Rico's Debt Teaching to WC - Transcription/sort of

[Belle]

This is "sort of" a transcription of the teaching tape Rico made for the WC. This was not widely shared in TWI. You'll see so much hypocracy and so much, I'm not going to comment. Just yet.... :D-->

The teaching is long and many pages, so I'm going to post a page at a time as I get time. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves in the meantime. :)-->

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Well as you know for well over a year we have been searching and re-searching God’s word regarding the issue of debt as well as with all Biblical research it’s vital that we approach God’s word with an open mind and an open heart with diligence and allow the word to speak. We never approach a subject with preconceived ideas of how it should turn out and that’s why it takes time on matters and that’s why it’s been over a year and a half since we began at the subject to really delve into what does the word have to say and how we……(?????). In our ministry, we let the word speak, we utilize those keys, that’s the foundation of our ministry, that’s who we are, it’s the foundation and basis for what we do and that’s been good for sixty years. So the goal through the goal of first looking into any subject, especially this subject, is to get to God’s holy ground, that’s what we are looking for and THEN walk in believing on the word.

In the last year and a half we have we have compiled volumes of information from various sources. Everything has been considered in the spirit of meekness and evaluated on its own merit but allows we use the word as the touchstone for truth because that’s our standard. Last March, after the 2002 leaders’ meeting, a progress report on what work had been done to that point while researching the issue of debt was presented to the WC. At that time that teaching was based on a 115 page report that was still a work in progress a year ago.

Then in Sept 2002, another special teaching was presented to the WC on the topic and since then we have been taking the time to work the subject and make it our own. Last Sept, rosie stated, “There are whole sets of different experiences available, yet God gave us 1 Cor. 1:10 – Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of our Lord JC, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement. We can reach unified biblical understanding if we approach the topic with an open mind and accurate biblical research. Let’s accept the biblical challenge and re-evaluate once and for all where God’s holy ground is, then, all stand on it.”

We have already shared this information with our local area HFCs and assistants. All those who were present expressed their support for the soundness of the proper dividing of the word on this matter. Now we are ready to move into the next phase which is to present the word on the category of debt to you, the fellow believer, for your consideration. You are the heart and soul of our great ministry and we owe to you the resources of our 60 years of biblical research and teaching and fellowship and everything that has gone into this project, this subject.

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That's most of the intro......

[learning]

Belle, thanks for this. I am excited to read the rest of this paper and see what happens and where it happens.

I tried looking quickly in the Rico M's secret paper thread but never found out just when this all happened? When did this get taught, when did Chris Jordan do a teaching?

im still learning

[smurfette]

I tried to read through the notes and started doing the above. (I have a copy of my own)

[Belle]

Learning, I'm not sure about the actual dates. Chris wrote her paper way before TWI came out with this. In fact if you read Chris's paper first you can easily see how this is basically a rebuttal (not even a good one at that) to Chris's paper.

This month is the one year anniversary of my divorce and I listened to the tape very shortly before the divorce. Not sure how long before that the teaching actually came out, though.

What I don't get is why he speaks so proudly of taking over a year to research something. If the word is as simple and the keys to research so plain and accurate then it shouldn't take so long....especially for a "research ministry". What took so long was figuring out how to twist, spin and pervert what the Bible really says since it's not what they want it to say.

Here's the next part of the tape:

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Memo: Board of Directors: We do not have a policy that mandates what people do with their personal finances. We do have teaching on debt and God’s will for His people to prosper. We have required this for participation in various classes and functions in the ministry. Being debt free is among the qualifications for the participation in the advanced class, coordination of a household fellowship and other rolls of service and leadership. The fact that a person has not yet fulfilled the requirements for a particular class or a particular level of service is not a negative assessment of their life. All of us are continually growing and we don’t compare people with one another. Our fellowships are for spiritual nurture and growth providing the most loving and helpful environment we can at ever level of teaching and service. As they advance, the doors that open to them are the ones that are best suited to their current maturity level.”

We are gonna lay the ground work for the understanding and application of biblical principle in our day and time by searching previous administrations and specifically the law. In Romans 15, not a new verse to any of us.

Romans 15:4 – 6

For whatsoever things were written aforetime……that ye may with one mind and one mouth….

We want to get to the place that we agree together, that we think the same thing, we speak the same thing regarding what the word says about debt and then we stand together and when we do that, it brings glory to our God. The OT lends insight into our day of grace by laying the ground work, the foundations for what was to come.

Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ….

(unintelligible)…..as looking at other contexts relating to debt in the word, one simple and accurate way in defining biblical debt is “to have one’s own account with unsatisfied financial or moral obligations”. okay, just one note: THIS IS VERY, VERY SIMILAR TO CHRIS’S DEFINITION OF DEBT!! Look at Matt 18 and we’ll look at one example:

Matt 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat saying, Pay me that thou owest.

