One thing though- if they were involved in Der Vey as an abusive leader in the past, I think they need to recognize that those effects of said actions are not going to go away. Like it or not.
Right, Hamm. That's why if ex-twi people haven't been genuinely retrained by a genuine organization that knows how to train Christian leaders, these "ministers," even though they may have had a few courses in the new wine, or whatever, are still going to LEAD the same 'ole twi way because that's all they know.
I mean, I don't think they wake up one morning and say, gee, I'm going to screw over the people in my fellowship or church today. No, they simply continue to "minister" by default--the way they were trained. True, they may not scream at people in their faces anymore because no one in an offshoot will tolerate that (should have said "few people" because some, sadly to say, still do in at least one offshot in Indy), but negative behaviors don't just go away. They have to be replaced with alternate, healthy behaviors, as any educator on this forum knows.
So, if the only training an individual has ever had was in the way corps, then they can say, "Gee, we're diffent. We have different doctrine, " but when push comes to shove, if those replacement behaviors aren't in place, (e.g. true Christian qualities instilled and taught to them by qualified Christian ministers in a Godly school for ministers) then, their default twi behaviors will, in some areas, imho, lead them in their dealings with the flock.
I agree that the body of Christ as God's design is perfect. And it works perfectly when people work together, as God intended.
But when fallible human beings, who make up this body, fail to function as God designed, then there are problems galore, as addressed by Paul in Corinthians.
And I agree that imposing a man-made design upon the body of Christ that contradicts and works at counter-purposes with what God intended, only fouls up the works even further.
what is shocking is I belong to many groups of people many different types etc... I work in customer service.
My experience in the offshoot I attended shown me more about what abuse is than twi ever did.
I never saw it in twi I was so darn blind it was even possible.
even after hearing stories and john LYnn rant about twi and all of it and seeing people fall down in life first hand I denied it all and went with the programof believing all is good.
or will be if we just keep believing in our leaders and love one another.
then the off shoot and I could no longer deny it, my children had grown old enough to ask questions on why people would be this way or why is this or that. it struck a chord in me deep and I HONESTLY started looking at what I was looking at.
and people can cry redemption all they want (we all do) and pity the poor fool who learned but is so much better now. Im not it hell yeah !
I do not know your church but I hear your attitude of not welcoming anyone who would disagree or question loud and clear, and blaming it on what exactly? my person. But yet scream for the forgivness and redemption for anyone I may ask or doubt, that you feel is fit enough.
here is the bottom line sexual preditors reign in groups such as called christian because of the idea.. such as you spew. for a reason. they can . because they are nice christian folks who asks for forgivness and "needs" christ and guess what they walk in just as forgivin in their mind as everyone elses pompus I belong and really care about YOU and the past is the past and lets not ruin another MINISTRY for God.
no one is capable of ruining Gods ministry . He aint that small .only small minded close knit people claiming some superiour being hood in the name of Christ and needing to clean the flock and keep those who agree and "will stand" with them need apply.
what does that mean exactly "stand with" to me I hear cover each other foot when the going gets rough and to any outsiders question your authority.
“What’s wrong with a group who loves each other, stands with each other, shares the scriptures with one another and attempts in their own limited way to stand together in Christ?â€
One way they stand with each other is in prayers. Another is in caring for each other in the hospital or caring for the family of one who is infirm. Standing by someone when life has challenged him or her. Caring for a brother who lost a job, wife or family member. Having finances available for someone down and out or suddenly having financial troubles. Sometimes it’s nothing more than sharing the scriptures with each other. The point is we don’t give up on each other. We don’t bite and devour one another as once might have happened.
It’s all part of standing by someone you care for. Call it what you will, fellowship, being a caring brother in Christ. The term isn’t nearly as important as the actions.
I agree that the body of Christ as God's design is perfect. And it works perfectly when people work together, as God intended.
I know what you're saying, Catcup, but I would contend that it always works perfectly. I believe it's above and beyond the reach of any man's meddling with it, messing it up, causing it not to work.
I think this is one thing VP got right doctrinally, if not in practice: that the Body of Christ is perfect and eternal. To say that anything we can do can make it work improperly is, to me, like saying I can reach up into the night sky and move the moon over a few hundred miles.
God's in charge of the Body of Christ. He puts it together according to His plan and it will stay together throughout eternity. It's just not something we can see the perfection in by looking at men.
I believe God makes no mistakes when He places members in the Body as it pleases Him. I don't think the Body of Christ is something you can "see in action" like VP taught. I think we can be aware of it deep inside, spiritually, but those are just glimpses.
Sorry, I don't want to get this thread sent to the Doctrinal forum, but this subject is near to my heart. And Litwin, I enjoyed your earlier post on this subject.
Linda I can agree with what you say in a lot of things. I also believe the higher ups at twi did not and do not give a crap about God. It is all for them, nothing else.
