1. Debt is only discussed in connection with the poor and destitute.
quote:
Leviticus 25:35 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. (fallen….Heb. his hand faileth & relieve: Heb. Strengthen)
Leviticus 25:36 Take thou no usury of him, or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
Clearly, the context here is someone who is poor, destitute. These are not terms that conjure up any kind of imagery of prosperity. It is people who have fallen on hardship and there not to be taken advantage of by the fellow believers if they’re loaned something.
This is not true. The poor, destitute are NOT the only ones mentioned regarding loans, borrowing, etc. in the Bible. Maybe in the few verses that Rico picked out, but not in all verses.
In 2 Kings 4:1 does not indicate a poor, destitute family and to imply as such would be private interpretation. He obviously had a loan and was not behind on it, but once he died his widow was unable to pay and THEN it became debt.
There are more, but you already know that. ;)--> It just doesn't fit your agenda.
Wow Belle, Your little fingers must be hurting from typing all this in. I just thought I might put the link to my debt research on here for anyone to comment on. I'd love to hear about any holes in logic that are in it. That is of course what I asked my twi leadership to do when I gave it to them. I told them I needed to know what biblical research principal I was missing or what points of logic I was wrong on. But of course I never heard anything from anyone at all on the subject other than their telling me that they would work it and get back to me. (Oh, and that I was wrong)Well, these notes that Belle have typed DO NOT FIT with the Bible in any way shape or form. According to these notes Jesus Christ was in debt until he paid off our sin in full and therefore would not be eligible for leadership of God's people.
Anyway I thought some of you might be interested in the link.
I just thought the conclusion of the paper (which was sent to the Board of Directors of TWI in November of 2001) might be of interest. As I re-read it now, I see alot of waybrain, however it was where my heart and head were at the time. It was a very tough time in my life and yet has turned out to me the very best time, because it got me the heck out of a very evil cult! and on to a very wonderful life!
"CONCLUSION:
This definition of debt fits with every verse of scripture in the New Testament. It is: any obligation that becomes past due, be it financial or legal or spiritual. Any committment not kept. Any duty not performed. Any obligation not met. It is not the committments, obligation, or duties themselves (no matter how they are worded or what they are called). It is the non-performance that determines what becomes debt.
When I presented this definition to my fellowship coordinator, he rightly asked me, "If anyone finds holes in this, are you willing to change your mind?". My answer both then and now is an emphatic YES. But by the same token, life, logic and what I have presented above exposes the holes in what we have been taught so far. That is why I have been obligated to change my mind about what we have been taught so far.
I changed it to the definition of debt as presented above, and in doing so all the things that I needed clarification on as to whether or not they were debt became clarified. Is rent? NO, only if past due. Is a car loan? No, only if past due. Is child support? No, only what is past due. It goes on and on.
Remember, I have only presented a definition to show what is lawful for us.
1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (KJV)
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (KJV)
I am not saying, car loans, mortgages, student loans, child support etc. are best or even smart or expedient. I am simply saying they are not debt. Going out and maxing ones credit card and then only making minimum payments violates other principals of the Word. It is not good stewardship of the money God gives you. It is not traveling light. However, if you make the payments agreed to with the credit card company it is not debt.
Let's be good financial stewards, Let's live with what we need and not allow greed to affect our decisions. Then, let's meet our financial obligations, knowing that it is only when we do not, that we are in debt and out of fellowship.
NOW WHAT:
I believe that the Word of God is very clear on this subject as well as every other. If what I have seen in the Word and just presented can be refuted in some way, then by all means please point out my error to me, because I want my thinking to line up with the Word. Please give me a definition of debt that corrects my error. Then I can plug that definition into every verse and see the beauty of God's wonderful matchless Word. Once we have that definition, let's teach it.
What is being taught in the ministry right now:
1)that Rom 13:8 is the standard for financial living,
2)that Rom 13:8 is what shows us that we are not to take out loans of any kind and that we are in debt and sinning if we do,
3)that we won't truly grow spiritually until we pay off every financial obligation,
and 4)that God can do anything, therefore we should rent and save up money for a house,
is not backed up sufficiently in the Word to make it what it has become; which is one of the foundational doctrines of our ministry. It seems to be right up there with "Jesus Christ is not God" and "The dead are not alive". Yet, we have volumes written that expound every scripture on these subjects to show us without any shadow of doubt that these doctrines are true. We have not even clarifed for our people what is and is not debt.
