Belle, that's pretty easy to explain. If God taught VPW the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century church, it could be in the available ways for VPW to learn. i.e., thru other people.
Oh. My. God.
You're ACTUALLY promulgating "the 1942 promise."
That's the thing where vpw claimed to be sitting in his office...
"And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would
teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to
others."
"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by
the next day where I said to myself- maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God
again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really
you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I really know, so that I can
believe.' The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful
early autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a
sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I opened them.
The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling station
on the corner not 75 feet away."
So, supposedly,
according to you, then,
God gave vpw a snowstorm-either actual or a vision.
Weather reports confirm there was no actual snowstorm.
Supposedly,
according to you, then,
God taught vpw God's Word like it had not been known since the First Century AD,
if vpw would teach it to others. vpw then taught it to others.
In the first century AD, there were no printing presses, What was known was the spoken
word and the Old Testament. There was no unified vision of things, as Acts clearly shows,
and as the Epistles show. (Why rebuke division if there is no division?)
So, "as it was known in the First Century" is a cute concept which is a convenient FICTION.
In the first century AD, Christians were on the run. They made sure other Christians were not
in financial straits, and spent time together where they could find it, eating together, etc.
Where they found a haven, they stayed and taught. (Like a short time at the School of
Tyrannus.) They were hardly an "organized" bunch, definitely not centralized. If they saw a
need in another city's Christians, someone passed the hat around, and they sent money.
Compare them to twi.
Everything centrally organized.
Everything centrally controlled.
Everything STANDARDIZED-everyone took the same classes.
All the money goes ONE WAY.
Permanent locations.
What the top leader says, goes-no questions.
Organized meetings.
Extensive study of Greek, but NO time for charity.
The first-century Christian church would never RECOGNIZE twi.
So, the idea that vpw's work in any way RESEMBLED the First-Century Christian church is a
pipe-dream.
Everything vpw taught was ALREADY being taught at the time he "learned" it. Supposedly,
GOD would teach him "like it hadn't been known since..." but it was ALREADY KNOWN!
So, THAT part was a fiction. vpw's "GOD" should have known better.
vpw learned all this from other people's works, not by studying the Bible himself, and NOT
from the utterance of God. So, the entire basis of this claim is false.
So, the supposed basis of authority of twi was the supposed vision that the supposed man
of God vpw claimed to receive. This vision was either completely made up by vpw, or was
received from a source OTHER than God, who would know better.
So, your own statement- that God taught him like nobody knew since the First Century
by way of other people- contains an internal contradiction.
If it was already known, the promise is a lie.
If it was NOT already known, then there would be NO other people to learn this from.
As it was, extensive evidence has shown that vpw read the works of other Christian writers,
then supposedly claimed he learned them from God and nobody knew them.
Sounds pretty convincing? Maybe I oughta make some money off of it..
So.. what about the poor saps that bought my treasure..
Five years later, they find out they could have gone to the stinking LIBRARY and gotten the same thing- without the commitment, without giving fifteen percent of their income, without all the stupidity. I'll tell you how I felt. "How could I have been such a FOOL???!!!"
Oldies, you were hoodwinked, fooled, taken advantage of, bamboozled- along with the rest of us that bought old doc vics recipe book.
You are the unwitting buyer of stolen property.
A lot of folks have had some rather embarrassing explaining to do to the cops for this kind of thing..
It may sit well with you, it does not sit well with me.
Belle, that's pretty easy to explain. If God taught VPW the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century church, it could be in the available ways for VPW to learn. i.e., thru other people.
Had VPW given proper written acknowledgement to other mens ideas in his books, would that act have negated his claim? I trow not.
Actually,
it contradicts his claim.
Had vpw been prepared to give proper written acknowledgement to other mens' ideas AND
WRITINGS in his books, he would have been HONEST, thus obeying the laws of the US,
showing proper respect to other men of God, and shown respect to his audience by telling
them the truth in a truthful way.
HOWEVER,
if he HAD done so, he would NOT have been able to say
"only God and I knew all this because I'm special".
He would have been able to put for that he was A teacher,
So if vee pee made his claim about throwing out all the books in the middle of the PFAL, then he was essentially leading us to believe that all of PFAL came from his widdle head, the Bible and God, wasn't he?
Well, there is conflicting information about this. I don't have all the answers to this. VPW could have done a lot of the research on his own, which could have been the same research someone else did, years before. That's not impossible to imagine. Then again, we do have evidence of all the men of God he learned from who were scattered across the continent. No question he learned from these men.
