I agree appearances are deceptive.... in the way and in her books both. but what you said was that her books were acceptable because in your opinion her books caused less damage.
A-n-n-d-d how many kids/readers/other Harry Potter enthusiasts have been harmed to anywhere near that how TWI harmed people? ... Or any verifiable harm done at all?
This should be good. ... (uh ohh, another subtle intimidation tactic employed by yours truly to silence people ..... as tho' that were *really* my vile intent to begin with. ((insert wicked laughter here)))
Perhaps I've miss it...sorry if I did, but have you read any of the Harry Potter Series?
I spent some time reading parts which I generaly do when buying a book. I was not impressed with what I read so I declined to purchase any. As in the latest one Ghosts rising out of toilets is not my thing.
A-n-n-d-d how many kids/readers/other Harry Potter enthusiasts have been harmed to anywhere near that how TWI harmed people? ... Or any verifiable harm done at all?
I have no idea Garth perhaps that would be a good project for you to do to keep busy . I have no idea how you would gather the info though since it may take years to see the results of either.
I do wonder why Harry Potter has anything to do with The Way and abuse though. Oh now I remember if you run out of points just say what about the abuse that somehow proves your point.
Dove, I have no problem with you not likeing HP, your loss....it is a shame though that you have to maligne that which you do not understand ...too bad that you have to maligne those who no longer fall within your catagory of thinking as well.
I have no idea Garth perhaps that would be a good project for you to do to keep busy . I have no idea how you would gather the info though since it may take years to see the results of either.
Aside from Garth's sarcasm (how could you miss it, laid on with a trowel as it was) HE'S not the one claiming harm, WD, YOU are.
Then again as a Christian I don't find abuse Spiritual or Physical Mental or Sexual particularly funny. Abuse happens every day around the world and still in the Way. It has absolutely nothing to do with validating some second rate fantasy book. To attempt do so in my opinion is insulting to those who have suffered its grip. In short I find it pretty f@#king offensive.
Harry Potter is a book it will stand or fall on its own merits. So be it! Assuming Garth's point is correct for a moment even if the abuse is 100 times greater from the Way it does not validate some books greatness. Percent of abuse shows just that percent of abuse, not the worth of some pathetic read.
Actually I think I was pretty easy on him all things considered. If he wants to be a funny man and poke fun at my Christian beliefs fine But to use real abused people as some statistic to somehow lend approval to a book is not funny in the least.
You maligne rowlings stories because you either cannot or will not apreciate their value.
You maligne and insult us by equating our enjoyment of her books with the support of physical and sexual abuse....an allegation which I find personally offensive.
Your paralells are completely unfoundeded .....but you wave scriptures or the name of Jesus like some banner and seems to make you feel some how more rightious than the rest of us........
My whole point was that we learned from being in twi that scriptures in a written work do not necessarily make for spiritual healthy material.....like wise lack of scriptures do not necessarily point to spiritual nasty in a story.
I am glad that I can enjoy her works along with all of the other great epics that have been coming out ....Star Wars whew...Lord of the rings...great fun....the lion the witch and the wardrobe is coming out this Christmas....(yeah it is an outstanding CHRISTIAN allegory and yes it has witches and magic in it) so glad that I can enjoy these epics wholeheartedly without fear of contamination...
I know where you are coming from......honestly, I have been on both sides of the issue....that is why I cannot get too angry...I understand the feeling of drawing a line in the stand...thinking I am standing up for God in the spiritual battle.....it is a noble thing that you believe you are doing... (edited for being extranious)
You are capable of doing so without casting aspersions on your fellow Christians though.
Percent of abuse shows just that percent of abuse, not the worth of some pathetic read. ... (and following rant that basically misses my point!)
The *point* I was making was the comparison between the abuse in TWI, and the *NO* abuse supposedly suffered by those who read the book/watch the movie! Oh wait, there's spiritual suffering that isn't physical that comes from Harry Potter? Ok. Prove it! Or prove where Harry Potter is showing this selfsame abuse whereas things like Hansel and Gretel, Bewitched, Star Wars, and the like _fiction_.
Yes. Fiction. Not real accounts. Like you aren't going to have the same things of 'devilish magic' occur with you that happened with the characters by reading said _fiction_. ... Ergo, NO abuse. Hell, there were even more radicals who took Dungeons and Dragons too seriously that led to abusive behavior than any of the Harry Potter afficienadoes, and they were in the small minority.