I needed deliverance. I went to the Word and was still confused, because I still didn't see how what we were teaching fit. I asked my leadership, and then I went to the Word again. This time without the preconceived notion of what debt was. I got my deliverence. In looking at every verse, by the time I got to 1 Co 7:3 and 2 Co 12:11, the truth was shouting at me. I was delivered. I had no more frustration or condemnation. I could focus my energy on moving the Word instead of trying to put and keep a roof over my head.
I do not believe I am alone in feeling bound by a doctrine that I do not see in the Word and which is near to impossible to live with. In fact, I cannot see how to merge the ministry thinking on debt (especially in the area of housing) with other verses in the Word.
Matthew 6:31-32 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)--> for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. (KJV)
I got delivered because, I am no longer expending so much energy on housing. I can rent, lease, mortgage, land contract or do anything else. We have decided to get a roof over our head for the long term in whatever way fits our family finances, will best prepare us for retirement, and that fits with the rest of the Word of God. For example, we are told to be good stewards of God's money and that preparation is the highest form of believeing. We will apply these truths to planning for our retirement and leaving something for our children for whom the Word does say we should "lay up".
I got delivered from the condemnation I was in from having questioned debt and for even asking for a definition. I thought I was wrong for trying to figure out how to have a roof over my head after I retire. I thought I was looking for loopholes to see how I could get what I want and still be in good standing with the ministry.
I got delivered from qualifying people in our minds before we bring them to our ministry. Even though I know that the ministry has never said, "Do not witness to anyone who makes their living by ways we consider debt," practically speaking, why would I bring my landlord to fellowship where he is going to learn that God wants him to sell all of his properties that he doesn't own outright? These are what gives him his livelihood. He would have to change professions! I do not see in the Word where bankers, creditors, lenders, lords or kings or rich people, who all lent money, were told to change professions or were not able to get born again. True, I do not see any records of them getting born again, but I do not see any plumbers or writers either. Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (KJV) This area of ministry thinking is keeping the greater truths of the Word from people. People think we are nuts for living under these rules. Their church lets them have a home. Why would they bother coming and hearing about the greatness of the grace administration and living in liberty and that Christ has made them free, if we are going to treat them as second class believers and babes if they do not sell their house because it is mortgaged.
I got delivered from the condemnation I had because I had chosen the foolish way out of debt. I had sold my house that was mortgaged and I would have been able to pay it off by now, or if not now, I am sure it could have been paid off by the time I save up enough to buy one cash while paying someone else rent. Once I saw the truth, I knew that was all past and it didn't matter anymore and that I could start fresh and move on.
I know that I am not alone in my questions. We owe it to our people to release them with the truth of the Word. If not by way of the definition I have presented, then at least with one that does work, and fits with every truth of the Word; not just some of them.
In this ministry year of "Speaking the Truth in Love", let's start with speaking the truth in love to our household on the subject of debt."
On the 1st page, the very beginning, Rico refers to "opening our minds and hearts". Boy! VPW would have a fit!
Then later on, I think on page 2 the time was 14:48 post, he mentioned moral obligations. I believe he mentioned the word "moral" about 5 times.
People, I've listened to some of the radio hacker ministries for about a year... The minute they start mentioning "morals", they've just told me they don't know what "spirit" is and that they are a victim waiting to happen.
Take I Sammuel 15 and talk to God about what's morally right! I love that point! What's considered morally right isn't always spiritually right.... just look at Iraq! Should have been a glass parking lot 2 years ago!
People, I've listened to some of the radio hacker ministries for about a year... The minute they start mentioning "morals", they've just told me they don't know what "spirit" is and that they are a victim waiting to happen.
Take I Sammuel 15 and talk to God about what's morally right! I love that point! What's considered morally right isn't always spiritually right.... just look at Iraq! Should have been a glass parking lot 2 years ago!
