Rico's Debt Teaching to WC - Transcription/sort of

[Belle]

quote:

Romans 13:8 Owe no man anything but to love one another; for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

In some ways you can say “there you go, it’s the clearest verse on the subject” but it would be inappropriate to just say “live with it”. The word “owe” here in verse eight is “ophilo” and it is written in the Greek in the commandment. It’s a commandment to be done continuously. Notice how the lessons of the law are brought to mind as this truth is now brought up because of the groundwork that we laid as we’ve gone back and looked at the lessons of the law; then when the law is mentioned it should bring up those lessons in our understanding of what we looked at regarding the subject. You could look at this verse and you could say “it’s not talking about money.” There’s a case to be made for that because, let’s back up and read the first seven verses.

quote:

Romans 13:1Let every soul be subject to the higher powers (leaders in the church). For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God. (ordained or ordered)

v.2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God, and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

v.3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same

v.4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

If he’s a minister of the word and if there’s evil creeping in, it’s his responsibility to address it.

quote:

v.5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Here’s the logical consequence for unbelief

quote:

v.6 For this cause pay ye tribute also, for they are God’s ministers attending continually upon this very thing.

v.7 Render therefore to all their dues; tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Switches to financial matters here. So, whatever is necessary, whatever is due to that person, that’s what we should give them. If it’s respect for their position or their stand, respect them. If it’s honor for their position or their stand, that’s what we should do, we should honor them. If it’s financial matters, we should support them financially (double honors – means both the respect and the financial support).

quote:

v.7 Render therefore…….

v.8 Owe no man anything….

Context is leaders in the household, yes, but let’s consider our key to the word’s interpretation. First, in the verse right where it is written. OWE NO MAN ANYTHING is really quite clear, it’s not a difficult thing to understand.

Second, in the verse, the word or words must be interpreted according to biblical usage. Well, we did a little background already on the word “owe”. Biblical usage, what does the word “owe” mean? It means to leave unsatisfied obligations. We have seen how this word applies financially and morally.

Third, words must be used in harmony in the verse as well as all the scripture relating to the subject. We have investigated both OT and NT records regarding debt.

The word “owe” must not only be in harmony with not only the verse but all the scripture relating to the subject. You cannot pluck it out and say that it doesn’t apply financially when all the other verses that we read apply either financially or morally. That concept carries through.

Fourth, difficult verses must be understood in light of the clear verses on the subject. This is not the clearest verse on the subject of debt, it has the word “debt” in it. There’s much surrounding it in terms of understanding.

Fifth, in respect to whom addressed. Romans is written to the church of God, written to us.

All scripture interprets itself in the context. We have read that the context here is leadership in the household. There’s so many lessons we could spend many hours looking through verses 1 through 7, but what do those ministers do in the household? We could go back into the OT and look at how the ministers functioned back then and what were the people to do in response to that. All those truths will help us understand verses 1 through 7. It’s the relationship between the believer and the overseer and how that overseer is to serve that person in the household and how that person in the household is to respond with moral support, financial support. All the lessons of the schoolmaster would help us with this (verses 1 through 7). Let’s look at one example:

quote:

Numbers 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Even in the OT there was a relationship between those two. There was the service of the Levites and there was the appropriate response of the people, the tenth. So the tithe was to be brought to the overseers who then utilized it properly. So you can see that we’re tying the two concepts together, the overseers of the NT, the Grace Administration, the overseers of the OT and the Law Administration. The LESSONS OF THE LAW help us understand the relationship of the church epistles. So when we get to verse 8 and it says “owe no man anything”, yes, it’s referring textually to the relationship between the person (the believer) and the overseer first. That’s the concept, absolutely, but to say, see, that’s not talking about financial debt; that would be just as inappropriate as saying, see we’re not supposed to be in debt; both would be wrong to say, it’s the only way to be interpreted. God uses the “obey here” and all the weight that it carries, all the context that it carries, communicates a spiritual truth, that spiritual truth of HOW the household is to work together, the believers with the overseers. It’s God’s prerogative to use that word but for some reason here he uses a financial term. To pluck that verse out and say that it is just dealing with the relationship between the believer and the overseer would be equally as wrong. As an example:

quote:

Romans 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

What type if business is it talking about here? The work of the ministry. Just like Romans 13 we can’t say that it’s only ministry related and be slothful on our secular job. You see, these words just carry so much more.

quote:

Romans 13:7 Render therefore…..

