Okay, maybe it IS a fad, but I think it will be around and become a "classic" however long it takes for things to be considered "classic". I consider that HP will be mentioned and shared with kids just like Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc.
LOTR has been around for a long time as has The Hobbitt and such. I don't get into LOTR, but I certainly don't pooh-pooh those who do. They enjoy that kind of thing. I don't. It's real simple.
I agree, also, that there are better ways of putting things and that we DO have to be aware of how we think about people who don't necessarily share our enthusiasm or lack thereof.
JL, your post does come across as implying that those of us who are thoroughly enjoying the HP books and the hooplah surrounding their release dates are less honorable than you and your household. I appreciate and understand your distaste for "going along with the crowd" and teaching your children to not get caught up in frenzy and emotions, but I disagree with how you appear to pass judgement on us in the process. Just as many of us are not "wannabees", we're just thoroughly enjoying the books and the hooplah surrounding them. Surely there are SOME things you get excited about like that? I hope so.
Whitedove, I know that you usually aren't so judgemental. At least while I had chatted with you for a couple of years now. Your posts give off that you are the one with the know and that everyone else is going away from christianity. It certainly does give off that you are the martyr.
Maybe it has to do with being a parent. Before I had children I was very judgemental about what I would allow my kids and what I wouldn't allow. My kid would never do this as I see a kid having a temper tantrum in the store. LOL Low and behold I have kids and guess what? Temper tantrum galore. I had a strong willed child with a mind of her own. Thats what I get for being judgemental...lol Came back full force.
Maybe this stuff does not interest you as it does interest others. You say you glanced at the book in a store. Which means that you couldn't have given it much time as most people don't spend hours in a book store.
In twi we learned that everything was spiritual. We were looking around every corner for devil spirits.
My son is into the books. Yesterday, a friend of his that is having a very hard time in school and never opens up a book found that these books he loves to read. I was openly surprised with him and thought if it can get one kid to read that wouldn't ever open up a book otherwise it has done a good job.
I haven't read the books myself because I'm not really interested in it but I have seen the movies and it was fascinating. I can understand all the hoopla.
Please reconsider and look deep within yourself to see if its still a little bit of twi in there. I know I have to look within myself at times as twi was so ingrained for a better part of my younger life.
First off, I wish to apologize for the intensity of my last post, WhiteDove. I could, and should, have put it better and more civilized.
Basically my point is that I see no abuse in the Harry Potter books and movies, nor do I see anybody taking the books/movies more seriously than Yet Another Popular Fad that we Americans often take part in.
I haven't read all the posts - actually, the only one I read was Linda's because it was the first one listed on the page I open up when I get to gs.
Posting when I haven't read what's going on is usually a mistake, but here goes.
I read the first HP book & liked it - apparently not enought to read any of the others.
I've seen the movies and liked them.
I was at a faculty meeting the other day speaking with the librarian and the school newspaper, yearbook, newsletter, you name it teacher. They started talking about the latest book, and turns out they both had read it, and when I asked, they both had read all the HP books. "Wow," thought. I'm not sure what "wow" means - just that I was impressed that two such adult literary people had read all the HP books.
At that point, I figured it might be a good idea to read the last one.
All that having been said, I must disagree with Linda and whoever else thinks so that the theme of witchcraft is secondary to the humanity theme and the characterization. I think it is an integral part of the mix. While I don't think the "harm" is "irreparable," I do think it is a mistake to think that all the "fantasy/fairy tales" we grew up with or they are growing up with doesn't effect us. The old question of whether art effects culture or culture is an expession of art has a simple answer - both are true. There is no doubt in my mind that the sci-fi & fantasy I read growing up led me to believe in esp, and to my subsequent involvement in esp & witchcraft. I had to learn about it SOMEWHERE. And that's where I did.
And I'm not the only one. I wouldn't make an absolute statement like "kids know the difference between fantasy and reality." They might know that some things are definitely fantasy, and other things are definitely real, but few know where the line is. A lot of the things they think are fantasy, I know to be real magic.
Also, there are quite a lot of "gothic" kids out there, who, while they might enjoy HP, yet believe a lot of it is fantasy; nevertheless, espouse a lot of ideas that go under the umbrella of "nature worship" that many others would consider to be witchcraft, and there is absolutely no line between fantasy and reality agreed upon. Humanity, nature worship, feelings, the feminine side, magic - it's all in the mix. Even here at gs - or anywhere else for that matter, there is no line agreed upon. It's all up for grabs. IMO, there is legitimate concern here. The last two years, at the fourth quarter of the year, I gave all my classes the opportunity to vote on 10 selections from our textbook that they most wanted to read. Each year the five gothic selections in our book - of a gazillion selections - made it to the top 6 positions.
