When I first left twi a few of us started a home fellowship because we were just hanging in limbo it seemed. It started off much like a twig in teaching and ideas, but evolved. After a few years we went our seperate ways, some joining churches others went to more structured twi splinter groups. It was a wonderful time of love, fellowship and growth.
The Way was an offshoot of Bullinger, Stiles,Welch,and others. They were offshoots of their teachers and so on. So who was the original? Every one from Adam and Eve forward? Maybe we are not offshoots of each other maybe we are all a part of the original source? Besides isn't that Waybrain to label things and put them into neat little boxes? Hopefully we have moved on from that habit.
The Way was an offshoot of Bullinger, Stiles, Welch, and others.
Good point! Although I will have to say that there is a difference between those that broke off from a distinct group, vs. those that *borrowed the material* from others, that was the basis of their ministry.
One of these days, I hope to be an *off-shoot* of Jesus Christ, but I don't expect that to happen, until the return. :(-->
I can`t say for sure ex, as I don`t participate in any.
I think that the degree of value of each different one varies greatly.....
I know perfectly wonderfull people who enjoy fellowshipping with their splinter group....I have met wonderfull people who within a year of association with a splinter group that have become arrogant, condescending, and rude....
I know one fellow who`s marriage was destroyed by the wifes fierce adherance to the dictates of an off shoot.
I know people who have been treated even worse in the off shoots than they EVER were in twi....
I tend to think that when involved with a group as toxic as twi was..... it is wise to reevalute each and every so called truth....
If you are around folks who still think the same, believe the same/speak the same language with only minor variations....it is very difficult to recognise and distinguish the healthy belief/thought practices from the dangerous.
I used to fervently wish there was an off shoot to fellowship with in our area when we left....I pined for the old fellowship and comeradery I enjoyed in twi....the feeling of unity, I felt lost without the support of people who understood and believed as I did....
I think now though, that if I had, I would have been comfortable....enjoyed it....but I do not know if I ever would have pierced through the fog of my way brain......I would have still thought I was right...that I didn`t need to make any changes....I would have been trying and failing to make the same silly formulas and principles work that had failed for the LAST 15 years....rather than being able to honestly evaluate my mindset and belief system.
I'm with Raf. Every person who ever was a part of TWI and left, is an offshoot.
But I am assuming you define an offshoot as an actual organization formed primarily of people who used to belong to a previous organization.
I believe each one should be judged upon it's own merits. Each one is different. And, each person in the organization is different.
Every organization, no matter what it is, whether business or religion, charity or for profit, has it's positives and negatives, upsides and downsides.
Lumping them all together and pidgeonholing them doesn't sort all that out. Categorizing them all one way or another doesn't give an accurate evaluation, IMO. What they are or are not, and what they can or cannot do for an individual depends upon a lot of variables.
if twi is "bad," what makes an offspring "good"
Maybe tossing out the bad stuff and starting from scratch on those particular issues is an improvement.
is one needed for a transitional departure?
I don't believe it is absolutely necessary, depending on the individual. Some folks might benefit with one, some without it.
a lifetime ?
Not necessarily. Although some may wish to.
how does wierwille fit into the mix ?
I don't think he has to. IMO, tossing the old ideology and terminology out and starting from scratch is the best way to go.
If you do that, and begin true independent research, if what you "threw out" was actually truth, you will run across it again as truth.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is ok. Contrary to some folks' fears, the baby is too big to go down the drain, if there was one to begin with...
are they better / worse / either / neither / than a church ?
I remember John Lynn teaching once and he said someone he knew would only use TWI terminology when communicating with family. He said, "No wonder they think you're in a cult!"
Having been out of TWI for more than 10 yrs, I find that I still like to talk to others about the things of God. I worked at a warehouse and there were several other Christians who knew nothing about TWI and all I had to do was lay off the trinity and abortion and I got along with them just fine.
