BluzieQ... welcome, welcome!! Your posts are wonderful.
In answer to your dialog about your parents, and would they be better off if they finally saw what you see about TWI and got clear of it? My answer is this: No one will see the truth until they are ready. They had a reason for joining in the first place, and have spent years bending the truth to their own beliefs. This is where they are comfortable. Only when they begin to get uncomfortable with this position will the truth have a chance of creeping in between the cracks.
I state this from experience on both sides of the fence. In the 80s, during the "passing of the patriarch" mess, I had a dear, life-long friend leave twi and do her darnedest to get me to leave with her. We had many debates and discussions but finally, when she couldn't leave the subject alone and respect my decision to stay, I broke off the friendship. We didn't communicate for 8 years. Clearly, her die-hard anti-twi position did nothing to move me.
A few years ago, when I'd finally had enough of the manipulation, the lies, and the subjugation of twi and was ready to quit, my husband was not. Again, there were many debates and discussions over it, but no matter what facts, what truths, what irrefutable evidence I presented to him, his response was that none of that meant we should leave twi. Period. I finally realized that he was still where I was 8 years previous. He was not going to see what was right in front of his face. Not yet. Maybe not ever. And I knew that if I pushed him too hard, it would close any door there might ever be to get through to him. Just like I had closed the door on my friend. (By the way, she and I made up when I finally left twi.)
So, I say the same about your parents. Do your best to overlook their way-think. Keep your conversations positive. Focus on what is going right in your life, and theirs. Choose your battles carefully. When you can make an important point about twi-rationales in a way they may actually consider, even if only for a moment, go for it.
But don't expect them to change just because you show them what you've found out. That only works if they are already questioning or frustrated. It doesn't sound like your dad is anywhere near that frame of mind.
Love them the best you can, (and use this forum to vent)... if your folks ever start questioning twi, it will be a lot easier for them to eat the "crow" they will have to swallow if you haven't been shoving it in their faces all this time. And if they never do change, your own attitude of patience and kindness will make your times with them the best it can be.
I am new here too. My involvement was with people who were in with VPW/TWI1 and still believe his ministry and writings are the truth. It seems ingrained in them and even if VPW's personal shortcomings and questionable writings are pointed out it doesn't matter or discredit the 'TRUTH'.
I was shocked when I first found this site and read through some of the articles and stories.
We are lucky that all this information has been made 'available', I don't even like to hear that word now,
and the kindness,variety of opinions,experiences and especially the humor... It is so helpful. A relief.
Mell
Thanks, Rascal.
Bluzie Q
P.S. - What you said about Chris Geer was really distrubing. Can you by chance point me to any places on this site or sources where I could read more about him? Thanks!
Garth - thanks. You're right on. I don't think anything in any of my posts indicated that I think I'm still a child or don't demand respect. Knowing that my dad goes ballistic, I think it's reasonable to be leery of discussing something he's been known to freak out about. Of course I can, and do, stand up for myself and walk away if necessary. But it's still a stressful situation to see someone get that out-of-control angry - especially when my personal spiritual beliefs are the topic of discussion. Oh, by the way - I'm a she, not a he FYI :)-->
Bramble - I think TWI leads to bondage for a lot of people. I felt trapped, stifled, oppressed by it. One of the things about TWI that would be hilarious if it hadn't hurt so many people is that they control people by teaching you to be terrified of fear. I have had some anxiety issues (nothing major) and can't help but wonder if they're related to all those years of being taught that devil spirits were lurking around every corner - oh, but don't be afraid! About your children - I'm sure they will be fine. You have had the good sense to admit you were wrong and to try to correct and adjust for past mistakes. Children are resilient little guys. "Waybot mom" - lol.
Sorry for all the posts in a row - I'm having a hard time keeping up.
TheHighWay - Thank you - that's nice of you! I think your post was really wise and it makes total sense. Of course they're not going to come around until they're ready - if ever. I could ask if they know how VPW died, send them to this site and they could probably see everything on here and still find a way to rationalize it or make it fit their beliefs if they wanted to. I was probably assuming I had more power than I actually do ;)-->
Your advice about talking with my parents and keeping up a good relationship while making a point about TWI when I get a chance is very good. We do have a fairly good relationship and positive conversations right now and I don't want to damage that. At the same time, I think it would be dishonest to never say anything about TWI - especially because I know my dad will ask if I read the PFAL book he left here and what I thought - perfect opening to say something diplomatic but maybe get him to think a bit.
About your husband - did he ever decide to leave? Or is he still in while you're out? If so, that must be a tough situation. But you seem good at handling things ...
Mell - Thank you! It seems like your experience backs up what TheHighWay is saying too. It's funny you mention "available." I get the creeps hearing Way terms sometimes - the one that gets me is when my parents end all our phone conversations with "You're the best!" Lol.
Hello and welcome. I was raised in TWI. Got in from age 4 left at age 17. If you wanna cht hit u my email. We may even know each other. I was in from early 70's left in the 80's. I was Junior Corps F9. I went thru much of the same stuff you did and are still going thru.
peace
Wow I don't know what I was on when I wrote "If you wanna cht hit u my email."
I'm usually a litte more better a talker than that.
Just wanted to let you know, I'm not a maroon.
We probably do know each other. Don't be put off by my mastery of Englishness.
Georgio, you've changed your appearance slightly. :)-->
To those that wanted to know about Chris Geer you can look at the Passing of the Patriarch here and that will give you an idea of the type of person both he and Werwille were.