Having said all that, I must say that I get along with my "gothic" students better than any other teacher I know, and we communicate about these matters very well. The "Christian" church, again IMO, has abdicated any authoritative say so in many matters concerning life such as dance, dress, nature, literature, movies, alternative medicines - just art and life in general by summarily termimg that so much of it is devilish without regard to the fine qualities involved. Unless it is about God, it is considered anathema. How can that be when God has given us all things richly to enjoy. That God doesn't sound very attractive to me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is don't censor, enjoy together, and discuss, and educate.
It's that or write something better - or, I guess be a monk (no offense meant to any monks - or non-monks).
How dare you express your opinion well you can but only if it agrees with the crowd otherwise it's not an opinion anymore somehow it changes into an insult. Thanks for being the new gang bang fodder Hey maybe I'll finally catch up...
way to stir up the shihite WD... I don't think anyone had a problem with JL expressing his opinion, it's just that the way he expressed it kind of came across as a put down...
As to you...
No one has a problem with you expressing your opinion either, but when you do - as many have pointed out - you don't need to "slam" everyone who happens to not agree with you...
Boy... talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
Simply saying that personally you (rhetorical) don't much care for something has been said many times with no argument, discourse or otherwise "gang bang" as you put it.
You and JL, however, have shown a keen talent for insulting and demeaning those who disagree with you (this thread isn't the first time). We've already been through this with you many times and I'm not going to even begin to try to explain it to you again, but as for JL here's one comment in particular that was like a slap in the face to me:
quote:
He, back in the day of the HP fad, always thought of his "HP flocking friends" as wannabes, and so, I knew that I had done my job as his Dad.
Perhaps a little diplomacy, a little less judgmentalism would be too much to ask. But if you are going to continue to insult people who don't necessarily enjoy, think or agree with your pov, then don't be surprised when people treat you like you treat them. :)-->
When I first heard about the HP books, I had a similar reaction: "Oh boy, witchcraft and spells--yuck." Then I saw the first Harry Potter movie and saw why the books were popular. Lots of adventure and laughs and fun. The "magic" part is secondary. It's a fictional device to give the stories color.
Personally,
I had heard specific complaints about the Harry Potter books, so I didn't read them,
and had no interest in the first movie. When the first movie made it to tv, I
looked it over, and kept looking for the issues that had been raised
(supposed insults on normal humans, teaching kids to be disrespectful, etc.)
I was unable to find them. I thus concluded that the complaints were manufactured
and without merit, and the first movie wasn't a DIY for Satanism.
On the recommendation of 2 Christians, I picked up the first four books and read
them in succession. It was in that period I became a fan. I find them an
entertaining read and grist for interesting discussions.
Fwiw, the witchcraft practiced in Harry Potter is nothing like what is practiced in modern Wicca/Wichcraft/Pagan beliefs and religions. It is fantasy. Harry Potter is, culturally at least, a Christian(he celebrates Christmas, not Yule or Winter Solstice.)
Common Wiccan beliefs like the Rede or Charge of the goddess etc, are not part of the Harry Potter universe.
The covens and circles I'm familiar with won't even consider a member or even a space in a class to someone who is under eighteen--unless the parents give permission. One group requires a parent to sign a kid up for a class,(unlike TWI.) A note won't work.
They are not recruiting kids and believe witnessing and persuading people to join your beliefs is wrong, that a person has to seek out their own beliefs.
Really, Wiccans etc are not that scary,and once you get out of the highschool/college age group you don't find many goths. In my age range, most of the pagan types around here are raising families, paying mortagages and tend to dress for everyday like everyone else.
Enjoy it while it lasts because I think I'm about to be voted off the island.
P.S. You've got mail.
Garth Thanks I had a wonderful day today.
Once we seperated your point from the abuse issue at the Way it makes perfect sense. I just dont see it that way. So we'll just agree to disagree Ok! Sorry if I pushed your buttons also.
Dearest Vickles
You might wanna paint your house or something while you wait for my reply you know how fast I am at typing. Tell Froggy Hi!
P.S. I did more than glance at the books though. But I have no interest in books that promote magic,spells,wizards and so forth. My choice! I don't wish to contribute to its success or financial gain. It stands in opposition to my core of biblical beliefs.
Reikilady Sorry it took so long been meaning to say this
No offence to anyone else but I think you had the classiest post on this thread. While I don't share all of your views you were most kind in your presentation. Oak is a very lucky man.
