well as a female with a name like timtim, I can't say I know you. ;)--> Although, my family was in pretty deep (family corps, etc.) and I knew many local wayfers and staffers, so if you've been in the Ohio area for long maybe we do know eachother.
BluzieQ,
quote:
Can I ask what it was that finally made you decide to leave TWI while your family stayed in? That must have taken a lot of guts with so many family members involved.
That could be along story. Maybe look up my story in the "my story" forum and find the thread entitled "put this in your pipe and smoke it" (an old VP saying if you didn't know already, not just a drug reference, haha). That gives a number of reasons as well as some crazy stories.
I think I could boil it down to a simple idea though. After many years of sitting thru classes, seeing people come and go, never "winning" anyone to "the Word", etc etc., I began to wonder what was it that made people believe. "How do I reach those people?" Martinfail made a new class with a similar session to the PFAL session "The integrity of the Word". "This is what it all comes down to", they would say. Their answer? "lets go to the Word of God and see what it says about itself." Seemed kinda circular. The title of the session itself was circular. I eventually realised that I didn't believe the Bible was the revealed Word of God anymore than any other book claiming the same was.
So while some here picked away at this doctrine and that doctrine (not that there is anything wrong with that), I wacked my foundation right out from under myself. LOL Somehow taking it all instide. As I have moved on in a very different direction (agnostic) I have come to think that perhaps I never really believed most of it.
As to having a whole family in and leaving, my wife is amazed at how well I just moved on. I don't know why I was able to do it but I did. I did have the support of my wife (who wasn't my wife at the time), father and his wife, and many of my good friends from college. I doubt I could have done it without that support. Thank you for saying it took guts. The closest thing that I can compare it to is maybe a gay person coming out to their family and friends. I did have a then friend call me a coward for not discussing my issues with them, but I knew that none of them had the answers to my reasons and any reason I gave them would just be used against me ie. "see he's possessed". So I said F*^K em', let them think what they will. They will think the same regardless of what I say.
well that was longer than anticipated, but read my story that has more details in it....and is much longer. Maybe it'll help in some way and like I said you can always email me if you like.
Thanks for the welcome, and I love your posts! Yum - danish sounds good :)-->
Anyway, Just wanted to say I read your story on the My Story section and was amazed. You really stood up for yourself and for what you thought was right. I'm very sorry you lost your marriage over it. But glad you're doing so much better than when you were "in."
Thanks for the book recommendation. That might be just what I need to learn how to frame questions that won't put my family on the defensive...
I am still really enjoying reading all your posts and the many points of view. Thank you all.
ozbirdau -- I think you're lucky (oops!) that you got out while your boys were still young. Good for you. I can't believe the treatment of the children you described on the Indiana campus. Good for you for sticking up for the kids though even if it meant you got "reproved." And I do know that the parents are doing what they think is best at the time, sadly ... And thanks for your encouragement re: my parents.
coolchef - thank you ... and i bet your kids do have great santa memories.
dmiller -
You make a very good point about how different TWI is today...I've gathered a lot about how it's changed from reading here and other sites. After my parents stopped going to fellowship, they were pretty tightlipped, but I gathered they knew about some problems with Martindale, and that the way had changed somewhat. I don't know if they know specifically about the change in doctrine.
Since for so long we've had the unspoken agreement not to talk about TWI or "The Word," I haven't been able to glean much. But when my Dad recently started going on his "Way kick" again and sent me a long e-mail about how "blessed" he is to have read the PFAL book again, etc., and asking if I'd like to see it, I e-mailed back casually asking whether he and my mom ever think of re-joining the Way and what's going on with the Way now, anyway.
He didn't repsond for several days, and I could tell he was probably thinking about what to say. He finally replied that the Way had "gone through a big split during some difficult times after Dr. Wierwille passed away." He went on to write that "Many of the people were not willing to renew their minds and The Way as it is now is just not the same." He says that he and my mom are content to "study on their own" for now because "God is personal as long as you know his Word and believe that all the principles still work." And he says, "It's great to operate the principles to understand many of the reasons things are the way they are on earth right now."
When he was here visiting and he tried to talk to my boyfriend about the Way, he said that the Way is supposedly thriving in Europe and that ironically the Europeans were the only ones able to keep it together - and he mentioned Chris Geer, whose name I've seen come up a lot around here.
Sooo, I think my parents know enough not to try to re-join The Way itself, but that they still believe that everything VPW taught and wrote was "The Truth". I'm sure that if they were confronted with knowledge of things going on now in The Way, it would all be the fault of Martindale and people who didn't "renew their minds," but VPW is king. So they're in that camp. I don't think it's a matter of whether they're in a group or not, though, I feel like they're still "in" the cult because the teachings still control the way they think.
Yeah - college definitely helped liberate me from the "mind-bending grip of the way" (I like that!) I think it was the physical distance from my parents as much as being exposed to new ideas and people who wanted to discuss them and didn't think they had all the answers. I love that LCM encouraged that - I guess it really backfired for him :)--> But how fortunate for the Way kids like you who were able to get to university.
It's funny you mention travel ... I did that too. I got an internship in Buenos Aires after college, and I ended up staying there for two years and then traveling around South America. I had always wanted to travel, but I have to say that it was in part driven by a feeling that I needed to *get away* and have space to practice thinking on my own and living my own life.
Well, I think you've got a really good attitude about the whole thing and I'm glad your Way-following family members like being around you so much. I'm sure it helps them to see you doing so well... good for you :)-->
I am doing really well too - and that definitely helps with my family, though I think they're in denial about my not believing the Way stuff anymore. It's been several years since I had the confrontation with my Dad about it, and I think he might now think it was a "phase" I was going through and that he'll be able to get me back into it. When he visited me just recently, we were talking about some of the good things going on in my life (bought a pretty house, have a nice boyfriend, writing career going well) and he commented that I must be "really practicing the believing." I think in his mind he really has to fit everything in neatly to what he believes - he can't admit that I'm NOT "practicing the believing" (at least, not in the Way/Christian sense) AND that everything's going great for me. I also worry about what would happen if something bad happened to me ... it's purely hypothetical, but it makes me upset to think that if something bad were to happen to me, my Dad and Mom would take it as proof that "that's what happens to people who are off the word."
Hi. I am off to the My Story section to look for yours. Thanks!
Also, thanks for the summary of why/how you left. Very interesting. Yeah - I remember the VP saying, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it." Haha. As a little kid, I thought that was really funny.