“Dues” it is the word debt. Render to all your moral obligations whether financial or moral. Restates the definition of debt….

Edited July 10, 2005 by Belle

[Belle]

quote:

Romans 13:8 Owe no man anything….

THIS INCLUDES FINANCIAL DEBT!!!

quote:

Romans 13:9 For this, thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not covet and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

“As thyself” once again the love of God is missing here because the emphasis is on the practical. The horizontal is already defined, that we love God with all our heart, soul mind and strength.

quote:

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

No destructive evil. The word “law” here is the 75th and last usage in the book of Romans.

Dr. closed the “University of Life” teaching on the book of Romans 13:8-10:

quote:

If you are ever going to have the word of God to multiply and prevail, men and women will have to get rid of their ballast and come back to the simplicity and the greatness of God’s word; and to love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself.

God does not look upon debt with favor and blessing but with the solution to deal with the impact of debt. He desperately wants us to realize that he is sovereign, that he wants to provide. He will provide, that he wants to protect, he will protect.

As saints who hold the line in this category of financial debt, we have the advantage to bring forth more abundantly and really live the higher calling of love.

If a man or woman wants to call himself a believer and truly loves God with the love of God, he will not knowingly and willingly with disregard to the word, put himself under a yoke of bondage or legalistic standard when freedom in Christ is available.

That being said, if there’s a result of ignorance or wrong teaching or extreme dire circumstances, a believer finds himself in bondage, there is no condemnation, there is no criticism, there is no punishment but rather love will energize his believing to earnestly seek freedom in that category.

As a household we can bear this burden by helping where we can, by praying and believing for the deliverance that the person desires. This is a process of teaching freedom in any category that we call in our ministry “release from your prisons”. It is God’s holy ground we can all stand on.

[Belle]

When it comes to dire and extreme circumstances, that would be something different for everyone. Leadership can’t judge what that is, only you can determine what that is for yourself. They can help to consider options in thinking through. We have household resources available for us so we can do the best in believing God’s word. Only you can determine what your circumstances are and make a decision. The important key is to not knowingly and willingly with disregard (ex: I don’t care what God’s word says, “I want this!”). A lot has to do with attitude and approach. Our attitude reflects so much of HOW we will approach a situation. The point is, “let’s get the account balanced. Let’s utilize the resources of the household.

quote:

Memo: Board of Directors: We do not have a policy that mandates what people do with their personal finances. We do have teaching on debt and God’s will for His people to prosper. We have required this for participation in various classes and functions in the ministry. Being debt free is among the qualifications for the participation in the advanced class, coordination of a household fellowship and other rolls of service and leadership. The fact that a person has not yet fulfilled the requirements for a particular class or a particular level of service is not a negative assessment of their life. All of us are continually growing and we don’t compare people with one another. Our fellowships are for spiritual nurture and growth providing the most loving and helpful environment we can at ever level of teaching and service. As they advance, the doors that open to them are the ones that are best suited to their current maturity level.”

Take the time to consider and really work this material for yourself. It’s important that you look to the scripture to determine for yourself that this indeed is the word of God.

It IS available in our day and time, in our culture, to have our needs met and still do it according to God’s word.

It may take longer for us to reach our goals than is our preference because we have a tendency in the USA for instant gratification. Must have it NOW! Gotta have….gotta have….. It is available to reach our goals. We have resources, we have knowledge and we have experience in our ministry to help us figure it out.

I really think that we are gonna benefit from this directly along with our kids and their kids. With this kind of basis of understanding and figuring things out how we can make things happen and prosper financially in our lives. We have the advantage of holy spirit to help us bring forth more abundantly but we have to be careful that our standard, our standard of success is the word’s standard for success not the world’s standard.