Well I do have to go for now the new Maralyn Manson CD drops at midnight tonight and I wanna get my copy..... -->
Quote Belle: Simply saying that personally you (rhetorical) don't much care for something has been said many times with no argument, discourse or otherwise "gang bang" as you put
Not true!
Here is my post:
Sorry I just don't see the attraction. I wouldn't walk to the mailbox if there were a case of free ones sitting there.
Well then again maybe if it were trash day....
If you look at my 1st post you wil see I did not mention you or anyone else only the book.You could have ignored it or replied Sorry you feel that way but I liked the book. But From that point on you have been in my face as to why I posted And why my point of view is wrong. If you look back it was you who posted the first insult look it up dear.
Quote Belle: Well, Dovey, you're in good company. You and the pope can sit around with all the TWIts and discuss how we're all stoopid for enjoying these fantasy stories.
You might want to reread your advice:
Perhaps a little diplomacy, a little less judgmentalism would be too much to ask. But if you are going to continue to insult people who don't necessarily enjoy, think or agree with your pov, then don't be surprised when people treat you like you treat them.
Quote Belle: "Simply saying that personally you (rhetorical) don't much care for something has been said many times with no argument, discourse or otherwise "gang bang" as you put it." (7/22/05, 2:20pm Eastern.)
WhiteDove:
Not true!
Here is my post:
"Sorry I just don't see the attraction. I wouldn't walk to the mailbox if there were a case of free ones sitting there.
Well then again maybe if it were trash day...." (7/19/05, 2:54pm)
If you look at my 1st post you wil see I did not mention you or anyone else only the book.You could have ignored it or replied,
"Sorry you feel that way but I liked the book."
But From that point on you have been in my face as to why I posted And why my point of view is wrong. If you look back it was you who posted the first insult look it up dear.
Quote Belle:
"Well, Dovey, you're in good company. You and the pope can sit around with all the TWIts and discuss how we're all stoopid for enjoying these fantasy stories."
(7/19/05, 6:09pm)
You might want to reread your advice:
"Perhaps a little diplomacy, a little less judgmentalism would be too much to ask. But if you are going to continue to insult people who don't necessarily enjoy, think or agree with your pov, then don't be surprised when people treat you like you treat them.
WhiteDove, that was true, but not the WHOLE TRUTH.
BTW, please break up the quotes visually in some way so we can see where you are
speaking, and where someone else is speaking.
I broke it up above so people can see what claim you're currently making.
I added the dates/times to the quotes as well.
Now, as to my claim about the WHOLE TRUTH.
You claimed you played nice until someone else took a cheap shot.
Here's the order:
WhiteDove: (7/19/05, 2:54pm)
quote:
Sorry I just don't see the attraction. I wouldn'y walk to the mailbox if there
were a case of free ones sitting there. Well then again maybe if it were trash day.
That's not an insult.
Rascal: (7/19/05, 3:03pm)
quote:
Umm have you read any of the books dove? That might explain why you wouldn't
see the attraction. ;-)
Lol, I was of the EXACT same opinion a few years back when some folks made some very
astute points on a raging thread back on waydale.
I decided to proof read the books before allowing the kiddoes to be exposed to such
spiritual trash...lol who'd a think that I'd a become an even more avid fan than the
kiddoes. :-)
That's not an insult.
Raf: (7/19/05, 3:08pm Eastern)
quote:
I remember that thread. People were citing 'The Onion as proof that JK Rowling
hated Christians and Christianity. That's like using the movie 'Airplane' to prove
that automatic pilots are made of vinyl.
That's not an insult.
WhiteDove: (7/19/05, 3:56pm Eastern)
quote:
Yes Rascal. I spent some time looking through the first one at least until I
could not stomach anymore. The spiritual kingdom does not hold any fascination over
me, I am well aware of their motives. So while wee ones anxiously wait for the wee
hours when a fictional tale of a wee wizard will be released. I'll be waiting also,
for the risen Son of God to return.
THAT was the comment that prompted the other responses.
Rascal: (7/19/05, 4:12pm)
quote:
Different strokes dove, different strokes my friend..
Jesus Christ will no doubt come back whether I read Harry Potter or not...
They know that is is pure fun...to be taken no more seriousl than star wars or
lord of the rings, batman or super man. :-)
That wasn't an insult, but a polite disagreement.
Raf: (7/19/05, 4:56pm)
quote:
I wasn't aware one hope precluded another Hope.
That was another disagreement, quite civil.
Considering you basically had said
"Well, I'll be a good Christian, but all of you who enjoy Harry Potter and await the
6th book are NOT good Christians,", I thought that was quite a polite response.
