SPOILER THREAD Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince SPOILER THREAD

[laleo]

SPOILER ALERT!!!

If you haven't read the book and don't want to know what happened, read no further!

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Okay, what did you think?

Edited July 21, 2005 by laleo

[Steve!]

That "unbreakable vow" that Snape performed had me thinking, "Okay, how are he and Dumbledore going to get around this?"

It also had me thinking that it was foreshadowing that Snape really *couldn't* be trusted by DD, that he really *is* on Voldy's side.

There was a place in the book where DD said that they could make Malfoy's family appear to be dead, so is DD really dead?

JKR has said that we will find out why DD was able to trust Snape implicitly. So I guess these questions will be answered in book 7.

[WordWolf]

Well, here WERE my candidates for "1/2 Blood Prince",

from most likely to least,

and the reasonings for each.

General reasonings:

==================

1) a teenager (otherwise he overshadows the Golden Trio)

(I was 1/2 right)

2) there to unify the Houses or wizarding world, which justifies his

presence in the story

(wrong-and I find the true answer was dissonant, and the story

"tripped" over him)

=====

At least I beat Mugglenet. They kept insisting the exerpt FROM

"HBP" was a description OF the HBP.

It was actually a description of the new Minister of Magic.

====

Steve,

the Avada Kedavra is unblockable,

"instant death, no saving throw" unless the spell is intercepted

(like the battle between Voldemort and Dumbledore at the end of

Book 5.)

If you're hit by it, stick a fork in you-you're done.

The only except EVER was Harry's birth, and that was due to what Lily

did at the time.

======

I considered the magic that kept Voldemort alive to be some sort of

serpent magic, since he survived "shedding his skin",

is a parselmouth, and used Nagini the snake for some sort of potion.

We knew he was less than human, so I thought the rest was ANIMAL

rather than MISSING.

Ok, he's split 7 ways.

1) Voldything

2) the Riddle diary (destroyed)

3) the Slytherin ring (destroyed)

4) the Slytherin locket (destroyed by R.A.B.)

5) another item Dumbledore tracked down (destroyed), I forgot which

6) unidentified item

7) Harry Potter's scar.

So, depending, there's either 2 items, the scar and Voldy himself

(if R.A.B. lied)

or 1 item, the scar and Voldy himself.

The remaining intact item is suggested to be the Hufflepuff chalice.

======

I found the coyness about horcruxes to be senseless.

"Harry, I want to find out what he told Voldy about horcruxes."

"Sure. Don't give me any information about horcruxes, I'll just have

Hermione draw a blank after turning the library upside down and

shaking it. I'd rather be clueless until I succeed in my interrogation."

I have 2 complaints that I might withdraw after a reread.

One of them is that it looks like the students in school at the time

James Potter was at Hogwarts were discounted entirely as candidates

for the HBP.

[WordWolf]

I forgot my candidates. Whoops.

Here were my candidates BEFORE the book came out.

A) Trevor the toad.

Nesbitt, JKR's favourite writer, rewrites fairy tales. I thought JKR was rewriting

"the Frog Prince". Trevor just shows up inconveniently FAR too many times.

There were also little foreshadows of this with things like Umbridge's description

as looking like a frog. (She sounded like she had a nonhuman ancestor.)

The only things I didn't have: how to lift the curse, and who he is prince OF.

B) Neville Longbottom.

My supposition was that this "pureblood" could have one parent descended from

Godric Gryffindor, and another parent descended from Helga Hufflepuff,

thus having 2 bloodlines.

He would unite the Hogwarts Houses.

C) A new character, 1/2 wizard, 1/2 goblin.

Goblins need to join in the war. A prince would bring them in.

Goblins make good armour and weapons, handle all the money, and can do magic of their

own (opening Harry's Gringotts safe, opening the one Hagrid needed open, Book 1.)

D) A new character, 1/2 wizard, 1/2 centaur.

Centaurs would be forced to participate in the world, as the war comes to their

doorstep.

In all honesty, I think all my guesses made more sense than what JKR wrote.

[Cindy!]

quote:

Steve,

the Avada Kedavra is unblockable,

"instant death, no saving throw" unless the spell is intercepted

(like the battle between Voldemort and Dumbledore at the end of

Book 5.)

