Actually they did not have any real specifics, or a revelation coming from their pipeline to hell, as to what "da master" (theirs) had in store for me.
But they sure did for others. And usually it was an afterthought. "See? That's why they got so sick, they forsook da truth, and Satan had at them coming and going".
Can't leave good ole "Mrs" Loy out of this either. She castigated the Po**ings for the death of their daughter.
The point? For me, the fear of da debil was left as bland and as generic as possible, but assurances that SOMETHING would happen if I turned the wrong way on the path was made and implied in some pretty certain terms.
Good, but what is some of the phrasing they actually used, rther than putting it into different words? What did they say?
(Excellent link, by the way.)
I know that they wouldn't predict a car accident or an illness, but they WOULD and DID predict that the Adversary would hurt them somehow. It was what you might call "spiritual speculation," an educated guess.
OK.. a little more specific. "If I left the ministry, I would be better off dead" was spoken during an "inspirational" weekly teaching.
And the crowd just sat there and agreed.. ptooie.
Another specific: "If you leave, you will go back to what you came from like a dog returning to its vomit"- it may be debatable whether said person would return to a worse condition- but that's not the point here.
Exact quote.
I think it was a fairly common belief that before involvement with Der Vey, our lives were going to hell in a handbasket. Even if the reality of the situation was very different.
It's ironic that one of the crash victims mentioned in the link was a hard-nosed Martindale wannabe through most of his post graduation Corps assignments (although I hear from some who knew him that he was a great guy before going in) and spoke of many who left TWI or suffered illness or misfortune in EXACTLY the same manner that Martindale spoke of him.
This man helped to wreck several marriages, and ruled with an iron fist. He emulated Martindale and would have done ANYTHING that he asked. He and his wife were SO waybrained that his wife, upon hearing of her husband's death by a State Trooper, reportedly WITNESSED to him.
Martindale did whatever necessary to cover his own foot, and explain his so-called revelations, even to someone as blindly loyal, and rabidly "confronting" of "weakness" as this man.
I'm looking for direct references to the Adversary though. I think we all heard the Adversary mentioned once or twice while in TWI. Once or twice a minute, some days.
So, what specific comments, explicit or implicit, were made to us regarding a "cop out" as fodder for "the Adversary?" That includes devil spirits, spiritual oppression, possession, repossession, influence, etc.
That's the question.
I began to look through some of our documents but they aren't searchable and I didn't have the time to read or re-read them all.
oh man, a "cop-out" is bad news. They are the "lowest of the low". They have been taught the truth, and "willingly turned their backs to God and the household of God." Most cop-outs operate big time devil spirits, mostly coming out of the spritely and devious group, stately and powerful, and some animalistic and vicious thrown in. Their salt has lost its savor, and are worth nothing more than to be trodden under.
Well, Craig talked a lot about "turning people over to satan". People who "left the household and therefore the spiritual competition."
He talked about the devil being the one to prosper them when they left the household, so that their lives were cursed.
Let me think on it. I know there's more.
Bob Moneyhands told my ex that his dad was either possessed with major devil spirits or at the least being heavily influenced by them. That's when he suggested that he cut all ties with his family.
I believe in the theory that when a liar points a finger, then three others are pointing back at himself. People like Wierwille & Martindale & Rivenbark (and their stooges, like John Linder) are not only liars but malicious deceivers.
If such a person "has no truth," then he must get the ideas about "demonic activity" from somewhere. I believe he simply looks within.
Now, I don't really know if devil spirits exist as we've been led to imagine or believe in them. But the nature of any spirit "identified" or "discerned" by one of these phonies is (conveniently) descriptive of the accuser's own character. Therefore, that which they have so often accused others is the best reflection of their worm-eaten hearts.
I'm quite serious when I say that Linder, and the rest, sleep with Satan. But we acknowledge it is symbolic of a religious corruption as old as humanity which we may only ever begin to understand.
It goes far beyond TWI of course. As Dan & Groucho have pointed out, these people are pathetic and insignificant in the greater scheme of things, but we have our memories, and they need to be placed in the proper context if we are to ever "move on."
There are scriptural references for this stuff. I'll leave them to you to find, if you need them.
Anyone remember the term "flipped out grad"? Maybe it was just a Northern California term, but it predated "copouts".
Flipped out grads had taken at least PFAL and were not actively standing with a twig. They generally were not accused of being possessed, but were to be handled differently than upstanding twig members. Anyone remember any more details?
Bob Moneyhands told my ex that his dad was either possessed with major devil spirits or at the least being heavily influenced by them. That's when he suggested that he cut all ties with his family.