If a man or women really wants to lead Gods people and try to do the right thing I can see a household in a loose sence of the word. God does have the whole household.
If a leader does make a mistake and wants to make it right with God and the people the leader can.
The problem with twi they were making mistakes all over the place and could give a crap about it. It was and is all about money and some perverts.
I think maybe one of the main problems is when people form organizations that purport to speak on God's behalf. The way corps claimed to be experts on "spiritual awareness", when in fact nothing could have been further from the truth.
I have nothing against churches as long as they are not confused with the spiritual body of Christ. I agree with Linda in regards to the perfection of that spiritual body...too many folks see the impressive building, the numbers of people, the slick talking preacher, and all their programs and assets and then replace the spiritual reality of the one body with their particular religious group.
I have this notion that a person must first come to the Lord and develope a relationship with Him...build your faith within yourself, without it being filtered through other people first...and then enjoy the fellowship of others who share your faith. Men and organizations seem all to eager to claim spiritual authority and oftentimes hinder a person's spiritual life.
Didn't Paul spend something like 13 years by himself, before he began his traveling and preaching?
Dizzy, I like your definition of "standing together". That's why I've stuck with the offshoot I'm in. We've known each other since TWI ( left in the '89 exodus ) and we've stuck with each other through good times and bad. What you've described is "the family of God" in action.
Linda, with all due respect, while I agree that God's design of the Body of Christ is absolutely perfect, if it always worked perfectly and was beyond the reach of any man's messing with it, Paul would have not needed to write I Corinthians, especially the latter verses of chapter 12 where Paul instructs on the necessity of each and every member in the body.
For the body to work as God designed, people must be willing to work together as God designed them to. And that is up to each individual in each particular congregation. God won't force people to work together. If they don't want to, they injure each other and thwart God's purposes.
Where the members work together as God designed, everyone is supplied and nourished, and God is allowed to work among his people to care for them and reach out to the world.
Where members do not work together as God designed, supply and nourishment is sporadic, members are constantly injuring each other, and God is limited as to what He can do within that particular group of people.
Each Christian, and each and every group of born again Christians, is part of the body of Christ. TWI is part of the Body of Christ. However in their case, they abuse and mutilate each other and cut each other out of the fellowship, the exact things that Corinthians was written to address within the body of Christ. That is just part of what accounts for the "spotty" results and inconsistent experiences of people involved with TWI.
Every born again person is a member of the Body of Christ, and every group of believers help make up the entire body. Where people work together as God intended, the body works as designed and the needs get met among that group. Where there is envy and strife, jealousy and hatred, confusion and corruption, you have the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of thee." That is what The Way International has done. It is against God's design. That is what keeps God from meeting all the needs within that group of people.
TWI wants to teach that the body is only made up of the most mature believers, the most knowlegable believers, the ones who walk perfectly, and they are the only true body, and God works primarily through their ministry.
This error ignores the fact (among others) that while all Christians are at various stages of maturity in their walks with God, each believer can have a full fellowship with God and God can work through them no matter how much or how little they "know," and how old or how young they are in Christ. It's a matter of heart and willingness, not simply knowledge or spiritual maturity.
But enough. This is probably something better addressed in the doctrinal forum. I've started a thread there for the purpose of that discussion, for anyone who wants to kick around ideas, questions, and thoughts on it.
WHAT THAT DESCRIBES TO ME IS FRIENDS WHO LIKE COMMON THINGS AND DO NOT CARE FOR CHANGE OR TO RIDE OUT OF THEIR COMFORT ZONE.
i REALLY CAN NOT DESCRIBE THE DIFFERENCE OF THE VERSE OF NOT NEEDING THE APPROVAL OF MEN. I stand with Christ for fellowship I seek the approval of God. YOu would be surprized at the number of good loving folks on this trip with me! perfect strangers even, with the peaceful smile standing with me and I got a witness in the inner being of just being a Holy people for God , it is spiritual . and it is real and it is the best love God ever made.
GOD IS SO MUCH LARGER BIGGER SWEETER.
YEAH i HAD A GROUP LIKE THAT AND WHEN i WANTED TO PRAY FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT IN AGREEMENT OR DO SOMETHING THE GROUP WAS CONVINCED WAS WRONG i FELT PRESSURE TO BE LOVED BY THEM , I FELT i SHOULD DO THE RIGHT THING EVEN THO IT WAS WRONG FOR ME. oops sorry for caps .
I didnt have any other people to go to like the ones God has sent to let me know the truth I needed to hear. or to speak.
and it often works out with these tight knit "friends"just beautiful cause ya got the comfort of the group to say it is right and good and they agree, powerful even.
BUT my life demanded I walk away sometimes to check out who I am, who Christ is in my life , and why why I am who I am and why Im living in general.