"THERE IS CONFLICTING INFORMATION ON THIS?"
On what planet?
vpw meets JE Stiles.
vpw buys JE Stiles' books.
vpw "writes" a book that uses IDENTICAL PHRASEOLOGY as Stiles' book-even when Stiles'
vocabulary diverges RADICALLY from that of vpw's-using Stiles' ideas and his actual words.
vpw is told about EW Bullinger's books.
vpw buys every book Bullinger ever wrote.
vpw "writes" books that contain entire chapters and subjects straight from Bullinger's books.
vpw takes Leonard's class.
vpw then goes out and teaches "his" class that contains a compilation of Leonard's
class, Bullinger's book and Stiles' book.
There is nothing that can argue AGAINST this.
It's not impossible to "IMAGINE" all sorts of things-like God giving him the books by
dictation or Jesus teaching from the Orange Book. However, even you admit that it is
irrefutable he learned from those men.
What possible reason could we have that he learned from those men
(they were "scattered across the continent?" They were together and something split them
apart?)
THEN to go out and learn this for the first time from God?
The only CONFLICTING INFORMATION is a desire to claim there were things he did NOT learn
Also, we learned in 1972 that lots of VPW's stuff was not original, as was stated in "The Way Living in Love". Somehow it seems other folks didn't realize that he got lots of his stuff from other men, but I got that idea early on and it really doesn't surprise me that he got ooodles of stuff from other men. But then Wierwille said "putting it all together so that it fit -- that was the original work."
And so he's correct there. Far as I can tell, he didn't steal TWI from anyone. He founded it, put it together and made it work in his time.
As that book has it, he learned a little bit from THIS man and a little from THAT
man,
THEN he went and studied out the subjects from the Bible,
THEN he assembled his pfal classes.
"Putting it all together so that it fit" was NOT the original work.
They ALREADY fit. All he did was assemble them together.
That's hardly considered "originality".
That's taking Leonard's class, adding Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible"
and Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" and calling it an original work.
Furthermore, he NEVER gave proper attribution.
twi was the result of ripping off a number of Christians,
organizing it into an organization that concentrated authority at the top,
then merchandizing it brilliantly.
Any good car-salesman could have managed the same if he got a grounding in the right
Christian sources.
quote:
All this doesn't mean he didn't plagiarize, I understand that. What I'm saying is, even had he given proper written acknowledgement, it wouldn't have changed my direction or commitment.
It wouldn't change YOURS. Great.
It would have affected a lot of people who were-and are STILL being told-
that the SOLE SOURCE of accurate knowledge of God is twi-
and NOT that Christians in other places know much of ANYTHING.
Thank you WW, you took the words right out of my fingers, especially:
quote:
So, your own statement- that God taught him like nobody knew since the First Century
by way of other people- contains an internal contradiction.
If it was already known, the promise is a lie.
If it was NOT already known, then there would be NO other people to learn this from.
As it was, extensive evidence has shown that vpw read the works of other Christian writers,
then supposedly claimed he learned them from God and nobody knew them.
Hey, Ham, I'd buy your work just because I like you. I wouldn't ask for any of my money back and I'd defend you like, well, like nobody else if they were to attack you, call you a liar and a thief.
It would have affected a lot of people who were-and are STILL being told-that the SOLE SOURCE of accurate knowledge of God is twi-and NOT that Christians in other places know much of ANYTHING.
Sorry Belle, I disagree.
VPW learned from men of God scattered across the continent. We were told that early on. So how in the world could you or others seriously make a claim that VPW was the sole source of accurate knowledge and other Christians don't know much of anything?
Actually, that's WW's quote, but I agree with him, so I'll bite:
vee pee he told us that. Even you said it.... he knew the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You're contradicting yourself all over the place, my friend.
Also, in TWI II we were constantly being told that those egg-sucking so-called Christians didn't know squat and that there wasn't anything better out there. We were told that if we left TWI, God's one true household, that we'd be a greasespot by midnight. That God wouldn't be able to protect us.
vee pee he told us that. Even you said it.... he knew the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You're contradicting yourself all over the place, my friend.
Friend Belle, being taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, and saying that VPW was the SOLE SOURCE of accuracy, are two very different things. Obviously, he wasn't the sole source. I think you are drawing conclusions that you shouldn't.
