Dizzy Dog.. summed things up beautifully,also another thing I noticed too was a lot of selfishness that comes through,a lot of focus on me,me,me.Sheesh, no wonder some 'struggle' to get over things.
Also, a lot of "well I would like to hear a lot more recognition given to Bullinger, Stiles etc.. in the offshoots ! my reply is "how the sweet Jesus would you know when you don't even go along and have a look-see !!Stand on the side lines and tear down.
Prophetic churches ? Been there, experienced a few.What a bunch of phooey,always the same stuff "you are going to be a great warrior for the lord, you are going to preach to thousands etcc..Didn't someone once preach that God is big enough to tell you something first ! That still holds true.Very thankful for that and MANY other doctrinal truths learnt whilst in.
maybe it is because some feel that is what they paid a heavy price in life with.
It all started with a bible class and some one claiming to care enough to give you the pfal class.. then..
hence grease spot.
I do not think it is as simple as you claim it to be. Look at truth and spirit and what they offfer it is so close to twi now they barely need to change the name.
is it ok? yeah quite a few that post on GS thought it was ok for many years, until...
and that is why they get "IMpunged". I am guessing that means being critical.
the price some paid needs to be told. why? I honestly think it is so no one els has to pay it by joining whatappears to be a loving harmless enough group that teaches bible..
I think I want to ask why not?
why would it bother anyone if they are happy campers to hear what another may have had to go through in the same type of group as a negative ?
unless it is to recue someone from hearing the truth, that differs from what they have been taught or believe.
and that is what a co-dependent does best . Rescue OR/and be critical of anyone who cant chose to go along with the program that works for them and their group.
"well I would like to hear a lot more recognition given to Bullinger, Stiles etc.. in the offshoots ! my reply is "how the sweet Jesus would you know when you don't even go along and have a look-see !!
Well, I have.
But that was not even quite a suggestion, just a point. Some establish their heritage based on what they think they were taught by veepee- fine by me if that's what they want to do, but the body of doctrine they embrace was developed by a more than a handful of other people.
Why continue the plagiarism, when you can have a fresh new start?
But I am not trying to paint them all with the same brush either. J*hn L*nn's organization- disagree with them doctrinally, practically, or not, one thing I think could be said- they are VERY meticulous about where they get their material from. They document thoroughly.
That's the impression I get from some of the stuff I have seen coming out of that organization.
They still think they carried a gold mine of goodness out of der vey though..
wondering about what happened and what’s currently happening in The Way international.
I don't wonder. No need to- there really is nothing to wonder about. Nothing new, same boring, drab, lifeless stuff. Hasn't changed in years.
Same methods of bait and switch, same abuse and intimidation, same stupid doctrine- perhaps more legalistic and controlling than their forefather, but nothing really new, at all.
Same programs, different names. Just worse than the ones they had before.
They NEED to change, and in a major way, and don't even know it.
I would LIKE to see something NEW come out of that organization. Something good for a change.
But I'm not holding my breath.
I'll admit though, it is amusing every once in a while to watch them try to ressurect their boring, drab, lifeless stuff that hasn't changed in years into some kind of new light..
Kind of the philosophy of build a better mouse trap and they will come.. but the people of the world refuse to come flocking to their door. Wonder why..
Three vice prezzes instead of one- whoopie. Just another vain effort to "revitalize" their sad, sad religion. Big stinking deal. But its amusing. They really think this little move is gonna breath some fresh breath of life into that hopelessly dead carcass.
I think the people that HAVE changed are here- and other places outside of that pathetic existence.
I think its more of like carrying around a forty pound club, patrolling an evil, pathetic, abusive thieving, lieing, cheating and stealing prairie dog town, just waiting for one of the lousy SOB's to stick its head up and promote just one bit more of their stinking, lifeless, useless, and actually harmful poison to the unwary good prairie dogs on the other hill.
Hey, I know its not the dream job of a lifetime, but somebody has to do it..