I remember once upon a time in twi we first generation wayfers would look upon you second generation wayfers when you were kids and say something stupid like " Oh, you don't know how fortunate you are to not have to go through the junk we had to endure."
Oeno,
That used to be so annoying. At some point I actually believed it. Now I think it just has more to do with what your parents were like and not whether you were in a cult or not. Although, as a young adult the whole cult thing started taking its toll and had less to do with your parents and more to do with being in a cult full of people who thought they were your parents and you were still a kid.
Timtim- just saw your PT- I'll get back to you. ;)-->
I ended up divorcing shortly after I left twi. He wanted to keep the marriage going but I found out it was just to talk me back "into fellowship".
Our marriage was never a good one. The only thing that held us together over the years was the pressure from twi not to break our commitment. Once I no longer respected them or their message, there was just nothing left to hold us together.
Although he would never admit it, it's obvious to anyone looking my ex is happier now than he was with me. We were simply a bad match-up for each other.
After that, it took about two solid years to "decompress"... unravelling about 25 years of my life (20 in twi, and 5 prior to that) to figure out why I did the things I did and made the choices I made, etc. So, any time I can help someone else through that post-twi process, I am more than happy to do it.
Mell and Blues, I am not trying to be evasive or vague, what info I have has been from several informative threads concerning geer here at gspot....I think that if you were to do a topic search, you might find them.
On them there are several first hand accounts of abuse witnessed or endured at this mans hands....most of it during twi and in Gartmoore....
I have read accounts of folks being treated very harshly at the hands of people who are part of this group....
As I understand it, He is in the u.s. running a group that pays dearly for the *right* to run his version of pfal.
I think that he puts out tapes and such....anyway, that is where some of the staunch wierwille fans hang out....
John Juedes sight *messiah 7* (you can find it on the recourse link at the top of the page) It has a LOT of usefull info concerning the offshoots (though some of it is dated) There are also some chilling accounts of abuse endured in other sections....
I always love hearing from those of you raised in TWI. It seemed to me that TWI children would always feel a little "different" from everyone one else and somewhat scared of forging friendships with people outside of TWI, even if allowed to.
I can so relate to the pressure to be perfect, but growing up with that pressure and the fear of devil spirits everywhere had to be phenomenal and totally incomprehensible for those of us that didn't experience it. I imagine the parents who felt the most pressure to be perfect themselves were especially hard on their children since they knew that having imperfect children was reason enough for dismissal. It's just one horrible vicious circle. :(-->
Craig did NOT advocate or promot college for kids until Leah became old enough to consider college. THEN he was for all kids going to college, but then again, he HAD to be. Co-inky-dink? I think not.
Hmmm ... I can see why someone who was abused as a child would be searching for closure, but (no offense) I can't see how it would be healthy to escape the abusive atmosphere one grew up in by getting involved with an abusive cult. I don't think groups like the Way exist to give people closure ... I think they flourish because they attract the vulnerable (probably messing them up more.)
That's just it; I didn't find TWI abusive. Well...not until the early 90s. Right now I have as much use for liberalism as you do for TWI. I guess I got the impression that your dad could just come where you are and freely unload on you. My bad.
Hmmm ... I can see why someone who was abused as a child would be searching for closure, but (no offense) I can't see how it would be healthy to escape the abusive atmosphere one grew up in by getting involved with an abusive cult. I don't think groups like the Way exist to give people closure ... I think they flourish because they attract the vulnerable (probably messing them up more.)
THW - I'm glad you were able to get out of a bad marriage then ... good that your ex seems happier too. It must have been a relief to get free of the twi teachings that were tying you down and making you feel you had to stay ... it sounds like you made an amazing amount of progress ...
Rascal - Thank you! I found the search function and found some of what you're talking about. I haven't got through all of it yet but I can see what you mean.
Belle - I know so many kids have felt that pressure to be perfect - not just in TWI. And I'm sure it has lasting effects no matter where that pressure comes from ... From watching my parents I think that TWI just gave them backing to exaggerate personality traits they already had, if that makes any sense. (Ie; my dad was raised in an uptight, critical kind of atmosphere and that helped form his demeanor ... TWI just made him believe he had every right to be that way, and had God's full backing as the 'head of the household') (gag!)
About LCM and college - that's just too much. I guess they can find justification for anything they want to do, can't they?
You wrote: "That's just it; I didn't find TWI abusive. Well...not until the early 90s."
Hmmmm...I guess it depends on your perspective. My guess is that adult heterosexual males would be the least likely to find TWI abusive ... children, gay men, and women (especially VP's sex abuse victims) might have a different take. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying adult heterosexual males weren't abused in TWI - just that the doctrine gave them more power in the TWI hierarchy...)
BluzieQ, I've been reading your thread and your thoughts with great interest. I wasn't raised in TWI, but I got in at age 15 in 1970 and left in 87-88, so most of my life was spent in it (including corps, WOW, staff, etc.).
I loved your last point about how white heterosexual males were treated the best, they were the top of the food chain. This is an excellent and overlooked point, and very true. I've also noted on here, the diehard defenders of VPW are in that category. As a female, I never could buy into the "submissive" thing and basically dismissed it. I looked around and saw too many marriages where the wife was demeaned, patronized, talked down to, etc. But these corps men were taught this attitude and to do this by VPW. VPW was a misogynist, I believe.
