I thought the Harry/Ginny thing was near perfect. It's a perfect "she's too young for me--- a whole year!" turned into "what's a year, really?" And that's a natural process in the teen years.
No one has said anything for a while...please don't let this thread die! Talking to adults is so much more fulfilling than talking to teenagers. All they can talk about is how mad/glad they are about Ron and Hermione.
I still need to know what everyone thinks about the Snape issue.
I thought the other horcrux was something of either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw.
If Harry's scar is indeed a horcrux, it must be the eighth. By the time Voldemort got to Harry's parents, he was already at the height of his powers and probably had already created his seven horcruxes. Whatever he gave to Harry would not have been intentional. And when Voldemort tried to possess Harry in the fifth book, he couldn't.
Although...now that I think about it, it would make a lot of sense. Still, what of Gryffindor or Ravenclaw's object?
Harry's scar would be fitting and would also fit into the horcrux being in the Gryffindor house, as HARRY is in the the Gryffindor house. It's been hinted at and even Dd said that there was a link between Harry and V'mort thru that scar. But I was under the impression that Dd didn't fully understand how the link exactly worked OR didn't want to really discuss it with Harry at that time. Remember - Dd withheld the truth from Harry about his prophsey.
Also - Wordwolf - there's another way that Snape could have communicated - through the paintings. Remember, there was a painting of a headmaster, who was a relative of Sirius, hanging in the headmaster's office. There was also another painting at Grimmold (sp?) Place - that former headmaster and relative of Sirius could have easily been the one who tipped off the Order with a message from Snape in Hogwarts.
I thought the other horcrux was something of either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw.
If Harry's scar is indeed a horcrux, it must be the eighth. By the time Voldemort got to Harry's parents, he was already at the height of his powers and probably had already created his seven horcruxes. Whatever he gave to Harry would not have been intentional. And when Voldemort tried to possess Harry in the fifth book, he couldn't.
Although...now that I think about it, it would make a lot of sense. Still, what of Gryffindor or Ravenclaw's object?
Book 6, page-506.
"However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least
one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house
with the intention of killing you.
He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcuxes for particularly
significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that
in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy had outlined.
He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was
intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.
As we know, he failed."
I agree with everything Dumbledore said except the last sentence.
Voldy actually SUCCEEDED in making the Horcrux (but failed to kill
Harry.) It requires a death to power it, and either Lily's death or
Voldy's OWN death qualified to set it up.
By making the Riddle diary a Horcrux, Voldemort gave it part of his
own personality and power. By making Harry's scar a Horcrux, Voldy gave
him part of his own personality and power:
A) Harry became a parselmouth
B) Harry was a natural for Slytherin in the Sorting
C) Trelawney guessed he was born in midwinter-
was she completely full of it, or was RIDDLE born in midwinter?
Harry was born at the end of July (same day as JK Rowling.)
D) Dumbledore himself noted the similarities at the end of Book 2.
E) Book 2, the first time Harry hears the name Tom Riddle,
he RECOGNIZES IT,
but can't place it.
Voldy stopped using that name years ago, but Harry seems to recognize
it as if it was someone's name he heard years ago.
===
What of Gryffindor's object?
That was HARRY.
His parents lived in Godric's Hollow (as in Godric Gryffindor).
JKR herself was SURPRISED one editor never drew a connection between the
name of the village and the name of the Hogwarts Founder.
Harry drew Godric Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat.
"Only a True Gryffindor" could have done that.
Besides, the only known relic of Godric Gryffindor IS that sword.
(Book 6, p-505).
"I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains
safe.
Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a
ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case."
=====
Further, Voldy had no plans to make 7 or more Horcruxes. He was planning
on splitting his soul 7 ways. He has to retain at least 1 of the 7.
This means he could make a maximum of 6 Horcruxes. That's why a list of
7 includes Voldy himself, although he is not actually a Horcrux.
And, of course whatever he passed Harry wasn't intentional-
at least, he didn't go there intending to make Harry a Horcrux.