Viceral hatred is just going a little bit too far. Maybe just a LITTLE bit.
Didn't someone once preach that God is big enough to tell you something first ! That still holds true.Very thankful for that and MANY other doctrinal truths learnt whilst in.
Sure I'm "thankful"- but this deep truth, good grief- its simple enough for a pre-schooler to understand. Not that that's a bad thing though.
Says a great deal about the intellect of current leadership. They can't even get that one right.
they will rarely turn that same microscope on themselves and admit what they might have done to hurt someone else.
On a more serious side, this has actually been the most painful for me. No joke. Some crap I have corrected. Some I have been able to apologize for. Some, I may never get over, or get it fixed.
[They need someone with enough love, balls, and an iron stomach to go in and clean the place out. A real takeover, a real coup.
Men don't put new wine into old wineskins for the wineskins will break, and the wine run out, but they put new wine into new wineskins, and both the wineskins and the wine are preserved.
There is an organization - the only organization - that has neither negative nor downside. It is the body of Christ.
All organizations designed by men, or in which humans participate, have the possibility of error, because they are designed by or led by or made up of imperfect human beings.
If you don't believe that the body of Christ is included in that scenario, and is susceptible to a down side, you need to read Corinthians again.
Corinthians was written partly to reprove those who were followers of men, and were cutting one another out of the fellowship, maiming the Body of Christ: "And they eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee.."
This is exactly what the Corinthians were doing. See I Cor. 1:10-12, and 12:15ff. This is exactly what The Way International practices. They reverence men, lauding that person's abilities, contradict their own doctrine in their practice of leadership infallibility, and cut one another out of the fellowship.
Anyone who attributes infallibility to another human being, to an organization of any kind made up of humans, or is a human who presents himself as infallible, has fools for idols and followers.
Most of us here have been there, and do not desire to repeat the experience.
the price some paid needs to be told. why? I honestly think it is so no one els has to pay it by joining whatappears to be a loving harmless enough group that teaches bible..
You assume that all involved in all such groups are completely ignorant of what caused so many problems in The Way. You further assume that the folks in these "groups" have evil intentions. You also assume that all in such groups haven’t taken any steps to correct these bad behaviors and more specifically bad doctrine from The Way. These groups are as varied as religion itself, you shouldn’t paint with such a broad brush. There are plenty of these groups that do no harm.
It would seem that anyone who continues to fellowship together who also might have had a similar background with The Way shouldn’t be together in your world. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote before you continue to reply.
You ask:
“Why would it bother anyone if they are happy campers to hear what another may have had to go through in the same type of group as a negative?â€
For one – Who are you to determine if the group is the “same type� The people involved in the “group†may have worked very hard to correct the problems they saw in The Way. And along comes some busybody who has no clue what these folks have done to correct the very things you comment on. These folks may have worked very hard to remove themselves from the identity of The Way, in some cases getting additional training in the scriptures from sources other than Way based material and education. And along comes some old burned out PFAL grad with an agenda who simply looks at nametags and recognizes an old identity from way days and all of sudden their "group" is under the inquisition. I’ve seen it happen and it’s a crying shame.
For all the rhetoric on this site about moving on from the bad experiences in The Way it’s remarkable that you are so unwilling to give the benefit of a doubt to those who actually may have done so. As I said perhaps one of these groups isn’t for you, your choice, God Bless. But if you want to bring a bunch of venom that has no current relevance to my church - please stay away.
The Way. And along comes some busybody who has no clue what these folks have done to correct the very things you comment on. These folks may have worked very hard to remove themselves from the identity of The Way, in some cases getting additional training in the scriptures from sources other than Way based material and education.
Good for them. Glad to see something good happen.
One thing though- if they were involved in Der Vey as an abusive leader in the past, I think they need to recognize that those effects of said actions are not going to go away. Like it or not.
You screw enough people over, and thereby ruin your reputation- those kind of things are not going to go away. I don't think its people spewing venom, its just life.