College is a wonderful thing, history, philosophy, sociology, etc. - can really open one's eyes and help shake off the Waybrain.
Also, in the "early days" of the late '60s, early '70s, TWI was not so controlling. It was basically a bunch of young kids doing their thing loving God. PFAL basically made the Bible understandable to us. It was the time fo the hippie. You really must take the times (hippy, vietnam, race riots - the country is falling apart, revolution, bombings all the time, Kent State, etc.) into account. For many TWI has a peaceful haven in a crazy Amerika. If VPW had tried to control us, we would have fled. I know to look at TWI now, you could never imagine that.
Also, it was a time of great revival (do a search on the Jesus Movement and Lonnie Frisbee - the whole movement basically was started by this young man in California) - the "Jesus Freaks" - Jesus - offered an alternative to the chaos in the large cities. There's a great thread on what it was like in the early days of TWI - real signs, miracles and wonders, etc. So, your parents saw something they wanted (love of God?) and sadly, have stayed "committed" darnit, through thick and thin.
You also have to realize, your father got so angry because he does have some doubts. People who get angry when challenged are that way, because down deep they know its the truth. If someone truly believes something, he does not have to get angry or argue about it.
The best thing you can do is live your life. You are never going to change their minds. Everyone I know who left TWI, it began with a small thought, a still small voice, basically, a move of God in their hearts.
I'm always so glad when a TWI child grows up, thinks and moves on - you go girl!
Craig did NOT advocate or promot college for kids until Leah became old enough to consider college. THEN he was for all kids going to college, but then again, he HAD to be. Co-inky-dink? I think not.
Belle,
I think it was that and the fact that there were a lot of people going WOW or Wafer Disciple and then going straight into the corps. As control came more and more out of the closet more and more of those people were being kicked out of the program and M&A, as you well know.
I think that part of his college endorcement was to make sure people had job skills and qualifications. He didn't want them to have much of a legal leg to stand on if they decided to sue after being kicked out.
Although, even after his endorcement some leaders like the Very-ills in my limb repeatedly told kids that they didn't need to go to college to have a good job and be prosperous. Of course he had never gone to college and was a contractor (before and after being a full time minister lol) not that there is anything wrong with that. He told me this many times after I told him I wanted to go back to school to finish my degree. This was in response to being asked when I was going corps or "would you like to go on staff". Oh, that cam up way to often.
The 60s movement was an abundant source of idealistic youth that looked to find meaning at what was a very turbulent time. Unless you were aware back then its very difficult to understand what the climate was like.
Lots of young people were looking for alternative lifestyles and checked out communes, religious organziations, mysticism, activism and maybe even overlaps between all of the above. Lots of groups prospered because of this not just TWI. My initial involvements with TWI were only after I had checked out the Krishnas, drugs,
the occult, and even a group of so called satanists (they were so boring - bunch of guys who couldn't get laid so they smoked alot of guage and rapped about the "dark master").
In any case its not an accident that TWI grew because lots of people came to twigs because their friends invited them and there weren't as many strings at that time as there eventually came to be. You could float in and out without someone busting your chops about it. At least at first. There was a time when that honeymoon period would be over and then you were expected to fall in line with the typical way progression - PFAL, intermediate, supporting classes, advanced, WOW and so on.
As people aged and considered college or considered returning to college, way leaders saw it as competition for the wow programs and corps programs so there were some definite teachings made about how the acquisition of "worldy knowledge" wasn't profitable or "the best use of time". Basically way leaders wanted to keep and energetic, mobile sales force for PFAL on the road at all times. You couldn't be a salesperson for PFAL if you were busy with school.
One thing I do know is that if you had been to college then TWI was more than happy to tell people about it as if they had something to do with it. It made them look better to followers if someone who had been to a real university decided to fellowship with TWI. That was very hypocritical of course but thats not a surprise. And then they tried to setup that joke of a college to attract people who wanted to go to college.
Now. I don't at all think that the Way of the late 60s or early 70s were somehow innocent or pure as some old timers would have you believe. Lots of *people* were innocenet and had no idea what TWI was about or what the expectations would be but TWI itself always had this quiet sinister thing going on. From my earliest twigs I had questions that would go unanswered or ignored and when I persisted I was either love bombed or pulled to the side and chastised for "bringing everybody down". So its not like it was some panacea or some perfect time. There were lots of deception and power struggling going on where people were jockeying for influence and control. If you didn't see it then it doesn't mean that others didn't.
The sheer numbers made it such that leaders didn't have to worry so much if someone didn't come to twig. There were plenty of replacements. Plus its hard to control a twig of 50 (thats what we had one summer). If anything we dictated what we were going to do much more than the twig leader or any other type of leader. But as numbers stabilized and people got to know you at a particular twig the expectaions were there for you to advance in the way progression. And this was by 75 so its not like the control freaks waited till the 80s to show themselves. I had plenty of encounters
with know-it-all corps types and self righteous Wows telling me that
going to college or starting your own business before you went wow or took the advanced class was inviting the devil into your life.
I know that lots of people from that time like to point to Elena Whiteside's book "the Way living in love" as some great document of TWI at that time but in my opinion and experience that book was a fictional story
in that it conveyed a way experience that I never saw. And believe me I tried. Some people did space out and become total pollyannas about TWI so maybe for them it was like utopia. But it was only because they didn't take the time to notice the very corporate and business-like moves being made by TWI.