THEN Belle made the comment you objected to.
Her reply was not to your initial post-
WHICH NO ONE OBJECTED TO-
but to your followup post that had an accusation in it.
So, I looked it up, WhiteDove, and YOU posted the first insult,
although you phrased it in a less-obvious way than just saying
"you're spiritually negligent and irresponsible", which was the substance of your
reply.
And, as we see,
Belle was right-just saying you disagreed was fine.
The only real response to you after that was "Did you read the books? You might like
Wow! My post was referred to by at least three or four different posters! Seems as if my comments hit a nerve there! Well sorry, I was just telling you all how I happen to feel about it, that's all.
You have your beliefs, and I have mine. Somebody opened this discussion up here, and asked for comments on the subject, and so, I presented mine. So, you do not like my opinion? Well, that's ok...
Obviously, if I do not agree with you, then you will think that I think that your line of logic is wrong, or, whatever. Well, then, we happily disagree!
I have been at work for ten long hours hanging sheetrock, and I am awfully tired. Plus, I stopped at the local neighborhood bar (G.W. Teals) and had a few drinks with the crew. And ya know, I am not really too ready to mount a defense here.
Let's just say that my opinion is my own, and that it differs from yours. When it comes to your opinion, have at it and make it live!
I just wanted to say a few more things here. After I took part of "jumping on a major bandwagon", that is, TWI, I just plain decided that my earlier disdain for "not going for some trendy thing" (not reading the Hobitt, not seeing Star Wars (and "Rocky") for that matter), was a good thing.
It seems to me that the "rush to Harry Potter" is nothing more than the "same old same old", of the World foisting it's usual trendiness upon all of us, and so, I will not bend to it, that's all...
Does this anger you? Well, sorry, then be angry. I am simply sharing with you my opinion on this subject, which I was asked to do with the title of this thread. You are more than welcome to happily disagree!! :)-->
Well, I'll be a good Christian, but all of you who enjoy Harry Potter and await the
6th book are NOT good Christians,", I thought that was quite a polite response.
That was not my post and you know it.
I never called anyone a good or bad Christian only stated MY point of view how I felt about the book. I never attacked her personally. If you read the threads before mine there were 45 posts all pro the book. I read them all thought fine their choice . I did not fire off saying they were wrong. Nor did I start off saying Gee did you all ride brooms too ? I could have instead I choose to post my assessment of the book from my point of view. If you want to infer words good or bad christian I suppose you can but they are not my words. Read my post again:
WhitedoveQuote;
Yes Rascal
I spent some time looking through the first one at least until I could not stomach anymore.
My opinion only I know how I felt.
The spiritual kingdom does not hold any facination over me, I am well aware of their motives.
Thats true for ME and also for many others as well. (ME No one else mentioned) I think the Bible tells us we are supposed to be aware.
So while wee ones anxiously wait for the wee hours when a fictional tale of a wee wizard will be released. I'll be waiting also, for the risen Son of God to return.
Just my opinion on why I won't be in line. Neutral- this is what I will be doing. Two waits one for a book and one for the return you could do both but I did not choose to. My Choice and I did not say anyone else could not. I think scripture also tells us we are to anticipate His return and to comfort one another with these words. I Thessalonians I believe. I don't see and good or bad Christian there either. I believe I was doing what the bible says to do keep the Hope in mind and remind others of it.
The first snide remark was as I said from Belle.
P.S. You also failed to note the post following Belle's by Raf he did not see it as a insult either as it appears. She is the one who read it that way because she wanted to.
Quote Raf:
Aw, be nice. Best as I can tell, all Dovey said was he doesn't like the stuff. Gotta be okay with that.
Does this anger you? Well, sorry, then be angry. I am simply sharing with you my opinion on this subject, which I was asked to do with the title of this thread. You are more than welcome to happily disagree!! :)-->
Hey Jonny
Your right that was exactly what I was asking and I understood your point perfectly. The problem is you and I are the only ones that feel that way here I guess. We dont agree with the crowd so they have taken you to task as well. Sorry You can post on my thread anytime you wish. But if you don't agree with the crowd they will be happy to inform you why you should.
You may not have INTENDED to give an impression of being judgemental.
However, that was the substance of what you posted.
Here's what Raf concluded about your posts earlier in this thread,
which you claim were innocent statements of opinion...
quote:
Originally posted by Raf:
Actually, Dove, I think your criticisms went beyond the book; you basically painted the book as a tool of the devil designed to distract people from their Biblical responsibility to be vigilant. It's a logical extension that anyone who enjoys the books has surrendered that Biblical responsibility, a contention I reject.