I guess 'honor your parents' wasn't in that guys bible. It amazes me for all the (gag me) research that those people claim to do that they have a very hard time reading and comprehending even the simplest of things.
I think Satori is about right, many of these people manufacture devils out of their own internal darkness and deep self delusion when it is combined with the hodgepodge-kmart brand cheeseball-made in china theology of TWI.
In their twistedness they in ways do bring them into the world, encasing those who actually are naive enough to believe them in layers of fear and anxiety.
These people are no more genuine 'ministers of god' than I am a flying monkey. It is sort of a joke to me now, looking back at my youthful foolishness, that I ever took any of these people seriously, but looking back on it the pain and anguish they ministered actually far outweighed any 'blessings'.
They spoke more of fear than any group I have ever encountered and were deeply entrenched in absolutely bizarre superstitions that could only be birthed in deranged and sick minds.
The sick minds have got to be a product of the theology that refuses to recognize and deal with internal shortcomings and allows them to fester and develop long enough to become real 'devils'...
Its a twisted mess, and I for one am glad Im out of that hellhole and that the hellhole is out of me...after being subjected to it-it takes awhile to unravel it
Anyone remember the term "flipped out grad"? Maybe it was just a Northern California term, but it predated "copouts".
I remember the "flip out" phrase. It had more to do with their state of mind than the state of their commitment to The Way. The sub-text was, "maybe we're better off without them."
A cop out was an "error of heart." (Remember that?) To flip out was an "error of judgement." Just my recollection, anyway.
What a rich vocabulary The Way gave us.
I think you could cop out, and then flip out because you'd copped out. But it was less likely you could flip out first, and then cop out. This is because copping out required a conscious choice, I think, and if you were already "flipped out," your brain wasn't competent to cop out. You were in the "spiritual ozone." (We were nothing if not glib about those spiritual things, of which we knew next to nothing, and presumed we knew next to everything.)
Either way the "Adversary" was involved. How did the Adversary deal with cop-outs as opposed to flip-outs? Anybody know?
These people are no more genuine 'ministers of god' than I am a flying monkey. It is sort of a joke to me now, looking back at my youthful foolishness, that I ever took any of these people seriously, but looking back on it the pain and anguish they ministered actually far outweighed any 'blessings'.
Its a twisted mess, and I for one am glad Im out of that hellhole and that the hellhole is out of me...after being subjected to it-it takes awhile to unravel it
I remember being "taught" that the more "Word" you learned, the more you were therefore responsible for, and the more consequences you would reap if you "copped-out." In other words, the "bigger" you were ("spiritually"), the harder you'd fall.
According to their own calculations, Martindale should have imploded and burst into flames when he "copped out" and fell to the earth where we mortals walk.
By the way, is Martindale still considered faithful in his compromised situation, or is he now a certifiably tripped-out believer? He's marked and avoided, for all intents and purposes. Persona non grata. Right?
Any Loy sightings at Wayworld? He'd probably scurry in under cover of night, in a vehicle with tinted windows, possibly disguised, possibly as a large woman, or a small bigfoot.
He brought shame upon the ministry, as his predecessor Vic Wierwille should have also done, had he been exposed in time, and properly sued. Does that connote some degree of spiritual cohabitation? I would think TWI would redound with a resounding affirmative.
If so, what of the top dog sleazoids at Wayworld who persecute Loy's victims rather than making amends. I'd think we'd have heard, if they were doing the right thing. Don't you? You know who you are.
By the way, is Martindale still considered faithful in his compromised situation, or is he now a certifiably tripped-out believer? He's marked and avoided, for all intents and purposes. Persona non grata. Right?
This is what SOME of the leadership will tell you, others still say it's none of your d@m# business. At least up till a year ago. They were also careful to note those people asking questions about lcm, donna and particularly topics discussed on GSpot. Heaven protect the innocent TWIt who just coincidentally asks questions on the same topics we're discussing here!
I know this one all too well, Jim. My ex would quote it to me every time I disagreed with something TWI taught or some other stupid legalistic rule thrust upon us.
quote:
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.
If it sounded wrong, it's because The Way taught it to mean, "If you rebel against us, then you may as well be practicing witchcraft."
1 Sam 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
So even if we were stubborn, we were pretty much in the "greasespot by midnight" category, courtesy of the Adversary, as Martindale would teach it. If we rejected The Way, we rejected the LORD too. It was a convenient little doctrine for the spandex spitfire, wasn't it?
This link has an interesting study on the verse. I'm not a "researcher" any more, but some of you may enjoy it. He's essentially saying if you're "operating" believing, etc, then you are practicing witchcraft.
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Ham
Actually they did not have any real specifics, or a revelation coming from their pipeline to hell, as to what "da master" (theirs) had in store for me.