You wrote: I eventually realised that I didn't believe the Bible was the revealed Word of God anymore than any other book claiming the same was .... As I have moved on in a very different direction (agnostic) I have come to think that perhaps I never really believed most of it."
I had the same realization after I went off to college. To the extent I ever believed it, I think I believed it more as a "safety net" (well, I'll just believe it just in case it IS true). I have gone in a similar direction ... I'd call myself agnostic, yet spiritual if that makes any sense. There are things I believe based on my own observations and hunches and even various religious teachings BUT I fully admit they could be wrong. The only churches I can handle being in are Unitarian Universalist and Quaker meetings (which are basically just a half hour of silence with various people standing up and sharing their thoughts when they feel like it.)
You wrote: "As to having a whole family in and leaving, my wife is amazed at how well I just moved on. I don't know why I was able to do it but I did. I did have the support of my wife (who wasn't my wife at the time), father and his wife, and many of my good friends from college."
That sounds like a very solid support system. I'm sure it brought you closer to your wife and the others who helped you during that time.
You wrote: "Thank you for saying it took guts. The closest thing that I can compare it to is maybe a gay person coming out to their family and friends."
Sure! I do think that's a pretty good comparison. (Judging by the full-on spittle-flying rage my Dad reacted with when I told him I no longer believed the Way stuff.)
You said: "I did have a then friend call me a coward for not discussing my issues with them, but I knew that none of them had the answers to my reasons and any reason I gave them would just be used against me ie. "see he's possessed". So I said F*^K em', let them think what they will. They will think the same regardless of what I say."
I think that's the sanest thing you can do. If you are not into debating the doctrine, and they try to talk to you, that's probably all they'd do anyway. If you're coming from two totally different places, it might be impossible to try to talk anyway. After my dad exploded at me, I told him I wouldn't talk specifics about my beliefs unless he could be respectful of my beliefs and treat them as valid and not try to push Way beliefs on me. He never did take me up on it, but at least it kept him out of my face about it.
Anyway, thanks. You gave me a lot to think about.
BluzieQ
well that was longer than anticipated, but read my story that has more details in it....and is much longer. Maybe it'll help in some way and like I said you can always email me if you like.
Blue, you asked how I got involved at such a young age....
I was a waitress in an omelette shop .... all of the wows came by to visit and hang out... and I liked them... with the exception of one, they never witnessed to me or wore their name tags...just really nice folks who seem to have found peace.
When I finally went to a fellowship...it seemed I already knew and trusted most of them.
They offered peace, all of the answeres I needed in life, a noble purpose, a sense of belonging and of feeling needed.
Just the ticket for a love starved neglected teen.
I took pfal within a month of meeting these guys, that week, I turned 18 and graduated from high school as well.
When the wow that was undershepherding me died during the pfal class I was in (I saw the wreck) it was my first experience with death...... they told me that it was Satan trying to steal the word...so I got ****** off and decided that I would be even fiercer in my commitment I channeled my grief into learning to kick spiritual bu tt to pat him back for hurting my friend...I was on the wow field two months later....it led to ten years of unstinting service and participation in any programs that leadership deemed advisable for me....I wanted to be of service and blessing to God and people, so I did everything...I think that is your parents, blue, they really just wanted to be honorable decent people that know of only one way to do it. Too damn bad twi railroaded them into a life of bondage, by capitalising on this honorable desire:-(
The thing is like your parents probably, ... I spent 10 years there... involved exclusively with twi....I formed all of my opinions on life and spirituality...... how God works ....... what he expects of me.....
My whole perception of everything in existance and my part in it was dictated exclusivly by twi teachings....it never ever dawned on me that twi could have been wrong or didn`t have our best interests at heart.
As a matter of fact after we left, for many years, my husband and I continued to subscribe exclusively to twi dogma....we raised our children in much the same way that you described....
They were little automatons with no freedom of will, no Santa, no easter bunny, no disney films, no tv.... no non christian friends...we believed that in denying them access to these materials and influences, we were protecting them......any attempts at individual thought or consideration were quickly squashed. They were to obey first time, every time, or face the rod, you know....we were told that we were teaching them to obey God first....we believed that if we didn`t follow this that the children would not survive the spiritual battle.
I am glad that you are so forgiving of your parents dear Bluzie, We tried, even when we screwed up, we thought we were doing what was the very best for you children.
Fortunatly, after about 5 or 6 years, we began to recover in our thinking, started paying more attention to our parenting instincts....our last three children are raised in a much different environment than the first four in their early years.
Fortunatly my children are very loving and forgiving of our fooplishness...I try to be brutally honest concerning my falicies in hopes that they will learn from me....s. I can only hope that they will recover from any inadvertant burdens and baggage that we have placed on their shoulders.
I tend to be a bit more indulgent now....maybe to make up for the years that they went without....
One year when the kiddoes were young, the minister asked the kids what they were getting from santa....n in the next breath threatened em with *if you aren`t good, santa won`t bring you any presents* I went home in a rage... I told my spouse that I was going shopping and my kids were having a great christmas cause I wasn`t going to have them believing that they were some how bad....they hadn`t been good enough to get anything....my spouse disaproved, but kept his mouth shut....and we have had santa visit every since....lol
My kids now enjoy their poke mon cards (very evil as they purportedly teach operation of devil spirits)...computer games, they watch star wars..... we buy disney videos...they are in karate, in spite of the danger of succumbing to eastern religions ....and worst of all ...ulp ... they read HARRY POTTER!!!
Your parents respect of Chris Geer is very unsetteling as he was reported to be one of the meanest m.f.`ers in twi. He was cruel, he (reportedly by several) played a major part in securing and drugging if necessary young (in some cases still in their teens) girls for vp`s use.
He runs a group of people who believe all of what vp taught.
They believe vp was a great prophet and they are very intollerant of anyone who doesn`t subscribe to their ideas and methods....it is twi at it`s very most controlling and manipulating worse according to some I have spoken to.
There are several groups like them out there though....you can subscribe to tapes or news letters....
I am sorry, but they sound like they have found a nice little way to keep their world intact...it is how things make sense...
I want try to explain a little of what your parents will have to face when they consider your pov....maybe it will help you understand their intensity.
Consider that they will have to reevaluate EVERY truth that they have ever known....they will for the first time in their lives wonder where God want`s them, is he pleased, will he stop protecting them....where do they tithe and will it be enough to keep satan from destroying them....