Ridiculing or 'poking fun at' your religious beliefs? No more than you ridiculing either the pagan beliefs you deride, nor those who are really into Harry Potter. So please, spare us the 'suffering persecution for the Lord' act, ok? You aren't very good at it.
-->
P.S., oh and by the way, thanks for 'going easy on me'. I just tremble to think of what I would have went through if you really cranked it up.
No Harry Potter in my home. What disturbs me about it is the fact that it is such a "fad". I have always taught my kids that when it seems like people are acting like sheep and rushing and flocking to something like moths to a street lamp, that it is better to remain in the shadows and just watch for a while, instead of piling on.
When I was a kid in fifth grade, at least 2/3ds of the class was flocking to "The Hobbitt". There they all were during reading time, reading The Hobbitt like a bunch of Bilbo Baggins wannabes. And so, I refused to read it. I read my books about the American Maountain Men such as Jim Bridger, Kit Carson, Hugh Glass, and John Colter. I reveled in the historical reality of things that were filled with adventure and past realities, of life and death and "daring do".
Now later on, after the big fad subsided, I did in fact read The Hobbit, and I did in fact enjoy it. But, it was just a passing enjoyment, and I was glad to know that I was not one of the "sheep" that was caught up in the fad of the moment. I never read any more of Tolkien.
I had the same attitude to the first Star Wars movie. I refused to allow myself to stand in line with a bunch of "Spock ear wearing" Star Wars droolers". It just wasn't me. A few years later, when the lines finally shortened, I went to see it, and enjoyed it, but wasn't really caught up in it very much. Good story, neat effects.
And so, no Harry Potter here. When the first flurry of Harry Potter books came around, I had the same attitude here in my home. And as time went on, I told my eldest son, hey, why don'tcha check out Harry Potter now that the fad has died out? And he did, and he thought the books were boring, and nowhere near the literary level of the phantasy novels that he enjoys. He, back in the day of the HP fad, always thought of his "HP flocking friends" as wannabes, and so, I knew that I had done my job as his Dad.
But I am the kind of "Bad Dad" who from the git go have taught my kids that Santa Claus is a big load of BS, that there is no Easter Bunny, and that things that are not true, are not worth believing in. And my kids have always enjoyed the fact that they were "in the know" concerning the things that are true, and the things that are false.
I have just wanted my kids to be able to stop and think;
"Wait a minute, why should I be one of these people who jump on the "bandwagon of the moment" that the media is is urging society to participate in?"
and so OLM Lingo, did YOU ever pick up one of the books and give them a try? now that it's been so many years?
and I know that you're just saying that "that's how YOU are" but there's nothing wrong if folks like the way someone writes and want to get a little excited about a new offering... is there?
you could've just said "I don't really get all the fuss" without phrasing things so that it makes all of these folks look like lemmings...
I know that I'd probably get right down to the bookstore if I heard another Dan Brown of Tom Boswell book was out... maybe not at midnight, but soon...
Oh geeze, so in addition to being spiritually asleep at the switch, guilty of promoting something as evil as sexual molstation...we are now considered hp wannabees and flocking like lemmings gathering to run over the cliff....
Consider please, that the need to thoroughly trash someone or something that doesn`t happen to appeal to us personally is an unsavory habit that people once associated with twi all to readily employ.
Lemmee get this straight Johnny L, you deny yourself the pleasure of reading current favorites and lack the ability to converse with other folks who enjoy the book.... and this is supposed to be impressive?
Why don`t you tape the super bowl, the basket ball playooffs... or the world series and watch em all 5 years hence ...better yet, why not lock yourself away from the world for 5 years and reemeerge and then indulge yourself in the things folks found entertaining when you secluded yourself.....what have you proven??....what is the big deal?? What is it about waiting makes you feel so special???
So as I understand it.... HP is ok as long as we wait 5 to 10 years to read it....somehow that will make it a little more wholsome and us more spiritual, and we will have proven some point.
No, I'm standing up for Jonny on this. It is a fad, and I am happily caught up in it, and enjoying the ride. Some things I don't get into; some things I do.
Jonny, poodle skirts are a fad. Popularity of a series of books isn't a fad, it's an expression of public opinion.
Personally, fantasy isn't a fiction genre I enjoy much, but I certainly don't begrudge anyone else the pleasure they get from Harry Potter books.