But they sure did for others. And usually it was an afterthought. "See? That's why they got so sick, they forsook da truth, and Satan had at them coming and going".
Case in point: Loy's vile defamation of two loyal followers: Unbelievable Stupidity
Can't leave good ole "Mrs" Loy out of this either. She castigated the Po**ings for the death of their daughter.
The point? For me, the fear of da debil was left as bland and as generic as possible, but assurances that SOMETHING would happen if I turned the wrong way on the path was made and implied in some pretty certain terms.
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satori001
Good, but what is some of the phrasing they actually used, rther than putting it into different words? What did they say?
(Excellent link, by the way.)
I know that they wouldn't predict a car accident or an illness, but they WOULD and DID predict that the Adversary would hurt them somehow. It was what you might call "spiritual speculation," an educated guess.
You would "open the door," etc.
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Ham
OK.. a little more specific. "If I left the ministry, I would be better off dead" was spoken during an "inspirational" weekly teaching.
And the crowd just sat there and agreed.. ptooie.
Another specific: "If you leave, you will go back to what you came from like a dog returning to its vomit"- it may be debatable whether said person would return to a worse condition- but that's not the point here.
Exact quote.
I think it was a fairly common belief that before involvement with Der Vey, our lives were going to hell in a handbasket. Even if the reality of the situation was very different.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
mr. Ham
thanks for sharing that martindale thing.
what a sick mo******* er he was and i am sure is
damn my heart bleeds for those reputations he ruined{and thier famlies}
i didn't know them
it was after my time
thanks again for the insight. but he didn't ruin them in the eyes of those who know.
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Oakspear
It's ironic that one of the crash victims mentioned in the link was a hard-nosed Martindale wannabe through most of his post graduation Corps assignments (although I hear from some who knew him that he was a great guy before going in) and spoke of many who left TWI or suffered illness or misfortune in EXACTLY the same manner that Martindale spoke of him.
This man helped to wreck several marriages, and ruled with an iron fist. He emulated Martindale and would have done ANYTHING that he asked. He and his wife were SO waybrained that his wife, upon hearing of her husband's death by a State Trooper, reportedly WITNESSED to him.
Martindale did whatever necessary to cover his own foot, and explain his so-called revelations, even to someone as blindly loyal, and rabidly "confronting" of "weakness" as this man.
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satori001
Interesting stuff, all of it.
I'm looking for direct references to the Adversary though. I think we all heard the Adversary mentioned once or twice while in TWI. Once or twice a minute, some days.
So, what specific comments, explicit or implicit, were made to us regarding a "cop out" as fodder for "the Adversary?" That includes devil spirits, spiritual oppression, possession, repossession, influence, etc.
That's the question.
I began to look through some of our documents but they aren't searchable and I didn't have the time to read or re-read them all.
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Thelema
oh man, a "cop-out" is bad news. They are the "lowest of the low". They have been taught the truth, and "willingly turned their backs to God and the household of God." Most cop-outs operate big time devil spirits, mostly coming out of the spritely and devious group, stately and powerful, and some animalistic and vicious thrown in. Their salt has lost its savor, and are worth nothing more than to be trodden under.
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Belle
Well, Craig talked a lot about "turning people over to satan". People who "left the household and therefore the spiritual competition."
He talked about the devil being the one to prosper them when they left the household, so that their lives were cursed.
Let me think on it. I know there's more.
Bob Moneyhands told my ex that his dad was either possessed with major devil spirits or at the least being heavily influenced by them. That's when he suggested that he cut all ties with his family.
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satori001
Excellent Thelema & Belle.
I believe in the theory that when a liar points a finger, then three others are pointing back at himself. People like Wierwille & Martindale & Rivenbark (and their stooges, like John Linder) are not only liars but malicious deceivers.
If such a person "has no truth," then he must get the ideas about "demonic activity" from somewhere. I believe he simply looks within.
Now, I don't really know if devil spirits exist as we've been led to imagine or believe in them. But the nature of any spirit "identified" or "discerned" by one of these phonies is (conveniently) descriptive of the accuser's own character. Therefore, that which they have so often accused others is the best reflection of their worm-eaten hearts.
I'm quite serious when I say that Linder, and the rest, sleep with Satan. But we acknowledge it is symbolic of a religious corruption as old as humanity which we may only ever begin to understand.
It goes far beyond TWI of course. As Dan & Groucho have pointed out, these people are pathetic and insignificant in the greater scheme of things, but we have our memories, and they need to be placed in the proper context if we are to ever "move on."
There are scriptural references for this stuff. I'll leave them to you to find, if you need them.
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Jim
Anyone remember the term "flipped out grad"? Maybe it was just a Northern California term, but it predated "copouts".