I live in freedom if I moved to Africa my friends would be there with me friends I have never met before friends I can trust friends God has provided and who need me and I need them. On the trip to heaven with me with the LORDQ
that is why IM a christian I just cant get away from how fabulous Gods family is!!!!
but this my old friends every wednesday agreeing with me and loving me just the way I am after all these years.. isnt it.
hell NO Knowing Jesus has been alot of CHANGE and moving and shaking in this wild life of trusting God! where ever and who ever IM with.
love will be there cause Jesus is there. with me.
Jesus christ has been my oldest and longest and by far the best friend I have ever had, the worst times I have ever had in my life is waking up to realize I let HIM down I did Him wrong I lied to cover for someone I thought loved me more or could give me something and He couldnt.. I barely get over those days for the shame of knowing HIM and realizing I am still in NEED of His lordship in my life.
this entire world every single thing children cats house car and nice neighborhood job and someone liking me or loving me takes a far second place to what He may need or want me to do in life.
why because His father GAVE me life! and knows what I need to do to really live it. and I know beyond a doubt He loves me best of all and He can get the job done. in fact He already has and I owe him my own.
or I just go to billy bob house on wednesday and find out from my friends they still love me and I am ok and they are ok and God loves us all. and call it a life servicing the Lord and feel good about myself.
yeah plenty to do it that way, for me every since I got pushed off the cliff I kind of like life on the edge of not knowing of not being comfortable of seeking what today will bring as anadventure, as a prize from the LORD>
if those I know and love are with me it is a nice reward but just know the Lord is with me is always enough for me to be happy.
I believe God makes no mistakes when He places members in the Body as it pleases Him. I don't think the Body of Christ is something you can "see in action" like VP taught. I think we can be aware of it deep inside, spiritually, but those are just glimpses.
Shortly after we started our fellowship "back in the day" :)-->, we had over 30 people coming, & I always knew how everyone was doing - sure we talked and communicated about it, but it was more than that - I had a spiritual sense of what was happening - who was ministering to whom - the "joints and bands" ministering nourishment.
And it just wasn't me. I remember we (the "branch") were accused of not following the Way Tree (well, we weren't, but at the time I didn't realize how the rigid Way Tree, by design, cuts across lines of ministering set up by God). I spoke to the "branch leader" and others about it, & we all always had that spiritual sense of how things were going throughout the area - a cranking area with a solid year of back to back film classes (over 30 students - if you want to use that as a measure of growth). It was a most desired spiritual grasp on what was happening in our section of the body of Christ that those "following" the Way Tree didn't have.
Perhaps, Linda (thanks for the kind words), that was the "aware[ness] of it deep inside, spiritually, but those are just glimpses" that you were talking about. It was just a glimpse of the glory, but even that glimpse was supremely effective practically.
I think, as you indicated, Linda, VP had it right when he said that all growth that happens in the Body of Christ is spiritual.
I think the history of the growth of the Body of Christ is a history of growth outside the organizations born of men, or if it happens inside an organization born of men, it happens in spite of the organization.
Like the fruit of the spirit, there is no law against it.
In that sense, it can't be touched - GOd is always on top of the show, has the broad view, and makes everything work together for good to those who love Him.
On the other hand, on a very practical sense, the things that men, Christian men, do that are carnal, works that are wood, hay, & stubble that men try to build on the foundation of Christ; although, they don't utimately adulterate the Body of Christ - because they are in a sense burned at the point of entry into the glory of the bema, do, in the meanwhile, in this present age, serve to hinder the purposes of God, and divide the body in a real sense. Sorry for the long sentence; I haven't the time to correct it.
So, Linda, & Catcup, I think you are both correct.
Each Christian, and each and every group of born again Christians, is part of the body of Christ. TWI is part of the Body of Christ. However in their case, they abuse and mutilate each other and cut each other out of the fellowship, the exact things that Corinthians was written to address within the body of Christ. That is just part of what accounts for the "spotty" results and inconsistent experiences of people involved with TWI.
Every born again person is a member of the Body of Christ, and every group of believers help make up the entire body. Where people work together as God intended, the body works as designed and the needs get met among that group. Where there is envy and strife, jealousy and hatred, confusion and corruption, you have the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of thee." That is what The Way International has done. It is against God's design. That is what keeps God from meeting all the needs within that group of people.
Oh my gosh Catcup! I have been trying to figure this out exactly, and the way you said this hits the nail right smack on the head. Thanks!
It's weird because I started to think of this when I was still in. The whole explanation of the Body of Christ according to twi seemed so tainted and off. I just couldn't explain it. I think it was because they said one thing and did another. If you point blank asked a wayfer if the average Joe Christian was part of the Body, they would say of course. But their actions never lined up with their words. This was a very twisted doctrine in twi.