Might I add to your observation about sheer numbers that during the years of explosive growth there just weren't enough Way Corps grads to effectively control things. There were many twig and branch leaders without Corps training, and many who were not even Advanced Class grads.
Not to say that every Corps grad was controlling or that every non-Corps leader wasn't, but it's difficult to push bad policy when several links in the chain haven't bought into the company line.
Sunsesis - Great post! It was intersting to hear your take on the submission thing. I have to say that was the #1 thing that bothered me about TWI as a kid. I too saw many men who demeaned their wives and tried to act all macho and powerful ... and women who cowered and wouldn't stand up for themselves. It just didn't seem right to me. I also noticed there were a few super outspoken women too. We had a biker woman at one of our twigs who was the LEAST submissive woman you could imagine, but man could she give a mean teaching on submission. ;)-->
Thanks for your perspective on the early days of the Way. That's kind of what I figured. I can sort of imagine what the times were like - I've heard a lot of stories from my parents (they were at Kent state and were big into the anti-war movement then). I can see where the Way would be an attractive thing at the time ...
The stuff you say about the Jesus People is really interesting - I've always wondered about them. What fascinating times...
About my dad - I think you're right about his getting angry. It's like he felt threatened or something. Thanks for the advice too! You all are so nice and helpful.
Diazbro - Thanks for posting your take on the 60s and the Way - very interesting. A lot of what you said really makes sense - especially the stuff about college, and its being competition for Way corps.
I'm curious - what is the Elena Whiteside book? It sounds familiar but I can't place what it is. Is it meant to be non-fiction?
I really related to what you said about questions going unanswered or ignored ... that was always one of the things that bugged me the most - non-answers. If you know THE TRUTH then surely it should be able to stand up to a simple challenging question here or there...
Might I add to your observation about sheer numbers that during the years of explosive growth there just weren't enough Way Corps grads to effectively control things.
Well yes that is definitely true. And many twigs had very fluid membership. People might show up twice in a row, disappear for a month, and come back later on. This didn't seem to be a problem especially when the twig leaders might also be changing frequently also.
At times they tried to "take roll" but logistically it wasn't possible. The PFAL green card was the closest thing they had to get a head count but I knew people who would go to twigs for like a year and not take the class and nobody complained because of the aforementioned reasons.
This changed at some point when HQ started deploying corps to specific areas. When they showed up there were lots of shakeups and people were pressured to sign greencards and if they did't follow through we were encouraged to "end our witness" which meant they were no longer welcome at twig if they didn't take (i.e. "pay" for) PFAL. This was a real shame because we had people at twig who just wanted to come and hang out and heara bible teaching. They would even kick in some money to the horn o' plenty.
This was sort of a turning point where you had people leaving on a significant scale.
After all here were people ,the corps, who were basically the same age as you (maybe even younger) acting like they were much older and demanding that you sign this card to prove your intent. To someone active in the 60s this was like a threat. It was like the "establishment" (a common 60s term) was now in place at TWI. So lots of people just laughed in their faces and left for other things. So the legalism that would be pefected under the reign of LCM was already there in TWI by the mid 70s.
quote:
There were many twig and branch leaders without Corps training, and many who were not even Advanced Class grads.
Yea there weren't these requirements in place so people could function like that. and in many cases it made for a much kinder form of leadership though after "training" things got worse and people were edged out and the "pros" would roll into an area and basically stifle the good growth. This was happening in the mid 70s which is why I claim that "TWI I" wasn't some paradise as some claim.
I also noticed that many of the corps teachings started to emphasize the devil more and how if we didn't "shape up" as a country we could lose it. So there was this emphasis on "being sharp" and "taking a check up from the neck up". And they started relating our behavior to events in the world as if our adherence to "the word" could case misfortune not only in our lives but in that of others. This sort of grew over time and culminated with what i call the "America Awakes" era (76 or so) which was the Joyful Noise album.
I've told Socks here a couple of times that while I liked the album and the music I didn't like having to listen to it 20 and 30 times a week or being strong armed into buying copies as gifts for people who already had copies. Of course anyone who was active at that time no doubt remembers the alleged attempt on the US government and how "doctor" had gotten this heavy revvy that there would be an overthrow attempt.
So we had these prayer vigils and were asked to make sure our walk was right on and all that so God would protect us. Of course nothing happened and then it was like "thank god for doctor weirwille" who got the revelation about it and told us what to do to prevent it (prayer vigils). So it was clear that this thing was getting creepy.
Nice trick huh. Create an impending false emergency and when nothing happens take credit for preventng it.
I've got more to say about this but thats enough for now.
"The Elena Whiteside" book was caled "The Way- Living in Love". It was written in the early or mid seventies, I believe, and talks about events at Way Int'l HQ during a week in 1971 or 1972. The First and Second Way Corps , including Martindale, were in residence. It paints a very rosy picture of life at HQ, and present things in a very hippy-dippy, lovey-dovey way. It includes interviews with Wierwille about his early days.
The Way bookstore stopped distributing it a few years back, partly because the author was no longer with TWI, as were most of the people discussed in the book, and it was replaced as an "historical" book by Wierwille's wife's book "Born Aagin To Serve".
I wasn't raised in The Way, having gotten involved at age 19, but I did raise six children while involved in TWI.
My three oldest, all adults in their early to late twenties right now, have talked with me about their experience several times in the last year. None want anything to do with the organization or it's offshoots, and recognize that it was a cult.