So, is this a satisfied financial or moral obligation? Apparently he wanted that debt satisfied. Here is just one example of financial debt, one person owes somebody else money or material things. Here the Greek word of debt is ophilo. Ophilo is also translated debt, debtor. It means “to owe, be under obligation.” You’ll see it translated “ought, ______, should” indicating obligation. It even means at times depending on the context, “to fail to duty” or “to be bound, to be guilty”. Now understanding that it could be many things depending on the context but you can see the relationship, the concept here of all these words. Bullinger defines ophilo as “to owe anything to anyone.” He defines “debtor” as “he who owes anything or is under obligation on any account.” He goes on to say that the use of this word involves the idea that the debtor is one who must expiate his guilt, until he satisfies his guilt or debt. So we can see the concept here in Matthew of someone having an account that is unsatisfied and they need to satisfy it from a financial perspective. Now let’s look at an example of a moral obligation in 2 Thess. A moral concept just means what’s right and what’s wrong.

2 Thess: 1:3 We are bound (ophilo) to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith growteth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth.

So here in verse 3 we see that the “we are bound” refer to Paul, Silvanus and Timotheus. There is a debt there. Is it a financial debt? It’s a moral obligation. It’s debt to thank God for the Thess. A moral obligation, a duty, a moral debt that needs to be satisfied, to thank God for those people. So how long does this last? For as long as those people were meeting the requirements, for as long as those Thess. Were faithful people and doing what Paul just got done saying about them. They were indebted to thank God for those folks. See the word there for “meet”, it’s axious, of equal balance. Like on a scale when both sides are equivalent, that’s axios. , equilibrium. So we see this concept in our minds of the scale being balanced out and that in this verse there is an equation being set up. The Thess. Were faithful therefore they had an obligation to pray for them, to thank God for them. If they were thankful and they were not being prayed for, the moral obligation would go on that man. If they were thanking God for their faithfulness and they weren’t being faithful, the moral obligation on the Thess. Would be unmatched because they’re not doing what they should be doing. So what were they doing? They believed and their believing was growing exceedingly to the point that their love was abounding to everyone. So Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, they satisfied a moral obligation to God every single time they thanked God for them. That’s a biblical definition of what is debt, moral or financial obligation to anyone or anything.

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[Belle]

How is debt introduced and dealt with in OT times

First thing to note is that God does not initiate the financial concept of debt for his people. Fiancial debt is an ancient and worldly idea that came to God’s people by way of the Gentiles. Remember, that before the law written down by Moses, God’s people had been in Egypt for quite sometime, right? Long enough for their own culture and their own beliefs to be influenced by the other concepts, including financial debt. That’s where financial debt was heavily introduced into God’s people and into Israel. It was by the Egyptians. As a result of this influence and the effect, the impact it had on God’s people, THEN God instituted regulations that are recorded in the law regarding the issue of financial debt that would identify and manage both parts. Identify debt and manage the effects for his people.

Exodus 22:25 If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.

Exodus 22:26 If thou at all take thy neighbour’s raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down.

“If” is indicative of permission, if you choose to do this. That means that they were permitted to lend money to God’s people. “usurer” means “to lend or by reprocity borrow on security or interest. It can also be translated “creditor or to exact”. It can even be translated “extortioner” depending on the circumstances. Of course it means “to lend, to be usurer, to lend out or to be a taker of usury.”

“Usury” is simply “interest paid above and beyond what was actually loaned.” God makes it very plain, “If you choose to loan money to any of my people that is what? POOR!

“pledge” to collect collateral on a loan. If it is necessary.

“sun goeth down” means that you return it to hom whenever he needs it no matter what the item may be.

Exodus 22:27 For that is his covering only, it is his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep? And it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear; for I am gracious.

[Ham]

quote:

At that time that teaching was based on a 115 page report that was still a work in progress a year ago.

Unbelievable. One hundred and fifteen pages.

Like to see them do one like that on adultery..

[Belle]

Y'all, I'm already on page 12 of typing these notes and we haven't even gotten to the gospels and epistles yet. If anyone wants a complete word doc of these notes, just PT or e-mail me and I'll send it to you when I finish typing it.

Now, shall we pick up where we left off?

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Well, what’s the context here? The person borrowing the money is poor. He doesn’t have anything, so he can’t have much to give you in the way of collateral if he’s poor. Poor here means “poor” not humble, they don’t have anything.

There have been a lot of influences in the Egyptian culture that have crept in and that’s where this idea came from. God identifies it and begins to manage it right away so that it doesn’t get out of hand because God’s idea was never to impose interest on His people.

In “The Lifestyle of a Believer”, page 13 “There are three things that justify a man’s taking money from another person:

1) The law of exchange: that one person gives another money in exchange for merchandise.

2) The law of service: that one person gives another service in exchange for money.