They no doubt feel that their stand and prayers are what protects you from your unbelief.
They will have to wonder if there really IS a God, why he would allow them to be used and manipulated for their entire adult lives....their youth, their finances all squandered by wicked men who sought to fill their bellies.
They will have to come to grips with the facts that while they were recieving the word from men they respected ...these men were raping their sisters in Christ, destroying families at a whim....Is THIS the kind of guy that God would use to make known his word?
You then have to reevaluate your entire view of christianity in general....
It is DEVISTATING to find out that you have been wrong about everythong of importance your entire adult life....that your sacrafices, your struggles, the privation you endured, was all for not.......
Many would rather find a way to be *safe* find a way to excuse the evil .... so they either dismiss the testimony of those abused, accuse the the those who speak of the wrong as liars.....
If per chance one comes to grips with the stark facts.....many times in order to maintain their belief, they attempt to minimalise what occured, maybe claim that it wasn`t that bad, or that those speaking now are complainers, back biters, tale bearers, perpetual victims etc....ysome folks are even angrier with us for speaking up ...than the ones that actually perpetrated the crimes.
They have to decide ....were wierwille and his leaders mighty men of God who stumbled occasionally, so we can still safely trust their doctrine....or were they heinous villains who utilized the name of God and scriptures to molest, steal from, and destroy vulnerable souls.
Most would rather hold to the safety of their beliefs...the alternative is unthinkable.
Anyway, I hope you will be patient with your folks, it isn`t that they WANT to be foolish ....
I am sorry for the legth of this post, but thought maybe it would help to understand a little of the intensity of your parents adherance to their belief system.
It really isn`t like simply changing a pair of shoes....you know?
My friend has a saying....*the BEST revenge, is living life well* I think it would work as well in this instance if you substituted *testimony* for revenge
I think that this will speak more convincingly than any words spoken ...
Welcome bluzey. I got into twi as a young teen. I think the hardest for me was socialization into the 'real' world.
As far as your parents are concerned, I think that everyone here has given you really good advice. I think the therapist can give you some more insight knowing your family dynamics. Rascal gave some really good insight so you can see where your parents are coming from.
Thank you. You are a dear. I especially appreciate your taking the time to explain what my parents might have to go through mentally and emotionally if they look at my point of view.
I'm now kind of choked up after reading it. It makes me sad (and angry at TWI) that my parents would have to go through that kind of emotional trauma. But let me ask you this ... Do you think that if they did have to face some of the truth about VPW and TWI and rethink everything, would they end up being better off in the end? Would they be glad they "woke up" so to speak? Or would it just devastate them? And is there much harm in their just continuing to go along as they've always gone along believing the VPW doctrine, since they're not being controlled by any group now? I don't want to hurt them unnecessarily. And I know that you can't predict the future and don't know my parents so you can't really answer, but I'd love to hear your opinion as someone who's been there...
About your story ... isn't it interesting how most everyone's involvement started with some strange chance meeting? I can imagine being a waitress in an omelette shop, totally unsuspecting as you wait on these nice loving-seeming Way folks. Then slowly get sucked in. Argh. I feel for you.
I do think a lot of people who get involved do it for noble reasons ... it can seem like a really innocuous, friendly group just gettin' together to study the Bible. Then they tell you you'll be "healthy and wealthy and wise" (anyone remember that?) Then, before you know it, you're making all your life decisions, from finances to what toys your children play with to what to put on top of your Christmas tree, by what the Way says you should do...
You seem like a wonderful mother, Rascal. I like how you said you're brutally honest with your kids about past mistakes. I bet that makes for a very good relationship. And I'm glad your kids are forgiving. I'm sure the older ones are gonna be just fine. I would bet that just being able to talk about it with you goes a long way toward dealing with any leftover baggage they might have. And the younger ones sound like they are enjoying their childhoods. Karate, pokemon, reasonable parents ;)--> What more could they want?
Thanks, Rascal.
Bluzie Q
P.S. - What you said about Chris Geer was really distrubing. Can you by chance point me to any places on this site or sources where I could read more about him? Thanks!
Thanks Vickles, it really boils down to how you wish to view yourself, doesn`t it??
One would much rather see themselves as a mighty athlete, a committed warrior in the spiritual battle, striking blows for God, serving him wholeheartedly for a life time....vs feeling foolish and ashamed for allowing ones self to be manipulated into providing our vitality, our homes, our resources, the energy of our youth youth, and a huge portion of our finances, to support an oppulant lifestyle for a few.... giving them power, luxuries and pretty young women to sate evil appetites.
It ain`t pretty, and it certainly isn`t easy to look at.
That is a tough one blues, and will have to be answered with carefull consideration.
I do not have the time right now to give it full attention......
There are many folks here at gs that are in different stages of recovery.
For many, off shoots of twi provide a half way point...you know kind of safe place for a while ... as they regain their bearings.
It feels safe to be with people who still believe and think the same as you do.....speak the same language...still tell you that you are the *best* some folks need that ... for some folks it is but a step in their consideration and reevaluation of their beliefs.
Who is to say whether it is good or bad, I certainly wouldn`t dismiss their value to some.
Some participate in off shoots and it helps them and they are blessed, while some participate and are hurt further (kind of like twi eh?) Each off off shoot is different but usually subscribe to wierwille being a decent guy.....it is not up to me to judge what may or may not be of assistance in the healing of some one elses minds and hearts.
I will post more later, as I have to move some horses.....but I leave you with this lol....my husband subscribed to materials from an off shoot for many years...to his horror, I went the rout of eschewing everything twi taught, regarding anything those villains taught as suspicious....lol.....but eventually, believe it or not we ended up on the same page basically concerning our spiritual opinions....different strokes for different folks.
Hello and welcome. I was raised in TWI. Got in from age 4 left at age 17. If you wanna cht hit u my email. We may even know each other. I was in from early 70's left in the 80's. I was Junior Corps F9. I went thru much of the same stuff you did and are still going thru.
Toward the end of the nineties, early 2000, I sat in many a STS where Martinfail discussed the importance of all our kids attending college. I believe his daughter was attending Bowling Green and if memory serves me correct, he tried to influence (put out an edict)a lot of the college bound age kids to attend there also. You know so they would all be together and all be safe. I guess HIS GOD is not big enough to keep them all safe if they were spread out all over. Also, you were not allowed to take loans out for this, you must pay for it all and continue to be debt free. (I am sure, with all due respect to his daughter) that alot of our ABS paid her tuition though.