So nice to hear that you want some members of my family dead, personalwanker.
Funny, as soon as I hear someone say something like:"just look at Iraq! Should have been a glass parking lot 2 years ago!" I quickly realize that you know nothing about morals. So why should I take anyone seriously about morality vs. spirituality when they don't even know what one of those words is all about. Not to mention that the other word is more of a fantasy than anything.
I'm not sure I get your point. Not sure what a "radio hacker ministry" is or how a "glass parking lot" relates. Are you disagreeing with the paper because the author used a word you don't like?
Lindy,
You seem to have taken some bad things from his comments. (I love your family very much, BTW) Help me out here?
Perhaps my idea of what a glass parking lot is refering to, is different from what you think, or what he meant. I saw it as saying we should have nuked Iraq 2 years ago. I think that assumption is correct. The family you know is not the one I was refering to. The one I was refering to was one by marriage. My wife has many many relatives in Iraq, including in Bagdad. They are all Christian BTW. There are quite a few Christian Iraqis, which is what I think Oak's "infanticide" comment was about.
Somehow PE thinks that is the spiritually correct thing to do. IMO, that is beyond insanity. To think that there is such a disconnect between spirituality and morality clearly shows a lack of understanding of at least one if not both of those topics. Religion has perpetuated, clarified, and enforced many good moral philosophies and ideals, and not just Christian ones.
So to bring this back around, if killing off part of my family is part of that "owe no man anything but to love" then that is one twisted interpretation. Sorry for going off, but I do think blood is thicker than water, oil, ectoplasm or any other possible spiritual fluid.
BTW, JT, did some people I know help someone you know move this past weekend?
The chapter of the bible mentioned talks about killing a people, including the women & children. That was the infanticide I was referring to. Of course, it applies to the "glass parking lot" solution that was suggested
NapkinLady, thanks for posting the link to your paper. To say that it helped me a bunch would be an understatement.
You very accurately and very precisely use TWI's very own rules for research and show them beyond the shadow of a doubt the biblical definition of debt. I think they KNOW you're right, but it would require them to admit they were wrong and that could open them to lawsuits from people forced to sell their homes.
They know you're right and that's precisely why the teachings don't use any of the scriptures or cover any of the words that you studied. They very deftly avoid any truly relevant scriptures for fear the TWIts will see the truth.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty, only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
We have been called unto liberty, to freedom. JC came to fulfill the law and call us to liberty. We have the choice. We can either utilize that freedom to succeed according to the standards of the word or we can use that freedom to go the way of the world and that’s an occasion to the flesh. It opens us up to the ability to serve one another, to be a “doulosâ€.
quote:
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
(An omission here), you cannot love your neighbor without first loving God with all your heart, should, mind and strength. It’s implied; it’s assumed that it’s already being done. It’s emphasizing more abundantly how we practically manifest the love of and for God in the renewed mind in manifestation. We bring it into manifestation. In Galatians, JC as the red thread is the believer’s righteousness and righteousness is the ability to be right and to do right.
Notice how this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with debt? Notice, too, how TWI keeps it from having anything to do with actually loving your neighbor or actually DOING anything to help your neighbor? They oh, so conveniently never get to actually putting forth a finger to help ANYONE. Heck, they dont' even take care of their own much less anyone outside TWI who might really need it.
Its all so lame. Words, words, words, but no real concrete and solid solutions. Do not heed their financial advice.
In my opinion TWI has cost the believers MILLIONS in lost equity due to this obsessive preoccupation with debt. In the last few years I was in it was STRICTLY enforced to be out of all debt.
We were confronted regularly about our so called "debt" and what we were going to do about paying it off. They were referring to our real estate debt. I knew better than to listen to or obey their lame foot logic. It just did not fit with reality. We quietly refused to pay off our mortgages even though we could have easily done so. Their advice of course was to liquidate. If I had done that I calculate that I would have lost over $200,000 because of the ensuing real estate boom.
The money was invested elsewhere. By refusing to obey their twisted logic, those investments have generated enough that now we are debt free. But we gained a bundle doing it the right way. BY USING DEBT WISELY.