But I like to converse with people about ANY subject without restraints: that means less and less times where I can't speak freely. I can't speak freely with my "earthly family". The most freely I can speak is with my own family which came from me or OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE INTO THE THINGS OF GOD!!! What are my options?
1. a church
2. an "offshoot"
3. some website (oh, hey, how ya doin')
4. a street corner
5. God
God's always there, but we all need contact with other humans, don't we? So I don't have to make my choice based on how closely the doctrine is to TWI. This avoids a lot of headaches. I've been with 4 offshoots and a church. I can do whatever I want, and if any of those groups gets a little too pushy I can find the exit.
Don't know about all of them. But I think they are labelled guilty by (ex) association.
Even back in the "good old days", not every twig was a cult, either. Can't say that with much certainty now.
My opinion is anybody out of that place, who was in leadership capacity, who wants to bring "da verd to da world" so to speak, should recognize that they are going to have to live with a little bit of scrutiny, and I think rightly so.
quote:
how can you tell ?
For myself, the first time they claim superiority or some kind, or exclusive ownership of the truth, or even IMPLY it, that would be enough to make my hair stand on end. Even from something like a mission statement.
quote:
are they a stepping stone ?
Perhaps for some. Maybe some offshoots are like a spiritual methadone treatment program. "We will abuse you just a LITTLE bit so you will be more comfortable during withdrawl".
Myself, I went off of the cult business cold turkey for about a year.. I think that was the best for me. The withdrawl symptoms were not that bad..
JAL has made the statement numerous times that (and I'm paraphrasing )...he has never had a real job and he's doing the only thing he knows how to do...
Wierwille taught many things...one of the things he taught was how to build an organization that is funded by donations, providing a source of income for those who run the organization...
I dunno, ex. I'm re-evaluating everything. I think people have different needs and are at different levels of belief in TWI doctrine. I guess the answers depend on the person. :)-->
yes well I think that they make good decompression chambers for those leaving TWI.
I never went the splinter route having left TWI prior to the formation of any splinters. I've been invited to a few and heard some tapes by CES (they were just like Way tapes) but never went. I think people leaving TWI take some solace in the splinter groups because it gives them a place to hang out before they take on "real life".
Obviously some people will remain with the splinter so
for some , these splinters fill the void that TWI previously did. I cannot say that any of these splinters are "bad" because I've never spent time in any of their "fellowships" but the similarities between their stated beliefs and those of TWI are so similar that I don't want to even bother.
I know people who are strong supporters of various way splinter groups and as long as they don't bug me about coming to their "fellowships" then I don't bug them about not being able to let go of Way teachings. The only time I get bothered by people is when I see some former wayfers who think its their job to "rescue" everyone by inviting them to a splinter. "What ? You aren't attending fellowship anywhere ?". I let them know very quickly that its none of their business if and when or where I go to church and that next time they get nosey I won't be nice about it. This approach seems to work to repel advances by W
ay teaching die-hards.
this is basically why I don't socialize with former Way people because when I have it seems like people get some kind of contact high and get nostalgic about the "good ole days" and then someone wants to have a "believer's meeting" or sing some songs from the Way songbook. BLEEEECCCCHH ! Spare me the trip down memory lane.
ok I can only say this on this forum and maybe you will understand.
no one eles does.
why is it every since I joined twi and left and then an off shoot ( I call them off shoot because they have the same leaders and much of the same doctrines and much of the same practices shined up to look different and knew.)
I am not able to go to a church?
why?
heck I do not know. I think it is because I think they will teach me wrong doctrine. or the people will want to talk about something that i know isnt i even in the bible and I will have to disagree.
why. heck I do not know why but becuase I think I have the right answers and the truth on many subjects. why did I spend twenty five years learning the bible if it comes down to never being able to discuss it with anyone except in an off shoot?