As far as what LCM stated in your time, most of us who are out know full well that LCM stated many harmful and vicious and erroneous things that none of us who are gone support.
Are we all gonna be arrested for receiving stolen property?
Heh heh.
Actually, with intellectual property, I think that outlines the problem. You can't exactly give it back to the original owner, so to speak. You read it, used it.. can't readily "undo" its effect.
And the owner has no recourse, at least that I am aware of, with regards to the unwitting buyers.
Plus the buyers.. are they going to go rush to the local bookstore and purchase the original seller's product? "I Trow Not.."
I think that is why plagiarism is so insidious.
The sellers ultimately bear practically the full brunt of responsability.
Still- it is stolen property, and I think comparison to physical theft is in order here.
"But officer, its the BEST watch I've ever had, and it was ONLY twenty-five bucks.."
The sucker would laugh his rear off as he handcuffed you..
Plus the buyers.. are they going to go rush to the local bookstore and purchase the original seller's product? "I Trow Not.."
Go to now, Mr. Hammeroni.
Don't ya think that lots of folks who enjoy Wierwille's books might go out and buy the works of Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, et al.? See it in the "original"? Heck I would.
vee pee he told us that. Even you said it.... he knew the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You're contradicting yourself all over the place, my friend.
Friend Belle, being taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, and saying that VPW was the SOLE SOURCE of accuracy, are two very different things. Obviously, he wasn't the sole source. I think you are drawing conclusions that you shouldn't.
"Obviously he wasn't the sole source."
Obviously you've forgotten what vpw said about other Christians all the time,
calling their seminary "cemetaries" and so on.
He didn't "mellow out" on that over time, either.
Here's what vpw himself said in May 12, 1985....
(not long before he died)
"Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers.
If we knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em!"
Plus the buyers.. are they going to go rush to the local bookstore and purchase the original seller's product? "I Trow Not.."
Go to now, Mr. Hammeroni.
Don't ya think that lots of folks who enjoy Wierwille's books might go out and buy the works of Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, et al.? See it in the "original"? Heck I would.
We've been discussing this for most of a decade.
Oldiesman?
Would you really?
Then, answer these simple questions...
Do you currently own a copy of JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit"?
How many books of Leonard and Kenyon do you own?
How many of Bullinger's books do you own outside of "the Companion Bible" and
"How to Enjoy the Bible"? For that matter, do you own THOSE books?
Don't ya think that lots of folks who enjoy Wierwille's books might go out and buy the works of Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, et al.?
Leonard, no. I've been there, done that..
Stiles- no. Same reason- I spoke in tongues..
No more classes.. no more two weeks off somewhere..
Had I known, they may have gotten my business the first time around.
Come to think of it, that IS what I bought, the first time around. Stiles works, B.G.'s class, Bullinger's research.. too bad B.G. didn't get any dough out of it..
I hear he was a really good guy. Wish I could have met him..
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WordWolf
It was part of the whole package. We were sold the whole package. That package was of a religious organization that was unique in that its authority and teaching were solely from the Bible, and wh
Raf
Take a chill pill!
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oldiesman
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WordWolf
Oh. My. God.
You're ACTUALLY promulgating "the 1942 promise."
That's the thing where vpw claimed to be sitting in his office...
"And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would
teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to
others."
"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by
the next day where I said to myself- maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God
again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really
you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I really know, so that I can
believe.' The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful
early autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a
sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I opened them.
The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling station
on the corner not 75 feet away."
So, supposedly,
according to you, then,
God gave vpw a snowstorm-either actual or a vision.
Weather reports confirm there was no actual snowstorm.
Supposedly,
according to you, then,
God taught vpw God's Word like it had not been known since the First Century AD,
if vpw would teach it to others. vpw then taught it to others.
In the first century AD, there were no printing presses, What was known was the spoken
word and the Old Testament. There was no unified vision of things, as Acts clearly shows,
and as the Epistles show. (Why rebuke division if there is no division?)
So, "as it was known in the First Century" is a cute concept which is a convenient FICTION.
In the first century AD, Christians were on the run. They made sure other Christians were not
in financial straits, and spent time together where they could find it, eating together, etc.
Where they found a haven, they stayed and taught. (Like a short time at the School of
Tyrannus.) They were hardly an "organized" bunch, definitely not centralized. If they saw a
need in another city's Christians, someone passed the hat around, and they sent money.
Compare them to twi.