There is an organization - the only organization - that has neither negative nor downside. It is the body of Christ.
All organizations designed by men, or in which humans participate, have the possibility of error, because they are designed by or led by or made up of imperfect human beings.
If you don't believe that the body of Christ is included in that scenario, and is susceptible to a down side, you need to read Corinthians again.
I'm afraid your missing my point, Catcup. No doubt all those things are true. I don't need to read Corinthians again to see that; I said as much in a subsequent post,
quote:
Da Verd says concerning those who profess that their origin & presence in the Word is of men in 1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Ya'd think in depth Biblical Research people would be able to get that far. It's in your basic concordance under "envy," "strife," and "carnal."
I wasn't talking about an organization "designed by men" or "designed by...imperfect human beings." No doubt being "led by or made up of imperfect human beings" brings "the possibility of error" into the body of Christ.
Again, I wasn't talking about an organization "designed by men." I was talking about the perfect design and operation of the body of Christ that is "not an organization of [by the design or origin of] man." I was talking about "the increase of God" in the body, the "knit[ing] together" within the body that comes with the "increase of God," the "joints and bands" within that body of Christ through which we have "nourishment ministered," which is the knitting together that comes "with the increase of God." I was talking about the fit joining together and compacting of "the whole body" that is the organization that comes only "from Christ" and not from or of man "according to the effectual working in the measure of every part," as the design of God, not man, "makes its own increase unto the edifying of itself in love."
I don't see any error in that design yet; although, I see people involved. I do see great intricacy in the design and great practical "effectual working."
The simple point - which can't be seen if people are caught in error, division, envy, I'm of so & so, etc. - is that "in Christ we [all of us working together] are complete." Of course, when people get involved, there is going to be imperfection, but why start out screwing with the perfect design of the thing, by imposing a design of man upon it by way of a Way Tree, or an incorporation as if God's design isn't good enough? Yeah, we give lip service to the idea that we are complete in him, but in practice we think we need something else to operate in the "real" world because we are not "really" complete.
IMO, when TWI pulled its power play on revival that was happening with the free movement of the Word in areas, they did so by the imposition of the organization of TWI starting with the Way Tree, an organization of (designed by man) that was antithetical to the godly design of the joints and bands that God was energizing in the body of Christ among admittedly imperfect people with great godly results.
To whatever degree offshoots (or whatever term applies agreeably) have remedied things that were wrong with TWI...)
I'm just saying why come out of the gate with an organization of man similar to the Way Tree, by doctrine, hamstringing God's working in the body of Christ. That's what I'm referring to when I'm talking about an old wine skin into which people don't put new wine - it can't hold it.
Perhaps some offshoots have not organized themselves that way - I'll drink new wine to that.
Organization isn't the point; people aren't the point either, an identity in Christ is. Tom's point to the body of Christ is a good one.
In fact the more we recognize how utterly lost we were without Christ and just how far God went to save us the more we realize that it isn't about the organization, or men or our past it's about Christ.
I don't know that there is anything inherently spiritual or good to an organization, or anything inherently evil about an organization either. It's just a group of people, all of them very flawed. The thing thats inherently evil is the world around us. Should we choose to fellowship with one another we should recognize these truths first and foremost. That Christ is the key to the whole thing. Everything else is just a meeting in a hotel room or living room or tent. The organization had no power, something missed by many. Once Christ is relegated to second fiddle then the whole thing unravels, if it was ever truly knitted to begin with.
Far too many people have a focus on other people, that's the problem we had with The Way, and it's still the same problem. You focus on me and I'd give you about 5 minutes before you started finding many things I'm none to proud of. But if we both want to learn Christ then we've got something to look at and fellowship together about.
We all needed Christ. We were all dead in trespasses and sins, none more than any other.
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waterbuffalo
Ha,ha, Belle. I know! Heck, let's just makeup our own definitions, why not?
Ok, my definition of an offshoot is that ex-twi run the group or church.
