I think it should be both because if a person is messing with someone else's wife the night before and lying to his own, yes he can lead praise and worship on Sunday morning and make a joyful noice, but for the spiritually perceptive who are there, something just won't be right. I mean, that inner voice will be telling you something but you might not be able to put your finger on it.
If this is something that goes on for a long period of time, the spiritual atmosphere of the church just wouldn't be right and I'd eventually have ta get outta there.
The way I gauge it is if it doesn't feel right, LEAVE. That's why we were given spiritual senses to tell us when something is right (godly) and when something isn't right (ungodly). We don't even have to know WHY or the specifics just THAT it's not a nurturing, and positive environment for us to be in.
I mean, it could be the pastor is gossiping about the flock and not adultery. My point is that when the leaders of the church are engaging in activity that is ungodly and they don't think it's wrong, the congregation will be affected and will feel confused and will wonder why they're not being inspired instead of enjoying the services.
I knew someone would say that and I agree. Again, that is just an example of someone leading in the church who can't be making very godly decisions if he is engaging in that kind of activity.
Suppose its the pastor who slanders the flock on a regular basis but who can preach REALLY well. Don't you think Christian character affects everything we do? I mean, there are certain things that one does to disqualify them from being a true servant and if so, their church, as a result is going to dwindle, don't you think?
I like that article. We have already experienced some of this in twit world. So called great teachings and whatever while leader.... were doing so many awful things. Look at what hurt and destruction it brought. TWI might be a different organization today if they had truly focused on trying to be Christ- Like and not gotten into the "look at me and what I can do" mindset.
I mean it says we are saved by grace and if we begin comparing who is righteous and who is not by how we live wouldnt that be working our way to being saved by our deeds done or not done?
I do think it is ego , but I think it is how Gods will is.
that is why I read to keep our eyes on Jesus as the Saviour not on men. or what they can do.
.... many of our seminaries do not focus on becoming Christlike, but rather devote themselves primarily to theology and hermeneutics. Obviously, we need correct biblical knowledge, but even more do we need conformity to Christ.
True. The seminaries spend time teaching the book knowledge, cuz they can. I wonder if it is possible for them to teach a student how to be Christlike?? Wouldn't that be more a matter of one's own heart, and personal committment?
quote:
You see, our gifts are necessary and understanding our calling is vital. Yet, attaining the nature of Christ is our destiny.
Beloved, as we approach the end of the age, a new priority is coming to God's people: the summing up of "all things in Christ" (see Eph 1:9-10). Both our gifts and our calling must serve our destiny, which is to reveal the nature of Christ.
I think this says it pretty well. We may have gifts/callings (whatever) and they should be used to further the cause of Christ, as we are being more Christlike.:)-->
Does anyone think it's "either or" and why is it so hard for some very gifted people to become or remain Christ-like? Is it ego or what?
That's a good question!! My thinking is that the very gifted (in whatever their calling or talent is), get the same temptations we do. And since they are more high profile, they get it more than the rest of us, making it easier to succumb.
I don't see how they could justify doing wrong, and still maintain their *office* with a clear conscience though. Especially if they are in ministry work, like a few folks we know from the past.
I mean it says we are saved by grace and if we begin comparing who is righteous and who is not by how we live wouldnt that be working our way to being saved by our deeds done or not done?
MJ -- yea -- I think so. Especially *if we begin comparing*, like you said.
But I think that looking at how a person lives their life (ie -- do they practice what they preach) is neither judgemental, nor is it relegating their salvation to the works they do or don't do.. I think it is just being honest and holding them accountable to themselves, and the people they are in charge of -- be it a youth group, a worship team, an entire church, a radio ministry, any of that stuff.
And if the accountability that they are held to is biblically based, then we are not forcing them to *work* for their salvation. :)-->
That's a good question!! My thinking is that the very gifted (in whatever their calling or talent is), get the same temptations we do. And since they are more high profile, they get it more than the rest of us, making it easier to succumb.
Temptation is certainly there for all. My point is more if the person makes a lifestyle choice to remain in a specific sin involving other people in their church, then, their character will affect their ministry in a negative way.