They are all very forgiving about my own foolishness as a waybrained dad, except my oldest son says that he may never forgive me for throwing out my Eric Clapton albums under pressure from his waybrained mom! ; - )
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TheHighWay
BluzieQ... welcome, welcome!! Your posts are wonderful.
In answer to your dialog about your parents, and would they be better off if they finally saw what you see about TWI and got clear of it? My answer is this: No one will see the truth until they are ready. They had a reason for joining in the first place, and have spent years bending the truth to their own beliefs. This is where they are comfortable. Only when they begin to get uncomfortable with this position will the truth have a chance of creeping in between the cracks.
I state this from experience on both sides of the fence. In the 80s, during the "passing of the patriarch" mess, I had a dear, life-long friend leave twi and do her darnedest to get me to leave with her. We had many debates and discussions but finally, when she couldn't leave the subject alone and respect my decision to stay, I broke off the friendship. We didn't communicate for 8 years. Clearly, her die-hard anti-twi position did nothing to move me.
A few years ago, when I'd finally had enough of the manipulation, the lies, and the subjugation of twi and was ready to quit, my husband was not. Again, there were many debates and discussions over it, but no matter what facts, what truths, what irrefutable evidence I presented to him, his response was that none of that meant we should leave twi. Period. I finally realized that he was still where I was 8 years previous. He was not going to see what was right in front of his face. Not yet. Maybe not ever. And I knew that if I pushed him too hard, it would close any door there might ever be to get through to him. Just like I had closed the door on my friend. (By the way, she and I made up when I finally left twi.)
So, I say the same about your parents. Do your best to overlook their way-think. Keep your conversations positive. Focus on what is going right in your life, and theirs. Choose your battles carefully. When you can make an important point about twi-rationales in a way they may actually consider, even if only for a moment, go for it.
But don't expect them to change just because you show them what you've found out. That only works if they are already questioning or frustrated. It doesn't sound like your dad is anywhere near that frame of mind.
Love them the best you can, (and use this forum to vent)... if your folks ever start questioning twi, it will be a lot easier for them to eat the "crow" they will have to swallow if you haven't been shoving it in their faces all this time. And if they never do change, your own attitude of patience and kindness will make your times with them the best it can be.
Hope this helps.
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mell
Hi Bluzie Q-
You are brave-
I am new here too. My involvement was with people who were in with VPW/TWI1 and still believe his ministry and writings are the truth. It seems ingrained in them and even if VPW's personal shortcomings and questionable writings are pointed out it doesn't matter or discredit the 'TRUTH'.
I was shocked when I first found this site and read through some of the articles and stories.
We are lucky that all this information has been made 'available', I don't even like to hear that word now,
and the kindness,variety of opinions,experiences and especially the humor... It is so helpful. A relief.
Mell
Thanks, Rascal.
Bluzie Q
P.S. - What you said about Chris Geer was really distrubing. Can you by chance point me to any places on this site or sources where I could read more about him? Thanks!
I would be interested to know more also.
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BluzieQ
Hi,
Garth - thanks. You're right on. I don't think anything in any of my posts indicated that I think I'm still a child or don't demand respect. Knowing that my dad goes ballistic, I think it's reasonable to be leery of discussing something he's been known to freak out about. Of course I can, and do, stand up for myself and walk away if necessary. But it's still a stressful situation to see someone get that out-of-control angry - especially when my personal spiritual beliefs are the topic of discussion. Oh, by the way - I'm a she, not a he FYI
:)-->
Bramble - I think TWI leads to bondage for a lot of people. I felt trapped, stifled, oppressed by it. One of the things about TWI that would be hilarious if it hadn't hurt so many people is that they control people by teaching you to be terrified of fear. I have had some anxiety issues (nothing major) and can't help but wonder if they're related to all those years of being taught that devil spirits were lurking around every corner - oh, but don't be afraid! About your children - I'm sure they will be fine. You have had the good sense to admit you were wrong and to try to correct and adjust for past mistakes. Children are resilient little guys. "Waybot mom" - lol.
Gladtobeout - Thank you!!! I'm glad to be here.
Oenophile - You're funny!
BluzieQ
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BluzieQ
Sorry for all the posts in a row - I'm having a hard time keeping up.
TheHighWay - Thank you - that's nice of you! I think your post was really wise and it makes total sense. Of course they're not going to come around until they're ready - if ever. I could ask if they know how VPW died, send them to this site and they could probably see everything on here and still find a way to rationalize it or make it fit their beliefs if they wanted to. I was probably assuming I had more power than I actually do
;)-->
Your advice about talking with my parents and keeping up a good relationship while making a point about TWI when I get a chance is very good. We do have a fairly good relationship and positive conversations right now and I don't want to damage that. At the same time, I think it would be dishonest to never say anything about TWI - especially because I know my dad will ask if I read the PFAL book he left here and what I thought - perfect opening to say something diplomatic but maybe get him to think a bit.
About your husband - did he ever decide to leave? Or is he still in while you're out? If so, that must be a tough situation. But you seem good at handling things ...
Mell - Thank you! It seems like your experience backs up what TheHighWay is saying too. It's funny you mention "available." I get the creeps hearing Way terms sometimes - the one that gets me is when my parents end all our phone conversations with "You're the best!" Lol.
Anyway, nice to meet you.