Anywhoos, my daughter did not want to go to Bowling Green and on May 22 of this year just graduated (Proud MaMa) from Ohio Northern University. She doesn't seem any worse for the wear. She nows has a BA in psychology with a minor in sociology.
Although when we were marked and avoided, my children were terriby frightened that at any moment they could die. By having to refute this over and over to my children, I began to realize how horrible this TWI had become, to instill this kind of fear into us and our children. Worse was that I allowed it. I have apologized to my children for this and they are now cool with everything and doing just fine in their schooling and soon to be new career (for the oldest).
I thought it odd that he so propounded college for all the kids. Wouldn't this open their minds to so many new ways of thinking?? I am thinking he felt they were the future of the ministry and by getting degrees and making good money, the ABS would continue to flow his way. What a freak he was and is.
I remember once upon a time in twi we first generation wayfers would look upon you second generation wayfers when you were kids and say something stupid like " Oh, you don't know how fortunate you are to not have to go through the junk we had to endure."
The reality is (in most cases) that a childhood spent inside twi compared to a childhood spent outside on the junk meter is like comparing the city landfill to the recycle bin on my computer desktop.
I am feeling reall welcome here :)--> I think I'll be hanging around quite a bit.
Georgio -
Nice to meet you. Sounds a lot like me , age-wise. (I was in at 0, out at 18). I was never in Junior Corps though. While I was small we were in Ohio, then my parents moved to western NY state. I am pretty sure I probably don't know you, unless we would have met at ROA. I shudder to think what Junior Corps must have been like. Do you still have friends who were in with you?
Outofadog - Thanks! That's cool your daughter decided to go to college and do her own thing! Glad she's no worse for the wear.
Raf - Hi! Nice to meet you.
Oenophile - Hmmmm. That saying sounds familiar :)--> I have to say I agree with you re: junk. As a kid I always had this vague feeling of being trapped and oppressed by Way junk, and then when I got away it was a great feeling of freedom. Oh, I love wine too by the way :)-->
when i was a wayfer, my family was very loving and tolerant. i'll always be thankful for that -- and for them.
even when i was preaching up a storm -- and like i told here before, i bought them all "jesus christ is not god" books one christmas (big irish roman catholic family) -- they still loved me.
I wasn't raised in TWI, but I can draw a lot of parallels from what you're saying.
quote:
Anyway, when I went to college and started taking classes in philosophy, history etc., it was like the world opened up to me
I was raised by extremely liberal people. But they were IMO abusive. They dissed religion at every opportunity, quick to point out every speck of hypocrisy they could fabricate. Taking PFAL at 22 was like the world opened up for me.
My wife was raised in a super strict protestant denomination called the Christian Reformed church. They couldn't do anything on Sunday other than go to church. The people next door were Christian Reformed. One Sunday the kid about my age was standing on the front lawn enjoying the sun after church when a car pulled up and a black suit covered pointing hand flew out the driver's side window. The kid looked terrified and fled into his house. Must've been a close one. That's the kind of atmosphere she grew up in. Taking PFAL at 19 was like the world opened up for her. Has it occurred to you that groups like TWI exist because enough people were raised in something else that abused them? They had to get closure somewhere.
quote: so I very calmly told my dad that I no longer shared their beliefs. He went ballistic - red faced, screaming at me, trying to interrogate me about my beliefs. It was really ugly.
There was a TWI guy whose dad came to see him. The dad was a belligerant blowhard who railed on TWI non stop. Finally the guy had enough and slammed his fists down and said, "Look! You're in MY house, you're eating MY food, and you're drinking MY beer! If you can't speak any more politely than that, GET OUT!!!" The dad, howbeit reluctantly, altered his behavior. You can do that with your dad if it comes to that, can't you?
You're not a child anymore; you're a grown up. Why should your dad treat you with respect if you don't?
I feel bad for anyone who's family was more abusive than TWI.
For me, TWI lead to bondage. I suspect that one of the reasons my kids are so perfectionistic was their early years with Waybot mom(me.) We're helping them, we no longer hold those type of expectations or 'rod of correction' but then we're still figuring it out ourselves.
All my kids are straight A students, and sometimes I wonder about that. Is it healthy? I hope so. I hope they are seeing the types of doors that open for them when they work hard, that they are seeing rewards for their work, that they are not driven by some type of fear. Because, quite honestly, fear motivation is what we taught them for many years. They go to an acclerated school,too,so are surrounded by kids that are very driven.They don't seem too stressed out. Still, I wonder if we made the best choice there.
Years ago, when we were still in TWI, one of my kids had to see the nurse every afternoon for tums for the stomach. Kid was in an accelerated math group, and it was much harder. At the time, I couldn't figure it out. Now I understand the need to be perfect was upsetting this child, who made more mistakes in the accelerated class.Duh.
"so I very calmly told my dad that I no longer shared their beliefs. He went ballistic - red faced, screaming at me, trying to interrogate me about my beliefs. It was really ugly."
There was a TWI guy whose dad came to see him. The dad was a belligerant blowhard who railed on TWI non stop. Finally the guy had enough and slammed his fists down and said, "Look! You're in MY house, you're eating MY food, and you're drinking MY beer! If you can't speak any more politely than that, GET OUT!!!" The dad, howbeit reluctantly, altered his behavior. You can do that with your dad if it comes to that, can't you?
You're not a child anymore; you're a grown up. Why should your dad treat you with respect if you don't?
Uuhmmmm, Johniam. I do believe that he *did* act with self-respect. With self-control and all that. And no, his dad had NO call to treat him with such dis-respect due to some straw man excuse that you bring up that he supposedly didn't have self-respect; ... which his example clearly illustrated that he did.
Welcome to the spot!!!!! I remember the first time I found this wonderful place. It was incredible and is still. I'm very glad that you are here. :)--> :)-->
No kidding. How about older guys of a good vintage year? We are mellow because we have figured out fighting is futile. Heady, because there is more of it to see because there is less hair and finally at our age we usually exhibit a lush, round body.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
14
14
25
28
Popular Days
Jul 8
26
Jul 26
23
Jul 20
17
Jul 10
15
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 14 posts
Oakspear 14 posts
johniam 25 posts
BluzieQ 28 posts
Popular Days
Jul 8 2005
26 posts
Jul 26 2005
23 posts
Jul 20 2005
17 posts
Jul 10 2005
15 posts
lindyhopper
Timtim,
well as a female with a name like timtim, I can't say I know you.