As someone in the congregation or leadership team, it could be even as subtle as, "Gee, couldn't put my finger on it, but something just isn't right here."
I would think becoming (or seeking to become) "Christ-like" would be an immense "gift" in and of itself - and that perhaps all that other stuff (healing abilities, etc.) might naturally follow, and if so -would be authentic at that..."Though I speak in the tongues of men or angels, but have not love, I am nothing".
Otherwise, we may just as well be mere sorcerers or magicians, rather than "Christians", if outward exhibitions of razzle-dazzle "power" is the expectation or assumed validation.
How do we become more "Christ-like"?
I think feeding on His sayings in the Gospels might be a great place to start...treat others with love and compassion and great patience, as He would have us do...put off the "old god" (with all his anger, wrath, judgment, condemnation and jealousy) - essentially the "old man" which is created in this god's image - and put on the new God, Who is Love.
I wonder if God feels like "tossing His cookies" when He hears people like that speaking his word.. it does that to me.
Seems more often than not, people in that category are operating a scam, not a "gift". May look religious, bring tears to some folks eyes, but so can cutting an onion.
Case in point. MAYBE he had a ministry, MAYBE he did some good for some at one time, BUT-
Where were the miracles validating VP's "ministry"? And yes, he claimed to have a healing ministry, or "gift" if you will.
But I NEVER saw one. Not once. I heard a lot of claims though. And this self-appointed spokesman for the lord claimed he had knowledge like it had not been known since the first century. Ptooie. Just another scam, at least at one point.
Behavior seems to validate or invalidate any calling.
A pastor can still preach and even inspire the congregation, though he is living in serious sin.
I partly agree, but I don't think he inspires them in a godly manner.
I have heard some "sermons" that should have shaken the world to its foundations, at least for me. But I found myself sitting back wondering how somewhere I was "missing it".
Perhaps that is why loy and crowd had to scream at the top of their lungs. What they said no longer had any valid effect.
Maybe the "gift" was still there, but no power, no love. No "sound mind" either.
Temptation is certainly there for all. My point is more if the person makes a lifestyle choice to remain in a specific sin involving other people in their church, then, their character will affect their ministry in a negative way.
WB --- In a word -- yes -- good point, and duely noted! ;)-->
I think feeding on His sayings in the Gospels might be a great place to start...treat others with love and compassion and great patience, as He would have us do..
I agree. Getting back to words of Christ in the Gospels, is fundamental. :)-->
"The preacher" said that it is more important to be Christ-like than to operate one's gifts and callings because one may operate gifts and callings aside from one's character whereas being Christ-like involves the character of a person - or words to that effect.
I don't believe that is true. I believe everyone's gift is uniquely matched to that one's total identity. Body, soul, and spirit operate as one within an individual. One can no more operate gifts and callings without regard to character than without a soul or a body.
God energizes the spirit within an individual in the light of who that one is - differently than He does within another - as a member in particular in the body - of Christ (Christ-like, no?)
Even when one operates outside of love, that one's operation is still not separate from his/her character. God is gracious as our character grows up into Christ, but that doesn't mean we can screw the body of Christ with impunity. I do not believe God continues to energize untrustworthy people with that which will either heal the broken hearted or destroy what's left of them - "charismatic" though their "teaching" may seem.
But what comes to mind when we use the term "Christ-like?" Compassion comes to my mind - an awareness of the sufferings of others and a decision to do whatever is put before you to do something about it.
But the decision to help others like Christ did in this way always comes with an additional price - other than the simple doing - sooner or later.
The sermon on the mount is filled with sterling examples of "Christ-like" qualities, yet it ends with something presented as significantly more challenging to the disciple of Christ, something definitive of what it means to be like Christ.
Sooner or later, all who endeavour to walk godly (like Christ) will suffer persecution. People will betray them. They will be hated - for their professed stand upon the name of their compassionate Saviour.
Christ was.
So will be his disciples - those who discipline themselves to be like Christ.
A defining quality of the character of those who determine to be Christ-like, those for whom it is enough to be like Christ, is that they don't fear the persecution of those who have forfeited their Christ-likeness for what appears to be personal gain by way of a position of authority above their master, above the Lord Jesus Christ over the inheritance of God. To attain their position they must have termed recognition of the true Lord devilish; much more must the present followers of the true Lord be termed devilish.