He went there intending to use Harry's death to power up a Horcrux he
entered the house carrying. The explosion probably obliterated the
item he had in mind. So, the scar's power was almost reflexive-
Voldy was casting out part of his soul, and it reached Harry rather
Also - Wordwolf - there's another way that Snape could have communicated - through the paintings. Remember, there was a painting of a headmaster, who was a relative of Sirius, hanging in the headmaster's office. There was also another painting at 12 Grimmauld Place - that former headmaster and relative of Sirius could have easily been the one who tipped off the Order with a message from Snape in Hogwarts.
There's a problem with that.
Dumbledore's office sealed itself off from outside entry once Dumbledore
left in Book 5. Thus, nobody could have communicated with Phineas
Nigellus' portrait there. (Although you had me there for a moment.)
The next person to enter the office was Harry, once Dumbledore made him
a Portkey to access the office. Dumbledore arrived minutes later.
When people first started suggesting that Harry's scar was a horcrux, I disagreed, but it's definitely starting to make a whole lot of sense.
Oh, and I didn't mean to say Harry's scar made an eighth horcrux -- I wasn't thinking.
Do you think, if Harry's scar is indeed the sixth horcrux, that Voldemort knows? If he didn't know, you'd think he'd go ahead and try to make another one -- either that or forget about them completely in light of recent trauma (namely, almost dying).
I was only wondering because Dumbledore said he doubted Voldemort knew when the other horcruxes were being destroyed. However, if he knew about Harry's scar being a horcrux, he would probably still be highly aware of it. Although Dumbledore did say that it was unlikely Voldemort knew that Harry could feel his scar prickling when Voldemort was feeling intense emotions...so I suppose I've answered my own question.
Wordwolf - you're forgetting that the people in the paintings can go into other's paintings - sort of pass through them. The Fat Lady did it when she was attacked - she went and hid. In one of the first books, The Fat Lady and Vi, a witch from another painting, were sharing some Christmas cheer together. In the 3rd book, a crazy knight gave the Golden Trio directions to Professor Tralawny's room when they had lost their way. Since some of the former Hogwart's headmasters could come and go from St. Mongo's or the Ministry of Magic offices, would think that they wouldn't have limits from Dd's office - I think it would be possible.
I mean, you could theoretically kill a person before you destroyed the horcruxes that contained other portions of that person's soul, right?
So Harry could destroy Voldemort and THEN destroy Hufflepuff's chalice or whatever...or would the portion of Voldemort's soul in Hufflepuff's chalice become a new Voldemort?
If the Riddle diary hadn't been destroyed and Ginny had in fact died, would there be two Voldemorts? Would the diary have joined up with the embodied Voldemort?
Also, if Harry's scar is a horcrux and Harry killed Voldemort, in what manner would Voldemort live on in Harry? Would a new Voldemort pop out of Harry's forehead for him to do battle with?
I really just don't understand.
In regard to the question about whether or not you can kill a person before you destroy the horcruxes, my logic is that it seems improbable to me that the Voldemort with the body could not be destroyed before the horcruxes.... If you imagine Voldemort himself as just a seventh horcrux, what would make this horcrux special? It's not logical unless it's the sort of deal where all the horcruxes must be destroyed in the order in which they were made, so to speak, with their originator destroyed last. In that case the Riddle diary would come first...but what of the others? Do we even know the order in which they were made?
JKRowling has answered a couple of these questions in interviews.
If the diary had not been destroyed and the Riddle memory had taken corporeal form, it would have joined up with Voldy somehow, uniting with him and making him more powerful.
Voldemort can't be killed until all of his horcruxes are destroyed. Remember, he was a bodiless entity in HP&tSS? If someone was able to "kill" the current Voldy body, he would revert to that form until all of his horcruxes were destroyed, at which point (I think) he would die.
I don't think order matters, but that's just my opinion.
I mean, you could theoretically kill a person before you destroyed the horcruxes that contained other portions of that person's soul, right?
Right. This happened TWICE so far- Book 1, Chapter 1,at Godric's Hollow,
and again in Book 1 towards the end, at the Mirror of Erised.
quote:
So Harry could destroy Voldemort and THEN destroy Hufflepuff's chalice or whatever...or would the portion of Voldemort's soul in Hufflepuff's chalice become a new Voldemort?
No-that was a particular ability of the Riddle diary.