BluzieQ
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Georgio Jessio
Wow I don't know what I was on when I wrote "If you wanna cht hit u my email."
I'm usually a litte more better a talker than that.
Just wanted to let you know, I'm not a maroon.
We probably do know each other. Don't be put off by my mastery of Englishness.
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lindyhopper
Georgio, you've changed your appearance slightly.
:)-->
To those that wanted to know about Chris Geer you can look at the Passing of the Patriarch here and that will give you an idea of the type of person both he and Werwille were.
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lindyhopper
Oeno,
That used to be so annoying. At some point I actually believed it. Now I think it just has more to do with what your parents were like and not whether you were in a cult or not. Although, as a young adult the whole cult thing started taking its toll and had less to do with your parents and more to do with being in a cult full of people who thought they were your parents and you were still a kid.
Timtim- just saw your PT- I'll get back to you.
;)-->
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BluzieQ
Georgio,
Haha! You're funny. I just e-mailed "u".
BluzieQ
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TheHighWay
BQ...
I ended up divorcing shortly after I left twi. He wanted to keep the marriage going but I found out it was just to talk me back "into fellowship".
Our marriage was never a good one. The only thing that held us together over the years was the pressure from twi not to break our commitment. Once I no longer respected them or their message, there was just nothing left to hold us together.
Although he would never admit it, it's obvious to anyone looking my ex is happier now than he was with me. We were simply a bad match-up for each other.
After that, it took about two solid years to "decompress"... unravelling about 25 years of my life (20 in twi, and 5 prior to that) to figure out why I did the things I did and made the choices I made, etc. So, any time I can help someone else through that post-twi process, I am more than happy to do it.
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rascal
Mell and Blues, I am not trying to be evasive or vague, what info I have has been from several informative threads concerning geer here at gspot....I think that if you were to do a topic search, you might find them.
On them there are several first hand accounts of abuse witnessed or endured at this mans hands....most of it during twi and in Gartmoore....
I have read accounts of folks being treated very harshly at the hands of people who are part of this group....
As I understand it, He is in the u.s. running a group that pays dearly for the *right* to run his version of pfal.
I think that he puts out tapes and such....anyway, that is where some of the staunch wierwille fans hang out....
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rascal
John Juedes sight *messiah 7* (you can find it on the recourse link at the top of the page) It has a LOT of usefull info concerning the offshoots (though some of it is dated) There are also some chilling accounts of abuse endured in other sections....
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Belle
Lots of good stuff here!
I always love hearing from those of you raised in TWI. It seemed to me that TWI children would always feel a little "different" from everyone one else and somewhat scared of forging friendships with people outside of TWI, even if allowed to.
I can so relate to the pressure to be perfect, but growing up with that pressure and the fear of devil spirits everywhere had to be phenomenal and totally incomprehensible for those of us that didn't experience it. I imagine the parents who felt the most pressure to be perfect themselves were especially hard on their children since they knew that having imperfect children was reason enough for dismissal. It's just one horrible vicious circle.
:(-->
Craig did NOT advocate or promot college for kids until Leah became old enough to consider college. THEN he was for all kids going to college, but then again, he HAD to be. Co-inky-dink? I think not.
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johniam
BluesyQ:
That's just it; I didn't find TWI abusive. Well...not until the early 90s. Right now I have as much use for liberalism as you do for TWI. I guess I got the impression that your dad could just come where you are and freely unload on you. My bad.
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excathedra
god damn right you are !!!!!!
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BluzieQ
THW - I'm glad you were able to get out of a bad marriage then ... good that your ex seems happier too. It must have been a relief to get free of the twi teachings that were tying you down and making you feel you had to stay ... it sounds like you made an amazing amount of progress ...
Rascal - Thank you! I found the search function and found some of what you're talking about. I haven't got through all of it yet but I can see what you mean.
Belle - I know so many kids have felt that pressure to be perfect - not just in TWI. And I'm sure it has lasting effects no matter where that pressure comes from ... From watching my parents I think that TWI just gave them backing to exaggerate personality traits they already had, if that makes any sense. (Ie; my dad was raised in an uptight, critical kind of atmosphere and that helped form his demeanor ... TWI just made him believe he had every right to be that way, and had God's full backing as the 'head of the household') (gag!)
About LCM and college - that's just too much. I guess they can find justification for anything they want to do, can't they?
BQ
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BluzieQ
Johniam,
You wrote: "That's just it; I didn't find TWI abusive. Well...not until the early 90s."
Hmmmm...I guess it depends on your perspective. My guess is that adult heterosexual males would be the least likely to find TWI abusive ... children, gay men, and women (especially VP's sex abuse victims) might have a different take. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying adult heterosexual males weren't abused in TWI - just that the doctrine gave them more power in the TWI hierarchy...)
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Sunesis
BluzieQ, I've been reading your thread and your thoughts with great interest. I wasn't raised in TWI, but I got in at age 15 in 1970 and left in 87-88, so most of my life was spent in it (including corps, WOW, staff, etc.).
I loved your last point about how white heterosexual males were treated the best, they were the top of the food chain. This is an excellent and overlooked point, and very true. I've also noted on here, the diehard defenders of VPW are in that category. As a female, I never could buy into the "submissive" thing and basically dismissed it. I looked around and saw too many marriages where the wife was demeaned, patronized, talked down to, etc. But these corps men were taught this attitude and to do this by VPW. VPW was a misogynist, I believe.