The American dream is not to own your own house or business. Debt is not the foundation upon which our country was built but was built on the freedom to choose to succeed or prevail. If that means to you owning a house, or a nice car, or anything else that’s on your heart, we’re not against it, TWI is not against it. Solomon had an abundance of riches beyond belief. It’s vital that we make sure that we understand that God is the one who set the framework for spiritual success, for success in living and that may or may not involve certain material things.

[Belle]

That's it GSpotters!

It's 28 pages in Word. If you'd like a word doc of it, just PT or e-mail me and I'll ship it off to you. :)-->

Since it's so freaking long....do you think we should start a different thread to discuss it or carry on on this thread? There's so many assumptions that he calls "implications" and so many leaps of logic it's laughable. He doesn't actually address debt and what all the scriptures say that mention it, but rather spends so much time talking about a few OT scriptures and how that part of the OT is "implied" to still be in effect in the NT. (Gee, sounds like the "Picking and choosing" thread in practical application. :D-->)

He also spends quite a bit of time talking about "law" and "obey" and rendering financial dues to the overseers of the church. -->

So much I want to say, but NASCAR is on and that's a priority in this household. :D-->

[wingnut]

I am so glad to find out that I imagined having to do budgets for my BC and report on my staying on the budget! That my FC was only fooling when they confronted me on not wanting to once again become an AC grad and not seeking to spend turkey dinner in Texas with the BOT!

I knew the BOT had my best interest in mind while I drove junk cars and paid out more in rent than a mortgage would be. No wonder after all the years of being a TC and actually having fruit and deliverance in my fellowship I was almost overnight unworthy!

[dmiller]

quote:

It's 28 pages in Word. If you'd like a word doc of it, just PT or e-mail me and I'll ship it off to you. :)-->

Thanks, but no thanks. Although I am running low on toilet paper.

If I printed it out --- hmmmmm. -->

I'll let ya know! :D-->

[lindyhopper]

thank you Belle.

This is the first time I can really see what they are trying to do. The claims of them twisting the words and verses of the Bible to keep people "debt free" (really still in debt in many real ways) so that tehy can keep the ABS rolling in at higher levels are clearly confirmed in this teaching. The clarity comes with reading Chris's paper and realising that they had it before doing this teaching. Then seeing how they skirt and skoot around Rom. 13:6-8. The real explaination is right there and they had it after reading Chris's paper, but they make a clear attempt to make it say what they want it to say.

Debt is an unmet obligation. If you pay your house in full with cash it is not an obligation. If you have a morgage and you make your payments on time your obligation is met. If you don't it is debt according to the Bible. Once you pay it off it is no longer an obligation. To through in tithing and ABS just makes it all the more clear what they are doing.

The verses in Romans is talking about giving people the love and respect that is due them. It is an obligation that is continuous. You won't some day give a person all the love they are due. You need to constantly love and respect them. To not do that would be to fall in to debt. You would not be fulfulling your obligation. Financially it is the same way, this is where they twist it. If what they are saying is you owe your leaders dues (financial dues) but it is bad to be in debt for say a house and you should save until you can pay it in full, then you should save to pay all your ABS in full at once so you aren't in debt to your leaders. But that is not what it is saying. If it is an ongoing finaicial obligation, their twisted reasoning doesn't then fit.

I can't wait to go over this at some point with the family.

[Ham]

I'd like to see a REAL scholar get a hold of this thing..

[Belle]

quote:

So God equates the bondage of being in financial debt to the bondage of the law because in both cases the accounts are unsatisfied unless someone accepts Jesus as lord and believes that God raised him from the dead, then your debt is satisfied, because you have been redeemed from the hand of the enemy. In the case of the law men on their own didn’t have the means to satisfy the bill, the debt of the law because his carnal nature hindered him. He’d obey for a while, so on, so forth. It took JC to pay the full price of fulfilling the whole law and satisfying that debt for all men (as they believe). It might take time to sink in but as you go back over that and look at what does the English word “debt” mean. What does the Greek word “debt” mean? What weight does it carry, what characteristics does it allow? Then it just becomes electrifying to see that God uses financial terms to describe the bondage of the law.