I always enjoyed fellowship and the connection with people based on a standard (even though many times there was a double standard in the ministry). So, after listening to radio hackers try and teach "psychology today" from the four Gospels, I went back and started a Romans 100 club.
In first year of the 10th Corps {1979-80}, Dr. was teaching Romans 8-16 to the Corps. Someone got the bright idea to read Romans 100 times. During the 1st month they taught speed weeding, so it seemed possible. Sure enough, someone hit the 100th mark around the end of October. I doubt he understood it, if he was speed reading.
I only have a handful of "members" in the club. And to avoid duplicating the ministry, I keep pretty close to Bullinger's stuff. It's informative and to the point. It allows for people to email me or one another with questions or comments and there isn't any real contact with each other.
The feed back had been wonderful. I write about 2 pages on MS Word and copy it over to email. This allows them to see a concise, to the point teaching that will allow them to get their noses out of the Gospels and into the Epistles.
I'm not involved with any offshoots but I have checked out four.
For my wife and I, two offshoots (CES and LMCI)were like a "halfway house" to "un-waybrain"!
One thing that helped me with these groups was the correction of erroneous TWI doctrines and practices. There were some similarities to TWI in these groups but there were also many differences.
Anyone still engrossed in waybrain or not sure what TWI doctrines are right or wrong, imo would benefit from hearing some teachings from these groups which have attempted to correct some erroneous TWI doctrine.
CES has something like 25 doctrinal differences then what Wierwille taught and LMCI teaches almost everything differently.
Even if you don't buy into the all the offshoots doctrines (I don't), it may help you to think about what TWI may have taught and practiced wrongly. It did for me.
I've also checked out two other offshoots, (CFF and Geers group) but I didn't spend too much time with either since both appeared too similar to TWI for my taste.
The folks involved with CFF were really nice and very loving. The folks in Geers group were judgemental and were not that loving unless you agreed 100% with them.
I haven't been involved with any of these offshoots in years so it's possible they may have changed since the last time I hung out with any of them.
I tried CES. It was wayyy too weird for me. Then I called up W*yne Cl*pp. He didn't have any CFF fellowships in San Diego, but he referred me to a Geerite group. I went and was gagged by the VP and Uncle Harry worship. People there said they never thought of themselves as "leaving the ministry". They couldn't even understand from where I was coming, nor did they seem to care. I never went to another offshoot. I decided then that I needed to find a church that I could be happy with, and I certainly did.
BTW, I did chat one night here at GSC with a young man involved with a CFF group, and I was impressed with his outlook on other groups than the one he was involved with. He didn't have an elitist nor Wierwille worshipping attitude. He actually acknowledged that there were other groups who do great things for God other than they do. That is a big step IMHO.
Originally posted by personalentertainr:...I doubt he understood it, if he was speed reading...
I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but I would think from your comments that your training in speed reading never clicked in. I would guess it didn't for the vast majority of Corps who were trained in it, but IMO the Corps training in speed reading was based on sound practice, but one would have to have practiced the speed reading training exercises consistently for a while for the benefit to finally "kick in."
I know the theory behind why speed reading works is controversial; as a matter of fact, whether it even works or not and how much those who speed read actually comprehend is debated among those in the field of reading, but, as far as I'm concerned, if it is done right, it works.
The reasons for slow reading and lack of comprehension that were taught are valid, I believe, and speed reading done properly overcomes those reasons for slow reading and lack of comprehension.
I took speed reading in the Way Corps three times, and it wasn't until the third time that it worked for me. Maybe I'm a slow learner of fast reading:)--> - just kidding. Actually, I think the Way Corps didn't apply enough training time to it for it to work for most.
I just finished a year of teaching intensive reading to high school students who scored in the bottom 1/4th of their classes in reading, & I had appreciably better results as measured on state standardized reading tests than all of the other - maybe ten or so - reading teachers in the high school. I use the speed reading principles taught in the WC in my classes. Although I also don't give them enough "training" for the speed reading to "kick in," I teach it, and I utilize the speed reading principles in our reading practice throughout the year here & there.
Anyway, there are a lot of other principles I use (with which those principles we were taught actually integrate well), and I'm not saying that speed reading is the magic bullet. But reading is a field I spend a lot of time in - both teaching and measuring tons of data to determine effectively the results of my teaching practices. Poor reading comprehension is a big problem in our country and in our schools, and again, IMO, there are too many mothers and fathers on this website to summarily dismiss the effectiveness of speed reading, especially when taught in conjunction with other principles fostering reading comprehension.
Okay, just something I'm involved with that I think is important - I'll shut up now about it:)-->.
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waterbuffalo
Right, Hamm. That's why if ex-twi people haven't been genuinely retrained by a genuine organization that knows how to train Christian leaders, these "ministers," even though they may have had a few courses in the new wine, or whatever, are still going to LEAD the same 'ole twi way because that's all they know.