3) The law of love: that one person out of love freely gives money to another who has freely and willingly given to him

So ask yourself, where does borrowing money and living in debt fit into these three categories? Law of exchange, law of service, law of love? The whole concept of God regulating financial debt begins here in the book of Exodus. So right away, in the Law Administration, God, after breaking the children out of Egypt where they have been so heavily influenced and impacted by the culture of financial debt and usury, interest; we see God beginning to untangle his people from the influences of the world. Well, isn’t that what God always does? He does it in the Church Epistles too. Doesn’t he encourage us not to be entangled? Many of God’s people have largely lost the knowledge of how big our God is. They lost the knowledge of El Shaddai, the God that does bountifully supply and protect. They lost the knowledge of Jehovah which is God I covenant relations to His people. They lost the knowledge of this in the functioning reality of their lives. So here, in the first reference to financial debt regarding God’s people, it’s in relation to the poor and destitute. That’s the context, in other words, people who have to borrow in order to survive. Sometimes circumstances overwhelm people, that’s just life, it happens. God knows that so He instituted the relief for those extreme situations.

Seven stipulations regarding debt of how God dealt with debt in the OT.

1. Debt is only discussed in connection with the poor and destitute.

quote:

Leviticus 25:35 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. (fallen….Heb. his hand faileth & relieve: Heb. Strengthen)

Leviticus 25:36 Take thou no usury of him, or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.

v. 37 Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.

v.38 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the lans of Canaan, and to be your God.

Clearly, the context here is someone who is poor, destitute. These are not terms that conjure up any kind of imagery of prosperity. It is people who have fallen on hardship and there not to be taken advantage of by the fellow believers if they’re loaned something.

[Belle]

2. They would borrow only from fellow believers whose motive was compassion.

3. Loans were to be lent at no interest because none of God’s people were to profit from the hardship of another and then you were only to borrow from fellow believers in order to survive. It was to be loaned interest free based on compassion and the covenant community of Israel.

4. Debts were to last no longer than seven years. It’s addressed to the people making the loan not the borrower. It wasn’t, “I owe you money and we start counting seven years.” The seven years remained constant; they just didn’t begin with every loan. So God sets the standard that debt between believers is not to last more than seven years and on top of the previous standard of usury was still in tact.

quote:

Deuteronomy 15:3 Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again; but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release.

v.4Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the lord shall greatly bless thee in the land which the lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it. (Save…: or, to the end that there be no poor among you)

v.5 Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.

v.6 For the Lord thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee; and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

v.7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

v.8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.

v.9 Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicket heart, saying, the seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him naught; and he cry unto the Lord against thee, and it be sin unto thee. (thought: Heb. word) (Wicked: Heb. Belial)

v.10 Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the Lord thy god shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto.

[Belle]

In other words, it’s six years into the seventh year. We don’t really own anything (the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof) so when it comes to our interaction with fellow believers starting back in the OT, the motive is supposed to be compassion and love.

quote:

Deut. 15:6 For the Lord thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee; and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

Not borrow! Why? Because God is sovereign. He wants to provide for his people. God’s passionate desire is to provide to those that call themselves believers, at all times, in all situations, in all decisions. He says that it is OK to borrow to those that are not part of Israel, why? Because they are not God’s top priority. I know that this is not a popular view in denominalationism and tradition. Not a respecter of persons but a respecter of believing and people who believe and call themselves believers. He wants to provide for them and out of that abundance He wants them to prosper and vitalize that. If that means making money off of those who are outside, that’s OK with God. But when people go outside of the household or outside Israel to get their need met, it starts to take away from this foundational truth that God wants to provide for His people.

quote:

Deut. 15:10 Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the lord thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto.

“thy works” You are not going to be worse off, in other words, God who is just. If you loan money to another believer because they have need and you didn’t get that money back. If you acted out of love and compassion there is no way that in God’s justice you are gonna be worse off from the situation.

quote:

Deut. 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor and to thy needy, in thy land.

v.12 And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.

v.13And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty.

v.14 Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the lord thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him.

Does it say that he needs to give it all to him? No, of course not.

quote:

v.15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the lord thy God redeemed thee; therefore I command thee this thing to day.

A slave, interesting that he reminds them that they use to be enslaved and now they’re free and what does the context fall in? Financial debt, identifying it, managing it and then he brings up the point that they used to be enslaved but now they’re not, now they’re free.

5. Debt brings about a decrease in a man’s freedom and productivity for God even to the point of slavery (if it gets that bad).

quote:

Prov 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. (the lender: Heb. the man that lendeth)

Pretty plain to see isn’t it? I think it’s fascinating that this verse comes right after verse six. Remember the order of the words in the word is perfect. You see, this must be fundamentally important to us because Proverbs is the only book of the bible written specifically to young people. It’s to give them guidance, direction and a foundation for a belief system as they grow. And right here in Proverbs, verse seven. How in opposition, in contrast to being in debt is having surplus to lend to worldly borrowers is a blessing.

quote:

Prov. 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. (train…or, chatechise) (in…Heb: in his way)