About 7 years ago I attended an offshoot meeting. It was at a hotel with about 150 people there. I felt really weird...it was like going back in time. Watching the emotional responses of people, listening to the teachings, seeing so many things that reminded me of my years in twi...it was un-nerving for me. I came away from it with the notion that the people involved were like heroin addicts who were now taking methadone...
Shortly after that, I attended a church...I found a number of conflicts going on in my mind that I thought I had laid to rest. I felt like an "outsider" in the sense that I thought I knew more about the bible than any of them there...including the preacher. I had an attitude that I knew was wrong and decided to get honest with myself and deal with it. For me, the "elitist" attitude of being puffed up with knowledge was one of the last, and most difficult parts of "waybrain" for me to get rid of.
Twi "engrafted" this attitude in me...I didn't like it either...so I decided to change. Even if they were teaching things that were not contrary to twi doctrine...but were using different terminology, I felt uneasy...I kept telling myself that twi was wrong about a LOT of what they taught and started looking at the "fruit" in people's lives instead of the doctrines that they taught...I soon realized that love edifieth but knowledge puffeth up...
I continued to go to different churches until I became comfortable with the fellowship aspects...and got to see that they were also intelligent people who had some good ideas about what the bible said...Today, biblical doctrine is simply not that important to me...It took time. Today I view all Christian churches as part of the one body...Christianity is about relationships and living life...being right about specific doctrines is not that important to me anymore...but I had to work at it.
I've heard GSCafe characterized as an offshoot of sorts and it could well be though ,speaking in general, its perlious for one to assume that all here have the same attitudes and opinions about the way experience or the post way experience. That is we might have been in the way at one point but to assume much else beyond that could result in some conflict.
In splinters I suspect that uniform behavior is required and that being "likeminded" is still a rigid expectation. Here at GS that isn't the case. Sure there have been people who still want to make appeals to others based on way teachings or cliches but its not generally very effective. Back on Waydale I think it was more effective only because people were still very much in touch with their way training and thought every one else should be too.
Having spoken with splinter members its clear to me that some people have relaxed
a bit but not enough to convince me that those splinters are sufficiently different from TWI to warrant my interest or time.
Of course their idea of relaxed expectations is laughable:
"Well we aren't forced to come to fellowship. I mean we do it because we want to ya know. No one notices if we are there or not". Yea right.
That is total BS and everyone knows it. They keep score just like they did in TWI. And try introducing some different theology in the mix and see how long you are tolerated.
That would take an extremely wide definition of "offshoot".
Personally I agree with Catcup's observation that the thing to do is chuck it all and start over (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting) since any truth in TWI would surely be encountered again in the course of one's own study.
heck I do not know. I think it is because I think they will teach me wrong doctrine. or the people will want to talk about something that i know isnt i even in the bible and I will have to disagree.
mj, how do you know they are wrong? is your "rightness" something you know because it was taught to you in twi? I mean, what would it hurt to have a discussion with them and hear them out and listen to what they believe? Is it possible that somethings we learned in twi were wrong and that other people have good reasons to believe what they think?
I mean, I went throught all of this myself, and personally, I agree with Grouchmarx. I don't really care what they believe or why they believe it. The Great Commission isn't to debate all other Christians and get them to belive what I do AND WHAT A RELIEF! Whew! What a LOAD off! I'm no longer on Belief-patrol
I now totally accept and am glad that they have the right to believe anything they want to and I feel no compulsion to CONTROL that for anyone anymore.
This is about the closest that I will get to a TWI offshoot, Ive been to a few of them---well several of them ----and it was always the same old bad movie, going to the same old place- with a few minor twists and turns.
Someone has some special insight into "the truth" shows superficial concern for you, has products for sale and wants you to GIVE-
Thats not to say that most people aren't nice or smart or decent folks--its that they almost always have an agenda and a sense of self importance that was a way staple (at least this is my experience) personally Im not interested--Its the same old same old---
If i get the bug to explore christianity further i am not going to cover the same ground again but Im going to go in some completely different direction
actual it is to not have to debate any issues or doctrines.
twi isnt the only very serious christian group most have an agenda to provide the truth as they know it. most feel they have a mission from God to help and rescue .
or get moey something.