I mean, I don't think they wake up one morning and say, gee, I'm going to screw over the people in my fellowship or church today. No, they simply continue to "minister" by default--the way they were trained. True, they may not scream at people in their faces anymore because no one in an offshoot will tolerate that (should have said "few people" because some, sadly to say, still do in at least one offshot in Indy), but negative behaviors don't just go away. They have to be replaced with alternate, healthy behaviors, as any educator on this forum knows.
So, if the only training an individual has ever had was in the way corps, then they can say, "Gee, we're diffent. We have different doctrine, " but when push comes to shove, if those replacement behaviors aren't in place, (e.g. true Christian qualities instilled and taught to them by qualified Christian ministers in a Godly school for ministers) then, their default twi behaviors will, in some areas, imho, lead them in their dealings with the flock.
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Catcup
I agree that the body of Christ as God's design is perfect. And it works perfectly when people work together, as God intended.
But when fallible human beings, who make up this body, fail to function as God designed, then there are problems galore, as addressed by Paul in Corinthians.
And I agree that imposing a man-made design upon the body of Christ that contradicts and works at counter-purposes with what God intended, only fouls up the works even further.
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mj412
what is shocking is I belong to many groups of people many different types etc... I work in customer service.
My experience in the offshoot I attended shown me more about what abuse is than twi ever did.
I never saw it in twi I was so darn blind it was even possible.
even after hearing stories and john LYnn rant about twi and all of it and seeing people fall down in life first hand I denied it all and went with the programof believing all is good.
or will be if we just keep believing in our leaders and love one another.
then the off shoot and I could no longer deny it, my children had grown old enough to ask questions on why people would be this way or why is this or that. it struck a chord in me deep and I HONESTLY started looking at what I was looking at.
and people can cry redemption all they want (we all do) and pity the poor fool who learned but is so much better now. Im not it hell yeah !
I do not know your church but I hear your attitude of not welcoming anyone who would disagree or question loud and clear, and blaming it on what exactly? my person. But yet scream for the forgivness and redemption for anyone I may ask or doubt, that you feel is fit enough.
here is the bottom line sexual preditors reign in groups such as called christian because of the idea.. such as you spew. for a reason. they can . because they are nice christian folks who asks for forgivness and "needs" christ and guess what they walk in just as forgivin in their mind as everyone elses pompus I belong and really care about YOU and the past is the past and lets not ruin another MINISTRY for God.
no one is capable of ruining Gods ministry . He aint that small .only small minded close knit people claiming some superiour being hood in the name of Christ and needing to clean the flock and keep those who agree and "will stand" with them need apply.
what does that mean exactly "stand with" to me I hear cover each other foot when the going gets rough and to any outsiders question your authority.
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dizzydog
MJ,
Do you want to respond specifically to what I wrote or is this just going to be another exploration of the thoughts you have as you read the posts?
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mj412
what do you want me to say specifically dizzydog?
I was referring to your posts, and what you said. I do not do the quotes thing, I figure you may have enough brain to figure it out.
and yes it is an exploration of my thoughts as well.
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dizzydog
I'm not going to respond to your assumptions about me.
If you want to be specific about what I said I will respond to that, otherwise we'll have a short conversation.
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mj412
ok I will go slower for ya.
what do you mean when you say "stand together" specificly?
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dizzydog
Is this the quote you were referring to?
“What’s wrong with a group who loves each other, stands with each other, shares the scriptures with one another and attempts in their own limited way to stand together in Christ?â€
One way they stand with each other is in prayers. Another is in caring for each other in the hospital or caring for the family of one who is infirm. Standing by someone when life has challenged him or her. Caring for a brother who lost a job, wife or family member. Having finances available for someone down and out or suddenly having financial troubles. Sometimes it’s nothing more than sharing the scriptures with each other. The point is we don’t give up on each other. We don’t bite and devour one another as once might have happened.
It’s all part of standing by someone you care for. Call it what you will, fellowship, being a caring brother in Christ. The term isn’t nearly as important as the actions.
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excathedra
i agree with so much of what you say, mj
--
it's hard not to focus on "a people" when the old man (of god) gets you wasted and gets on top of you--
tommy litwin, beautiful words
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Linda Z
Catcup said:
I know what you're saying, Catcup, but I would contend that it always works perfectly. I believe it's above and beyond the reach of any man's meddling with it, messing it up, causing it not to work.
I think this is one thing VP got right doctrinally, if not in practice: that the Body of Christ is perfect and eternal. To say that anything we can do can make it work improperly is, to me, like saying I can reach up into the night sky and move the moon over a few hundred miles.