They are just soooooo dumb when it comes to finances.
What they should have been teaching instead was that everyone should go IN real estate debt as fast as possible and get a mortgage that was within their means. This would have been 6 or 7 years ago.
If they had told eveyone to go in debt there would now be millions in excess equity at the hands of thousands of thankful household believers, eager to share their 10%.
The only thing they got right was credit card debt which is a no, no. Any idiot knows that.
They screwed up bad and gave bad financial advice. There is no getting around it.
If you want Bible stuff to back it up just read the parable of the talents. They should have been teaching that instead of 28 pages of THEIR WORD.
John we bought a house three years ago: 3/2, 1,600 sq. ft. in a nice middle class neighborhood - $134,000. I refinanced last year after the divorce and today, three years later, houses SMALLER than mine on the same street are selling for OVER $210,000. My mortgage payment? $850 Typical rental prices in my neighborhood? $1,200
BTW, my credit score is 790, so I must be doing SOMETHING right. Oh, I know......I listened to MY DADDY and not BOB MONEYHANDS. :D-->
Well, if you are on track with today's work skills, that should be no problem. Unless you've been "busy" kissing TWI's backsides on some "cushy" staff job for years- then you are in for some real trouble..
What if the economy goes completely to pot.
So what? If the economy went completely "south", either way, if you rent, or if you are buying, you're still gonna be in a heap of crap.
Is that what they are really making people afraid of? The possibility of NOT being able to meet their obligations?
I think it boils down to TWI's "greatest enemy"- fear.
Worst case scenario? I lose my job and can't pay my mortgage.....I can sell my house and in today's market I'll be almost $70,000 richer, surely I could do something with that to survive.
If I was renting, I would really be up a creek and begging other TWIts to let me move in with them, but since TWIts don't really help each other, they would tell me to "believe God" to help me with my situation and check with my relatives that I had insulted and isolated myself from to see if they could help.
BTW, now my house is valued at over $249,000. I've since been promoted; received a very nice raise; bought my dream car; spent most of the summer visiting family; attending reunions and reuniting with old "true blue" friends.
I can read any book I want to. I can discuss topics of our choice with friends. I can even get into heated debates if I so choose and I'm allowed to - gasp! - change my mind if I learn something new.
Hmmmm.......wonder what the TWIts have to compare to that. Based on this transcript - not even intelligent teachings that stay on topic. :blink:
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Belle
This is not true. The poor, destitute are NOT the only ones mentioned regarding loans, borrowing, etc. in the Bible. Maybe in the few verses that Rico picked out, but not in all verses.
In 2 Kings 4:1 does not indicate a poor, destitute family and to imply as such would be private interpretation. He obviously had a loan and was not behind on it, but once he died his widow was unable to pay and THEN it became debt.
There are more, but you already know that.
;)--> It just doesn't fit your agenda.
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napkinlady
Wow Belle, Your little fingers must be hurting from typing all this in. I just thought I might put the link to my debt research on here for anyone to comment on. I'd love to hear about any holes in logic that are in it. That is of course what I asked my twi leadership to do when I gave it to them. I told them I needed to know what biblical research principal I was missing or what points of logic I was wrong on. But of course I never heard anything from anyone at all on the subject other than their telling me that they would work it and get back to me. (Oh, and that I was wrong)Well, these notes that Belle have typed DO NOT FIT with the Bible in any way shape or form. According to these notes Jesus Christ was in debt until he paid off our sin in full and therefore would not be eligible for leadership of God's people.
Anyway I thought some of you might be interested in the link.
http://www.waychrist.com/featured_writers/debt.htm
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napkinlady
I just thought the conclusion of the paper (which was sent to the Board of Directors of TWI in November of 2001) might be of interest. As I re-read it now, I see alot of waybrain, however it was where my heart and head were at the time. It was a very tough time in my life and yet has turned out to me the very best time, because it got me the heck out of a very evil cult! and on to a very wonderful life!