What's yours?
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Allan
Dizzy Dog.. summed things up beautifully,also another thing I noticed too was a lot of selfishness that comes through,a lot of focus on me,me,me.Sheesh, no wonder some 'struggle' to get over things.
Also, a lot of "well I would like to hear a lot more recognition given to Bullinger, Stiles etc.. in the offshoots ! my reply is "how the sweet Jesus would you know when you don't even go along and have a look-see !!Stand on the side lines and tear down.
Prophetic churches ? Been there, experienced a few.What a bunch of phooey,always the same stuff "you are going to be a great warrior for the lord, you are going to preach to thousands etcc..Didn't someone once preach that God is big enough to tell you something first ! That still holds true.Very thankful for that and MANY other doctrinal truths learnt whilst in.
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mj412
impunged?
maybe it is because some feel that is what they paid a heavy price in life with.
It all started with a bible class and some one claiming to care enough to give you the pfal class.. then..
hence grease spot.
I do not think it is as simple as you claim it to be. Look at truth and spirit and what they offfer it is so close to twi now they barely need to change the name.
is it ok? yeah quite a few that post on GS thought it was ok for many years, until...
and that is why they get "IMpunged". I am guessing that means being critical.
the price some paid needs to be told. why? I honestly think it is so no one els has to pay it by joining whatappears to be a loving harmless enough group that teaches bible..
I think I want to ask why not?
why would it bother anyone if they are happy campers to hear what another may have had to go through in the same type of group as a negative ?
unless it is to recue someone from hearing the truth, that differs from what they have been taught or believe.
and that is what a co-dependent does best . Rescue OR/and be critical of anyone who cant chose to go along with the program that works for them and their group.
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Tom
They need a true/false format, "I'm holding up some fingers; true or false?"
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Ham
Well, I have.
But that was not even quite a suggestion, just a point. Some establish their heritage based on what they think they were taught by veepee- fine by me if that's what they want to do, but the body of doctrine they embrace was developed by a more than a handful of other people.
Why continue the plagiarism, when you can have a fresh new start?
Not a criticism, just a point.
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Ham
But I am not trying to paint them all with the same brush either. J*hn L*nn's organization- disagree with them doctrinally, practically, or not, one thing I think could be said- they are VERY meticulous about where they get their material from. They document thoroughly.
That's the impression I get from some of the stuff I have seen coming out of that organization.
They still think they carried a gold mine of goodness out of der vey though..
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Ham
I don't wonder. No need to- there really is nothing to wonder about. Nothing new, same boring, drab, lifeless stuff. Hasn't changed in years.
Same methods of bait and switch, same abuse and intimidation, same stupid doctrine- perhaps more legalistic and controlling than their forefather, but nothing really new, at all.
Same programs, different names. Just worse than the ones they had before.
They NEED to change, and in a major way, and don't even know it.
I would LIKE to see something NEW come out of that organization. Something good for a change.
But I'm not holding my breath.
I'll admit though, it is amusing every once in a while to watch them try to ressurect their boring, drab, lifeless stuff that hasn't changed in years into some kind of new light..
Kind of the philosophy of build a better mouse trap and they will come.. but the people of the world refuse to come flocking to their door. Wonder why..
Three vice prezzes instead of one- whoopie. Just another vain effort to "revitalize" their sad, sad religion. Big stinking deal. But its amusing. They really think this little move is gonna breath some fresh breath of life into that hopelessly dead carcass.
I think the people that HAVE changed are here- and other places outside of that pathetic existence.
Even in the offshoots.
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Ham
Not true for all here. Some actually hold a glimmering of hope that the lousy SOB's will finally wake up someday and do something right..
So far it has been not so many- a couple of high leadership "defected" but that's about it.
They need someone with enough love, balls, and an iron stomach to go in and clean the place out. A real takeover, a real coup.
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Ham
Don't entirely agree, maybe partly.