God's in charge of the Body of Christ. He puts it together according to His plan and it will stay together throughout eternity. It's just not something we can see the perfection in by looking at men.
I believe God makes no mistakes when He places members in the Body as it pleases Him. I don't think the Body of Christ is something you can "see in action" like VP taught. I think we can be aware of it deep inside, spiritually, but those are just glimpses.
Sorry, I don't want to get this thread sent to the Doctrinal forum, but this subject is near to my heart. And Litwin, I enjoyed your earlier post on this subject.
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justloafing
Linda I can agree with what you say in a lot of things. I also believe the higher ups at twi did not and do not give a crap about God. It is all for them, nothing else.
If a man or women really wants to lead Gods people and try to do the right thing I can see a household in a loose sence of the word. God does have the whole household.
If a leader does make a mistake and wants to make it right with God and the people the leader can.
The problem with twi they were making mistakes all over the place and could give a crap about it. It was and is all about money and some perverts.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think maybe one of the main problems is when people form organizations that purport to speak on God's behalf. The way corps claimed to be experts on "spiritual awareness", when in fact nothing could have been further from the truth.
I have nothing against churches as long as they are not confused with the spiritual body of Christ. I agree with Linda in regards to the perfection of that spiritual body...too many folks see the impressive building, the numbers of people, the slick talking preacher, and all their programs and assets and then replace the spiritual reality of the one body with their particular religious group.
I have this notion that a person must first come to the Lord and develope a relationship with Him...build your faith within yourself, without it being filtered through other people first...and then enjoy the fellowship of others who share your faith. Men and organizations seem all to eager to claim spiritual authority and oftentimes hinder a person's spiritual life.
Didn't Paul spend something like 13 years by himself, before he began his traveling and preaching?
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TOMMYZ
Dizzy, I like your definition of "standing together". That's why I've stuck with the offshoot I'm in. We've known each other since TWI ( left in the '89 exodus ) and we've stuck with each other through good times and bad. What you've described is "the family of God" in action.
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Catcup
Linda, with all due respect, while I agree that God's design of the Body of Christ is absolutely perfect, if it always worked perfectly and was beyond the reach of any man's messing with it, Paul would have not needed to write I Corinthians, especially the latter verses of chapter 12 where Paul instructs on the necessity of each and every member in the body.
For the body to work as God designed, people must be willing to work together as God designed them to. And that is up to each individual in each particular congregation. God won't force people to work together. If they don't want to, they injure each other and thwart God's purposes.
Where the members work together as God designed, everyone is supplied and nourished, and God is allowed to work among his people to care for them and reach out to the world.
Where members do not work together as God designed, supply and nourishment is sporadic, members are constantly injuring each other, and God is limited as to what He can do within that particular group of people.
Each Christian, and each and every group of born again Christians, is part of the body of Christ. TWI is part of the Body of Christ. However in their case, they abuse and mutilate each other and cut each other out of the fellowship, the exact things that Corinthians was written to address within the body of Christ. That is just part of what accounts for the "spotty" results and inconsistent experiences of people involved with TWI.
Every born again person is a member of the Body of Christ, and every group of believers help make up the entire body. Where people work together as God intended, the body works as designed and the needs get met among that group. Where there is envy and strife, jealousy and hatred, confusion and corruption, you have the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of thee." That is what The Way International has done. It is against God's design. That is what keeps God from meeting all the needs within that group of people.
TWI wants to teach that the body is only made up of the most mature believers, the most knowlegable believers, the ones who walk perfectly, and they are the only true body, and God works primarily through their ministry.
This error ignores the fact (among others) that while all Christians are at various stages of maturity in their walks with God, each believer can have a full fellowship with God and God can work through them no matter how much or how little they "know," and how old or how young they are in Christ. It's a matter of heart and willingness, not simply knowledge or spiritual maturity.
But enough. This is probably something better addressed in the doctrinal forum. I've started a thread there for the purpose of that discussion, for anyone who wants to kick around ideas, questions, and thoughts on it.
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mj412
WHAT THAT DESCRIBES TO ME IS FRIENDS WHO LIKE COMMON THINGS AND DO NOT CARE FOR CHANGE OR TO RIDE OUT OF THEIR COMFORT ZONE.
i REALLY CAN NOT DESCRIBE THE DIFFERENCE OF THE VERSE OF NOT NEEDING THE APPROVAL OF MEN. I stand with Christ for fellowship I seek the approval of God. YOu would be surprized at the number of good loving folks on this trip with me! perfect strangers even, with the peaceful smile standing with me and I got a witness in the inner being of just being a Holy people for God , it is spiritual . and it is real and it is the best love God ever made.
GOD IS SO MUCH LARGER BIGGER SWEETER.