After Godric's Hollow, Voldy became non-physical, and "less than the meanest
ghost" (Voldy's description, Book 4, the cauldron scene.)
Voldy existed thru possession-of animals, and the back of Quirrel's head.
Thru a means as-yet not fully understood (I think it relates to the snake Nagini),
Voldy eventually grew a tiny homonculus-like body from that form-
which, I say, is a huge improvement over being completely dead.
I speculate he drew off biomass from something he inhabited (Nagini) to get that
body.
quote:
If the Riddle diary hadn't been destroyed and Ginny had in fact died, would there be two Voldemorts? Would the diary have joined up with the embodied Voldemort?
"..what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?"
"I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have
strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably."
==
We KNOW the result would have been a solid "Riddle" and an incorporeal "Voldy"
who was "less than the meanest ghost".
Then what?
It is my GUESS that the Voldy-ghostthing would have possessed the solid Riddle
and skipped the entire Book 4 experience. He would have the Book as an intact
horcrux, Hogwarts would have been closed, and Voldy would have been able to use
the Chamber of Secrets/ Hogwarts as a staging area, and used the magics native to
Hogwarts as resources. (According to Dumbledore in Book 6, Riddle applied-TWICE-
to be a teacher at Hogwarts to try to get access to its magics.
quote:
Also, if Harry's scar is a horcrux and Harry killed Voldemort, in what manner would Voldemort live on in Harry? Would a new Voldemort pop out of Harry's forehead for him to do battle with?
I really just don't understand.
To take the meanings of horcruxes strictly-and to judge by myths which JKR herself
drew from-
it is THAT a horcrux exists that is important. The normally do not DIRECTLY
contribute to the survival of the person in a physical, material way. They just
maintain part of their soul/essence so that the person can live on.
They are normally NOT meant to sustain a person past PHYSICAL destruction- just
normal causes of death-like disease, organ failure, "natural causes", even massive
damage (many organs destroyed because someone parked a truck on Voldy.)
Consider the movie vampire, who, although he's been STAKED, is still "alive" until
he's hit with sunlight. He can be chopped up and stuff, but someone can put the
pieces back together and remove the stake and there he goes again.
So, NORMALLY, a Horcrux sits in a remote location, left alone, and quietly does what
it's supposed to do.
So, if someone came along and exploded Voldy again ("Voldemort explodicus"),
then he'd go back to ghost-form and eventually return, either like he did with
Quirrel, or like he did at the beginning of Book 4.
quote:
In regard to the question about whether or not you can kill a person before you destroy the horcruxes, my logic is that it seems improbable to me that the Voldemort with the body could not be destroyed before the horcruxes.... If you imagine Voldemort himself as just a seventh horcrux, what would make this horcrux special? It's not logical unless it's the sort of deal where all the horcruxes must be destroyed in the order in which they were made, so to speak, with their originator destroyed last. In that case the Riddle diary would come first...but what of the others? Do we even know the order in which they were made?
So, if even ONE horcrux survived, and Voldy was exploded, he'd come back like he did
before. If Voldy was in ghosty-form, and the last horcrux was destroyed,
Voldy would be stuck. He MIGHT survive like a ghost, but more likely he'd have
nothing connecting him to the world. Then again, Voldy's scared of death, so he
MIGHT be stuck forever as a ghost, subject to their rules. I'd argue against it
because there's only 1/7 of him left TO become a ghost-I'd argue that's not enough
to retain an identity. (He might become a ghost with no personality, or the
ghost of Forrest Gump or something, if he made it to ghosthood.)
How does this relate to the unicorns blood he drank (can`t remember which book but Harry saw it when he was in the forest doing detention with Hagrid, Neville, and Malfoy) ?
Remember .... there was a big deal about slaying the pure and that it gave him some kind of life or immortality.
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Raf
I thought the Harry/Ginny thing was near perfect. It's a perfect "she's too young for me--- a whole year!" turned into "what's a year, really?" And that's a natural process in the teen years.
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padfoot806
No one has said anything for a while...please don't let this thread die! Talking to adults is so much more fulfilling than talking to teenagers. All they can talk about is how mad/glad they are about Ron and Hermione.
I still need to know what everyone thinks about the Snape issue.