6. Having an abundance to lend to the Gentiles was a blessing from God for obedience to his principles for living.

Deu. 28 – the book of Deuteronomy was written in the 40th year of Moses’ ministry with Israel. He was about 120 years old at that time. What the book of Deut. summarizes is the many aspects of what Israel was to do and what they were to believe. In chapter 28, God lays out the blessings and the cursings of the law. The blessings for obedience and the cursings or consequences for disobedience.

quote:

Deu. 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: (it’s the blessings of obedience)

v.2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the lord thy God.

v.3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

v.12 The lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

[Belle]

It’s a result. The blessing and benefits of doing all his commandments is that we won’t have to borrow. Israel was to be a showcase to the rest of the world, a witness to the rest of the world. God’s care and his abundant provision when they obeyed. He provided for approximately two and a half million that walked out of Egypt. He provided for them and their progeny in the wilderness for about forty years. So God is certainly not lacking in His ability of His willingness to supply for His people under any conditions. Israel was to be the showcase to give God the glory for His goodness, for His power, for His love and His ability to provide. Remember that God’s will is abundance for our lives but when you remember that, remember that not all abundance is of or from god. When we have abundance that is from God, there will be all the blessings that come along with it (i.e. joy, peace, thankfulness) because there are the right conditions from whence it comes. When the abundance that we take part in is not from God, there will not be those corresponding blessings that go along with it.

quote:

Deut. 28:13

And the lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if (the condition) that thou hearken unto the commandments of the lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and do them.

v.14And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

So clearly God wants those blessings to come from the obedience to the word. He wants us to be the head, not the tail. You see, the head is in control, that’s what we are after. God desires that we are always in control of our own lives; we are not under anyone’s thumb.

BTMS “Council of the Lord” pg. 61

quote:

One of the big questions always is: do our works glorify Him? Those who are walking in the spirit will constantly keep glorifying God with their actions, while man’s work will ever turn our thoughts to man and direct our attention to man’s walk or to man’s acts or to man’s experiences. Man’s work is always the end for those who glory in themselves. It is the spirit’s work which glorifies God and enables man to do God’s work. The question we must continue to ask ourselves day by day is: Does our walk glorify God? This is the one and only test we may apply. This test tells us either our walk is under the direction of the lord or whether we are simply acting by our self-centered senses, diverted from God’s spirit by another spirit.”

[Belle]

So ask yourself: Does someone going into financial debt glorify God? If so, then why are there consequences? Let’s read them:

quote:

Deut. 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the lord thy god, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

You see, there are consequences, the results of unbelief, disobedience of Israel. When someone from without had control then undesirable results took place. There are a lot of consequences listed here but we will be brief.

quote:

Deut. 28:43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.

Again, context: when they disobeyed.

quote:

v.44 He shall lend to thee and thou shalt not lend to him; he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

You see, God considers the believer that has to borrow outside the household a curse, not a financial advantage.

quote:

v.45 moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the lord thy god, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee;

v.46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

v.47 Because thou servedst not the lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;

v.48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things; and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck until he have destroyed thee.

It’s a sign to all generations, that when they got to the point of borrowing from unbelievers, they were on the wrong side of the track. Remember, no one can serve God and mammon. You can’t serve two masters. There’s always strings attached. They proclaim with their mouths, Israel did, that God was their provider and protector but with their actions they went to the world and indebted themselves, even to the point of slavery at times. Israel was to observe to do all the commandments, the statutes, but not just one or two, not just the ones they felt like doing. They were responsible to faithfully believe the law and it’s good to know that God didn’t set them up for failure. They had the ability to be faithful. Not perfect but to faithfully keep the law. God knew that they would fall short so he provided sacrificial and ceremonial cleansings for the people ministered by the priests day by day.

[Belle]

The law administration was the stop gap measure until Christ came, until he came to fulfill the law perfectly and redeem back god’s people from the curse of the law. It was his last ditch effort to keep man in a redeemable state. The curse of the law hung over Israel’s head constantly but it did not issue in calamity or consequences until they turned their backs o God in disobedience and even then the consequences were not always evident immediately. God had to allow it because his hands of blessing and protection were tied.

JC, now, has redeemed God’s people from the curse of the law. The curse, singular, there is only one curse but it’s manifested in many ways. The curse just means any kind of consequences that the adversary had access to, to meet out. JC paid a ransom to set God’s people free from the bondage of the law. But to be redeemed from the curse of the law, this is an important point here and everything we are looking at and studying, to be redeemed from the curse of the law does not mean that we disregard the principles and the lessons of the schoolmaster, of the tutor and the word says that the law is our tutor until Christ. So do we disregard the principles and lessons of the schoolmaster and expect no spiritual effect in our lives? Even in our day and time it’s cause and effect, that’s what this is, cause and effect. Is cause and effect still in effect today? Sure it is. Now maybe the spiritual effect is more subtle in our day and time. I know that there is an abundance of grace and mercy in our day and time. We can be thankful for that but because of that we don’t want to use that for an occasion to the flesh either. Cause and effect are still in place.

quote:

Gal. 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Cause and effect. What we sow, we reap. So consequences, just like blessings are not always immediately evident. If nothing else happens when we are disobedient to the word we stand to not earn eternal rewards that we could have earned if we were obeying the word at the time. There’s a spiritual effect for disobedience, we do not earn eternal rewards. For that period of time we are giving up eternal rewards we could have earned during that period of time if we would have remained faithful.

quote:

Deut. 28:16 Cursed shall thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

Enumerates the impact of the curse (before it was blessed in the city). It’s one curse but many of the manifestations are listed out in warning to God’s people.

quote:

Deut. 28:43 – 44

[smurfette]

My one comment at this point:

If "believers" are supposed to have lives that glorify God....they must proudly have a "Don't laugh it's paid for" bumper sticker next to their twit bumper sticker on their junky car. I know of several people who almost lost their jobs due to junker cars that kept breaking down. (So they were late or unable to make it to work.) That makes for a great example too.

[Oakspear]

They don't have a "policy" on debt and what people are to do with their finances, YET, they have a teaching about not being in debt, which is a REQUIREMENT for certain classes, these classes being the bread and butter of TWI.

Weasel words, plain and simple.

[Weout1200]

quote:

The fact that a person has not yet fulfilled the requirements for a particular class or a particular level of service is not a negative assessment of their life.

SAY WHAT?!?!?!

Talk about blatant bull2#!t!!!!

You were treated like snot if you hadn't gone to the advance class by a certain time, or tortured yourself through WAP X number of times...and that's just with those sorry, boring classes! Heaven forbid if you told those *******s you had some personal problems; you were fair game!

[Nottawayfer]

They are just covering their arses by saying things that don't make them look like they are controlling people's lives. We all know that it is not done that way. I was in until 2002, and people were penalized for debt. I knew some very loving FCs who were no longer FCs once they decided to buy a home and acquire a mortgage. These people were not allowed to go the the ACS that year either.

Another Corps couple I knew were dropped from the Corps and then were spoken badly of by the LC to people who had been in this couple's area. This couple was dropped because they wanted TWI to fairly see their research done in the financial category. These people were very savvy in the financial realm, it was their profession!! They weren't even the kind of people who were controversial in their presentations; they just wanted realistic facts taken in to consideration before making a decision. TWI decided what they wanted to deem doctrine.

[Belle]

7. The consequences for disobedience was having to borrow from unbelievers, those without the household. As a result, God’s people were the tail and not the head, they were below rather than above, they were not in control.

quote:

Deut. 28:45-47 …all these curses shall come upon thee….

See how debt can affect your service; no joyfulness, no gladness of heart for the abundance of all things. Why? Because the abundance was not all from God. Obviously those without had abundance because they had enough to lend to the believers. They had abundance but when we talk about the abundance available to believers that’s of God and for God…obviously not. Some abundance comes with a price that ties and binds rather than blesses and helps. When it is all from God there will be that joy and gladness, all that’s gonna be there, attached to it.

quote:

Deut. 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the lord shall send against thee…..until he have destroyed thee.

So there definite lack being expressed here and the yoke is the bondage, the slavery that God wants us to avoid. So in this first section here, we see that the scripture clearly speaks in negative terms regarding personal debt. This is what the law lays out for us. The lessons of the schoolmaster are before us to glean from.

I understand that we are not under the law anymore but the lessons are still there for us to glean from and we don’t want to throw out the lessons of the law for the sake of the church epistles but we want to consider the lessons of the law in order to get a greater understanding of what is written to us in our day and time.

[Belle]

Transitional & Church Epistle Perspectives – Debt

We’ve looked at some aspects of the law, how God identified, how he regulated and managed the issue of debt with regards to Israel and of course, all things written aforetime are written for our learning. So we learned from the lessons of the law and then gave the learning of the lessons of the law and we utilized that to give us a greater understanding and ability to live the higher law of love in the church epistles, the grace administration. Now transitional and church epistles perspectives on debt.

There are several categories that we need to consider when gleaning from the OT and then looking for proper application of those principles in other settings.

1. They are strictly for our learning. Such as items that are held in abeyance till a future time, i.e. the blessings and judgment of Israel. When we read about those things in the OT, they have nothing to do with the grace administration. We can learn of it, be knowledgeable of it but it’s strictly for our learning. It has nothing to do with being applicable in our day at time.

2. Things that are superceded by the epistles. Those things that are no longer our standard..i.e. the dietary laws, the keeping of the Sabbath.

3. Those things that are literally carried through to our administration. Those are the things for instance that are specifically stated, such as “Thou shall not commit murder or idolatry or witchcraft of drunkenness.” Now note that we don’t carry out the physical consequences in our administration but those are things that are addressed to us in the NT, the church epistles. This is the third category to consider.

4. Something that is literal in the law but figurative for us. Examples would be salt on sacrifices; landmarks on properties. For us landmarks of the renewed mind, we don’t allow our thinking to go outside the borders, the framework of the word; Passover vs. communion.