I want to avoid any kind of debate.
and I agree with your conclusion as well, but many churches or groups have the goal of saving or teaching or making you better more enlightenment , more getting involved in programs or classes etc. and yes I have some ideals I will not move from IM not saying Im neccesarily right for anyone eles but it works for me and I really do not want to hear alot of the agruements about some of it anymore.
My education is not only twi.. I study myself and the offshoots and forty years of bible I feel strongly about some stuff.
I have read the bible alot I really do have alot more knowledge than many average christian folks... am I better? no Im not saying that ,it is just I happen to know chapter and verse and when Im discussing what the bible says and they have nO clue what the names of the book even are, I am not willing to educate and that is what it feels like to me.
I can not sit and listen to a discussion about the bible when I know in my own brain it does not say that. no tolerence for it.
granted your not talking with someone who goes to alot of churches or groups any more lol.
so maybe plenty are out there.
I think people go to groups for different reasons and twi kind of still has my brain warped into thinking I should learn a "hot" new bible teaching with chapter and verse... lol heck Im not saying it is ok it is just where im at.
no I do not go for social reasons. I have a bad taste in my head from that ordeal still as well lol.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I'm in an "offshoot," I suppose. If you felt that TWI doctrine was right but practice was wrong, then maybe an offshoot is for you!
George
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dmiller
That's what I am doing.
:)-->
Though I support CES, the nearest fellowship to me is 85 miles away, so I don't go.
Been on my own for 20 years now. An organized meeting would probably scare me to death.
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gc
When I first left twi a few of us started a home fellowship because we were just hanging in limbo it seemed. It started off much like a twig in teaching and ideas, but evolved. After a few years we went our seperate ways, some joining churches others went to more structured twi splinter groups. It was a wonderful time of love, fellowship and growth.
For me it was needed.
gc
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dmiller
(bold is my response):
David
excatholic
exwayfer
exempted from condemnation!
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WhiteDove
I really dislike the word offshoot.
The Way was an offshoot of Bullinger, Stiles,Welch,and others. They were offshoots of their teachers and so on. So who was the original? Every one from Adam and Eve forward? Maybe we are not offshoots of each other maybe we are all a part of the original source? Besides isn't that Waybrain to label things and put them into neat little boxes? Hopefully we have moved on from that habit.
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dmiller
Good point! Although I will have to say that there is a difference between those that broke off from a distinct group, vs. those that *borrowed the material* from others, that was the basis of their ministry.
One of these days, I hope to be an *off-shoot* of Jesus Christ, but I don't expect that to happen, until the return.
:(-->
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Trefor Heywood
The 1976 WOW training manual was done in blob pics and set in "Offshoot Idaho."
A premonition perhaps?
:D-->
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Raf
I've said it before, and it's not always quite understood, but I'll say it again...
Each and every one of us is an offshoot of TWI.
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rascal
I can`t say for sure ex, as I don`t participate in any.
I think that the degree of value of each different one varies greatly.....
I know perfectly wonderfull people who enjoy fellowshipping with their splinter group....I have met wonderfull people who within a year of association with a splinter group that have become arrogant, condescending, and rude....
I know one fellow who`s marriage was destroyed by the wifes fierce adherance to the dictates of an off shoot.
I know people who have been treated even worse in the off shoots than they EVER were in twi....
I tend to think that when involved with a group as toxic as twi was..... it is wise to reevalute each and every so called truth....
If you are around folks who still think the same, believe the same/speak the same language with only minor variations....it is very difficult to recognise and distinguish the healthy belief/thought practices from the dangerous.
I used to fervently wish there was an off shoot to fellowship with in our area when we left....I pined for the old fellowship and comeradery I enjoyed in twi....the feeling of unity, I felt lost without the support of people who understood and believed as I did....