I think its more of like carrying around a forty pound club, patrolling an evil, pathetic, abusive thieving, lieing, cheating and stealing prairie dog town, just waiting for one of the lousy SOB's to stick its head up and promote just one bit more of their stinking, lifeless, useless, and actually harmful poison to the unwary good prairie dogs on the other hill.
Hey, I know its not the dream job of a lifetime, but somebody has to do it..
Viceral hatred is just going a little bit too far. Maybe just a LITTLE bit.
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Ham
Sure I'm "thankful"- but this deep truth, good grief- its simple enough for a pre-schooler to understand. Not that that's a bad thing though.
Says a great deal about the intellect of current leadership. They can't even get that one right.
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Ham
Let me assure you sir, I know my finger, and it is hardly "bony"
:)-->
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Ham
On a more serious side, this has actually been the most painful for me. No joke. Some crap I have corrected. Some I have been able to apologize for. Some, I may never get over, or get it fixed.
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excathedra
still reading
hey dear litwin, how do i join ?Link to comment
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Ham
It is hard to wake up someday, and discover what a grade A, unmitigated, foot that you have become.. it happened to me.
I was an foot in training. And I was learning it- from the best. I could be pretty good at it.. even "professional" about it at times.
Maybe that's why I can spot one a mile away now.
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mj412
IM thankful and I even told God I will forever know He is real and loves me if He got me out of the mess twi had made of my life.
they marked me when I needed friends and help the most to shut me up about a criminal in their leadership.
it probably saved my life. and IM am thankful to God.
the other thing is Jesus says HE is the teacher and we need no man to tell us what the Holy spirit will lead us into which is truth.
I tired of giving men glory for what God does.
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Tom
Men don't put new wine into old wineskins for the wineskins will break, and the wine run out, but they put new wine into new wineskins, and both the wineskins and the wine are preserved.
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Tom
My dear ex, you are forever joined.
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Catcup
All organizations designed by men, or in which humans participate, have the possibility of error, because they are designed by or led by or made up of imperfect human beings.
If you don't believe that the body of Christ is included in that scenario, and is susceptible to a down side, you need to read Corinthians again.
Corinthians was written partly to reprove those who were followers of men, and were cutting one another out of the fellowship, maiming the Body of Christ: "And they eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee.."
This is exactly what the Corinthians were doing. See I Cor. 1:10-12, and 12:15ff. This is exactly what The Way International practices. They reverence men, lauding that person's abilities, contradict their own doctrine in their practice of leadership infallibility, and cut one another out of the fellowship.
Anyone who attributes infallibility to another human being, to an organization of any kind made up of humans, or is a human who presents himself as infallible, has fools for idols and followers.
Most of us here have been there, and do not desire to repeat the experience.
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dizzydog
MJ,
You wrote:
You assume that all involved in all such groups are completely ignorant of what caused so many problems in The Way. You further assume that the folks in these "groups" have evil intentions. You also assume that all in such groups haven’t taken any steps to correct these bad behaviors and more specifically bad doctrine from The Way. These groups are as varied as religion itself, you shouldn’t paint with such a broad brush. There are plenty of these groups that do no harm.
It would seem that anyone who continues to fellowship together who also might have had a similar background with The Way shouldn’t be together in your world. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote before you continue to reply.
You ask:
“Why would it bother anyone if they are happy campers to hear what another may have had to go through in the same type of group as a negative?â€
For one – Who are you to determine if the group is the “same type� The people involved in the “group†may have worked very hard to correct the problems they saw in The Way. And along comes some busybody who has no clue what these folks have done to correct the very things you comment on. These folks may have worked very hard to remove themselves from the identity of The Way, in some cases getting additional training in the scriptures from sources other than Way based material and education. And along comes some old burned out PFAL grad with an agenda who simply looks at nametags and recognizes an old identity from way days and all of sudden their "group" is under the inquisition. I’ve seen it happen and it’s a crying shame.