5. Items that are not specifically stated in the epistles but they are implied, in other words, things that are commanded in the law that are not stated in the epistles but the principle is there and it is implied that it should be done.

An obvious one would be tithing, it’s not noted in the church epistles that we should tithe. In the epistles, higher concepts take center stage. The sharing of our abundance, plurality giving, those things. Well, you can’t share above and beyond the 10%, your abundance, if you’re not sharing 10% in the first place, it’s not possible. So it’s implied. So the question is, where does debt fit in? Where does the concept of debt fit in our day and time. With an understanding of the lessons of the schoolmaster, the law, our tutor, regarding debt, we can now track the proper transition and see the appropriate application in love that’s now available. See, JC, as I mentioned before, was given the responsibility to keep the law, not faithfully like Israel was, but perfectly. He had to do it perfectly; He had to fulfill the law. He had to usher in the grace administration and prepare his followers for the grace administration.

[Belle]

He was personally present for only about a year for his public ministry. That’s all the time he really had to prepare and help transition Israel through a very critical point in time. So it’s important to know that we glean or gather little by little that which we can glean with patient effort some of the records of the gospels because they contain the key statement by JC that reflect the right interpretation and understanding of the law. What he taught helps us understand to properly interpret the law and then further develop a proper biblical perspective on debt for the church epistles. Remember, the church epistles are grounded and settled on the foundations of the OT scriptures, on Christ and the book of Acts and of course Acts is the church epistles happening. The law or the law assumes like tithing. There assumes that they’re already in operation or are already being done. Or the ten commandments, they’re immutable laws that in principle at least follow through, they’re just assumed that they are being done.

Here’s a key verse:

quote:

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

To not negate this, to think this way, it is inappropriate and the word “destroy” is used twice here to establish that he has not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The word “destroy” means to dissolve. JC didn’t come to dissolve the law because the law is foundational and that’s upon which we reach to the higher level of understanding of the church epistles. Dissolve means to dis-unite the parts of anything or put an end to. JC didn’t come to disunite the parts of the law or put an end to the law in that sense. We know that he is the end of the law. We know that he redeemed us from the curse of the law and the bondage of the law.

That’s important to distinguish or he would have said, “Don’t pay any attention to the OT scriptures anymore.” Another way the word destroy could be understood is “to overthrow”. JC didn’t come to overthrow the law. The law is a beautiful, systematic progression that God has laid out, building towards our greater understanding of the church epistles. To destroy also means “to render vain” or “to bring to naught”. JC didn’t come to render vain or bring to naught the law. It means “to subvert or deprive of force. It’s a building block, the law. In contrast to destroying, JC came to fulfill it.

Another familiar word here is fulfilled. It’s the word pleroo: to make full or perform fully, to leave nothing undone. JC completed and accomplished the law and he left nothing undone, every iota of every specific detail that was necessary was fulfilled. He completed it and did it perfectly. “Pleroo” means to fill to the top so that nothing shall be wanting, it’s the full measure. Israel wasn’t asked to fulfill it, they were asked to keep it faithfully and there’s really a difference there. It took JC, not only being faithful, but to fulfill it completely without sin, without spot, without blemish. That’s what will require us to transfer into the epistles. And then, in order to transition into the understanding, the deeper understanding and the higher level of the standard of the church epistles.

We have to understand that there is a close relationship of the material and the spiritual. Remember how the word of God separates? (Heb 4:12) Well, why is that significant? Because it’s mighty hard to tell where soul stops and spirit begins. They’re so closely aligned but there is a difference. JC teaches the timeless truth here regarding the stewardship of money and the word and it’s necessary to understand that close relationship in our pursuit of a biblical perspective on debt in the church epistles. Luke 16. Why did JC use the physical to explain the spiritual? Because there is a close connection to them. It wasn’t random that he chose financial and physical matters to explain spiritual truths.

[Belle]

quote:

Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much; and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

v.11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? (mammon or riches)

Does it remind you of, what you sow you reap? Unrighteous mammon referring to that in which someone trusts, beyond what God says we are to trust; like riches, wealth; it’s talking about money. It’s not that it’s evil, it’s just that it’s unrighteous mammon, it’s not righteous, it’s not what God declares we’re put to our trust in but it’s something people do put their trust in (riches and wealth), financial matters. There is a level of financial maturity and stewardship that corresponds to the level of the word that someone is entrusted with.

If therefore he has not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to his trust the true riches? What are the true riches? The true riches are the things of God, spiritual knowledge, understanding. Once someone has been given a degree of the word, God holds them responsible to do it and serve others (and we’re not just talking about leadership here). This is a lesson for everyone. If someone is slothful and slobbingly in their physical carrying of their physical possessions, caring of their physical matters, they’re not usually the deepest person spiritually. They may have intellectual knowledge but that’s just the way it is. God is not going to open up and unfold the great spiritual truths to someone who can’t be trusted to take care of their own things. We may not own the newest, shiniest, brightest thing, but the key is, do we take care of the thing we own? That’s the point.