"CONCLUSION:
This definition of debt fits with every verse of scripture in the New Testament. It is: any obligation that becomes past due, be it financial or legal or spiritual. Any committment not kept. Any duty not performed. Any obligation not met. It is not the committments, obligation, or duties themselves (no matter how they are worded or what they are called). It is the non-performance that determines what becomes debt.
When I presented this definition to my fellowship coordinator, he rightly asked me, "If anyone finds holes in this, are you willing to change your mind?". My answer both then and now is an emphatic YES. But by the same token, life, logic and what I have presented above exposes the holes in what we have been taught so far. That is why I have been obligated to change my mind about what we have been taught so far.
I changed it to the definition of debt as presented above, and in doing so all the things that I needed clarification on as to whether or not they were debt became clarified. Is rent? NO, only if past due. Is a car loan? No, only if past due. Is child support? No, only what is past due. It goes on and on.
Remember, I have only presented a definition to show what is lawful for us.
1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (KJV)
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (KJV)
I am not saying, car loans, mortgages, student loans, child support etc. are best or even smart or expedient. I am simply saying they are not debt. Going out and maxing ones credit card and then only making minimum payments violates other principals of the Word. It is not good stewardship of the money God gives you. It is not traveling light. However, if you make the payments agreed to with the credit card company it is not debt.
Let's be good financial stewards, Let's live with what we need and not allow greed to affect our decisions. Then, let's meet our financial obligations, knowing that it is only when we do not, that we are in debt and out of fellowship.
NOW WHAT:
I believe that the Word of God is very clear on this subject as well as every other. If what I have seen in the Word and just presented can be refuted in some way, then by all means please point out my error to me, because I want my thinking to line up with the Word. Please give me a definition of debt that corrects my error. Then I can plug that definition into every verse and see the beauty of God's wonderful matchless Word. Once we have that definition, let's teach it.
What is being taught in the ministry right now:
1)that Rom 13:8 is the standard for financial living,
2)that Rom 13:8 is what shows us that we are not to take out loans of any kind and that we are in debt and sinning if we do,
3)that we won't truly grow spiritually until we pay off every financial obligation,
and 4)that God can do anything, therefore we should rent and save up money for a house,
is not backed up sufficiently in the Word to make it what it has become; which is one of the foundational doctrines of our ministry. It seems to be right up there with "Jesus Christ is not God" and "The dead are not alive". Yet, we have volumes written that expound every scripture on these subjects to show us without any shadow of doubt that these doctrines are true. We have not even clarifed for our people what is and is not debt.
I needed deliverance. I went to the Word and was still confused, because I still didn't see how what we were teaching fit. I asked my leadership, and then I went to the Word again. This time without the preconceived notion of what debt was. I got my deliverence. In looking at every verse, by the time I got to 1 Co 7:3 and 2 Co 12:11, the truth was shouting at me. I was delivered. I had no more frustration or condemnation. I could focus my energy on moving the Word instead of trying to put and keep a roof over my head.
I do not believe I am alone in feeling bound by a doctrine that I do not see in the Word and which is near to impossible to live with. In fact, I cannot see how to merge the ministry thinking on debt (especially in the area of housing) with other verses in the Word.
Matthew 6:31-32 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek
:)--> for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. (KJV)
I got delivered because, I am no longer expending so much energy on housing. I can rent, lease, mortgage, land contract or do anything else. We have decided to get a roof over our head for the long term in whatever way fits our family finances, will best prepare us for retirement, and that fits with the rest of the Word of God. For example, we are told to be good stewards of God's money and that preparation is the highest form of believeing. We will apply these truths to planning for our retirement and leaving something for our children for whom the Word does say we should "lay up".
I got delivered from the condemnation I was in from having questioned debt and for even asking for a definition. I thought I was wrong for trying to figure out how to have a roof over my head after I retire. I thought I was looking for loopholes to see how I could get what I want and still be in good standing with the ministry.