"It might take some time to sink in...." Reminds me of craiggers standing up in the video of his class after talking about Eve and her lesbian encounter. He got this stupid grin on his face and said, "Don't you see it? Well, I do!" like that should be enough.

Rico is really saying "Just take my word for it."

No thanks, Rico. Your logic just isn't up to par. Debt does NOT mean only financial debt and you haven't proven that it does. Moreover, it is merely being behind on your obligation not necessarily just having an obligation. Maybe YOU need to think about it and let it sink in....

Lindy, it's amazing to me how easy it is to see through their illogic, twisting, manipulation and just plain b.s. now. I NEVER would have seen through it a few years ago.

[Belle]

We're a "HOW TO" ministry!

How many of you heard this? How many times have you heard it?

Can you point me to the part of Rico's teaching where he tells "HOW TO" buy a house with cash?

Oh, I'm sorry.... HE DOESN'T! He says that just maybe you aren't MEANT to have those red drapes, much less a window to put them on.

quote:

The American dream is not to own your own house or business. Debt is not the foundation upon which our country was built but was built on the freedom to choose to succeed or prevail. If that means to you owning a house, or a nice car, or anything else that’s on your heart, we’re not against it, TWI is not against it. Solomon had an abundance of riches beyond belief. It’s vital that we make sure that we understand that God is the one who set the framework for spiritual success, for success in living and that may or may not involve certain material things.

[Ham]

Belle, I'll group several comments here. Hope its not too long..

quote:

God is the one who set the framework for spiritual success, for success in living and that may or may not involve certain material things.

And who is he (or they) to dictate whether certain material things are "involved" in MY life?

quote:

You won't some day give a person all the love they are due. You need to constantly love and respect them. To not do that would be to fall in to debt. You would not be fulfulling your obligation

How soon they have forgotten this "debt".

How about Mrs. Wierwille, and many, many others?

Oh yes. THEY define to whom or what THEY owe.

Pretty convenient..

Lessee.. telling an elderly lady if she didn't like how they treated her relatives, that she could just leave her home and go live with the "cop outs".

They have a debt in regard to respect that they will NEVER be able to repay. Never.

quote:

It IS available in our day and time, in our culture, to have our needs met and still do it according to God’s word.

I note no promises held out in all of this- just another stupid "it is available".

It is "available" to go to the moon, too.

quote:

the way people take care of their physical things is the way they will take care of spiritual things.

Where in the world did they get that? I used to think this too, because it sounded so straight-forward and religious. What if you have no physical things? This concept would imply that you also would be given no spiritual things to take care of.

I have known people that have taken care of substantial riches, and spiritually, they are so spiritually discerning that God couldn't get through to them if he used a baseball bat.

Maybe more later..

[Belle]

quote:

It opens us up to the ability to serve one another, to be a “doulos”.

quote:

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

(An omission here), you cannot love your neighbor without first loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. It’s implied; it’s assumed that it’s already being done. It’s emphasizing more abundantly how we practically manifest the love of and for God in the renewed mind in manifestation. We bring it into manifestation. In Galatians, JC as the red thread is the believer’s righteousness and righteousness is the ability to be right and to do right.

And what, pray tell, Rico, do you TWIts do to show love for your neighbor?

Do you help those who are arrested and need to be bailed out of jail or do you leave them there for three days?

Do you keep your promises to take care of widows or do you ship them off to other relatives?

Do you keep your promises to let people visit where their loved ones are buried, or do you sue them?

Do you keep your children safe, or do you just "relocate" child molestors?

Do you help your "joe believers" move, or do you just leave it to other "joe believers" to figure it out?

Do you help those who follow your teachings faithfully help when they are down and need financial or material assistance or do you just tell them "go be warmed"?