I think now though, that if I had, I would have been comfortable....enjoyed it....but I do not know if I ever would have pierced through the fog of my way brain......I would have still thought I was right...that I didn`t need to make any changes....I would have been trying and failing to make the same silly formulas and principles work that had failed for the LAST 15 years....rather than being able to honestly evaluate my mindset and belief system.
I think it can be tougher to heal.
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Catcup
I'm with Raf. Every person who ever was a part of TWI and left, is an offshoot.
But I am assuming you define an offshoot as an actual organization formed primarily of people who used to belong to a previous organization.
I believe each one should be judged upon it's own merits. Each one is different. And, each person in the organization is different.
Every organization, no matter what it is, whether business or religion, charity or for profit, has it's positives and negatives, upsides and downsides.
Lumping them all together and pidgeonholing them doesn't sort all that out. Categorizing them all one way or another doesn't give an accurate evaluation, IMO. What they are or are not, and what they can or cannot do for an individual depends upon a lot of variables.
if twi is "bad," what makes an offspring "good"
Maybe tossing out the bad stuff and starting from scratch on those particular issues is an improvement.
is one needed for a transitional departure?
I don't believe it is absolutely necessary, depending on the individual. Some folks might benefit with one, some without it.
a lifetime ?
Not necessarily. Although some may wish to.
how does wierwille fit into the mix ?
I don't think he has to. IMO, tossing the old ideology and terminology out and starting from scratch is the best way to go.
If you do that, and begin true independent research, if what you "threw out" was actually truth, you will run across it again as truth.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is ok. Contrary to some folks' fears, the baby is too big to go down the drain, if there was one to begin with...
are they better / worse / either / neither / than a church ?
Yes.
is it just an individual walk with god ?
Absolutely.
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johniam
I remember John Lynn teaching once and he said someone he knew would only use TWI terminology when communicating with family. He said, "No wonder they think you're in a cult!"
Having been out of TWI for more than 10 yrs, I find that I still like to talk to others about the things of God. I worked at a warehouse and there were several other Christians who knew nothing about TWI and all I had to do was lay off the trinity and abortion and I got along with them just fine.
But I like to converse with people about ANY subject without restraints: that means less and less times where I can't speak freely. I can't speak freely with my "earthly family". The most freely I can speak is with my own family which came from me or OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE INTO THE THINGS OF GOD!!! What are my options?
1. a church
2. an "offshoot"
3. some website (oh, hey, how ya doin')
4. a street corner
5. God
God's always there, but we all need contact with other humans, don't we? So I don't have to make my choice based on how closely the doctrine is to TWI. This avoids a lot of headaches. I've been with 4 offshoots and a church. I can do whatever I want, and if any of those groups gets a little too pushy I can find the exit.
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Zshot
Catcup,
Well said.
Every person is different and every group (or sub group) is different.
Each person must make there own decisions concerning how they want to (or not) worship.
We might not agree with the decision that someone else chooses to (or not) worship. However, we should respect it.
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Ham
Don't know about all of them. But I think they are labelled guilty by (ex) association.
Even back in the "good old days", not every twig was a cult, either. Can't say that with much certainty now.
My opinion is anybody out of that place, who was in leadership capacity, who wants to bring "da verd to da world" so to speak, should recognize that they are going to have to live with a little bit of scrutiny, and I think rightly so.
For myself, the first time they claim superiority or some kind, or exclusive ownership of the truth, or even IMPLY it, that would be enough to make my hair stand on end. Even from something like a mission statement.
Perhaps for some. Maybe some offshoots are like a spiritual methadone treatment program. "We will abuse you just a LITTLE bit so you will be more comfortable during withdrawl".
Myself, I went off of the cult business cold turkey for about a year.. I think that was the best for me. The withdrawl symptoms were not that bad..
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GrouchoMarxJr
JAL has made the statement numerous times that (and I'm paraphrasing )...he has never had a real job and he's doing the only thing he knows how to do...