YEAH i HAD A GROUP LIKE THAT AND WHEN i WANTED TO PRAY FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT IN AGREEMENT OR DO SOMETHING THE GROUP WAS CONVINCED WAS WRONG i FELT PRESSURE TO BE LOVED BY THEM , I FELT i SHOULD DO THE RIGHT THING EVEN THO IT WAS WRONG FOR ME. oops sorry for caps .
I didnt have any other people to go to like the ones God has sent to let me know the truth I needed to hear. or to speak.
and it often works out with these tight knit "friends"just beautiful cause ya got the comfort of the group to say it is right and good and they agree, powerful even.
BUT my life demanded I walk away sometimes to check out who I am, who Christ is in my life , and why why I am who I am and why Im living in general.
I live in freedom if I moved to Africa my friends would be there with me friends I have never met before friends I can trust friends God has provided and who need me and I need them. On the trip to heaven with me with the LORDQ
that is why IM a christian I just cant get away from how fabulous Gods family is!!!!
but this my old friends every wednesday agreeing with me and loving me just the way I am after all these years.. isnt it.
hell NO Knowing Jesus has been alot of CHANGE and moving and shaking in this wild life of trusting God! where ever and who ever IM with.
love will be there cause Jesus is there. with me.
Jesus christ has been my oldest and longest and by far the best friend I have ever had, the worst times I have ever had in my life is waking up to realize I let HIM down I did Him wrong I lied to cover for someone I thought loved me more or could give me something and He couldnt.. I barely get over those days for the shame of knowing HIM and realizing I am still in NEED of His lordship in my life.
this entire world every single thing children cats house car and nice neighborhood job and someone liking me or loving me takes a far second place to what He may need or want me to do in life.
why because His father GAVE me life! and knows what I need to do to really live it. and I know beyond a doubt He loves me best of all and He can get the job done. in fact He already has and I owe him my own.
or I just go to billy bob house on wednesday and find out from my friends they still love me and I am ok and they are ok and God loves us all. and call it a life servicing the Lord and feel good about myself.
yeah plenty to do it that way, for me every since I got pushed off the cliff I kind of like life on the edge of not knowing of not being comfortable of seeking what today will bring as anadventure, as a prize from the LORD>
if those I know and love are with me it is a nice reward but just know the Lord is with me is always enough for me to be happy.
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Catcup
MJ
If I were you, I wouldn't change a thing.
I believe God is big enough to understand where each of us is on life's journey, and to be patient enough with each of us and help us along the path.
When it gets down to it, it is an individual walk, whether we are in a group or not in one at all.
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Tom
Shortly after we started our fellowship "back in the day"
:)-->, we had over 30 people coming, & I always knew how everyone was doing - sure we talked and communicated about it, but it was more than that - I had a spiritual sense of what was happening - who was ministering to whom - the "joints and bands" ministering nourishment.
And it just wasn't me. I remember we (the "branch") were accused of not following the Way Tree (well, we weren't, but at the time I didn't realize how the rigid Way Tree, by design, cuts across lines of ministering set up by God). I spoke to the "branch leader" and others about it, & we all always had that spiritual sense of how things were going throughout the area - a cranking area with a solid year of back to back film classes (over 30 students - if you want to use that as a measure of growth). It was a most desired spiritual grasp on what was happening in our section of the body of Christ that those "following" the Way Tree didn't have.
Perhaps, Linda (thanks for the kind words), that was the "aware[ness] of it deep inside, spiritually, but those are just glimpses" that you were talking about. It was just a glimpse of the glory, but even that glimpse was supremely effective practically.
I think, as you indicated, Linda, VP had it right when he said that all growth that happens in the Body of Christ is spiritual.
I think the history of the growth of the Body of Christ is a history of growth outside the organizations born of men, or if it happens inside an organization born of men, it happens in spite of the organization.
Like the fruit of the spirit, there is no law against it.
In that sense, it can't be touched - GOd is always on top of the show, has the broad view, and makes everything work together for good to those who love Him.
On the other hand, on a very practical sense, the things that men, Christian men, do that are carnal, works that are wood, hay, & stubble that men try to build on the foundation of Christ; although, they don't utimately adulterate the Body of Christ - because they are in a sense burned at the point of entry into the glory of the bema, do, in the meanwhile, in this present age, serve to hinder the purposes of God, and divide the body in a real sense. Sorry for the long sentence; I haven't the time to correct it.
So, Linda, & Catcup, I think you are both correct.
Tom
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Linda Z
Tom, I think so too...just different planes, so to speak.
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Catcup
Agreed!
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Nottawayfer
Oh my gosh Catcup! I have been trying to figure this out exactly, and the way you said this hits the nail right smack on the head. Thanks!
It's weird because I started to think of this when I was still in. The whole explanation of the Body of Christ according to twi seemed so tainted and off. I just couldn't explain it. I think it was because they said one thing and did another. If you point blank asked a wayfer if the average Joe Christian was part of the Body, they would say of course. But their actions never lined up with their words. This was a very twisted doctrine in twi.