Flipped out grads had taken at least PFAL and were not actively standing with a twig. They generally were not accused of being possessed, but were to be handled differently than upstanding twig members. Anyone remember any more details?
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Abigail
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mstar1
I guess 'honor your parents' wasn't in that guys bible. It amazes me for all the (gag me) research that those people claim to do that they have a very hard time reading and comprehending even the simplest of things.
I think Satori is about right, many of these people manufacture devils out of their own internal darkness and deep self delusion when it is combined with the hodgepodge-kmart brand cheeseball-made in china theology of TWI.
In their twistedness they in ways do bring them into the world, encasing those who actually are naive enough to believe them in layers of fear and anxiety.
These people are no more genuine 'ministers of god' than I am a flying monkey. It is sort of a joke to me now, looking back at my youthful foolishness, that I ever took any of these people seriously, but looking back on it the pain and anguish they ministered actually far outweighed any 'blessings'.
They spoke more of fear than any group I have ever encountered and were deeply entrenched in absolutely bizarre superstitions that could only be birthed in deranged and sick minds.
The sick minds have got to be a product of the theology that refuses to recognize and deal with internal shortcomings and allows them to fester and develop long enough to become real 'devils'...
Its a twisted mess, and I for one am glad Im out of that hellhole and that the hellhole is out of me...after being subjected to it-it takes awhile to unravel it
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satori001
mstar, that was well put.
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Oakspear
; - )
|=0
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satori001
A cop out was an "error of heart." (Remember that?) To flip out was an "error of judgement." Just my recollection, anyway.
What a rich vocabulary The Way gave us.
I think you could cop out, and then flip out because you'd copped out. But it was less likely you could flip out first, and then cop out. This is because copping out required a conscious choice, I think, and if you were already "flipped out," your brain wasn't competent to cop out. You were in the "spiritual ozone." (We were nothing if not glib about those spiritual things, of which we knew next to nothing, and presumed we knew next to everything.)
Either way the "Adversary" was involved. How did the Adversary deal with cop-outs as opposed to flip-outs? Anybody know?
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satori001
Oakspear, please turn around slowly and step away from the Stratocaster.
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WeWereScammed
Brilliant.
I nominate this by mstar as POST OF THE DAY.
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WeWereScammed
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satori001
The longer you were in, the more you were taught to equate dissent with the devil.
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satori001
I remember being "taught" that the more "Word" you learned, the more you were therefore responsible for, and the more consequences you would reap if you "copped-out." In other words, the "bigger" you were ("spiritually"), the harder you'd fall.
According to their own calculations, Martindale should have imploded and burst into flames when he "copped out" and fell to the earth where we mortals walk.
By the way, is Martindale still considered faithful in his compromised situation, or is he now a certifiably tripped-out believer? He's marked and avoided, for all intents and purposes. Persona non grata. Right?
Any Loy sightings at Wayworld? He'd probably scurry in under cover of night, in a vehicle with tinted windows, possibly disguised, possibly as a large woman, or a small bigfoot.
He brought shame upon the ministry, as his predecessor Vic Wierwille should have also done, had he been exposed in time, and properly sued. Does that connote some degree of spiritual cohabitation? I would think TWI would redound with a resounding affirmative.
If so, what of the top dog sleazoids at Wayworld who persecute Loy's victims rather than making amends. I'd think we'd have heard, if they were doing the right thing. Don't you? You know who you are.
Just thinking out loud.
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Belle
This is what SOME of the leadership will tell you, others still say it's none of your d@m# business. At least up till a year ago. They were also careful to note those people asking questions about lcm, donna and particularly topics discussed on GSpot. Heaven protect the innocent TWIt who just coincidentally asks questions on the same topics we're discussing here!
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Jim
Does anyone remember some sort of word study that equated rebellion or rebelliousness and witchcraft?
That always sounded wrong to me....
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Belle
I know this one all too well, Jim. My ex would quote it to me every time I disagreed with something TWI taught or some other stupid legalistic rule thrust upon us.
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satori001
If it sounded wrong, it's because The Way taught it to mean, "If you rebel against us, then you may as well be practicing witchcraft."
1 Sam 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
So even if we were stubborn, we were pretty much in the "greasespot by midnight" category, courtesy of the Adversary, as Martindale would teach it. If we rejected The Way, we rejected the LORD too. It was a convenient little doctrine for the spandex spitfire, wasn't it?
This link has an interesting study on the verse. I'm not a "researcher" any more, but some of you may enjoy it. He's essentially saying if you're "operating" believing, etc, then you are practicing witchcraft.
Agree, disagree, have fun.
http://www.vandruff.com/witchcraft.html
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