;)--> Although, my family was in pretty deep (family corps, etc.) and I knew many local wayfers and staffers, so if you've been in the Ohio area for long maybe we do know eachother.
BluzieQ,
That could be along story. Maybe look up my story in the "my story" forum and find the thread entitled "put this in your pipe and smoke it" (an old VP saying if you didn't know already, not just a drug reference, haha). That gives a number of reasons as well as some crazy stories.
I think I could boil it down to a simple idea though. After many years of sitting thru classes, seeing people come and go, never "winning" anyone to "the Word", etc etc., I began to wonder what was it that made people believe. "How do I reach those people?" Martinfail made a new class with a similar session to the PFAL session "The integrity of the Word". "This is what it all comes down to", they would say. Their answer? "lets go to the Word of God and see what it says about itself." Seemed kinda circular. The title of the session itself was circular. I eventually realised that I didn't believe the Bible was the revealed Word of God anymore than any other book claiming the same was.
So while some here picked away at this doctrine and that doctrine (not that there is anything wrong with that), I wacked my foundation right out from under myself. LOL Somehow taking it all instide. As I have moved on in a very different direction (agnostic) I have come to think that perhaps I never really believed most of it.
As to having a whole family in and leaving, my wife is amazed at how well I just moved on. I don't know why I was able to do it but I did. I did have the support of my wife (who wasn't my wife at the time), father and his wife, and many of my good friends from college. I doubt I could have done it without that support. Thank you for saying it took guts. The closest thing that I can compare it to is maybe a gay person coming out to their family and friends. I did have a then friend call me a coward for not discussing my issues with them, but I knew that none of them had the answers to my reasons and any reason I gave them would just be used against me ie. "see he's possessed". So I said F*^K em', let them think what they will. They will think the same regardless of what I say.
well that was longer than anticipated, but read my story that has more details in it....and is much longer. Maybe it'll help in some way and like I said you can always email me if you like.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BluzieQ
Hi Zshot,
You said:" As I am sure that you have noticed, being "likeminded" is not required for being or posting here."
I have noticed and I think it's great! Everyone seems very accepting regardless of the differences. Thanks for the welcome.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BluzieQ
Hi Belle,
Thanks for the welcome, and I love your posts! Yum - danish sounds good
:)-->
Anyway, Just wanted to say I read your story on the My Story section and was amazed. You really stood up for yourself and for what you thought was right. I'm very sorry you lost your marriage over it. But glad you're doing so much better than when you were "in."
Thanks for the book recommendation. That might be just what I need to learn how to frame questions that won't put my family on the defensive...
See ya around,
BluzieQ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BluzieQ
Hi again everyone,
I am still really enjoying reading all your posts and the many points of view. Thank you all.
ozbirdau -- I think you're lucky (oops!) that you got out while your boys were still young. Good for you. I can't believe the treatment of the children you described on the Indiana campus. Good for you for sticking up for the kids though even if it meant you got "reproved." And I do know that the parents are doing what they think is best at the time, sadly ... And thanks for your encouragement re: my parents.
coolchef - thank you ... and i bet your kids do have great santa memories.
dmiller -
You make a very good point about how different TWI is today...I've gathered a lot about how it's changed from reading here and other sites. After my parents stopped going to fellowship, they were pretty tightlipped, but I gathered they knew about some problems with Martindale, and that the way had changed somewhat. I don't know if they know specifically about the change in doctrine.
Since for so long we've had the unspoken agreement not to talk about TWI or "The Word," I haven't been able to glean much. But when my Dad recently started going on his "Way kick" again and sent me a long e-mail about how "blessed" he is to have read the PFAL book again, etc., and asking if I'd like to see it, I e-mailed back casually asking whether he and my mom ever think of re-joining the Way and what's going on with the Way now, anyway.
He didn't repsond for several days, and I could tell he was probably thinking about what to say. He finally replied that the Way had "gone through a big split during some difficult times after Dr. Wierwille passed away." He went on to write that "Many of the people were not willing to renew their minds and The Way as it is now is just not the same." He says that he and my mom are content to "study on their own" for now because "God is personal as long as you know his Word and believe that all the principles still work." And he says, "It's great to operate the principles to understand many of the reasons things are the way they are on earth right now."
When he was here visiting and he tried to talk to my boyfriend about the Way, he said that the Way is supposedly thriving in Europe and that ironically the Europeans were the only ones able to keep it together - and he mentioned Chris Geer, whose name I've seen come up a lot around here.
Sooo, I think my parents know enough not to try to re-join The Way itself, but that they still believe that everything VPW taught and wrote was "The Truth". I'm sure that if they were confronted with knowledge of things going on now in The Way, it would all be the fault of Martindale and people who didn't "renew their minds," but VPW is king. So they're in that camp. I don't think it's a matter of whether they're in a group or not, though, I feel like they're still "in" the cult because the teachings still control the way they think.
Hope that answers your questions!
BluzieQ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BluzieQ
Thelema,
Yeah - college definitely helped liberate me from the "mind-bending grip of the way" (I like that!) I think it was the physical distance from my parents as much as being exposed to new ideas and people who wanted to discuss them and didn't think they had all the answers. I love that LCM encouraged that - I guess it really backfired for him
:)--> But how fortunate for the Way kids like you who were able to get to university.
It's funny you mention travel ... I did that too. I got an internship in Buenos Aires after college, and I ended up staying there for two years and then traveling around South America. I had always wanted to travel, but I have to say that it was in part driven by a feeling that I needed to *get away* and have space to practice thinking on my own and living my own life.
Well, I think you've got a really good attitude about the whole thing and I'm glad your Way-following family members like being around you so much. I'm sure it helps them to see you doing so well... good for you
:)-->
I am doing really well too - and that definitely helps with my family, though I think they're in denial about my not believing the Way stuff anymore. It's been several years since I had the confrontation with my Dad about it, and I think he might now think it was a "phase" I was going through and that he'll be able to get me back into it. When he visited me just recently, we were talking about some of the good things going on in my life (bought a pretty house, have a nice boyfriend, writing career going well) and he commented that I must be "really practicing the believing." I think in his mind he really has to fit everything in neatly to what he believes - he can't admit that I'm NOT "practicing the believing" (at least, not in the Way/Christian sense) AND that everything's going great for me. I also worry about what would happen if something bad happened to me ... it's purely hypothetical, but it makes me upset to think that if something bad were to happen to me, my Dad and Mom would take it as proof that "that's what happens to people who are off the word."