Everything centrally organized.
Everything centrally controlled.
Everything STANDARDIZED-everyone took the same classes.
All the money goes ONE WAY.
Permanent locations.
What the top leader says, goes-no questions.
Organized meetings.
Extensive study of Greek, but NO time for charity.
The first-century Christian church would never RECOGNIZE twi.
So, the idea that vpw's work in any way RESEMBLED the First-Century Christian church is a
pipe-dream.
Everything vpw taught was ALREADY being taught at the time he "learned" it. Supposedly,
GOD would teach him "like it hadn't been known since..." but it was ALREADY KNOWN!
So, THAT part was a fiction. vpw's "GOD" should have known better.
vpw learned all this from other people's works, not by studying the Bible himself, and NOT
from the utterance of God. So, the entire basis of this claim is false.
So, the supposed basis of authority of twi was the supposed vision that the supposed man
of God vpw claimed to receive. This vision was either completely made up by vpw, or was
received from a source OTHER than God, who would know better.
So, your own statement- that God taught him like nobody knew since the First Century
by way of other people- contains an internal contradiction.
If it was already known, the promise is a lie.
If it was NOT already known, then there would be NO other people to learn this from.
As it was, extensive evidence has shown that vpw read the works of other Christian writers,
then supposedly claimed he learned them from God and nobody knew them.
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Ham
So.. what about the poor saps that bought my treasure..
Five years later, they find out they could have gone to the stinking LIBRARY and gotten the same thing- without the commitment, without giving fifteen percent of their income, without all the stupidity. I'll tell you how I felt. "How could I have been such a FOOL???!!!"
Oldies, you were hoodwinked, fooled, taken advantage of, bamboozled- along with the rest of us that bought old doc vics recipe book.
You are the unwitting buyer of stolen property.
A lot of folks have had some rather embarrassing explaining to do to the cops for this kind of thing..
It may sit well with you, it does not sit well with me.
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WordWolf
Actually,
it contradicts his claim.
Had vpw been prepared to give proper written acknowledgement to other mens' ideas AND
WRITINGS in his books, he would have been HONEST, thus obeying the laws of the US,
showing proper respect to other men of God, and shown respect to his audience by telling
them the truth in a truthful way.
HOWEVER,
if he HAD done so, he would NOT have been able to say
"only God and I knew all this because I'm special".
He would have been able to put for that he was A teacher,
but not that he was THE TEACHER.
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Tom Strange
Oldiesman: this is for you...
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Ham
"Come here, boy, I have a couple watches I can sell you, cheap.."
In this state, if you get caught with stolen stuff, at the very least, you will find yourself giving it BACK.
Doesn't make any difference if you didn't know..
or if you claimed that it is the same as if you bought it at the store..
Tell the cops it doesn't make any difference WHERE it came from. Or the Judge..
If you're forty years old, and still are buying Rolexes in the street for twenty-five bucks, they ASSUME you KNOW its stolen.
Can't blame us when we were "Y and D".. but come on. Forty some years old, gotta know something by now..
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Ham
Hey Tom! That looks pretty neat. Say, you have a couple more? I could use one..
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WordWolf
"THERE IS CONFLICTING INFORMATION ON THIS?"
On what planet?
vpw meets JE Stiles.
vpw buys JE Stiles' books.
vpw "writes" a book that uses IDENTICAL PHRASEOLOGY as Stiles' book-even when Stiles'
vocabulary diverges RADICALLY from that of vpw's-using Stiles' ideas and his actual words.
vpw is told about EW Bullinger's books.
vpw buys every book Bullinger ever wrote.
vpw "writes" books that contain entire chapters and subjects straight from Bullinger's books.
vpw takes Leonard's class.
vpw then goes out and teaches "his" class that contains a compilation of Leonard's
class, Bullinger's book and Stiles' book.
There is nothing that can argue AGAINST this.
It's not impossible to "IMAGINE" all sorts of things-like God giving him the books by
dictation or Jesus teaching from the Orange Book. However, even you admit that it is
irrefutable he learned from those men.
What possible reason could we have that he learned from those men
(they were "scattered across the continent?" They were together and something split them
apart?)
THEN to go out and learn this for the first time from God?
The only CONFLICTING INFORMATION is a desire to claim there were things he did NOT learn
from the original writers.
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WordWolf
As that book has it, he learned a little bit from THIS man and a little from THAT
man,
THEN he went and studied out the subjects from the Bible,
THEN he assembled his pfal classes.