If you're hit by it, stick a fork in you-you're done.

The only except EVER was Harry's birth, and that was due to what Lily

did at the time.

BUT...the point had been made...and very clearly, I might add...that you could cast a spell without speaking it. SO...DD (or someone else) COULD have cast a spell to intercept the Avada Kedavra

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by Steve!:

That "unbreakable vow" that Snape performed had me thinking, "Okay, how are he and Dumbledore going to get around this?"

This is why I think he cast it normally.

quote:

There was a place in the book where DD said that they could make Malfoy's family appear to be dead, so is DD really dead?

The only chance-which I think didn't happen due to the Unbreakable Vow-

is that SS cast a nonverbal spell to put him into hibernation,

and immediately after it, recited the verbal component of the Avada Kedavra

without actually putting the magic behind it.

quote:

JKR has said that we will find out why DD was able to trust Snape implicitly. So I guess these questions will be answered in book 7.

Maybe.

For the first time, I'm not confident she'll bring this to a successful conclusion.

[Steve!]

quote:

Harry Potter's scar

Ummm, hmmmm. I don't really think so, because he was trying to kill Harry.

Also, the book doesn't say that Regulus A. Black destroyed the locket, just that he took it. We should assume that it HASN'T been destroyed.

Also, I don't think that the other thing tracked down by DD was destroyed.

So I think there are 4 things that Harry has to find and destroy, and then he can kill Voldy.

I agree about the dissonance - when Snape said that he was the HBP, Harry should have had a "stun" moment or something.

Oh, and Laleo - you should put "SPOILER ALERT!" in the title of the thread.

[ChasUFarley]

quote:

Steve,

the Avada Kedavra is unblockable,

"instant death, no saving throw" unless the spell is intercepted

(like the battle between Voldemort and Dumbledore at the end of

Book 5.)

If you're hit by it, stick a fork in you-you're done.

The only except EVER was Harry's birth, and that was due to what Lily

did at the time.

IT WAS BLOCKED when Harry and Voldy dueled at the end of the Goblet of Fire book. Remember, they both had the same core - a phoenix feather - in the wands - brother wands, if you will. Harry was able to get Voldy's wand to do a "reverse" of the AK spell, which showed many of the people (a likeness, ghost, if you will) of them, including Harry's parents.

[padfoot806]

This is Laleo's daughter. For the record, she did write "spoiler" on the thread (Steve!).

I think Snape must have killed Dumbledore because otherwise, why would the immobulus charm have been raised from Harry? If Dumbledore were still alive, there would be no reason for it to be lifted unless Dumbledore did it himself, in which case he probably was not being hibernated anyway.

I think it's like Harry says at the end, that he's got to be alone when it all goes down, no parents, no godfather, no Dumbledore, and that's the reason JK killed him.

And who says R.A.B is Regulus? That was my first thought, but is there anything to back it up? I thought in OOTP, someone said that Regulus wasn't even high up enough to have been killed by Voldemort personally -- so what are the chances that he'd been able to figure out the Dark Lord's secret?

And I thought the horcruxes were:

Diary (destroyed)

Ring (destroyed)

Locket

Nagini

Hufflepuff's chalice

Something of either Ravenclaw or Gryffindor

Voldemort himself

What's all this about Dumbledore having found one other than the ring and the locket?

And if Dumbledore really did have a reason to trust Snape implicitly, well I am very anxious to hear it; I had all my faith in Snape until the second he killed Dumbledore. What a fool I am.

Oh, and in reply to WordWolf talking about why Voldemort remained alive in the face of Avada Kedavra, I was under the impression that the reason he was alive is because the spell rebounded off of Harry: When a spell bounces off a person, it becomes weaker, and in the case of Avada Kedavra, not fatal.

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by ChasUFarley:

quote:

Steve,

the Avada Kedavra is unblockable,

"instant death, no saving throw" unless the spell is intercepted

(like the battle between Voldemort and Dumbledore at the end of

Book 5.)

If you're hit by it, stick a fork in you-you're done.

The only except EVER was Harry's birth, and that was due to what Lily

did at the time.

