turning to the true, the more they revealed their nasty nature as nice as they seemed and as beneficently as they fit into my philosophy beforehand.
Tom
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WhiteDove
HA HA HA Coolwaters I would not touch that for all the Harry Potter Books in the World. I may be dumb but I'm not stupid......
:D--> 
-->
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CoolWaters
Yes...that is certainly the bottom line...in many situations in life...especially where it concerns the religious/spiritual.
OK, are you talking about the God presented in the bible? (Please don't think I'm being dense...or insulting...or anything like that...this is, after all, GSC...I wanna make sure I understand you correctly.
:)--> )
**************************
WhiteDove! I don't think you're stupid or even dumb. Like I just said above, I wanna make sure I understand correctly.
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Raf
Why not?
You've already said it, in different words.
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Tom
Good question, Cool. I should have been clearer. I was thinking of the spirit from God in children of God via the new birth. I'll answer that this "God" is "the God presented in the bible" with the understanding that He is a kindred spirit to the new birth spirit with the interpretation that I gave above. Again, I don't believe that spirit I have within has within its nature the misuse and abuse of people - the abuses of people involved notwithstanding.
I don't think you've been anything but intelligent and gracious here, Cool. The question came up because I wasn't more detailed in my post.
Tom
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CoolWaters
Tom,
I think that was clearer. TYVM
:)-->
What I hear you saying is that the 'thing' (the spirit within) is not, in and of itself, capable of abuses and such the like...it is not in it's nature.
This is a very interesting thought...that the thing itself has a basic nature.
From this viewpoint, I now understand the concerns presented.
Hmmmmm....much thinking is afoot for me!
This is why I LOVE open, respectful discussion.
TYVM!!!!
(TYVM for the compliment, too.)
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WhiteDove
I don't know Raf maybe because it did not go so well the first time.
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Raf
I guess.
:)-->
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WhiteDove
Quote Raf:
Good question. How about this
I can see where honest Christians would disagree with me, but from my perspective, these books cross the line when it comes to what I consider acceptable entertainment. I've heard the arguments on the other side of this, and while some people find them persuasive, I don't. If I were to read these books, I think I would be violating my Biblical principles. Other Christians feel differently, and I can accept that, but this is the stand I choose to take.
Quote:
P.S. I saw your rewrite. I see now why you get paid the big bucks! I'm taking notes....
:)-->
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Raf
Pleasure to be of service.
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LG
"Although some Christians merrily support the works of the devil, I won't do it" leads to much more lively discussions, don't you think?
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Raf
Umm, yeah, but that wasn't exactly the question.
See, that would be: "insult intended."
White Dove was saying "no insult intended."
So, there it is.
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jardinero
Doveman:
I applaud you for the courage to stand up for your beliefs and for your willingness to consider that other people have other perspectives.
I don't always express my views in ways that are unoffensive to others, altho I do attempt to make the effort to be considerate and compassionate (on my thoughtful, coherent days; lol). But I've been known to inadvertently .... off a few people in my day and always learn a great deal when it's brought to my attention - - even if I have trouble getting to the "message" due to the "delivery".
J.
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WhiteDove
Thanks J for your kind words.
But I think for now at least I learned a new lesson. It's just not worth it sometimes.
P.S. Hey Miss Cool I was in your town last weekend did you see me
--> as I went by.
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know, I don't know how one cannot be offensive to some degree (note the words to some degree) when one posts his or her opinion which will undoubtedly be in diret contrast to someone else's opinion. Let's take an arbitrary subject for instance, a subject from the Bible if I may:
When it comes to how a person may obtain eternal life, the Bible is very clear, and I will quote Jesus his ownself. He said;
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes unto the father but by the son".
The scripture also says, and I will have to paraphrase this for I don't have it memorized completely, nor do I know what where it is, but the Bible says in reference to Jesus Christ that;
"There is no name under heaven by which man can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ".
Now, if a person has started a thread on "How Must I Be Saved?", and people of varying faiths including Christians, Jews, Islamis, Atheists, and Humanists post their beliefs, this particular Christian doctrine is going to offend many many people in the discussion, no matter how it is stated.
(How's that for a run on sentance? Haha!)
I mean, come on, Jewish doctrine rejects Christ as the Messiah and are still waiting for one. Islamis believe that Mohammed is God's Prophet, and not Jesus Christ. Atheists don't believe in God at all, and humanists believe (I guess among other things) that, "It's all good.." as long as you are "nice".
And man, I can hear the arguments now! "Just who in the hell are you to tell me if I am going to have eternal life or not! You Christians are sooo judgemental! Your way is the only way to God? What crap!"
I don't know how this could be said without offending someone, even if it is said nicely and with sugar on top.
And so, if a person draws on the scriptures' edicts concerning staying away from sorcery (and there are many within the scriptures), and decides that these Harry Potter books tend to paint sorcery as a "neat thing", a "harmless thing", then his or her Biblical opinion is flat out going to offend someone who believes that the books are harmless.
Simply put, no matter how you say it, one person's stated beliefs, if in direct contrast to another persons' stated beliefs is the same as saying; "You believe the wrong thing, and therefore you are wrong".
And that is just plain going to be offensive and could be considered insulting. I think that if we are to post here at this forum, then we need to be responsible enough to accept the fact that others' beliefs are going to be in contrast with our own at times, and just accept that fact with a "thicker skin..."
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Tom Strange
well brotherLingo I'll bite... you could say all those things about Jesus, and top it off with "this is what I believe to be the truth", etc
WITHOUT adding (or inferring) "anyone who believes differently is a freaking moron"
You can express your opinions without casting any aspersions upon anyone else or degrading them... know what I mean?
That's how you can do it...
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LG
So "if you believe differently, you're going to hell" is not offensive, but "if you believe differently, you're a 'freaking moron'" is?
I'm thinking that too many people are too easily offended.
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