Please note that Raf makes his living evaluating and composing the printed word.
I'd be slow to accuse him of misunderstanding what was WRITTEN just because it disagrees
with what was MEANT.
This is beating a dead horse at this time, so I won't push this any farther-
unless you feel a need to and I'm inclined to go along.
It seems obvious to me that you refuse to see the slant in what you posted, and insist
what you MEANT is ALL you posted. Invoking child molestation, the dumbing down of
society, and charges of spiritual malfeasance invokes BIAS and LOADED STATEMENTS.
"I didnt mean anything personal when I drew a connection between Harry Potter and books
glorifying child molestation" looks like a non-sensical when written that way.
However, you drew that connection (7/20/05, 2:47pm, page 1, this thread,
moved from the other thread and deleted from there),
and have said that you didn't mean anything personal.
I hope nobody's relying on your ability to communicate PRECISELY what you mean.
Either you MEANT this and are lying, or you DIDN'T mean this and have a knack for finding
loaded language-ways to make what should be innocent statements.
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Belle
Okay, maybe it IS a fad, but I think it will be around and become a "classic" however long it takes for things to be considered "classic". I consider that HP will be mentioned and shared with kids just like Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc.
LOTR has been around for a long time as has The Hobbitt and such. I don't get into LOTR, but I certainly don't pooh-pooh those who do. They enjoy that kind of thing. I don't. It's real simple.
I agree, also, that there are better ways of putting things and that we DO have to be aware of how we think about people who don't necessarily share our enthusiasm or lack thereof.
JL, your post does come across as implying that those of us who are thoroughly enjoying the HP books and the hooplah surrounding their release dates are less honorable than you and your household. I appreciate and understand your distaste for "going along with the crowd" and teaching your children to not get caught up in frenzy and emotions, but I disagree with how you appear to pass judgement on us in the process. Just as many of us are not "wannabees", we're just thoroughly enjoying the books and the hooplah surrounding them. Surely there are SOME things you get excited about like that? I hope so.
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vickles
Whitedove, I know that you usually aren't so judgemental. At least while I had chatted with you for a couple of years now. Your posts give off that you are the one with the know and that everyone else is going away from christianity. It certainly does give off that you are the martyr.
Maybe it has to do with being a parent. Before I had children I was very judgemental about what I would allow my kids and what I wouldn't allow. My kid would never do this as I see a kid having a temper tantrum in the store. LOL Low and behold I have kids and guess what? Temper tantrum galore. I had a strong willed child with a mind of her own. Thats what I get for being judgemental...lol Came back full force.
Maybe this stuff does not interest you as it does interest others. You say you glanced at the book in a store. Which means that you couldn't have given it much time as most people don't spend hours in a book store.
In twi we learned that everything was spiritual. We were looking around every corner for devil spirits.
My son is into the books. Yesterday, a friend of his that is having a very hard time in school and never opens up a book found that these books he loves to read. I was openly surprised with him and thought if it can get one kid to read that wouldn't ever open up a book otherwise it has done a good job.
I haven't read the books myself because I'm not really interested in it but I have seen the movies and it was fascinating. I can understand all the hoopla.
Please reconsider and look deep within yourself to see if its still a little bit of twi in there. I know I have to look within myself at times as twi was so ingrained for a better part of my younger life.
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GarthP2000
First off, I wish to apologize for the intensity of my last post, WhiteDove. I could, and should, have put it better and more civilized.
Basically my point is that I see no abuse in the Harry Potter books and movies, nor do I see anybody taking the books/movies more seriously than Yet Another Popular Fad that we Americans often take part in.
And with that, I hope you have a great day.
:)-->
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Tom
Hi all,
I haven't read all the posts - actually, the only one I read was Linda's because it was the first one listed on the page I open up when I get to gs.
Posting when I haven't read what's going on is usually a mistake, but here goes.
I read the first HP book & liked it - apparently not enought to read any of the others.
I've seen the movies and liked them.
I was at a faculty meeting the other day speaking with the librarian and the school newspaper, yearbook, newsletter, you name it teacher. They started talking about the latest book, and turns out they both had read it, and when I asked, they both had read all the HP books. "Wow," thought. I'm not sure what "wow" means - just that I was impressed that two such adult literary people had read all the HP books.
At that point, I figured it might be a good idea to read the last one.
All that having been said, I must disagree with Linda and whoever else thinks so that the theme of witchcraft is secondary to the humanity theme and the characterization. I think it is an integral part of the mix. While I don't think the "harm" is "irreparable," I do think it is a mistake to think that all the "fantasy/fairy tales" we grew up with or they are growing up with doesn't effect us. The old question of whether art effects culture or culture is an expession of art has a simple answer - both are true. There is no doubt in my mind that the sci-fi & fantasy I read growing up led me to believe in esp, and to my subsequent involvement in esp & witchcraft. I had to learn about it SOMEWHERE. And that's where I did.