Wierwille taught many things...one of the things he taught was how to build an organization that is funded by donations, providing a source of income for those who run the organization...
Am I a cynic?....yes I am.
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Belle
I dunno, ex. I'm re-evaluating everything. I think people have different needs and are at different levels of belief in TWI doctrine. I guess the answers depend on the person.
:)-->
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diazbro
yes well I think that they make good decompression chambers for those leaving TWI.
I never went the splinter route having left TWI prior to the formation of any splinters. I've been invited to a few and heard some tapes by CES (they were just like Way tapes) but never went. I think people leaving TWI take some solace in the splinter groups because it gives them a place to hang out before they take on "real life".
Obviously some people will remain with the splinter so
for some , these splinters fill the void that TWI previously did. I cannot say that any of these splinters are "bad" because I've never spent time in any of their "fellowships" but the similarities between their stated beliefs and those of TWI are so similar that I don't want to even bother.
I know people who are strong supporters of various way splinter groups and as long as they don't bug me about coming to their "fellowships" then I don't bug them about not being able to let go of Way teachings. The only time I get bothered by people is when I see some former wayfers who think its their job to "rescue" everyone by inviting them to a splinter. "What ? You aren't attending fellowship anywhere ?". I let them know very quickly that its none of their business if and when or where I go to church and that next time they get nosey I won't be nice about it. This approach seems to work to repel advances by W
ay teaching die-hards.
this is basically why I don't socialize with former Way people because when I have it seems like people get some kind of contact high and get nostalgic about the "good ole days" and then someone wants to have a "believer's meeting" or sing some songs from the Way songbook. BLEEEECCCCHH ! Spare me the trip down memory lane.
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mj412
ok I can only say this on this forum and maybe you will understand.
no one eles does.
why is it every since I joined twi and left and then an off shoot ( I call them off shoot because they have the same leaders and much of the same doctrines and much of the same practices shined up to look different and knew.)
I am not able to go to a church?
why?
heck I do not know. I think it is because I think they will teach me wrong doctrine. or the people will want to talk about something that i know isnt i even in the bible and I will have to disagree.
why. heck I do not know why but becuase I think I have the right answers and the truth on many subjects. why did I spend twenty five years learning the bible if it comes down to never being able to discuss it with anyone except in an off shoot?
it isnt fair I do not like it .
but honestly that is the way it is for me.
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karmicdebt
Isn't this Grease Spot Cafe an offshoot...
Heck, it is where we go to be reminded we are okay, accepted (on some level)and have a common bond....
Not that there is anything wrong with that....
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GrouchoMarxJr
mj412...I understand what you are saying...
About 7 years ago I attended an offshoot meeting. It was at a hotel with about 150 people there. I felt really weird...it was like going back in time. Watching the emotional responses of people, listening to the teachings, seeing so many things that reminded me of my years in twi...it was un-nerving for me. I came away from it with the notion that the people involved were like heroin addicts who were now taking methadone...
Shortly after that, I attended a church...I found a number of conflicts going on in my mind that I thought I had laid to rest. I felt like an "outsider" in the sense that I thought I knew more about the bible than any of them there...including the preacher. I had an attitude that I knew was wrong and decided to get honest with myself and deal with it. For me, the "elitist" attitude of being puffed up with knowledge was one of the last, and most difficult parts of "waybrain" for me to get rid of.
Twi "engrafted" this attitude in me...I didn't like it either...so I decided to change. Even if they were teaching things that were not contrary to twi doctrine...but were using different terminology, I felt uneasy...I kept telling myself that twi was wrong about a LOT of what they taught and started looking at the "fruit" in people's lives instead of the doctrines that they taught...I soon realized that love edifieth but knowledge puffeth up...