Anyway, thanks for your post!
BluzieQ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BluzieQ
Lindy,
Hi. I am off to the My Story section to look for yours. Thanks!
Also, thanks for the summary of why/how you left. Very interesting. Yeah - I remember the VP saying, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it." Haha. As a little kid, I thought that was really funny.
You wrote: I eventually realised that I didn't believe the Bible was the revealed Word of God anymore than any other book claiming the same was .... As I have moved on in a very different direction (agnostic) I have come to think that perhaps I never really believed most of it."
I had the same realization after I went off to college. To the extent I ever believed it, I think I believed it more as a "safety net" (well, I'll just believe it just in case it IS true). I have gone in a similar direction ... I'd call myself agnostic, yet spiritual if that makes any sense. There are things I believe based on my own observations and hunches and even various religious teachings BUT I fully admit they could be wrong. The only churches I can handle being in are Unitarian Universalist and Quaker meetings (which are basically just a half hour of silence with various people standing up and sharing their thoughts when they feel like it.)
You wrote: "As to having a whole family in and leaving, my wife is amazed at how well I just moved on. I don't know why I was able to do it but I did. I did have the support of my wife (who wasn't my wife at the time), father and his wife, and many of my good friends from college."
That sounds like a very solid support system. I'm sure it brought you closer to your wife and the others who helped you during that time.
You wrote: "Thank you for saying it took guts. The closest thing that I can compare it to is maybe a gay person coming out to their family and friends."
Sure! I do think that's a pretty good comparison. (Judging by the full-on spittle-flying rage my Dad reacted with when I told him I no longer believed the Way stuff.)
You said: "I did have a then friend call me a coward for not discussing my issues with them, but I knew that none of them had the answers to my reasons and any reason I gave them would just be used against me ie. "see he's possessed". So I said F*^K em', let them think what they will. They will think the same regardless of what I say."
I think that's the sanest thing you can do. If you are not into debating the doctrine, and they try to talk to you, that's probably all they'd do anyway. If you're coming from two totally different places, it might be impossible to try to talk anyway. After my dad exploded at me, I told him I wouldn't talk specifics about my beliefs unless he could be respectful of my beliefs and treat them as valid and not try to push Way beliefs on me. He never did take me up on it, but at least it kept him out of my face about it.
Anyway, thanks. You gave me a lot to think about.
BluzieQ
well that was longer than anticipated, but read my story that has more details in it....and is much longer. Maybe it'll help in some way and like I said you can always email me if you like.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
How did we go from being the rebellious kids leaving our parents' religion to the old fogeys whose religion the kids were running from?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Blue, you asked how I got involved at such a young age....
I was a waitress in an omelette shop .... all of the wows came by to visit and hang out... and I liked them... with the exception of one, they never witnessed to me or wore their name tags...just really nice folks who seem to have found peace.
When I finally went to a fellowship...it seemed I already knew and trusted most of them.
They offered peace, all of the answeres I needed in life, a noble purpose, a sense of belonging and of feeling needed.
Just the ticket for a love starved neglected teen.
I took pfal within a month of meeting these guys, that week, I turned 18 and graduated from high school as well.
When the wow that was undershepherding me died during the pfal class I was in (I saw the wreck) it was my first experience with death...... they told me that it was Satan trying to steal the word...so I got ****** off and decided that I would be even fiercer in my commitment I channeled my grief into learning to kick spiritual bu tt to pat him back for hurting my friend...I was on the wow field two months later....it led to ten years of unstinting service and participation in any programs that leadership deemed advisable for me....I wanted to be of service and blessing to God and people, so I did everything...I think that is your parents, blue, they really just wanted to be honorable decent people that know of only one way to do it. Too damn bad twi railroaded them into a life of bondage, by capitalising on this honorable desire:-(
The thing is like your parents probably, ... I spent 10 years there... involved exclusively with twi....I formed all of my opinions on life and spirituality...... how God works ....... what he expects of me.....
My whole perception of everything in existance and my part in it was dictated exclusivly by twi teachings....it never ever dawned on me that twi could have been wrong or didn`t have our best interests at heart.
As a matter of fact after we left, for many years, my husband and I continued to subscribe exclusively to twi dogma....we raised our children in much the same way that you described....
They were little automatons with no freedom of will, no Santa, no easter bunny, no disney films, no tv.... no non christian friends...we believed that in denying them access to these materials and influences, we were protecting them......any attempts at individual thought or consideration were quickly squashed. They were to obey first time, every time, or face the rod, you know....we were told that we were teaching them to obey God first....we believed that if we didn`t follow this that the children would not survive the spiritual battle.
I am glad that you are so forgiving of your parents dear Bluzie, We tried, even when we screwed up, we thought we were doing what was the very best for you children.
Fortunatly, after about 5 or 6 years, we began to recover in our thinking, started paying more attention to our parenting instincts....our last three children are raised in a much different environment than the first four in their early years.
Fortunatly my children are very loving and forgiving of our fooplishness...I try to be brutally honest concerning my falicies in hopes that they will learn from me....s. I can only hope that they will recover from any inadvertant burdens and baggage that we have placed on their shoulders.
I tend to be a bit more indulgent now....maybe to make up for the years that they went without....
One year when the kiddoes were young, the minister asked the kids what they were getting from santa....n in the next breath threatened em with *if you aren`t good, santa won`t bring you any presents* I went home in a rage... I told my spouse that I was going shopping and my kids were having a great christmas cause I wasn`t going to have them believing that they were some how bad....they hadn`t been good enough to get anything....my spouse disaproved, but kept his mouth shut....and we have had santa visit every since....lol
My kids now enjoy their poke mon cards (very evil as they purportedly teach operation of devil spirits)...computer games, they watch star wars..... we buy disney videos...they are in karate, in spite of the danger of succumbing to eastern religions ....and worst of all ...ulp ... they read HARRY POTTER!!!
Your parents respect of Chris Geer is very unsetteling as he was reported to be one of the meanest m.f.`ers in twi. He was cruel, he (reportedly by several) played a major part in securing and drugging if necessary young (in some cases still in their teens) girls for vp`s use.
He runs a group of people who believe all of what vp taught.