Apparently there's a reason for their popularity. I hear from adult friends at work who enjoy reading them with their children that they're well written, have great plots, and include wonderful lessons about friendship and loyalty and all that good stuff.
WD, I don't have time to go back through your many posts. Let me just say that I like you, but I think you're maybe overreacting.
When I first heard about the HP books, I had a similar reaction: "Oh boy, witchcraft and spells--yuck." Then I saw the first Harry Potter movie and saw why the books were popular. Lots of adventure and laughs and fun. The "magic" part is secondary. It's a fictional device to give the stories color.
The point someone else made about all the other fantasy/fairy tales we grew up with not doing us irreparable harm is a good one. I didn't believe growing up that the Good Fairy was going to wave her magic wand and send me to the prom in a converted pumpkin, a la Cinderella. I didn't think that the Good Witch in The Wizard of Oz was a role model, and I didn't rush out to a seance when I watched all the cheesy horror movies in the early 60s that featured them.
In short, kids know the difference between fantasy and reality. It's a pretend world Harry lives in, which serves as a backdrop for real human feelings and character. I guess you could call the HP stories allegorical and, as someone pointed out, C.S. Lewis wrote fantasy that the Christian world is ga-ga over.
I'm not suggesting that this discussion should stop, but I will say it would have been a short one if everyone just respected each other's opposing opinions and said, "Hey, we disagree. Won't be the first time!"
Oh, and by the way, WhiteDove, I'm still very much a Christian, and many of the pro-Harry posters in this thread are, too, so don't think that only those who have "forsaken the faith" are "soft" on Harry Potter or persecuting you, the lone Christian in this thread. I understand your concern. I just think it's misplaced.
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Belle
Ahhhhh, but how do you know what their purpose is? It seems to me that you have misjudged the purpose.
;)-->
I didn't either, but I did try to wiggle my nose like Samantha.
:P-->
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WhiteDove
[Quote
I didn't either, but I did try to wiggle my nose like Samantha.
See there ya go you saw and immitated the first step on the road down.
:D-->
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Raf
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Raf
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WhiteDove
It was a joke Raf....hA hA hA
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GarthP2000
A-n-n-d-d how many kids/readers/other Harry Potter enthusiasts have been harmed to anywhere near that how TWI harmed people? ... Or any verifiable harm done at all?
This should be good. ... (uh ohh, another subtle intimidation tactic employed by yours truly to silence people ..... as tho' that were *really* my vile intent to begin with. ((insert wicked laughter here)))
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Tom Strange
I have decided to have my mail delivered by an owl.
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karmicdebt
WhiteDove,
Perhaps I've miss it...sorry if I did, but have you read any of the Harry Potter Series?
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Raf
Umm, I knew that. My reply was a joke as well.
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WhiteDove
I spent some time reading parts which I generaly do when buying a book. I was not impressed with what I read so I declined to purchase any. As in the latest one Ghosts rising out of toilets is not my thing.
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WhiteDove
Originally posted by GarthP2000:
A-n-n-d-d how many kids/readers/other Harry Potter enthusiasts have been harmed to anywhere near that how TWI harmed people? ... Or any verifiable harm done at all?
I have no idea Garth perhaps that would be a good project for you to do to keep busy . I have no idea how you would gather the info though since it may take years to see the results of either.
I do wonder why Harry Potter has anything to do with The Way and abuse though. Oh now I remember if you run out of points just say what about the abuse that somehow proves your point.
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rascal
Dove, I have no problem with you not likeing HP, your loss....it is a shame though that you have to maligne that which you do not understand ...too bad that you have to maligne those who no longer fall within your catagory of thinking as well.
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Oakspear
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WhiteDove
Gee Oak I must have missed the joke....
Then again as a Christian I don't find abuse Spiritual or Physical Mental or Sexual particularly funny. Abuse happens every day around the world and still in the Way. It has absolutely nothing to do with validating some second rate fantasy book. To attempt do so in my opinion is insulting to those who have suffered its grip. In short I find it pretty f@#king offensive.
Harry Potter is a book it will stand or fall on its own merits. So be it! Assuming Garth's point is correct for a moment even if the abuse is 100 times greater from the Way it does not validate some books greatness. Percent of abuse shows just that percent of abuse, not the worth of some pathetic read.