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WordWolf
Since you asked, here's how I see it.
There are precisely 2 possibilities.
A) Snape is a Death Eater and pretending to work for the OotP as a spy on the DEs.
B) Snape is an OotP member and pretending to work for the DEs as a spy on the OotP.
=====
ALL evidence must fit both or one. All evidence fitting both must be DISCARDED
when looking for which one is correct. All evidence fitting BOTH are due to his
attempting to pretend to serve one side while actually serving the other.
====
In Book 5, Harry (caught by Umbridge and her Inquisitoria Squad) tells Snape
"He's got Padfoot in the place where it's hidden!"
Snape pretends Harry said nothing of consequence.
Then the OotP arrived at the Dept of Mysteries,
outracing the MoM there.
Only Harry-and anyone whom he told-knew about that.
That means everyone present when Harry told Sirius, and anyone he encountered after,
could have known. All members of the D.A. Club (Defense Association/Dumbledore's Army)
who knew proceeded to the Dept of Mysteries WITH Harry.
All standard communication available to students was being monitored.
(That's why Harry was CAUGHT trying to circumvent them in the first place.)
Therefore, the OotP was not notified by Floo or Owl Post.
Anyone travelling by broom would have been conspicuous AND probably taken too long.
Apparition was possible. HOWEVER, it was limited to:
A) "adults"-anyone old enough to take the classes
B) anyone OFF HOGWARTS GROUNDS.
Apparition is not possible on Hogwarts grounds for any wizard.
(House-elves use a different form and CAN go.)
So, an adult would have to travel to Hogsmeade, THEN Apparate.
Sending a house-elf would be limited to Dobby-who, so far, has ONLY been given
standing orders ONCE by Dumbledore, and specific orders from Harry. I also expect
Harry's instructions only apply so long as Dobby can still work for Dumbledore-
which suggests he can only "do stuff" on Hogwarts grounds. All of that means that
it is far to "iffy" for someone else to have used Dobby this time. Not impossible-
revisit this if all more likely possibilities are exhausted.
That allows for 2 more methods of communication.
A) mirrors like Harry and Sirius had.
No evidence exists that ANYONE else had a matched pair. Not impossible, but unlikely.
Again, only consider if more likely possibilities exist.
B) OotP Patronus messages.
That would work, and requires the skill to send one, and a wand.
OotP members, AFAIK, are the only ones who know how to use a Patronus in this fashion.
So, the only real suspect on who tipped off the OotP-
correct me if I left out any other possibilities-
is Snape.
So, could Snape's warning serve the OotP?
Obviously.
Do you really need me to type it all out?
Could Snape's warning serve the DEs?
Well,
it was the ONLY reason the OotP arrived.
If they had NOT, the MoM would have been the first on the scene,
and they would only arrive TOO LATE-as they did,
or even LATER-if the OotP/DE FIGHT brought them.
So, for it to serve the DEs, it would have to be in their interests for the OotP to
arrive.
That wasn't the case.
The DEs faced some brave members of the DA Club.
They put up a good fight, but, even underestimated, could only delay the DEs from
their goal-obtaining The Prophecy. If the OotP had not arrived, the DEs would have
left with The Prophecy, and probably taken one or more hostages from the DA Club,
certainly HARRY, probably NEVILLE (for Bellatrix's amusement.)
So, the OotP spoiled the DEs' plans.
So,
if I understand correctly,
the only person who could have tipped off the OotP was SNAPE,
and the warning benefitted the OotP but not the DEs.
ONLY Snape (and the Golden Trio-Harry, Hermione, Ron, maybe Ginny)
would know who sent the warning-
so it could not have gotten back to the DE's.
So, Snape sent a warning that benefitted the OotP and crushed a critical DE mission,
in a way that the DEs could not trace back to him.
Sounds like Snape is a spy FOR the OotP,
trying very hard not to "break his cover" with the DEs.
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rascal
VERY good points word wolf.
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Raf
Oh, all right. You've convinced me.
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WordWolf
Ok, let's see.
Status report on the horcruxes:
1) Tom Riddle's diary. Destroyed.
2) Marvolo's ring. Destroyed.