They believe vp was a great prophet and they are very intollerant of anyone who doesn`t subscribe to their ideas and methods....it is twi at it`s very most controlling and manipulating worse according to some I have spoken to.
There are several groups like them out there though....you can subscribe to tapes or news letters....
I am sorry, but they sound like they have found a nice little way to keep their world intact...it is how things make sense...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I want try to explain a little of what your parents will have to face when they consider your pov....maybe it will help you understand their intensity.
Consider that they will have to reevaluate EVERY truth that they have ever known....they will for the first time in their lives wonder where God want`s them, is he pleased, will he stop protecting them....where do they tithe and will it be enough to keep satan from destroying them....
They no doubt feel that their stand and prayers are what protects you from your unbelief.
They will have to wonder if there really IS a God, why he would allow them to be used and manipulated for their entire adult lives....their youth, their finances all squandered by wicked men who sought to fill their bellies.
They will have to come to grips with the facts that while they were recieving the word from men they respected ...these men were raping their sisters in Christ, destroying families at a whim....Is THIS the kind of guy that God would use to make known his word?
You then have to reevaluate your entire view of christianity in general....
It is DEVISTATING to find out that you have been wrong about everythong of importance your entire adult life....that your sacrafices, your struggles, the privation you endured, was all for not.......
Many would rather find a way to be *safe* find a way to excuse the evil .... so they either dismiss the testimony of those abused, accuse the the those who speak of the wrong as liars.....
If per chance one comes to grips with the stark facts.....many times in order to maintain their belief, they attempt to minimalise what occured, maybe claim that it wasn`t that bad, or that those speaking now are complainers, back biters, tale bearers, perpetual victims etc....ysome folks are even angrier with us for speaking up ...than the ones that actually perpetrated the crimes.
They have to decide ....were wierwille and his leaders mighty men of God who stumbled occasionally, so we can still safely trust their doctrine....or were they heinous villains who utilized the name of God and scriptures to molest, steal from, and destroy vulnerable souls.
Most would rather hold to the safety of their beliefs...the alternative is unthinkable.
Anyway, I hope you will be patient with your folks, it isn`t that they WANT to be foolish ....
I am sorry for the legth of this post, but thought maybe it would help to understand a little of the intensity of your parents adherance to their belief system.
It really isn`t like simply changing a pair of shoes....you know?
My friend has a saying....*the BEST revenge, is living life well* I think it would work as well in this instance if you substituted *testimony* for revenge
I think that this will speak more convincingly than any words spoken ...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
Welcome bluzey. I got into twi as a young teen. I think the hardest for me was socialization into the 'real' world.
As far as your parents are concerned, I think that everyone here has given you really good advice. I think the therapist can give you some more insight knowing your family dynamics. Rascal gave some really good insight so you can see where your parents are coming from.
Looking forward to seeing you here!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BluzieQ
Rascal,
Thank you. You are a dear. I especially appreciate your taking the time to explain what my parents might have to go through mentally and emotionally if they look at my point of view.
I'm now kind of choked up after reading it. It makes me sad (and angry at TWI) that my parents would have to go through that kind of emotional trauma. But let me ask you this ... Do you think that if they did have to face some of the truth about VPW and TWI and rethink everything, would they end up being better off in the end? Would they be glad they "woke up" so to speak? Or would it just devastate them? And is there much harm in their just continuing to go along as they've always gone along believing the VPW doctrine, since they're not being controlled by any group now? I don't want to hurt them unnecessarily. And I know that you can't predict the future and don't know my parents so you can't really answer, but I'd love to hear your opinion as someone who's been there...
About your story ... isn't it interesting how most everyone's involvement started with some strange chance meeting? I can imagine being a waitress in an omelette shop, totally unsuspecting as you wait on these nice loving-seeming Way folks. Then slowly get sucked in. Argh. I feel for you.
I do think a lot of people who get involved do it for noble reasons ... it can seem like a really innocuous, friendly group just gettin' together to study the Bible. Then they tell you you'll be "healthy and wealthy and wise" (anyone remember that?) Then, before you know it, you're making all your life decisions, from finances to what toys your children play with to what to put on top of your Christmas tree, by what the Way says you should do...
You seem like a wonderful mother, Rascal. I like how you said you're brutally honest with your kids about past mistakes. I bet that makes for a very good relationship. And I'm glad your kids are forgiving. I'm sure the older ones are gonna be just fine. I would bet that just being able to talk about it with you goes a long way toward dealing with any leftover baggage they might have. And the younger ones sound like they are enjoying their childhoods. Karate, pokemon, reasonable parents
;)--> What more could they want?
Thanks, Rascal.
Bluzie Q
P.S. - What you said about Chris Geer was really distrubing. Can you by chance point me to any places on this site or sources where I could read more about him? Thanks!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Thanks Vickles, it really boils down to how you wish to view yourself, doesn`t it??
One would much rather see themselves as a mighty athlete, a committed warrior in the spiritual battle, striking blows for God, serving him wholeheartedly for a life time....vs feeling foolish and ashamed for allowing ones self to be manipulated into providing our vitality, our homes, our resources, the energy of our youth youth, and a huge portion of our finances, to support an oppulant lifestyle for a few.... giving them power, luxuries and pretty young women to sate evil appetites.
It ain`t pretty, and it certainly isn`t easy to look at.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
That is a tough one blues, and will have to be answered with carefull consideration.
I do not have the time right now to give it full attention......
There are many folks here at gs that are in different stages of recovery.
For many, off shoots of twi provide a half way point...you know kind of safe place for a while ... as they regain their bearings.
It feels safe to be with people who still believe and think the same as you do.....speak the same language...still tell you that you are the *best* some folks need that ... for some folks it is but a step in their consideration and reevaluation of their beliefs.
Who is to say whether it is good or bad, I certainly wouldn`t dismiss their value to some.
Some participate in off shoots and it helps them and they are blessed, while some participate and are hurt further (kind of like twi eh?) Each off off shoot is different but usually subscribe to wierwille being a decent guy.....it is not up to me to judge what may or may not be of assistance in the healing of some one elses minds and hearts.
I will post more later, as I have to move some horses.....but I leave you with this lol....my husband subscribed to materials from an off shoot for many years...to his horror, I went the rout of eschewing everything twi taught, regarding anything those villains taught as suspicious....lol.....but eventually, believe it or not we ended up on the same page basically concerning our spiritual opinions....different strokes for different folks.