Actually I think I was pretty easy on him all things considered. If he wants to be a funny man and poke fun at my Christian beliefs fine But to use real abused people as some statistic to somehow lend approval to a book is not funny in the least.
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WhiteDove
Well I don't think that was quite their point but I'll pass along your views to them.
Judging from the response here I don't think you have to worry any about equal footing it's about 20 to 1 in the others favor.
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WhiteDove
Sorry Rascal
Come again please I guess I have missed your point.
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rascal
I know DoveI will try to elaborate....
You maligne rowlings stories because you either cannot or will not apreciate their value.
You maligne and insult us by equating our enjoyment of her books with the support of physical and sexual abuse....an allegation which I find personally offensive.
Your paralells are completely unfoundeded .....but you wave scriptures or the name of Jesus like some banner and seems to make you feel some how more rightious than the rest of us........
My whole point was that we learned from being in twi that scriptures in a written work do not necessarily make for spiritual healthy material.....like wise lack of scriptures do not necessarily point to spiritual nasty in a story.
I am glad that I can enjoy her works along with all of the other great epics that have been coming out ....Star Wars whew...Lord of the rings...great fun....the lion the witch and the wardrobe is coming out this Christmas....(yeah it is an outstanding CHRISTIAN allegory and yes it has witches and magic in it) so glad that I can enjoy these epics wholeheartedly without fear of contamination...
I know where you are coming from......honestly, I have been on both sides of the issue....that is why I cannot get too angry...I understand the feeling of drawing a line in the stand...thinking I am standing up for God in the spiritual battle.....it is a noble thing that you believe you are doing... (edited for being extranious)
You are capable of doing so without casting aspersions on your fellow Christians though.
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GarthP2000
Whitedove,
The *point* I was making was the comparison between the abuse in TWI, and the *NO* abuse supposedly suffered by those who read the book/watch the movie! Oh wait, there's spiritual suffering that isn't physical that comes from Harry Potter? Ok. Prove it! Or prove where Harry Potter is showing this selfsame abuse whereas things like Hansel and Gretel, Bewitched, Star Wars, and the like _fiction_.
Yes. Fiction. Not real accounts. Like you aren't going to have the same things of 'devilish magic' occur with you that happened with the characters by reading said _fiction_. ... Ergo, NO abuse. Hell, there were even more radicals who took Dungeons and Dragons too seriously that led to abusive behavior than any of the Harry Potter afficienadoes, and they were in the small minority.
Ridiculing or 'poking fun at' your religious beliefs? No more than you ridiculing either the pagan beliefs you deride, nor those who are really into Harry Potter. So please, spare us the 'suffering persecution for the Lord' act, ok? You aren't very good at it.
P.S., oh and by the way, thanks for 'going easy on me'. I just tremble to think of what I would have went through if you really cranked it up.
(posted with dripping sarcasm)
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J0nny Ling0
No Harry Potter in my home. What disturbs me about it is the fact that it is such a "fad". I have always taught my kids that when it seems like people are acting like sheep and rushing and flocking to something like moths to a street lamp, that it is better to remain in the shadows and just watch for a while, instead of piling on.
When I was a kid in fifth grade, at least 2/3ds of the class was flocking to "The Hobbitt". There they all were during reading time, reading The Hobbitt like a bunch of Bilbo Baggins wannabes. And so, I refused to read it. I read my books about the American Maountain Men such as Jim Bridger, Kit Carson, Hugh Glass, and John Colter. I reveled in the historical reality of things that were filled with adventure and past realities, of life and death and "daring do".
Now later on, after the big fad subsided, I did in fact read The Hobbit, and I did in fact enjoy it. But, it was just a passing enjoyment, and I was glad to know that I was not one of the "sheep" that was caught up in the fad of the moment. I never read any more of Tolkien.
I had the same attitude to the first Star Wars movie. I refused to allow myself to stand in line with a bunch of "Spock ear wearing" Star Wars droolers". It just wasn't me. A few years later, when the lines finally shortened, I went to see it, and enjoyed it, but wasn't really caught up in it very much. Good story, neat effects.
And so, no Harry Potter here. When the first flurry of Harry Potter books came around, I had the same attitude here in my home. And as time went on, I told my eldest son, hey, why don'tcha check out Harry Potter now that the fad has died out? And he did, and he thought the books were boring, and nowhere near the literary level of the phantasy novels that he enjoys. He, back in the day of the HP fad, always thought of his "HP flocking friends" as wannabes, and so, I knew that I had done my job as his Dad.