For all the rhetoric on this site about moving on from the bad experiences in The Way it’s remarkable that you are so unwilling to give the benefit of a doubt to those who actually may have done so. As I said perhaps one of these groups isn’t for you, your choice, God Bless. But if you want to bring a bunch of venom that has no current relevance to my church - please stay away.
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Ham
Good for them. Glad to see something good happen.
One thing though- if they were involved in Der Vey as an abusive leader in the past, I think they need to recognize that those effects of said actions are not going to go away. Like it or not.
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Ham
You screw enough people over, and thereby ruin your reputation- those kind of things are not going to go away. I don't think its people spewing venom, its just life.
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dizzydog
whatever...
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Tom
I'm afraid your missing my point, Catcup. No doubt all those things are true. I don't need to read Corinthians again to see that; I said as much in a subsequent post,
I wasn't talking about an organization "designed by men" or "designed by...imperfect human beings." No doubt being "led by or made up of imperfect human beings" brings "the possibility of error" into the body of Christ.
Again, I wasn't talking about an organization "designed by men." I was talking about the perfect design and operation of the body of Christ that is "not an organization of [by the design or origin of] man." I was talking about "the increase of God" in the body, the "knit[ing] together" within the body that comes with the "increase of God," the "joints and bands" within that body of Christ through which we have "nourishment ministered," which is the knitting together that comes "with the increase of God." I was talking about the fit joining together and compacting of "the whole body" that is the organization that comes only "from Christ" and not from or of man "according to the effectual working in the measure of every part," as the design of God, not man, "makes its own increase unto the edifying of itself in love."
I don't see any error in that design yet; although, I see people involved. I do see great intricacy in the design and great practical "effectual working."
The simple point - which can't be seen if people are caught in error, division, envy, I'm of so & so, etc. - is that "in Christ we [all of us working together] are complete." Of course, when people get involved, there is going to be imperfection, but why start out screwing with the perfect design of the thing, by imposing a design of man upon it by way of a Way Tree, or an incorporation as if God's design isn't good enough? Yeah, we give lip service to the idea that we are complete in him, but in practice we think we need something else to operate in the "real" world because we are not "really" complete.
IMO, when TWI pulled its power play on revival that was happening with the free movement of the Word in areas, they did so by the imposition of the organization of TWI starting with the Way Tree, an organization of (designed by man) that was antithetical to the godly design of the joints and bands that God was energizing in the body of Christ among admittedly imperfect people with great godly results.
To whatever degree offshoots (or whatever term applies agreeably) have remedied things that were wrong with TWI...)
I'm just saying why come out of the gate with an organization of man similar to the Way Tree, by doctrine, hamstringing God's working in the body of Christ. That's what I'm referring to when I'm talking about an old wine skin into which people don't put new wine - it can't hold it.
Perhaps some offshoots have not organized themselves that way - I'll drink new wine to that.
Tom
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dizzydog
Organization isn't the point; people aren't the point either, an identity in Christ is. Tom's point to the body of Christ is a good one.
In fact the more we recognize how utterly lost we were without Christ and just how far God went to save us the more we realize that it isn't about the organization, or men or our past it's about Christ.
I don't know that there is anything inherently spiritual or good to an organization, or anything inherently evil about an organization either. It's just a group of people, all of them very flawed. The thing thats inherently evil is the world around us. Should we choose to fellowship with one another we should recognize these truths first and foremost. That Christ is the key to the whole thing. Everything else is just a meeting in a hotel room or living room or tent. The organization had no power, something missed by many. Once Christ is relegated to second fiddle then the whole thing unravels, if it was ever truly knitted to begin with.
Far too many people have a focus on other people, that's the problem we had with The Way, and it's still the same problem. You focus on me and I'd give you about 5 minutes before you started finding many things I'm none to proud of. But if we both want to learn Christ then we've got something to look at and fellowship together about.
We all needed Christ. We were all dead in trespasses and sins, none more than any other.
Like it or not.
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