More later....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Georgio Jessio
Hello and welcome. I was raised in TWI. Got in from age 4 left at age 17. If you wanna cht hit u my email. We may even know each other. I was in from early 70's left in the 80's. I was Junior Corps F9. I went thru much of the same stuff you did and are still going thru.
peace
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
BluzieQ - you go girl!
Toward the end of the nineties, early 2000, I sat in many a STS where Martinfail discussed the importance of all our kids attending college. I believe his daughter was attending Bowling Green and if memory serves me correct, he tried to influence (put out an edict)a lot of the college bound age kids to attend there also. You know so they would all be together and all be safe. I guess HIS GOD is not big enough to keep them all safe if they were spread out all over. Also, you were not allowed to take loans out for this, you must pay for it all and continue to be debt free. (I am sure, with all due respect to his daughter) that alot of our ABS paid her tuition though.
Anywhoos, my daughter did not want to go to Bowling Green and on May 22 of this year just graduated (Proud MaMa) from Ohio Northern University. She doesn't seem any worse for the wear. She nows has a BA in psychology with a minor in sociology.
Although when we were marked and avoided, my children were terriby frightened that at any moment they could die. By having to refute this over and over to my children, I began to realize how horrible this TWI had become, to instill this kind of fear into us and our children. Worse was that I allowed it. I have apologized to my children for this and they are now cool with everything and doing just fine in their schooling and soon to be new career (for the oldest).
I thought it odd that he so propounded college for all the kids. Wouldn't this open their minds to so many new ways of thinking?? I am thinking he felt they were the future of the ministry and by getting degrees and making good money, the ABS would continue to flow his way. What a freak he was and is.
Welcome to greasespot world.
-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Sorry I took so long to WELCOME BLUZIEQ!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
Welcome to Greasespot, Bluzieq!
I remember once upon a time in twi we first generation wayfers would look upon you second generation wayfers when you were kids and say something stupid like " Oh, you don't know how fortunate you are to not have to go through the junk we had to endure."
The reality is (in most cases) that a childhood spent inside twi compared to a childhood spent outside on the junk meter is like comparing the city landfill to the recycle bin on my computer desktop.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BluzieQ
Hi,
I am feeling reall welcome here
:)--> I think I'll be hanging around quite a bit.
Georgio -
Nice to meet you. Sounds a lot like me , age-wise. (I was in at 0, out at 18). I was never in Junior Corps though. While I was small we were in Ohio, then my parents moved to western NY state. I am pretty sure I probably don't know you, unless we would have met at ROA. I shudder to think what Junior Corps must have been like. Do you still have friends who were in with you?
Outofadog - Thanks! That's cool your daughter decided to go to college and do her own thing! Glad she's no worse for the wear.
Raf - Hi! Nice to meet you.
Oenophile - Hmmmm. That saying sounds familiar
:)--> I have to say I agree with you re: junk. As a kid I always had this vague feeling of being trapped and oppressed by Way junk, and then when I got away it was a great feeling of freedom. Oh, I love wine too by the way 
:)-->
BluzieQ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
hey bluzie
when i was a wayfer, my family was very loving and tolerant. i'll always be thankful for that -- and for them.
even when i was preaching up a storm -- and like i told here before, i bought them all "jesus christ is not god" books one christmas (big irish roman catholic family) -- they still loved me.
i'm lucky.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
I wasn't raised in TWI, but I can draw a lot of parallels from what you're saying.
I was raised by extremely liberal people. But they were IMO abusive. They dissed religion at every opportunity, quick to point out every speck of hypocrisy they could fabricate. Taking PFAL at 22 was like the world opened up for me.
My wife was raised in a super strict protestant denomination called the Christian Reformed church. They couldn't do anything on Sunday other than go to church. The people next door were Christian Reformed. One Sunday the kid about my age was standing on the front lawn enjoying the sun after church when a car pulled up and a black suit covered pointing hand flew out the driver's side window. The kid looked terrified and fled into his house. Must've been a close one. That's the kind of atmosphere she grew up in. Taking PFAL at 19 was like the world opened up for her. Has it occurred to you that groups like TWI exist because enough people were raised in something else that abused them? They had to get closure somewhere.
quote: so I very calmly told my dad that I no longer shared their beliefs. He went ballistic - red faced, screaming at me, trying to interrogate me about my beliefs. It was really ugly.
There was a TWI guy whose dad came to see him. The dad was a belligerant blowhard who railed on TWI non stop. Finally the guy had enough and slammed his fists down and said, "Look! You're in MY house, you're eating MY food, and you're drinking MY beer! If you can't speak any more politely than that, GET OUT!!!" The dad, howbeit reluctantly, altered his behavior. You can do that with your dad if it comes to that, can't you?
You're not a child anymore; you're a grown up. Why should your dad treat you with respect if you don't?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
I feel bad for anyone who's family was more abusive than TWI.
For me, TWI lead to bondage. I suspect that one of the reasons my kids are so perfectionistic was their early years with Waybot mom(me.) We're helping them, we no longer hold those type of expectations or 'rod of correction' but then we're still figuring it out ourselves.
All my kids are straight A students, and sometimes I wonder about that. Is it healthy? I hope so. I hope they are seeing the types of doors that open for them when they work hard, that they are seeing rewards for their work, that they are not driven by some type of fear. Because, quite honestly, fear motivation is what we taught them for many years. They go to an acclerated school,too,so are surrounded by kids that are very driven.They don't seem too stressed out. Still, I wonder if we made the best choice there.
Years ago, when we were still in TWI, one of my kids had to see the nurse every afternoon for tums for the stomach. Kid was in an accelerated math group, and it was much harder. At the time, I couldn't figure it out. Now I understand the need to be perfect was upsetting this child, who made more mistakes in the accelerated class.Duh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Uuhmmmm, Johniam. I do believe that he *did* act with self-respect. With self-control and all that. And no, his dad had NO call to treat him with such dis-respect due to some straw man excuse that you bring up that he supposedly didn't have self-respect; ... which his example clearly illustrated that he did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
gladtobeout
BluzieQ
Welcome to the spot!!!!! I remember the first time I found this wonderful place. It was incredible and is still. I'm very glad that you are here.
:)--> 
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
Bluzieq wrote:
No kidding. How about older guys of a good vintage year? We are mellow because we have figured out fighting is futile. Heady, because there is more of it to see because there is less hair and finally at our age we usually exhibit a lush, round body.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.