3) Slytherin's locket. Stolen by R.A.B. Believed by fans to be stolen by Regulus
Black, who attempted to leave the Death Eaters and died (probably by retrieving
this horcrux and getting poisoned.) It's believed to have appeared in Book 5,
at 12 Grimmauld Place, among the items they cleaned out. (A locket no one could
open.) Whether it's still there, or Kreacher took it, or Mundungus took it
(and if he's sold it since) is still to be shown. (One running theory is Mundungus
stole it and sold it to Aberforth Dumbledore, barkeep of the Hogs Head tavern
in Hogsmeade village.)
4) Hufflepuff's cup? This is suspected, and hasn't been identified yet.
Does anyone remember a goblet from a previous book other than the Goblet of Fire?
5) Nagini the snake. Still alive. (Unconfirmed as a horcrux.)
6) Harry's scar. This hasn't been named as a horcrux yet.
7) Voldy himself makes 7.
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padfoot806
Harry's scar? How can that be?
I thought the other horcrux was something of either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw.
If Harry's scar is indeed a horcrux, it must be the eighth. By the time Voldemort got to Harry's parents, he was already at the height of his powers and probably had already created his seven horcruxes. Whatever he gave to Harry would not have been intentional. And when Voldemort tried to possess Harry in the fifth book, he couldn't.
Although...now that I think about it, it would make a lot of sense. Still, what of Gryffindor or Ravenclaw's object?
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ChasUFarley
Harry's scar would be fitting and would also fit into the horcrux being in the Gryffindor house, as HARRY is in the the Gryffindor house. It's been hinted at and even Dd said that there was a link between Harry and V'mort thru that scar. But I was under the impression that Dd didn't fully understand how the link exactly worked OR didn't want to really discuss it with Harry at that time. Remember - Dd withheld the truth from Harry about his prophsey.
Also - Wordwolf - there's another way that Snape could have communicated - through the paintings. Remember, there was a painting of a headmaster, who was a relative of Sirius, hanging in the headmaster's office. There was also another painting at Grimmold (sp?) Place - that former headmaster and relative of Sirius could have easily been the one who tipped off the Order with a message from Snape in Hogwarts.
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WordWolf
Book 6, page-506.
"However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least
one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house
with the intention of killing you.
He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcuxes for particularly
significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that
in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy had outlined.
He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was
intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.
As we know, he failed."
I agree with everything Dumbledore said except the last sentence.
Voldy actually SUCCEEDED in making the Horcrux (but failed to kill
Harry.) It requires a death to power it, and either Lily's death or
Voldy's OWN death qualified to set it up.
By making the Riddle diary a Horcrux, Voldemort gave it part of his
own personality and power. By making Harry's scar a Horcrux, Voldy gave
him part of his own personality and power:
A) Harry became a parselmouth
B) Harry was a natural for Slytherin in the Sorting
C) Trelawney guessed he was born in midwinter-
was she completely full of it, or was RIDDLE born in midwinter?
Harry was born at the end of July (same day as JK Rowling.)
D) Dumbledore himself noted the similarities at the end of Book 2.
E) Book 2, the first time Harry hears the name Tom Riddle,
he RECOGNIZES IT,
but can't place it.
Voldy stopped using that name years ago, but Harry seems to recognize
it as if it was someone's name he heard years ago.
===
What of Gryffindor's object?
That was HARRY.
His parents lived in Godric's Hollow (as in Godric Gryffindor).
JKR herself was SURPRISED one editor never drew a connection between the
name of the village and the name of the Hogwarts Founder.
Harry drew Godric Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat.
"Only a True Gryffindor" could have done that.
Besides, the only known relic of Godric Gryffindor IS that sword.
(Book 6, p-505).
"I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains
safe.
Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a
ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case."
=====
Further, Voldy had no plans to make 7 or more Horcruxes. He was planning
on splitting his soul 7 ways. He has to retain at least 1 of the 7.
This means he could make a maximum of 6 Horcruxes. That's why a list of
7 includes Voldy himself, although he is not actually a Horcrux.
And, of course whatever he passed Harry wasn't intentional-
at least, he didn't go there intending to make Harry a Horcrux.