And I'm not the only one. I wouldn't make an absolute statement like "kids know the difference between fantasy and reality." They might know that some things are definitely fantasy, and other things are definitely real, but few know where the line is. A lot of the things they think are fantasy, I know to be real magic.
Also, there are quite a lot of "gothic" kids out there, who, while they might enjoy HP, yet believe a lot of it is fantasy; nevertheless, espouse a lot of ideas that go under the umbrella of "nature worship" that many others would consider to be witchcraft, and there is absolutely no line between fantasy and reality agreed upon. Humanity, nature worship, feelings, the feminine side, magic - it's all in the mix. Even here at gs - or anywhere else for that matter, there is no line agreed upon. It's all up for grabs. IMO, there is legitimate concern here. The last two years, at the fourth quarter of the year, I gave all my classes the opportunity to vote on 10 selections from our textbook that they most wanted to read. Each year the five gothic selections in our book - of a gazillion selections - made it to the top 6 positions.
Having said all that, I must say that I get along with my "gothic" students better than any other teacher I know, and we communicate about these matters very well. The "Christian" church, again IMO, has abdicated any authoritative say so in many matters concerning life such as dance, dress, nature, literature, movies, alternative medicines - just art and life in general by summarily termimg that so much of it is devilish without regard to the fine qualities involved. Unless it is about God, it is considered anathema. How can that be when God has given us all things richly to enjoy. That God doesn't sound very attractive to me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is don't censor, enjoy together, and discuss, and educate.
It's that or write something better - or, I guess be a monk (no offense meant to any monks - or non-monks).
Tom
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rascal
Hey Tom, a monk or priest(can`t remember which) wrote my all time favorite story as a child for that very reason....
*The swiss family Robinson*
I agree enjoy together, discuss, and educate.
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Shellon
Rascal, check your PT's please.
Bennigans needs you and your family.
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WhiteDove
Gee Johnny
How dare you express your opinion well you can but only if it agrees with the crowd otherwise it's not an opinion anymore somehow it changes into an insult. Thanks for being the new gang bang fodder Hey maybe I'll finally catch up...
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Tom Strange
way to stir up the shihite WD... I don't think anyone had a problem with JL expressing his opinion, it's just that the way he expressed it kind of came across as a put down...
As to you...
No one has a problem with you expressing your opinion either, but when you do - as many have pointed out - you don't need to "slam" everyone who happens to not agree with you...
Boy... talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
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rascal
You are mischaracterising us and our pov Dove, it is unfair and unworthey of you.
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Belle
Simply saying that personally you (rhetorical) don't much care for something has been said many times with no argument, discourse or otherwise "gang bang" as you put it.
You and JL, however, have shown a keen talent for insulting and demeaning those who disagree with you (this thread isn't the first time). We've already been through this with you many times and I'm not going to even begin to try to explain it to you again, but as for JL here's one comment in particular that was like a slap in the face to me:
Perhaps a little diplomacy, a little less judgmentalism would be too much to ask. But if you are going to continue to insult people who don't necessarily enjoy, think or agree with your pov, then don't be surprised when people treat you like you treat them.
:)-->
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Cowgirl
Just got to say, this sure beats watching reality TV!!
Cowgirl
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Raf
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Tom Strange
Raf... chips? popcorn? or HAGGIS?!?!?
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WordWolf
Personally,
I had heard specific complaints about the Harry Potter books, so I didn't read them,
and had no interest in the first movie. When the first movie made it to tv, I
looked it over, and kept looking for the issues that had been raised
(supposed insults on normal humans, teaching kids to be disrespectful, etc.)
I was unable to find them. I thus concluded that the complaints were manufactured
and without merit, and the first movie wasn't a DIY for Satanism.
On the recommendation of 2 Christians, I picked up the first four books and read
them in succession. It was in that period I became a fan. I find them an
entertaining read and grist for interesting discussions.
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Bramble
Fwiw, the witchcraft practiced in Harry Potter is nothing like what is practiced in modern Wicca/Wichcraft/Pagan beliefs and religions. It is fantasy. Harry Potter is, culturally at least, a Christian(he celebrates Christmas, not Yule or Winter Solstice.)
Common Wiccan beliefs like the Rede or Charge of the goddess etc, are not part of the Harry Potter universe.