I continued to go to different churches until I became comfortable with the fellowship aspects...and got to see that they were also intelligent people who had some good ideas about what the bible said...Today, biblical doctrine is simply not that important to me...It took time. Today I view all Christian churches as part of the one body...Christianity is about relationships and living life...being right about specific doctrines is not that important to me anymore...but I had to work at it.
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diazbro
Well if its an offshoot who is collecting
the ABS ? *laff*
I've heard GSCafe characterized as an offshoot of sorts and it could well be though ,speaking in general, its perlious for one to assume that all here have the same attitudes and opinions about the way experience or the post way experience. That is we might have been in the way at one point but to assume much else beyond that could result in some conflict.
In splinters I suspect that uniform behavior is required and that being "likeminded" is still a rigid expectation. Here at GS that isn't the case. Sure there have been people who still want to make appeals to others based on way teachings or cliches but its not generally very effective. Back on Waydale I think it was more effective only because people were still very much in touch with their way training and thought every one else should be too.
Having spoken with splinter members its clear to me that some people have relaxed
a bit but not enough to convince me that those splinters are sufficiently different from TWI to warrant my interest or time.
Of course their idea of relaxed expectations is laughable:
"Well we aren't forced to come to fellowship. I mean we do it because we want to ya know. No one notices if we are there or not". Yea right.
That is total BS and everyone knows it. They keep score just like they did in TWI. And try introducing some different theology in the mix and see how long you are tolerated.
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Oakspear
GS an offshoot?
That would take an extremely wide definition of "offshoot".
Personally I agree with Catcup's observation that the thing to do is chuck it all and start over (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting) since any truth in TWI would surely be encountered again in the course of one's own study.
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waterbuffalo
I mean, I went throught all of this myself, and personally, I agree with Grouchmarx. I don't really care what they believe or why they believe it. The Great Commission isn't to debate all other Christians and get them to belive what I do AND WHAT A RELIEF! Whew! What a LOAD off! I'm no longer on Belief-patrol
I now totally accept and am glad that they have the right to believe anything they want to and I feel no compulsion to CONTROL that for anyone anymore.
THANK GOD!
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mstar1
This is about the closest that I will get to a TWI offshoot, Ive been to a few of them---well several of them ----and it was always the same old bad movie, going to the same old place- with a few minor twists and turns.
Someone has some special insight into "the truth" shows superficial concern for you, has products for sale and wants you to GIVE-
Thats not to say that most people aren't nice or smart or decent folks--its that they almost always have an agenda and a sense of self importance that was a way staple (at least this is my experience) personally Im not interested--Its the same old same old---
If i get the bug to explore christianity further i am not going to cover the same ground again but Im going to go in some completely different direction
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mj412
actual it is to not have to debate any issues or doctrines.
twi isnt the only very serious christian group most have an agenda to provide the truth as they know it. most feel they have a mission from God to help and rescue .
or get moey something.
I want to avoid any kind of debate.
and I agree with your conclusion as well, but many churches or groups have the goal of saving or teaching or making you better more enlightenment , more getting involved in programs or classes etc. and yes I have some ideals I will not move from IM not saying Im neccesarily right for anyone eles but it works for me and I really do not want to hear alot of the agruements about some of it anymore.
My education is not only twi.. I study myself and the offshoots and forty years of bible I feel strongly about some stuff.
I have read the bible alot I really do have alot more knowledge than many average christian folks... am I better? no Im not saying that ,it is just I happen to know chapter and verse and when Im discussing what the bible says and they have nO clue what the names of the book even are, I am not willing to educate and that is what it feels like to me.
I can not sit and listen to a discussion about the bible when I know in my own brain it does not say that. no tolerence for it.
granted your not talking with someone who goes to alot of churches or groups any more lol.
so maybe plenty are out there.
I think people go to groups for different reasons and twi kind of still has my brain warped into thinking I should learn a "hot" new bible teaching with chapter and verse... lol heck Im not saying it is ok it is just where im at.
no I do not go for social reasons. I have a bad taste in my head from that ordeal still as well lol.
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