College is a wonderful thing, history, philosophy, sociology, etc. - can really open one's eyes and help shake off the Waybrain.
Also, in the "early days" of the late '60s, early '70s, TWI was not so controlling. It was basically a bunch of young kids doing their thing loving God. PFAL basically made the Bible understandable to us. It was the time fo the hippie. You really must take the times (hippy, vietnam, race riots - the country is falling apart, revolution, bombings all the time, Kent State, etc.) into account. For many TWI has a peaceful haven in a crazy Amerika. If VPW had tried to control us, we would have fled. I know to look at TWI now, you could never imagine that.
Also, it was a time of great revival (do a search on the Jesus Movement and Lonnie Frisbee - the whole movement basically was started by this young man in California) - the "Jesus Freaks" - Jesus - offered an alternative to the chaos in the large cities. There's a great thread on what it was like in the early days of TWI - real signs, miracles and wonders, etc. So, your parents saw something they wanted (love of God?) and sadly, have stayed "committed" darnit, through thick and thin.
You also have to realize, your father got so angry because he does have some doubts. People who get angry when challenged are that way, because down deep they know its the truth. If someone truly believes something, he does not have to get angry or argue about it.
The best thing you can do is live your life. You are never going to change their minds. Everyone I know who left TWI, it began with a small thought, a still small voice, basically, a move of God in their hearts.
I'm always so glad when a TWI child grows up, thinks and moves on - you go girl!
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lindyhopper
Belle,
I think it was that and the fact that there were a lot of people going WOW or Wafer Disciple and then going straight into the corps. As control came more and more out of the closet more and more of those people were being kicked out of the program and M&A, as you well know.
I think that part of his college endorcement was to make sure people had job skills and qualifications. He didn't want them to have much of a legal leg to stand on if they decided to sue after being kicked out.
Although, even after his endorcement some leaders like the Very-ills in my limb repeatedly told kids that they didn't need to go to college to have a good job and be prosperous. Of course he had never gone to college and was a contractor (before and after being a full time minister lol) not that there is anything wrong with that. He told me this many times after I told him I wanted to go back to school to finish my degree. This was in response to being asked when I was going corps or "would you like to go on staff". Oh, that cam up way to often.
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diazbro
The 60s movement was an abundant source of idealistic youth that looked to find meaning at what was a very turbulent time. Unless you were aware back then its very difficult to understand what the climate was like.
Lots of young people were looking for alternative lifestyles and checked out communes, religious organziations, mysticism, activism and maybe even overlaps between all of the above. Lots of groups prospered because of this not just TWI. My initial involvements with TWI were only after I had checked out the Krishnas, drugs,
the occult, and even a group of so called satanists (they were so boring - bunch of guys who couldn't get laid so they smoked alot of guage and rapped about the "dark master").
In any case its not an accident that TWI grew because lots of people came to twigs because their friends invited them and there weren't as many strings at that time as there eventually came to be. You could float in and out without someone busting your chops about it. At least at first. There was a time when that honeymoon period would be over and then you were expected to fall in line with the typical way progression - PFAL, intermediate, supporting classes, advanced, WOW and so on.
As people aged and considered college or considered returning to college, way leaders saw it as competition for the wow programs and corps programs so there were some definite teachings made about how the acquisition of "worldy knowledge" wasn't profitable or "the best use of time". Basically way leaders wanted to keep and energetic, mobile sales force for PFAL on the road at all times. You couldn't be a salesperson for PFAL if you were busy with school.
One thing I do know is that if you had been to college then TWI was more than happy to tell people about it as if they had something to do with it. It made them look better to followers if someone who had been to a real university decided to fellowship with TWI. That was very hypocritical of course but thats not a surprise. And then they tried to setup that joke of a college to attract people who wanted to go to college.
Now. I don't at all think that the Way of the late 60s or early 70s were somehow innocent or pure as some old timers would have you believe. Lots of *people* were innocenet and had no idea what TWI was about or what the expectations would be but TWI itself always had this quiet sinister thing going on. From my earliest twigs I had questions that would go unanswered or ignored and when I persisted I was either love bombed or pulled to the side and chastised for "bringing everybody down". So its not like it was some panacea or some perfect time. There were lots of deception and power struggling going on where people were jockeying for influence and control. If you didn't see it then it doesn't mean that others didn't.
The sheer numbers made it such that leaders didn't have to worry so much if someone didn't come to twig. There were plenty of replacements. Plus its hard to control a twig of 50 (thats what we had one summer). If anything we dictated what we were going to do much more than the twig leader or any other type of leader. But as numbers stabilized and people got to know you at a particular twig the expectaions were there for you to advance in the way progression. And this was by 75 so its not like the control freaks waited till the 80s to show themselves. I had plenty of encounters
with know-it-all corps types and self righteous Wows telling me that
going to college or starting your own business before you went wow or took the advanced class was inviting the devil into your life.
I know that lots of people from that time like to point to Elena Whiteside's book "the Way living in love" as some great document of TWI at that time but in my opinion and experience that book was a fictional story
in that it conveyed a way experience that I never saw. And believe me I tried. Some people did space out and become total pollyannas about TWI so maybe for them it was like utopia. But it was only because they didn't take the time to notice the very corporate and business-like moves being made by TWI.
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Oakspear
Diazbro:
Good post, good points.
Might I add to your observation about sheer numbers that during the years of explosive growth there just weren't enough Way Corps grads to effectively control things. There were many twig and branch leaders without Corps training, and many who were not even Advanced Class grads.