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personalentertainr
I always enjoyed fellowship and the connection with people based on a standard (even though many times there was a double standard in the ministry). So, after listening to radio hackers try and teach "psychology today" from the four Gospels, I went back and started a Romans 100 club.
In first year of the 10th Corps {1979-80}, Dr. was teaching Romans 8-16 to the Corps. Someone got the bright idea to read Romans 100 times. During the 1st month they taught speed weeding, so it seemed possible. Sure enough, someone hit the 100th mark around the end of October. I doubt he understood it, if he was speed reading.
I only have a handful of "members" in the club. And to avoid duplicating the ministry, I keep pretty close to Bullinger's stuff. It's informative and to the point. It allows for people to email me or one another with questions or comments and there isn't any real contact with each other.
The feed back had been wonderful. I write about 2 pages on MS Word and copy it over to email. This allows them to see a concise, to the point teaching that will allow them to get their noses out of the Gospels and into the Epistles.
just email romans100club@yahoo.com
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Outin88!
I'm not involved with any offshoots but I have checked out four.
For my wife and I, two offshoots (CES and LMCI)were like a "halfway house" to "un-waybrain"!
One thing that helped me with these groups was the correction of erroneous TWI doctrines and practices. There were some similarities to TWI in these groups but there were also many differences.
Anyone still engrossed in waybrain or not sure what TWI doctrines are right or wrong, imo would benefit from hearing some teachings from these groups which have attempted to correct some erroneous TWI doctrine.
CES has something like 25 doctrinal differences then what Wierwille taught and LMCI teaches almost everything differently.
Even if you don't buy into the all the offshoots doctrines (I don't), it may help you to think about what TWI may have taught and practiced wrongly. It did for me.
I've also checked out two other offshoots, (CFF and Geers group) but I didn't spend too much time with either since both appeared too similar to TWI for my taste.
The folks involved with CFF were really nice and very loving. The folks in Geers group were judgemental and were not that loving unless you agreed 100% with them.
I haven't been involved with any of these offshoots in years so it's possible they may have changed since the last time I hung out with any of them.
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Nottawayfer
I tried CES. It was wayyy too weird for me. Then I called up W*yne Cl*pp. He didn't have any CFF fellowships in San Diego, but he referred me to a Geerite group. I went and was gagged by the VP and Uncle Harry worship. People there said they never thought of themselves as "leaving the ministry". They couldn't even understand from where I was coming, nor did they seem to care. I never went to another offshoot. I decided then that I needed to find a church that I could be happy with, and I certainly did.
BTW, I did chat one night here at GSC with a young man involved with a CFF group, and I was impressed with his outlook on other groups than the one he was involved with. He didn't have an elitist nor Wierwille worshipping attitude. He actually acknowledged that there were other groups who do great things for God other than they do. That is a big step IMHO.
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Tom
I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but I would think from your comments that your training in speed reading never clicked in. I would guess it didn't for the vast majority of Corps who were trained in it, but IMO the Corps training in speed reading was based on sound practice, but one would have to have practiced the speed reading training exercises consistently for a while for the benefit to finally "kick in."
I know the theory behind why speed reading works is controversial; as a matter of fact, whether it even works or not and how much those who speed read actually comprehend is debated among those in the field of reading, but, as far as I'm concerned, if it is done right, it works.
The reasons for slow reading and lack of comprehension that were taught are valid, I believe, and speed reading done properly overcomes those reasons for slow reading and lack of comprehension.
I took speed reading in the Way Corps three times, and it wasn't until the third time that it worked for me. Maybe I'm a slow learner of fast reading
:)--> - just kidding. Actually, I think the Way Corps didn't apply enough training time to it for it to work for most.
I just finished a year of teaching intensive reading to high school students who scored in the bottom 1/4th of their classes in reading, & I had appreciably better results as measured on state standardized reading tests than all of the other - maybe ten or so - reading teachers in the high school. I use the speed reading principles taught in the WC in my classes. Although I also don't give them enough "training" for the speed reading to "kick in," I teach it, and I utilize the speed reading principles in our reading practice throughout the year here & there.
Anyway, there are a lot of other principles I use (with which those principles we were taught actually integrate well), and I'm not saying that speed reading is the magic bullet. But reading is a field I spend a lot of time in - both teaching and measuring tons of data to determine effectively the results of my teaching practices. Poor reading comprehension is a big problem in our country and in our schools, and again, IMO, there are too many mothers and fathers on this website to summarily dismiss the effectiveness of speed reading, especially when taught in conjunction with other principles fostering reading comprehension.
Okay, just something I'm involved with that I think is important - I'll shut up now about it
:)-->.
Tom
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