CSBP, page 9

quote:

There is a close and definite relationship between the material and the spiritual realms. You cannot separate the two, for they are inextricably bound by all the cords of life.

So here JC is bringing great understanding in expressing, tying together the physical and the spiritual.

quote:

Luke 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?

v.13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

And this is the category of being a doulos, a sold out bondslave by your personal decision. The two avenues for a bondslave to go – either God or the world.

[Belle]

quote:

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things and they derided him.

Covetousness here is really the key. It’s the same word as in 1 Timothy 6 renders “the love of money.” They had money in the depths of their thoughts, in the depths of their practices. So when they heard all these things that JC taught, they derided him, they turned their noses up at them (the words). JC did know what he was talking about and the reason he related the correlation between money and spiritual things was because he understood the common characteristic of both, that the way people take care of their physical things is the way they will take care of spiritual things.

quote:

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

v.37 Jesus said unto him, thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

v.38 This is the first and great commandment.

v.39 And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

v.40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All the lessons and the learning of the law build towards love, that’s the mature and higher plane of the epistles.

PFAL pg 214

quote:

Those epistles that are addressed to us must be specifically applied by us. All other scripture is for our learning. We do not have to keep the ten commandments. We have the law of the love of God in Christ Jesus. If we live love with the power of God in us and the renewed mind, will keep the ten commandments? Definitely. We will not go around breaking the ten commandments for we live on a higher plateau; we live by a greater law.

In the book of Acts, which chronicles the rise and expansion of the first century church, the physical needs of the believers are not addressed. Why are thy not addressed? Because the lessons of the schoolmaster were already being heeded, the lessons of the tutor were already taken to heart. They understood the issue of debt and how to identify it and how to manage it and the framework in which it was to be utilized. Who were the about 3000 men that were won on that first day? They were devout men out of every nation. That’s why it starts off in Acts chapter 2 as plurality giving (Acts 2:42-47).

It’s not tithing or getting out of debt because the lessons of the law, they were already faithful, those men. By Acts chapter 2 they were already moving on to the higher plane of already because of what was beneath them; the lessons that were heeded, the foundation of their belief system. They didn’t have a couple of generations of cultural devotion to overcome like we do. That’s not an excuse but it’s certainly a cultural devotion to overcome like we do. That’s not an excuse but it’s certainly a valid consideration. Basically, one of the reasons debt is so readily and easily acceptable now is because our government has been promoting it, our culture has been promoting it for years, especially since WWII. Before that it was not considered to be a good thing (see Uncle Harry’s book). When people incurred debt they were looked a little bit more down on, culturally speaking – pre WWII.

[Belle]

A proper understanding of the law serves like a stepping stone to the workman of the word that allows a higher level of spiritual understanding in the epistles that’s to be reached. These lessons from the schoolmaster, from the law, from the tutor, are for our learning and necessary, they’re vital and necessary for a proper spiritual foundation to be set and they enable us to mature and live the higher level, the law of love that’s found in the epistles. So if the law is to be ignored because it’s not addressed to us, then we have to ignore the fact that God saw fit to utilize 120 times the Greek word “nomas” which translates “law” in the KJV. 120 times the law is referred to in the church epistles.

So if the law is to be ignored because it’s not addressed to us, then we have to ignore those 120 times. We understand that Romans is the doctrinal basis, the foundational doctrinal epistle for the seven. Corinthians – practical error. Galatians – doctrinal error. They make up the foundational package, the refined walk of the believer. In Romans, Corinthians, Galatians the word “nomas” shows up 116 times of the 120. So how foundational a foundation is it as we transition into the logic, into the understanding of the epistles, that we bring the lessons of the law along as a foundation, bridging to that higher plane, eventually Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians.

quote:

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty, only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

We have been called unto liberty, to freedom. JC came to fulfill the law and call us to liberty. We have the choice. We can either utilize that freedom to succeed according to the standards of the word or we can use that freedom to go the way of the world and that’s an occasion to the flesh. It opens us up to the ability to serve one another, to be a “doulos”.

quote:

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

(An omission here), you cannot love your neighbor without first loving God with all your heart, should, mind and strength. It’s implied; it’s assumed that it’s already being done. It’s emphasizing more abundantly how we practically manifest the love of and for God in the renewed mind in manifestation. We bring it into manifestation. In Galatians, JC as the red thread is the believer’s righteousness and righteousness is the ability to be right and to do right.

quote:

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

“yoke of bondage” referring to the law

quote:

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is debtor to do the whole law.

If you want to do the law, if you want to be entangled with the yoke of bondage, then you are indebted, you have a moral obligation to do the whole law.