I got delivered from qualifying people in our minds before we bring them to our ministry. Even though I know that the ministry has never said, "Do not witness to anyone who makes their living by ways we consider debt," practically speaking, why would I bring my landlord to fellowship where he is going to learn that God wants him to sell all of his properties that he doesn't own outright? These are what gives him his livelihood. He would have to change professions! I do not see in the Word where bankers, creditors, lenders, lords or kings or rich people, who all lent money, were told to change professions or were not able to get born again. True, I do not see any records of them getting born again, but I do not see any plumbers or writers either. Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (KJV) This area of ministry thinking is keeping the greater truths of the Word from people. People think we are nuts for living under these rules. Their church lets them have a home. Why would they bother coming and hearing about the greatness of the grace administration and living in liberty and that Christ has made them free, if we are going to treat them as second class believers and babes if they do not sell their house because it is mortgaged.
I got delivered from the condemnation I had because I had chosen the foolish way out of debt. I had sold my house that was mortgaged and I would have been able to pay it off by now, or if not now, I am sure it could have been paid off by the time I save up enough to buy one cash while paying someone else rent. Once I saw the truth, I knew that was all past and it didn't matter anymore and that I could start fresh and move on.
I know that I am not alone in my questions. We owe it to our people to release them with the truth of the Word. If not by way of the definition I have presented, then at least with one that does work, and fits with every truth of the Word; not just some of them.
In this ministry year of "Speaking the Truth in Love", let's start with speaking the truth in love to our household on the subject of debt."
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napkinlady
By the way, TWI and waygb, I still feel that way, teach your people the TRUTH about debt or fold!
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personalentertainr
On the 1st page, the very beginning, Rico refers to "opening our minds and hearts". Boy! VPW would have a fit!
Then later on, I think on page 2 the time was 14:48 post, he mentioned moral obligations. I believe he mentioned the word "moral" about 5 times.
People, I've listened to some of the radio hacker ministries for about a year... The minute they start mentioning "morals", they've just told me they don't know what "spirit" is and that they are a victim waiting to happen.
Take I Sammuel 15 and talk to God about what's morally right! I love that point! What's considered morally right isn't always spiritually right.... just look at Iraq! Should have been a glass parking lot 2 years ago!
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Oakspear
Wow! Infanticide & genocide: two great reasons to follow the god of the OT!
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lindyhopper
So nice to hear that you want some members of my family dead, personalwanker.
Funny, as soon as I hear someone say something like:"just look at Iraq! Should have been a glass parking lot 2 years ago!" I quickly realize that you know nothing about morals. So why should I take anyone seriously about morality vs. spirituality when they don't even know what one of those words is all about. Not to mention that the other word is more of a fantasy than anything.
But thanks for your thoughts, idiot.
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JustThinking
PE,
I'm not sure I get your point. Not sure what a "radio hacker ministry" is or how a "glass parking lot" relates. Are you disagreeing with the paper because the author used a word you don't like?
Lindy,
You seem to have taken some bad things from his comments. (I love your family very much, BTW) Help me out here?
JT
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lindyhopper
JT, just the person I was thinking of.
Perhaps my idea of what a glass parking lot is refering to, is different from what you think, or what he meant. I saw it as saying we should have nuked Iraq 2 years ago. I think that assumption is correct. The family you know is not the one I was refering to. The one I was refering to was one by marriage. My wife has many many relatives in Iraq, including in Bagdad. They are all Christian BTW. There are quite a few Christian Iraqis, which is what I think Oak's "infanticide" comment was about.
Somehow PE thinks that is the spiritually correct thing to do. IMO, that is beyond insanity. To think that there is such a disconnect between spirituality and morality clearly shows a lack of understanding of at least one if not both of those topics. Religion has perpetuated, clarified, and enforced many good moral philosophies and ideals, and not just Christian ones.
So to bring this back around, if killing off part of my family is part of that "owe no man anything but to love" then that is one twisted interpretation. Sorry for going off, but I do think blood is thicker than water, oil, ectoplasm or any other possible spiritual fluid.
BTW, JT, did some people I know help someone you know move this past weekend?
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Oakspear
The chapter of the bible mentioned talks about killing a people, including the women & children. That was the infanticide I was referring to. Of course, it applies to the "glass parking lot" solution that was suggested
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Belle
NapkinLady, thanks for posting the link to your paper. To say that it helped me a bunch would be an understatement.