Not to say that every Corps grad was controlling or that every non-Corps leader wasn't, but it's difficult to push bad policy when several links in the chain haven't bought into the company line.
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BluzieQ
Hi,
Sunsesis - Great post! It was intersting to hear your take on the submission thing. I have to say that was the #1 thing that bothered me about TWI as a kid. I too saw many men who demeaned their wives and tried to act all macho and powerful ... and women who cowered and wouldn't stand up for themselves. It just didn't seem right to me. I also noticed there were a few super outspoken women too. We had a biker woman at one of our twigs who was the LEAST submissive woman you could imagine, but man could she give a mean teaching on submission.
;)-->
Thanks for your perspective on the early days of the Way. That's kind of what I figured. I can sort of imagine what the times were like - I've heard a lot of stories from my parents (they were at Kent state and were big into the anti-war movement then). I can see where the Way would be an attractive thing at the time ...
The stuff you say about the Jesus People is really interesting - I've always wondered about them. What fascinating times...
About my dad - I think you're right about his getting angry. It's like he felt threatened or something. Thanks for the advice too! You all are so nice and helpful.
Diazbro - Thanks for posting your take on the 60s and the Way - very interesting. A lot of what you said really makes sense - especially the stuff about college, and its being competition for Way corps.
I'm curious - what is the Elena Whiteside book? It sounds familiar but I can't place what it is. Is it meant to be non-fiction?
I really related to what you said about questions going unanswered or ignored ... that was always one of the things that bugged me the most - non-answers. If you know THE TRUTH then surely it should be able to stand up to a simple challenging question here or there...
BluzieQ
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diazbro
Well yes that is definitely true. And many twigs had very fluid membership. People might show up twice in a row, disappear for a month, and come back later on. This didn't seem to be a problem especially when the twig leaders might also be changing frequently also.
At times they tried to "take roll" but logistically it wasn't possible. The PFAL green card was the closest thing they had to get a head count but I knew people who would go to twigs for like a year and not take the class and nobody complained because of the aforementioned reasons.
This changed at some point when HQ started deploying corps to specific areas. When they showed up there were lots of shakeups and people were pressured to sign greencards and if they did't follow through we were encouraged to "end our witness" which meant they were no longer welcome at twig if they didn't take (i.e. "pay" for) PFAL. This was a real shame because we had people at twig who just wanted to come and hang out and heara bible teaching. They would even kick in some money to the horn o' plenty.
This was sort of a turning point where you had people leaving on a significant scale.
After all here were people ,the corps, who were basically the same age as you (maybe even younger) acting like they were much older and demanding that you sign this card to prove your intent. To someone active in the 60s this was like a threat. It was like the "establishment" (a common 60s term) was now in place at TWI. So lots of people just laughed in their faces and left for other things. So the legalism that would be pefected under the reign of LCM was already there in TWI by the mid 70s.
Yea there weren't these requirements in place so people could function like that. and in many cases it made for a much kinder form of leadership though after "training" things got worse and people were edged out and the "pros" would roll into an area and basically stifle the good growth. This was happening in the mid 70s which is why I claim that "TWI I" wasn't some paradise as some claim.
I also noticed that many of the corps teachings started to emphasize the devil more and how if we didn't "shape up" as a country we could lose it. So there was this emphasis on "being sharp" and "taking a check up from the neck up". And they started relating our behavior to events in the world as if our adherence to "the word" could case misfortune not only in our lives but in that of others. This sort of grew over time and culminated with what i call the "America Awakes" era (76 or so) which was the Joyful Noise album.
I've told Socks here a couple of times that while I liked the album and the music I didn't like having to listen to it 20 and 30 times a week or being strong armed into buying copies as gifts for people who already had copies. Of course anyone who was active at that time no doubt remembers the alleged attempt on the US government and how "doctor" had gotten this heavy revvy that there would be an overthrow attempt.
So we had these prayer vigils and were asked to make sure our walk was right on and all that so God would protect us. Of course nothing happened and then it was like "thank god for doctor weirwille" who got the revelation about it and told us what to do to prevent it (prayer vigils). So it was clear that this thing was getting creepy.
Nice trick huh. Create an impending false emergency and when nothing happens take credit for preventng it.
I've got more to say about this but thats enough for now.
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Oakspear
"The Elena Whiteside" book was caled "The Way- Living in Love". It was written in the early or mid seventies, I believe, and talks about events at Way Int'l HQ during a week in 1971 or 1972. The First and Second Way Corps , including Martindale, were in residence. It paints a very rosy picture of life at HQ, and present things in a very hippy-dippy, lovey-dovey way. It includes interviews with Wierwille about his early days.
The Way bookstore stopped distributing it a few years back, partly because the author was no longer with TWI, as were most of the people discussed in the book, and it was replaced as an "historical" book by Wierwille's wife's book "Born Aagin To Serve".
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Oakspear
I wasn't raised in The Way, having gotten involved at age 19, but I did raise six children while involved in TWI.
My three oldest, all adults in their early to late twenties right now, have talked with me about their experience several times in the last year. None want anything to do with the organization or it's offshoots, and recognize that it was a cult.
They are all very forgiving about my own foolishness as a waybrained dad, except my oldest son says that he may never forgive me for throwing out my Eric Clapton albums under pressure from his waybrained mom! ; - )
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