He went there intending to use Harry's death to power up a Horcrux he
entered the house carrying. The explosion probably obliterated the
item he had in mind. So, the scar's power was almost reflexive-
Voldy was casting out part of his soul, and it reached Harry rather
than the Avada Kedavra which ricocheted.
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WordWolf
There's a problem with that.
Dumbledore's office sealed itself off from outside entry once Dumbledore
left in Book 5. Thus, nobody could have communicated with Phineas
Nigellus' portrait there. (Although you had me there for a moment.)
The next person to enter the office was Harry, once Dumbledore made him
a Portkey to access the office. Dumbledore arrived minutes later.
That's when they had the big argument.
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padfoot806
When people first started suggesting that Harry's scar was a horcrux, I disagreed, but it's definitely starting to make a whole lot of sense.
Oh, and I didn't mean to say Harry's scar made an eighth horcrux -- I wasn't thinking.
Do you think, if Harry's scar is indeed the sixth horcrux, that Voldemort knows? If he didn't know, you'd think he'd go ahead and try to make another one -- either that or forget about them completely in light of recent trauma (namely, almost dying).
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Raf
No matter what he did, Harry's scar would still be a horcrux.
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padfoot806
I was only wondering because Dumbledore said he doubted Voldemort knew when the other horcruxes were being destroyed. However, if he knew about Harry's scar being a horcrux, he would probably still be highly aware of it. Although Dumbledore did say that it was unlikely Voldemort knew that Harry could feel his scar prickling when Voldemort was feeling intense emotions...so I suppose I've answered my own question.
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ChasUFarley
Wordwolf - you're forgetting that the people in the paintings can go into other's paintings - sort of pass through them. The Fat Lady did it when she was attacked - she went and hid. In one of the first books, The Fat Lady and Vi, a witch from another painting, were sharing some Christmas cheer together. In the 3rd book, a crazy knight gave the Golden Trio directions to Professor Tralawny's room when they had lost their way. Since some of the former Hogwart's headmasters could come and go from St. Mongo's or the Ministry of Magic offices, would think that they wouldn't have limits from Dd's office - I think it would be possible.
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WordWolf
The problem with that is that it presumes copies of the paintings exist where they
have never been mentioned. JKR HATES to bring a "deus ex machina" out of
nowhere. You can usually trace things back to earlier mentions if you try.
Didn't you recognize the corridor in Hogwarts that had the tapestry of
Barnabus the Barmy, who tried to teach trolls how to do ballet? I knew something
was up when something happened in that corridor, although I forgot WHICH corridor
it was and I didn't care enough to look it up, I remembered it was important enough to
require directions, which happened very rarely.
That means it's not IMPOSSIBLE for a character like Snape to have access to one of the
paintings, i.e. "Snape addressed his portrait of Nigellus Black, his favourite Headmaster
in all of Hogwarts history." However, it is uncharacteristic for JKR to just have this
happen with no mention of the possibility.
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Steve!
Hmmmm, very interesting points about Harry's scar being the 6th Horcrux.
So in order for Voldemort to die, Harry has to die first, and then someone else can kill Voldy, right?
How does that fit with the prophecy - "neither can survive while the other lives" or however it goes?
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WordWolf
I didn't say "Harry" was the 6th Horcrux,
I said Harry's SCAR was the 6th Horcrux.
Big difference.
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Steve!
So how do you get rid of Harry's scar without getting rid of Harry?
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padfoot806
I have a question about horcruxes.
I mean, you could theoretically kill a person before you destroyed the horcruxes that contained other portions of that person's soul, right?
So Harry could destroy Voldemort and THEN destroy Hufflepuff's chalice or whatever...or would the portion of Voldemort's soul in Hufflepuff's chalice become a new Voldemort?
If the Riddle diary hadn't been destroyed and Ginny had in fact died, would there be two Voldemorts? Would the diary have joined up with the embodied Voldemort?
Also, if Harry's scar is a horcrux and Harry killed Voldemort, in what manner would Voldemort live on in Harry? Would a new Voldemort pop out of Harry's forehead for him to do battle with?
I really just don't understand.