"Putting it all together so that it fit" was NOT the original work.
They ALREADY fit. All he did was assemble them together.
That's hardly considered "originality".
That's taking Leonard's class, adding Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible"
and Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" and calling it an original work.
Furthermore, he NEVER gave proper attribution.
twi was the result of ripping off a number of Christians,
organizing it into an organization that concentrated authority at the top,
then merchandizing it brilliantly.
Any good car-salesman could have managed the same if he got a grounding in the right
Christian sources.
It wouldn't change YOURS. Great.
It would have affected a lot of people who were-and are STILL being told-
that the SOLE SOURCE of accurate knowledge of God is twi-
and NOT that Christians in other places know much of ANYTHING.
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Belle
Thank you WW, you took the words right out of my fingers, especially:
Hey, Ham, I'd buy your work just because I like you. I wouldn't ask for any of my money back and I'd defend you like, well, like nobody else if they were to attack you, call you a liar and a thief.
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Belle
Are we all gonna be arrested for receiving stolen property?
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Belle
oh, and....
WELCOME jkboehme!!!
I'm sure Raf will be by with the coffee, but could I buy you a danish?
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oldiesman
VPW learned from men of God scattered across the continent. We were told that early on. So how in the world could you or others seriously make a claim that VPW was the sole source of accurate knowledge and other Christians don't know much of anything?
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Belle
Actually, that's WW's quote, but I agree with him, so I'll bite:
vee pee he told us that. Even you said it.... he knew the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You're contradicting yourself all over the place, my friend.
Also, in TWI II we were constantly being told that those egg-sucking so-called Christians didn't know squat and that there wasn't anything better out there. We were told that if we left TWI, God's one true household, that we'd be a greasespot by midnight. That God wouldn't be able to protect us.
Call me stupid, but I actually believed them.
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Tom Strange
hehe, WW said "...Jesus teaching from the Orange Book"... hehe...
Here's that picture of "Da Nile" for you again Oldiesman:
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oldiesman
As far as what LCM stated in your time, most of us who are out know full well that LCM stated many harmful and vicious and erroneous things that none of us who are gone support.
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Ham
Heh heh.
Actually, with intellectual property, I think that outlines the problem. You can't exactly give it back to the original owner, so to speak. You read it, used it.. can't readily "undo" its effect.
And the owner has no recourse, at least that I am aware of, with regards to the unwitting buyers.
Plus the buyers.. are they going to go rush to the local bookstore and purchase the original seller's product? "I Trow Not.."
I think that is why plagiarism is so insidious.
The sellers ultimately bear practically the full brunt of responsability.
Still- it is stolen property, and I think comparison to physical theft is in order here.
"But officer, its the BEST watch I've ever had, and it was ONLY twenty-five bucks.."
The sucker would laugh his rear off as he handcuffed you..
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oldiesman
Don't ya think that lots of folks who enjoy Wierwille's books might go out and buy the works of Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, et al.? See it in the "original"? Heck I would.
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WordWolf
"Obviously he wasn't the sole source."
Obviously you've forgotten what vpw said about other Christians all the time,
calling their seminary "cemetaries" and so on.
He didn't "mellow out" on that over time, either.
Here's what vpw himself said in May 12, 1985....
(not long before he died)
"Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers.
If we knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em!"
How's that selective memory working for you?
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WordWolf
Less than you'd think-he plagiarized the 1942 promise!
BG Leonard:
Add "an early October invisible snowstorm", and inflate it to "like it hasn't been
known" and you have the 1942 promise.
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jkboehme
_____________________________________________
Thanks, Belle, the danish sounds great!!
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WordWolf
We've been discussing this for most of a decade.
Oldiesman?
Would you really?
Then, answer these simple questions...
Do you currently own a copy of JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit"?
How many books of Leonard and Kenyon do you own?
How many of Bullinger's books do you own outside of "the Companion Bible" and
"How to Enjoy the Bible"? For that matter, do you own THOSE books?
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Ham
Leonard, no. I've been there, done that..
Stiles- no. Same reason- I spoke in tongues..
No more classes.. no more two weeks off somewhere..
Had I known, they may have gotten my business the first time around.
Come to think of it, that IS what I bought, the first time around. Stiles works, B.G.'s class, Bullinger's research.. too bad B.G. didn't get any dough out of it..
I hear he was a really good guy. Wish I could have met him..
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