The covens and circles I'm familiar with won't even consider a member or even a space in a class to someone who is under eighteen--unless the parents give permission. One group requires a parent to sign a kid up for a class,(unlike TWI.) A note won't work.
They are not recruiting kids and believe witnessing and persuading people to join your beliefs is wrong, that a person has to seek out their own beliefs.
Really, Wiccans etc are not that scary,and once you get out of the highschool/college age group you don't find many goths. In my age range, most of the pagan types around here are raising families, paying mortagages and tend to dress for everyday like everyone else.
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GarthP2000
... but at night, its .........
PARTY TIME ROUND THE STONEHENGE!!!
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WhiteDove
Man been away all day I'll never catch up.
Cowgirl You owe me Big time
Enjoy it while it lasts because I think I'm about to be voted off the island.
P.S. You've got mail.
Garth Thanks I had a wonderful day today.
Once we seperated your point from the abuse issue at the Way it makes perfect sense. I just dont see it that way. So we'll just agree to disagree Ok! Sorry if I pushed your buttons also.
Dearest Vickles
You might wanna paint your house or something while you wait for my reply you know how fast I am at typing. Tell Froggy Hi!
P.S. I did more than glance at the books though. But I have no interest in books that promote magic,spells,wizards and so forth. My choice! I don't wish to contribute to its success or financial gain. It stands in opposition to my core of biblical beliefs.
Reikilady Sorry it took so long been meaning to say this
No offence to anyone else but I think you had the classiest post on this thread. While I don't share all of your views you were most kind in your presentation. Oak is a very lucky man.
Well I do have to go for now the new Maralyn Manson CD drops at midnight tonight and I wanna get my copy.....
-->
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WhiteDove
Quote Belle: Simply saying that personally you (rhetorical) don't much care for something has been said many times with no argument, discourse or otherwise "gang bang" as you put
Not true!
Here is my post:
Sorry I just don't see the attraction. I wouldn't walk to the mailbox if there were a case of free ones sitting there.
Well then again maybe if it were trash day....
If you look at my 1st post you wil see I did not mention you or anyone else only the book.You could have ignored it or replied Sorry you feel that way but I liked the book. But From that point on you have been in my face as to why I posted And why my point of view is wrong. If you look back it was you who posted the first insult look it up dear.
Quote Belle: Well, Dovey, you're in good company. You and the pope can sit around with all the TWIts and discuss how we're all stoopid for enjoying these fantasy stories.
You might want to reread your advice:
Perhaps a little diplomacy, a little less judgmentalism would be too much to ask. But if you are going to continue to insult people who don't necessarily enjoy, think or agree with your pov, then don't be surprised when people treat you like you treat them.
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WordWolf
WhiteDove, that was true, but not the WHOLE TRUTH.
BTW, please break up the quotes visually in some way so we can see where you are
speaking, and where someone else is speaking.
I broke it up above so people can see what claim you're currently making.
I added the dates/times to the quotes as well.
Now, as to my claim about the WHOLE TRUTH.
You claimed you played nice until someone else took a cheap shot.
Here's the order:
WhiteDove: (7/19/05, 2:54pm)
That's not an insult.
Rascal: (7/19/05, 3:03pm)
That's not an insult.
Raf: (7/19/05, 3:08pm Eastern)
That's not an insult.
WhiteDove: (7/19/05, 3:56pm Eastern)
THAT was the comment that prompted the other responses.
Rascal: (7/19/05, 4:12pm)
That wasn't an insult, but a polite disagreement.
Raf: (7/19/05, 4:56pm)
That was another disagreement, quite civil.
Considering you basically had said
"Well, I'll be a good Christian, but all of you who enjoy Harry Potter and await the
6th book are NOT good Christians,", I thought that was quite a polite response.
THEN Belle made the comment you objected to.
Her reply was not to your initial post-
WHICH NO ONE OBJECTED TO-
but to your followup post that had an accusation in it.
So, I looked it up, WhiteDove, and YOU posted the first insult,
although you phrased it in a less-obvious way than just saying
"you're spiritually negligent and irresponsible", which was the substance of your
reply.
And, as we see,
Belle was right-just saying you disagreed was fine.
The only real response to you after that was "Did you read the books? You might like
them if you read them."
Do you see the difference NOW?
I'm sure everyone else does....
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J0nny Ling0
Wow! My post was referred to by at least three or four different posters! Seems as if my comments hit a nerve there! Well sorry, I was just telling you all how I happen to feel about it, that's all.
You have your beliefs, and I have mine. Somebody opened this discussion up here, and asked for comments on the subject, and so, I presented mine. So, you do not like my opinion? Well, that's ok...