[Belle]

The word debt or debtor of course is one that is debt. The law was to be taken as a full, not as a partial proposition. The root word of “ophilo” and its derivatives are used in the church epistles 23 times. In Romans, Corinthians, Galatians it’s used 20 times of the 23. It’s foundational to our administration to understand this concept of debt and what it means. Emphasis again:

quote:

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

By using the word “debt” (remember, any thing in one’s own account that’s morally or financially unsatisfied). So you break those concepts by owing someone anything for any reason, including financial. By using the word “debt” in the book of Galatians here, the lack of financial needs to fulfill a debt and the bondage that results, is likened unto a lack of spiritual needs to fulfill the law. People don’t, it took JC, one with perfect blood. God’s only begotten son is the only one who ever had the means to fulfill the debt and the bondage that results from debt of the law. So God uses a financial term to describe spiritual truth.

The law identified sin for men, the details. We were all born dead in trespasses and sins, we were all legally owned by the adversary until we were bought back with a price, until we were redeemed by way of what JC accomplished. JC had the means to pay the price. Think about it. To satisfy any obligation you had to have the means to do so, right? Whether it’s financial or moral. So God equates the bondage of being in financial debt to the bondage of the law because in both cases the accounts are unsatisfied unless someone accepts Jesus as lord and believes that God raised him from the dead, then your debt is satisfied, because you have been redeemed from the hand of the enemy. In the case of the law men on their own didn’t have the means to satisfy the bill, the debt of the law because his carnal nature hindered him. He’d obey for a while, so on, so forth. It took JC to pay the full price of fulfilling the whole law and satisfying that debt for all men (as they believe). It might take time to sink in but as you go back over that and look at what does the English word “debt” mean. What does the Greek word “debt” mean? What weight does it carry, what characteristics does it allow? Then it just becomes electrifying to see that God uses financial terms to describe the bondage of the law.

[Belle]

quote:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the fles, but after the Spirit (in manifestation).

We are not to walk by our senses, we are to walk by the written revelation of God’s word and walk by the holy spirit within. God uses a fiacial concept to explain a spiritual truth here. We have been made free and now we are to compete in the spiritual competition.

quote:

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

“debtors” financial concept, right?

quote:

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die; but if ye through the spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

v.14 For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

v.15 For ye have not received trhe spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba, Father.

So we’re not debtors, someone who has unsatisfied obligations to the flesh, to live after the flesh. We don’t owe the adversary who was our former owner. We don’t owe our old man nature anything. We don’t have a debt to them. It’s a clean break, the price was paid in full. Now we have the freedom to choose. We can either continue to enslave ourselves to those, to the adversary, to our old man or we can live in the freedom and succeed. Now look at Colossians Chapter 2 and here is where this really comes together.

quote:

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

JCOP, pg. 230

quote:

Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us and contrary to us. This is an Easter expression. In the East the name of a man who went bankrupt was posted at the gate of the city by the elsers of that city, stating the names of his creditors and the amount of his debt. When all debts were completely paid, the elders would double the paper (Is 40:2), folding together the writ of debts, so that all the debts were “blotted out.” (A partial payment of debts by a bankrupt person was unacceptable.) The folded together document would then be nailed up at the city gate so that all passing by could see that the man’s debt was paid in full. All the negatives against that man were eradicated. Jesus Christ paid in full for all our debts of sin. He paid in full for our release from the bondage of the law. He was subjected to pain, sickness, suffering, and death for us. By taking these things upon himself, he “blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us….nailing it to his cross.”

Now, think about that, here’s what I mean that it should all come together here.

“If we lose the biblical perspective on financial debt and the bondage that it brings (as clearly stated in the OT law), then we begin to lose any merit of applying a figurative application that God himself uses to communicate the plan of redemption.”

If being in debt is not a big deal then the spiritual explanation here that the payment of the debt was satisfied when JC took it away, nailed it to his cross, gone, eradicated. But if getting out of debt and being out of debt is not a big deal then how can that be a really big deal in our minds.

(Repeats quote)

God set the example of debt payment by retiring a man’s spiritual debt, his moral obligation to do the law. That payment was satisfied when JC said “it is finished.” JC did not die until it had all been fulfilled, he had the means to pay and when it was all fulfilled, then and only then did he commend his spirit to God, thus satisfying the debt of the law and redeemed man.

Edited July 10, 2005 by Belle

[Belle]

I know that culturally speaking, it can be a difficult thing. It can be challenging to see the significance of becoming and enjoying the debt free lifestyle. But again, if we go with the world’s interpretation of what is good and what is right and what is acceptable and we lose the mental concepts of the importance of being financially free, then we start to lose the significance of what God did in Christ, when JC took away the debt and the bondage of the law.

Now look Romans 13 and we’re gonna build to this great plateau, this pinnacle in the doctrinal epistle to Romans, which again is the solid foundation upon which the other six rest. We are not gonna build, we have been building and ow we get to Romans 13 and this verse that you know in some ways, understanding what we understand about the definition of debt, the concept of debt, God’s perspective on what constituted debt. Understanding those things in some ways you can say that this is the clearest verse on the matter BUT there’s work to be done here. You would be unfair to just read this verse and say, case closed. Belle note: Isn’t that what they were doing for years???