But I am the kind of "Bad Dad" who from the git go have taught my kids that Santa Claus is a big load of BS, that there is no Easter Bunny, and that things that are not true, are not worth believing in. And my kids have always enjoyed the fact that they were "in the know" concerning the things that are true, and the things that are false.
I have just wanted my kids to be able to stop and think;
"Wait a minute, why should I be one of these people who jump on the "bandwagon of the moment" that the media is is urging society to participate in?"
And so, that's my story, and I'm stickin to it...
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Tom Strange
and so OLM Lingo, did YOU ever pick up one of the books and give them a try? now that it's been so many years?
and I know that you're just saying that "that's how YOU are" but there's nothing wrong if folks like the way someone writes and want to get a little excited about a new offering... is there?
you could've just said "I don't really get all the fuss" without phrasing things so that it makes all of these folks look like lemmings...
I know that I'd probably get right down to the bookstore if I heard another Dan Brown of Tom Boswell book was out... maybe not at midnight, but soon...
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rascal
Oh geeze, so in addition to being spiritually asleep at the switch, guilty of promoting something as evil as sexual molstation...we are now considered hp wannabees and flocking like lemmings gathering to run over the cliff....
Consider please, that the need to thoroughly trash someone or something that doesn`t happen to appeal to us personally is an unsavory habit that people once associated with twi all to readily employ.
Lemmee get this straight Johnny L, you deny yourself the pleasure of reading current favorites and lack the ability to converse with other folks who enjoy the book.... and this is supposed to be impressive?
Why don`t you tape the super bowl, the basket ball playooffs... or the world series and watch em all 5 years hence ...better yet, why not lock yourself away from the world for 5 years and reemeerge and then indulge yourself in the things folks found entertaining when you secluded yourself.....what have you proven??....what is the big deal?? What is it about waiting makes you feel so special???
So as I understand it.... HP is ok as long as we wait 5 to 10 years to read it....somehow that will make it a little more wholsome and us more spiritual, and we will have proven some point.
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Raf
No, I'm standing up for Jonny on this. It is a fad, and I am happily caught up in it, and enjoying the ride. Some things I don't get into; some things I do.
Ooh, look! A cliff! Gotta run!
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Tom Strange
I think you're just playing another one of your Jedi mind tricks...
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Linda Z
Jonny, poodle skirts are a fad. Popularity of a series of books isn't a fad, it's an expression of public opinion.
Personally, fantasy isn't a fiction genre I enjoy much, but I certainly don't begrudge anyone else the pleasure they get from Harry Potter books.
Apparently there's a reason for their popularity. I hear from adult friends at work who enjoy reading them with their children that they're well written, have great plots, and include wonderful lessons about friendship and loyalty and all that good stuff.
WD, I don't have time to go back through your many posts. Let me just say that I like you, but I think you're maybe overreacting.
When I first heard about the HP books, I had a similar reaction: "Oh boy, witchcraft and spells--yuck." Then I saw the first Harry Potter movie and saw why the books were popular. Lots of adventure and laughs and fun. The "magic" part is secondary. It's a fictional device to give the stories color.
The point someone else made about all the other fantasy/fairy tales we grew up with not doing us irreparable harm is a good one. I didn't believe growing up that the Good Fairy was going to wave her magic wand and send me to the prom in a converted pumpkin, a la Cinderella. I didn't think that the Good Witch in The Wizard of Oz was a role model, and I didn't rush out to a seance when I watched all the cheesy horror movies in the early 60s that featured them.
In short, kids know the difference between fantasy and reality. It's a pretend world Harry lives in, which serves as a backdrop for real human feelings and character. I guess you could call the HP stories allegorical and, as someone pointed out, C.S. Lewis wrote fantasy that the Christian world is ga-ga over.
I'm not suggesting that this discussion should stop, but I will say it would have been a short one if everyone just respected each other's opposing opinions and said, "Hey, we disagree. Won't be the first time!"
Oh, and by the way, WhiteDove, I'm still very much a Christian, and many of the pro-Harry posters in this thread are, too, so don't think that only those who have "forsaken the faith" are "soft" on Harry Potter or persecuting you, the lone Christian in this thread. I understand your concern. I just think it's misplaced.
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