Obviously, if I do not agree with you, then you will think that I think that your line of logic is wrong, or, whatever. Well, then, we happily disagree!
I have been at work for ten long hours hanging sheetrock, and I am awfully tired. Plus, I stopped at the local neighborhood bar (G.W. Teals) and had a few drinks with the crew. And ya know, I am not really too ready to mount a defense here.
Let's just say that my opinion is my own, and that it differs from yours. When it comes to your opinion, have at it and make it live!
And I will do the same with mine...
Zakamuka
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J0nny Ling0
I just wanted to say a few more things here. After I took part of "jumping on a major bandwagon", that is, TWI, I just plain decided that my earlier disdain for "not going for some trendy thing" (not reading the Hobitt, not seeing Star Wars (and "Rocky") for that matter), was a good thing.
It seems to me that the "rush to Harry Potter" is nothing more than the "same old same old", of the World foisting it's usual trendiness upon all of us, and so, I will not bend to it, that's all...
Does this anger you? Well, sorry, then be angry. I am simply sharing with you my opinion on this subject, which I was asked to do with the title of this thread. You are more than welcome to happily disagree!!
:)-->
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WhiteDove
Quote WordWolf
Well, I'll be a good Christian, but all of you who enjoy Harry Potter and await the
6th book are NOT good Christians,", I thought that was quite a polite response.
That was not my post and you know it.
I never called anyone a good or bad Christian only stated MY point of view how I felt about the book. I never attacked her personally. If you read the threads before mine there were 45 posts all pro the book. I read them all thought fine their choice . I did not fire off saying they were wrong. Nor did I start off saying Gee did you all ride brooms too ? I could have instead I choose to post my assessment of the book from my point of view. If you want to infer words good or bad christian I suppose you can but they are not my words. Read my post again:
WhitedoveQuote;
Yes Rascal
I spent some time looking through the first one at least until I could not stomach anymore.
My opinion only I know how I felt.
The spiritual kingdom does not hold any facination over me, I am well aware of their motives.
Thats true for ME and also for many others as well. (ME No one else mentioned) I think the Bible tells us we are supposed to be aware.
So while wee ones anxiously wait for the wee hours when a fictional tale of a wee wizard will be released. I'll be waiting also, for the risen Son of God to return.
Just my opinion on why I won't be in line. Neutral- this is what I will be doing. Two waits one for a book and one for the return you could do both but I did not choose to. My Choice and I did not say anyone else could not. I think scripture also tells us we are to anticipate His return and to comfort one another with these words. I Thessalonians I believe. I don't see and good or bad Christian there either. I believe I was doing what the bible says to do keep the Hope in mind and remind others of it.
The first snide remark was as I said from Belle.
P.S. You also failed to note the post following Belle's by Raf he did not see it as a insult either as it appears. She is the one who read it that way because she wanted to.
Quote Raf:
Aw, be nice. Best as I can tell, all Dovey said was he doesn't like the stuff. Gotta be okay with that.
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WhiteDove
Hey Jonny
Your right that was exactly what I was asking and I understood your point perfectly. The problem is you and I are the only ones that feel that way here I guess. We dont agree with the crowd so they have taken you to task as well. Sorry You can post on my thread anytime you wish. But if you don't agree with the crowd they will be happy to inform you why you should.
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WordWolf
WhiteDove, I read your posts, and re-read them.
You may not have INTENDED to give an impression of being judgemental.
However, that was the substance of what you posted.
Here's what Raf concluded about your posts earlier in this thread,
which you claim were innocent statements of opinion...
Please note that Raf makes his living evaluating and composing the printed word.
I'd be slow to accuse him of misunderstanding what was WRITTEN just because it disagrees
with what was MEANT.
This is beating a dead horse at this time, so I won't push this any farther-
unless you feel a need to and I'm inclined to go along.
It seems obvious to me that you refuse to see the slant in what you posted, and insist
what you MEANT is ALL you posted. Invoking child molestation, the dumbing down of
society, and charges of spiritual malfeasance invokes BIAS and LOADED STATEMENTS.
"I didnt mean anything personal when I drew a connection between Harry Potter and books
glorifying child molestation" looks like a non-sensical when written that way.
However, you drew that connection (7/20/05, 2:47pm, page 1, this thread,
moved from the other thread and deleted from there),
and have said that you didn't mean anything personal.
I hope nobody's relying on your ability to communicate PRECISELY what you mean.
Either you MEANT this and are lying, or you DIDN'T mean this and have a knack for finding
loaded language-ways to make what should be innocent statements.
Either way, I'd seek better communication.
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