IT WAS BLOCKED when Harry and Voldy dueled at the end of the Goblet of Fire book. Remember, they both had the same core - a phoenix feather - in the wands - brother wands, if you will. Harry was able to get Voldy's wand to do a "reverse" of the AK spell, which showed many of the people (a likeness, ghost, if you will) of them, including Harry's parents.

That made my point.

In the case of the Priori Incantatem,

Harry and Voldemort fired simultaneously,

and the identical wand-cores produced a resonance when the

spells connected the wands.

Otherwise, the thing wouldnt have stopped it.

Dumbledore used a statue and Fawkes to block spells at the

end of Book 5 as well.

If an Avada Kedavra hits its target, however, that's it.

(DaDA lesson one, year 4.)

If an AK hits an inanimate object, generally speaking, the

object is exploded. ("Ronicus Explodicus".)

If it hits a person, they die instantly and leave an intact

corpse (Book 4, Cedric Diggory.) They fall like they were

switched off.

========

Technically,

we do not KNOW R.A.B. is Regulus Alphard Black.

However, he seems an obvious choice.

He used D.E. terms (Dark Lord), and expected to die

(which Regulus SHOULD have expected when he tried to

defect.) If Regulus did it, he thought

"You may kill me, but I'll seal your doom in the process-

I'll destroy your horcrux (horcruxes are rare and are only

made ONE per soul) so you can be killed."

He had opportunity (only a D.E. would know the location and

that there WAS a horcrux), and motive.

Of course, EVERYBODY had a motive:

the good guys (kill the bad guy)

and the bad guys (topple Voldy and REPLACE him)

[padfoot806]

"Avada Kedavra is unblockable [...] unless the spell is intercepted"

So you're saying the spell can't be blocked unless it is. So wait...what's the point you're trying to make?

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by padfoot806:

"Avada Kedavra is unblockable [...] unless the spell is intercepted"

So you're saying the spell can't be blocked unless it is. So wait...what's the point you're trying to make?

Let me rephrase this.

If someone fires an Avada Kedavra at you, you have until it

reaches you to find some way to keep it from touching you.

Dumbledore blocked a spell at the MoM with one of the statues.

Fawkes swallowed another.

Harry parried a third using his own spell and the Priori

Incantatem effect.

Presumably, if you Disapparated out of its path, you'd be fine

also. It will keep going and explode on impact.

If the AK touched you, that's it-you're history.

Hagrid can shrug off individual stunning spells and so on due to

his giant-type magic resistance. If an AK hit him, he'd just

fall over dead. No resistance can shrug off the AK.

So, if Hagrid wanted to survive it, he'd need to block it with

something before it reached him as well.

[WordWolf]

BTW,

if ALL guesses are correct...

The locket was stolen by Regulus Black, who died of

the poison soon after dropping it off at 12

Grimmauld Place.

It was discovered in Book 5 during the cleaning:

"a locket no one could open"

It was stolen from 12 Grimmauld Place by Mundungus

Fletcher in Book 6 when he was stealing Harry blind.

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by padfoot806:

I think Snape must have killed Dumbledore because otherwise, why would the immobulus charm have been raised from Harry? If Dumbledore were still alive, there would be no reason for it to be lifted unless Dumbledore did it himself, in which case he probably was not being hibernated anyway.

The appearance of the new portrait in the Headmaster's Office seemed

to be a giveaway.

quote:

I think it's like Harry says at the end, that he's got to be alone when it all goes down, no parents, no godfather, no Dumbledore, and that's the reason JK killed him.

That's why I suspected it for the end of Book 6, also.

quote:

And who says R.A.B is Regulus? That was my first thought, but is there anything to back it up? I thought in OOTP, someone said that Regulus wasn't even high up enough to have been killed by Voldemort personally -- so what are the chances that he'd been able to figure out the Dark Lord's secret?

Amazing what you can figure out sometimes.

The current theories are that it's definitely Regulus.

Further, for JKR to keep introducing important characters across Book

7 will be somewhat excessive.

quote:

And I thought the horcruxes were:

Diary (destroyed)

Ring (destroyed)

Locket

Nagini

Hufflepuff's chalice

Something of either Ravenclaw or Gryffindor

Voldemort himself

What's all this about Dumbledore having found one other than the ring and the locket?