Do you share the truth with your followers, or do you wait till you're about to be exposed to tell them just enough to make them think you're keeping them informed "A to Z and Soup to Nuts"?

I think we all know the answer to those questions, don't we, Rico? ;)-->

What a mighty fine example for people to follow!

[Kevlar2000]

quote:

The American dream is not to own your own house or business.

Says who? I don't remember that from The Word ©. In fact, I don't remember God or Jesus talking much about America at all! Hmmmmmm...

I really shouldn't even comment on this, because their convoluted position on the subject is idiotic. At best.

The most I could or would say about this is, What you have or don't have is absolutely none of their business. Ever. Even if they're paying your salary. Once you're paid, it belongs to you. Not them.

The whole "stick-my-nose-where-it-doesn't-belong" thing really chaps my bell bottoms. It's just really designed to put "disciples" into a permanent state of dependent adolescence. "Mommy and Daddy, can I please spend MY money on something I need, pretty please?"

Unbelievabull!

[dmiller]

quote:

Solomon had an abundance of riches beyond belief.

I think he sounds a little jealous here, eh? --> -->

[Oakspear]

There were several leaders in our area who were always talking about how you can own a house and not be in debt.

One was a guy who was up top his foot in debt, including loans on a number of rental properties. He was very prosperous financially, but he got that way by being in TWI's definition of debt. By the time he got involved in TWI he was able to liquidate his rentals and pay off his home with the profits. He was held up as an example of God "prospering" a family, but his prosperity came BEFORE he took PFAL.

The other guy was always coming up with complicated schemes for buying a house without being in TWI-defined debt. No one ever knew anyone who tried one of these schemes. HE owned a home, but he inherited it from his parents when they died in a car wreck. He was also held up as an example of God "prospering" a family.

[lindyhopper]

quote:

The verses in Romans is talking about giving people the love and respect that is due them. It is an obligation that is continuous. You won't some day give a person all the love they are due. You need to constantly love and respect them. To not do that would be to fall in to debt. You would not be fulfulling your obligation.

Actually, I worded that wrong last night. The point is that your account with love will never be balanced, will never be perfectly met. That is why it says, "owe no man anything but to love." The other things it speaks of are to be obligations that you don't fall behind on. But they are still continual obligations that are to be met you are owe that to people whether they are "leaders" or any other person.

quote:

So God equates the bondage of being in financial debt to the bondage of the law because in both cases the accounts are unsatisfied unless someone accepts Jesus as lord and believes that God raised him from the dead, then your debt is satisfied, because you have been redeemed from the hand of the enemy. In the case of the law men on their own didn’t have the means to satisfy the bill, the debt of the law because his carnal nature hindered him. He’d obey for a while, so on, so forth. It took JC to pay the full price of fulfilling the whole law and satisfying that debt for all men (as they believe). It might take time to sink in but as you go back over that and look at what does the English word “debt” mean. What does the Greek word “debt” mean? What weight does it carry, what characteristics does it allow? Then it just becomes electrifying to see that God uses financial terms to describe the bondage of the law.

So its bad to be in debt, yet God set up an entire system of debt that could not be fully paid through the Law? That make so sence at all. If it is so wrong in God's eyes, then why did he do that?

[Belle]

quote:

Well as you know for well over a year we have been searching and re-searching God’s word regarding the issue of debt as well as with all Biblical research it’s vital that we approach God’s word with an open mind and an open heart with diligence and allow the word to speak.

Well over a year??? Is God's word really all that complicated? I think not! Why wasn't it researched prior to the mandates and legalism about not being in debt were enforced? Why all the second guessing? Because you know you're wrong???

I thought we were taught that an "open mind" was bad and allowed devil spirits in to influence us incorrectly. I thought our minds were supposed to be jammed shut like a steel trap door? Has that changed? Is it "available" to look at and consider other doctrines, churches and beliefs now?

didn't think so.

quote:

We never approach a subject with preconceived ideas of how it should turn out and that’s why it takes time on matters and that’s why it’s been over a year and a half since we began at the subject to really delve into what does the word have to say

Tell the truth, Rico. It's been that long because it takes that long to figure out how to make the verses fit what you want them to say and to avoid having to admit you were wrong.