You very accurately and very precisely use TWI's very own rules for research and show them beyond the shadow of a doubt the biblical definition of debt. I think they KNOW you're right, but it would require them to admit they were wrong and that could open them to lawsuits from people forced to sell their homes.
They know you're right and that's precisely why the teachings don't use any of the scriptures or cover any of the words that you studied. They very deftly avoid any truly relevant scriptures for fear the TWIts will see the truth.
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Belle
Notice how this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with debt? Notice, too, how TWI keeps it from having anything to do with actually loving your neighbor or actually DOING anything to help your neighbor? They oh, so conveniently never get to actually putting forth a finger to help ANYONE. Heck, they dont' even take care of their own much less anyone outside TWI who might really need it.
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igotout
Its all so lame. Words, words, words, but no real concrete and solid solutions. Do not heed their financial advice.
In my opinion TWI has cost the believers MILLIONS in lost equity due to this obsessive preoccupation with debt. In the last few years I was in it was STRICTLY enforced to be out of all debt.
We were confronted regularly about our so called "debt" and what we were going to do about paying it off. They were referring to our real estate debt. I knew better than to listen to or obey their lame foot logic. It just did not fit with reality. We quietly refused to pay off our mortgages even though we could have easily done so. Their advice of course was to liquidate. If I had done that I calculate that I would have lost over $200,000 because of the ensuing real estate boom.
The money was invested elsewhere. By refusing to obey their twisted logic, those investments have generated enough that now we are debt free. But we gained a bundle doing it the right way. BY USING DEBT WISELY.
They are just soooooo dumb when it comes to finances.
What they should have been teaching instead was that everyone should go IN real estate debt as fast as possible and get a mortgage that was within their means. This would have been 6 or 7 years ago.
If they had told eveyone to go in debt there would now be millions in excess equity at the hands of thousands of thankful household believers, eager to share their 10%.
The only thing they got right was credit card debt which is a no, no. Any idiot knows that.
They screwed up bad and gave bad financial advice. There is no getting around it.
If you want Bible stuff to back it up just read the parable of the talents. They should have been teaching that instead of 28 pages of THEIR WORD.
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Belle
John we bought a house three years ago: 3/2, 1,600 sq. ft. in a nice middle class neighborhood - $134,000. I refinanced last year after the divorce and today, three years later, houses SMALLER than mine on the same street are selling for OVER $210,000. My mortgage payment? $850 Typical rental prices in my neighborhood? $1,200
BTW, my credit score is 790, so I must be doing SOMETHING right. Oh, I know......I listened to MY DADDY and not BOB MONEYHANDS.
:D-->
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Ham
Even from a pessimistic "what if" attitude:
what if:
You lose your job.
Well, if you are on track with today's work skills, that should be no problem. Unless you've been "busy" kissing TWI's backsides on some "cushy" staff job for years- then you are in for some real trouble..
What if the economy goes completely to pot.
So what? If the economy went completely "south", either way, if you rent, or if you are buying, you're still gonna be in a heap of crap.
Is that what they are really making people afraid of? The possibility of NOT being able to meet their obligations?
I think it boils down to TWI's "greatest enemy"- fear.
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Belle
Worst case scenario? I lose my job and can't pay my mortgage.....I can sell my house and in today's market I'll be almost $70,000 richer, surely I could do something with that to survive.
If I was renting, I would really be up a creek and begging other TWIts to let me move in with them, but since TWIts don't really help each other, they would tell me to "believe God" to help me with my situation and check with my relatives that I had insulted and isolated myself from to see if they could help.
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Belle
To the top by request.
BTW, now my house is valued at over $249,000. I've since been promoted; received a very nice raise; bought my dream car; spent most of the summer visiting family; attending reunions and reuniting with old "true blue" friends.
I can read any book I want to. I can discuss topics of our choice with friends. I can even get into heated debates if I so choose and I'm allowed to - gasp! - change my mind if I learn something new.
Hmmmm.......wonder what the TWIts have to compare to that.
Based on this transcript - not even intelligent teachings that stay on topic. :blink:
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