In regard to the question about whether or not you can kill a person before you destroy the horcruxes, my logic is that it seems improbable to me that the Voldemort with the body could not be destroyed before the horcruxes.... If you imagine Voldemort himself as just a seventh horcrux, what would make this horcrux special? It's not logical unless it's the sort of deal where all the horcruxes must be destroyed in the order in which they were made, so to speak, with their originator destroyed last. In that case the Riddle diary would come first...but what of the others? Do we even know the order in which they were made?
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Steve!
Whoa, slow down there!
JKRowling has answered a couple of these questions in interviews.
If the diary had not been destroyed and the Riddle memory had taken corporeal form, it would have joined up with Voldy somehow, uniting with him and making him more powerful.
Voldemort can't be killed until all of his horcruxes are destroyed. Remember, he was a bodiless entity in HP&tSS? If someone was able to "kill" the current Voldy body, he would revert to that form until all of his horcruxes were destroyed, at which point (I think) he would die.
I don't think order matters, but that's just my opinion.
And no, we don't know the order they were made.
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WordWolf
Right. This happened TWICE so far- Book 1, Chapter 1,at Godric's Hollow,
and again in Book 1 towards the end, at the Mirror of Erised.
No-that was a particular ability of the Riddle diary.
After Godric's Hollow, Voldy became non-physical, and "less than the meanest
ghost" (Voldy's description, Book 4, the cauldron scene.)
Voldy existed thru possession-of animals, and the back of Quirrel's head.
Thru a means as-yet not fully understood (I think it relates to the snake Nagini),
Voldy eventually grew a tiny homonculus-like body from that form-
which, I say, is a huge improvement over being completely dead.
I speculate he drew off biomass from something he inhabited (Nagini) to get that
body.
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=17
"..what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?"
"I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have
strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably."
==
We KNOW the result would have been a solid "Riddle" and an incorporeal "Voldy"
who was "less than the meanest ghost".
Then what?
It is my GUESS that the Voldy-ghostthing would have possessed the solid Riddle
and skipped the entire Book 4 experience. He would have the Book as an intact
horcrux, Hogwarts would have been closed, and Voldy would have been able to use
the Chamber of Secrets/ Hogwarts as a staging area, and used the magics native to
Hogwarts as resources. (According to Dumbledore in Book 6, Riddle applied-TWICE-
to be a teacher at Hogwarts to try to get access to its magics.
To take the meanings of horcruxes strictly-and to judge by myths which JKR herself
drew from-
it is THAT a horcrux exists that is important. The normally do not DIRECTLY
contribute to the survival of the person in a physical, material way. They just
maintain part of their soul/essence so that the person can live on.
They are normally NOT meant to sustain a person past PHYSICAL destruction- just
normal causes of death-like disease, organ failure, "natural causes", even massive
damage (many organs destroyed because someone parked a truck on Voldy.)
Consider the movie vampire, who, although he's been STAKED, is still "alive" until
he's hit with sunlight. He can be chopped up and stuff, but someone can put the
pieces back together and remove the stake and there he goes again.
So, NORMALLY, a Horcrux sits in a remote location, left alone, and quietly does what
it's supposed to do.
So, if someone came along and exploded Voldy again ("Voldemort explodicus"),
then he'd go back to ghost-form and eventually return, either like he did with
Quirrel, or like he did at the beginning of Book 4.
So, if even ONE horcrux survived, and Voldy was exploded, he'd come back like he did
before. If Voldy was in ghosty-form, and the last horcrux was destroyed,
Voldy would be stuck. He MIGHT survive like a ghost, but more likely he'd have
nothing connecting him to the world. Then again, Voldy's scared of death, so he
MIGHT be stuck forever as a ghost, subject to their rules. I'd argue against it
because there's only 1/7 of him left TO become a ghost-I'd argue that's not enough
to retain an identity. (He might become a ghost with no personality, or the
ghost of Forrest Gump or something, if he made it to ghosthood.)
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rascal
How does this relate to the unicorns blood he drank (can`t remember which book but Harry saw it when he was in the forest doing detention with Hagrid, Neville, and Malfoy) ?
Remember .... there was a big deal about slaying the pure and that it gave him some kind of life or immortality.
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Steve!
It was Quirrell that drank the unicorn's blood, not Voldy.
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rascal
But it was to benefit Voldemort....Couldn`t have done much cause quirrel died.
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