I'll have to reread it and check.

quote:

And if Dumbledore really did have a reason to trust Snape implicitly, well I am very anxious to hear it; I had all my faith in Snape until the second he killed Dumbledore. What a fool I am.

Like some others, I think Snape could be loyal and still killed

Dumbledore. My objection is that we still havent seen a good reason

for Dumbledore to say "I trust him completely" and Dumbledore can no

longer give us one.

quote:

Oh, and in reply to WordWolf talking about why Voldemort remained alive in the face of Avada Kedavra, I was under the impression that the reason he was alive is because the spell rebounded off of Harry: When a spell bounces off a person, it becomes weaker, and in the case of Avada Kedavra, not fatal.

It appears the house was intact before Voldy fired the AK,

and it was trashed when Hagrid arrived.

(Or Wormtail, if he arrived sooner, which is unlikely.)

It looks to me like it was not decreased in power.

JKR has also said in interviews that one really important question

is: why didn't Voldemort die?

If it was just the decreased power of a ricochet,

that's NOT an important question.

If it's because the horcruxes anchor him to reality,

then it IS important.

Further, don't forget Harry's scar.

It's the LAST link Voldemort placed for himself to the world.

Me, I keep thinking Voldy's magic should be 1/7 of what it originally

was, but JKR seems to disagree.

[rascal]

Snape still being loyal....hmmm

Do you suppose Dumbledor HAD to die for some reason?

That this was part of a calculated plan? I mean, what was the point of freezing Harry anyway?

Did it have something to do with his growing weakness and slowness....was he some how damaged beyond fixing when he got that blackened hand?

Did he ever give the promised details of how he got the ring???

Somehow, I cannot see Dumbledor sacrificed so senslessly.....

[Cindy!]

I really think it was pre-arranged by Dumbledore and Snapes beforehand (remember the argument between them that was witnessed but not overheard?). THAT way, they would freeze Harry so that he would not get hurt while they did the pre-arranged pattern that made it LOOK like DD died, Fawkes grieving and the picture in the headmasters office would all have been part of the plan.

I think Harry and Dumbledore will both return to Hogwarts by the end of book 7.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

ok ,who dies and who is the hbp??

[Cindy!]

Read da book, chef!!! -->

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

bought it the first day!!!come on spoil it for me

i wanna know!

[Steve!]

Several die, and Snape is the HBP.

Amanda Bones dies

Albus Dumbledore dies

I forget, who's that other woman that dies right before the start of the book?

Oh, and Tonks and Lupin fall in love, and Bill and Fleur are engaged.

Happy now?

[ChasUFarley]

Snape killing Dd:

In more than one instance in the series, Dd makes a statement like, "There are some things worse than death," and in another books he says (about Snape), "I'd trust him with my life."

So, with that being said...

I believe those comments set the grounds for Snape "offing" Dd BUT not as a technical 'murder' (cold blood). Also, I wonder if Dd's 'sacrafice' doesn't count as some 'protection' for Harry in someway later on...

[Cindy!]

DD did say something to the Dursleys about Harry going back there once for the protection to continue. So you may be right, chas...but how would Harry be protected that way???

[ChasUFarley]

The AK curse - this also failed when Harry tried it on Bella because he didn't "mean" it enough. So, it's not some sure-fire thing - the user has to be trained to use it effectively or it will just knock someone over and they'll live to tell about it...

[ChasUFarley]

quote:

DD did say something to the Dursleys about Harry going back there once for the protection to continue. So you may be right, chas...but how would Harry be protected that way???

Not 100% sure - just a thought really. I'm basing it on the "ancient magic" that Harry's mother envoked when she was slain by Voldemort that put the protective shield on Harry. It was from her love for him that made that shield. Dd is very fond of Harry - he's always had a "grandfatherly" presence with Harry, so I think there may be something like that in the works. Just my thoughts.

[Steve!]

quote:

Originally posted by ChasUFarley:

The AK curse - this also failed when Harry tried it on Bella because he didn't "mean" it enough. So, it's not some sure-fire thing - the user has to be trained to use it effectively or it will just knock someone over and they'll live to tell about it...

Ummmm, Harry never tried AK - he tried Cruciatus.