[Belle]

quote:

So its bad to be in debt, yet God set up an entire system of debt that could not be fully paid through the Law? That make so sence at all. If it is so wrong in God's eyes, then why did he do that?

Very good question, Lindy! I'd love to hear their answer to this one.

[Belle]

quote:

We have required this for participation in various classes and functions in the ministry. Being debt free is among the qualifications for the participation in the advanced class, coordination of a household fellowship and other rolls of service and leadership.

Isn't there a deposition or notes from COURT where Rosie herself says that it's NOT a requirement for people in leadership roles or entering WC to be debt free? I think there is.....would that be lying in a court of law?

[Ham]

May not ever get it to stick though.

Probably take two or three days establishing what counsel defines as "debt"..

Probably end up being similar to WJ Clinton's definition of "sex".

[Belle]

Okay, I just checked and she WANTED to purjer herself, but didn't:

quote:

q. Does TWI have a teaching on debt?

a. Yes, it does.

q. And what is the teaching?

a. Basically the teaching centers around the Book of Romans in the Bible and it's "Owe no man anything except to love one another."....We start in the OT...then you get to the fact that people got born again, had more power in the NT and we get to "Owe no man anything."

q. so what is the teaching that is communicated based upon those various biblical references you just gave us?

a. Well, that we should not be in debt.

q. Now, is that a requirement to be a follower of TWI, that you not be in debt?

a. No. A lot of our followers are in debt. But we teach the teachings to help them get out.

q. Okay. And if you do -- Is being out of debt a requirement for anything?

a. NO.

q. How about if you want to be a member of leadership? Is there any requirement there?

a. Yes, there is. If you want to be a leader, then our leaders are all debt free.

I do think these answers would be up for debate though:

quote:

q. How about personal life, does TWI tell people who to marry or who to divorce or anything of that nature?

a. No

q. Tell pepole where to live?

a. No

q. Finances. Does TWI monitor people's finances?

a. No, they don't.

q. Do you tell people where to invest their money?

a. no

So much more, but that's a serious choo-choo. Just wanted to clarify that I mis-spoke on the debt comment by the fox.

[Ham]

"Ms (?) Rivenwoof, you are instructed to answer the question"

"At no time, never ever, did I not ever refuse to tell the truth to this great court of law..."

Prosecuter: "Ms (?) Woof, please answer the question.

Rosie: "I object"

"I have at all times and in every circumstances in my efforts not given a proper answer, and I do not refuse to not to do so never again.

Edited to give nots and nevers there places where they never should have not been to begin with.

Edited July 12, 2005 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

Sorry Belle, your choo choos are so much fun, heh heh.

If that gave you a headache reading it, think what it did to me writing it..

[lindyhopper]

quote:

Memo: Board of Directors: We do not have a policy that mandates what people do with their personal finances. We do have teaching on debt and God’s will for His people to prosper. We have required this for participation in various classes and functions in the ministry. Being debt free is among the qualifications for the participation in the advanced class, coordination of a household fellowship and other rolls of service and leadership.

Isn't that what a policy and a mandate are? Why yes it is.

Mandate- transative verb: To make mandatory, as by law; decree or require:

policy- noun: A plan or course of action, as of a government, political party, or business, intended to influence and determine decisions, actions, and other matters

Talk about double talk. Spinning like a top they are.

How many wayfers see this or see and ignore? I guess I probably would have been one of them.

[Oakspear]

TWI weasels around their requirements on so many things by claiming that their followers have free will to follow the teachings or not, but that if they do not, then the consequenses are on their own heads.

Sure, you can be in debt, but you will not be allowed to be a leader, enter their "outreach" program, take any classes beyond their foundational offering, or participate in the events of TWI beyond those open to the general public. You will, if you continue to attend local fellowships or listen to taped teachings from HQ, be subject to derision and called weak and "off the Word" for exercising your free will to be in debt. In short you have the "free will" to be a pariah.