Christ-like people don't fear that because they know that all the deceitful cover of the imposters will be removed. They'd just as soon scream it now in the light of day because they know - in the face of the accusers - their Father knows and cares for everything than concerns them.
I'm with ya, Tom, if I'm hearing ya correctly that you can't separate the two.
Any "healing" would then not be genuine, is that correct?
"Then?" Is "then" when God is no longer giving the minister revelation about His children becaujse the minister would be untrustworthy with it(trying to give yoiu the short answer, but I have to be sure I have the short question right first)?
If that's the question, I still couldn't say that any healing would not be genuine (I can't limit God's ability to heal - there are other factors present besides the minister), but any healing wouldn't be because of any energizing of the true spirit within the minister.
Was that the short question? Was the answer short enough?
Yes, I would hate to say that God couldn't work because the minister is engaging in ungodly behavior or because the person being ministered to wasn't believing, because God can do anything He chooses to, can't He? I mean, I don't believe He is limited by formulas.
I know people who have said they weren't believing and went to a church service and got healed. Also, I don't think anyone can know the heart but God so I think it is possible to work through someone who knowingly engages in ungodly behavior. But, I wonder if He would or could continue to work in that person for any extended amount of time. I guess it could be possible, but not probable, just my opinion.
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waterbuffalo
I think it should be both because if a person is messing with someone else's wife the night before and lying to his own, yes he can lead praise and worship on Sunday morning and make a joyful noice, but for the spiritually perceptive who are there, something just won't be right. I mean, that inner voice will be telling you something but you might not be able to put your finger on it.
If this is something that goes on for a long period of time, the spiritual atmosphere of the church just wouldn't be right and I'd eventually have ta get outta there.
The way I gauge it is if it doesn't feel right, LEAVE. That's why we were given spiritual senses to tell us when something is right (godly) and when something isn't right (ungodly). We don't even have to know WHY or the specifics just THAT it's not a nurturing, and positive environment for us to be in.
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waterbuffalo
I mean, it could be the pastor is gossiping about the flock and not adultery. My point is that when the leaders of the church are engaging in activity that is ungodly and they don't think it's wrong, the congregation will be affected and will feel confused and will wonder why they're not being inspired instead of enjoying the services.
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def59
You know worship services are not for our enjoyment. It is for the object of our worship.
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waterbuffalo
I knew someone would say that and I agree. Again, that is just an example of someone leading in the church who can't be making very godly decisions if he is engaging in that kind of activity.
Suppose its the pastor who slanders the flock on a regular basis but who can preach REALLY well. Don't you think Christian character affects everything we do? I mean, there are certain things that one does to disqualify them from being a true servant and if so, their church, as a result is going to dwindle, don't you think?
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smurfette
I like that article. We have already experienced some of this in twit world. So called great teachings and whatever while leader.... were doing so many awful things. Look at what hurt and destruction it brought. TWI might be a different organization today if they had truly focused on trying to be Christ- Like and not gotten into the "look at me and what I can do" mindset.
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mj412
wouldnt that be works?
I mean it says we are saved by grace and if we begin comparing who is righteous and who is not by how we live wouldnt that be working our way to being saved by our deeds done or not done?
I do think it is ego , but I think it is how Gods will is.
that is why I read to keep our eyes on Jesus as the Saviour not on men. or what they can do.
and yes it did happen in the way.
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dmiller
True. The seminaries spend time teaching the book knowledge, cuz they can. I wonder if it is possible for them to teach a student how to be Christlike?? Wouldn't that be more a matter of one's own heart, and personal committment?
I think this says it pretty well. We may have gifts/callings (whatever) and they should be used to further the cause of Christ, as we are being more Christlike.
:)-->
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dmiller
That's a good question!! My thinking is that the very gifted (in whatever their calling or talent is), get the same temptations we do. And since they are more high profile, they get it more than the rest of us, making it easier to succumb.
I don't see how they could justify doing wrong, and still maintain their *office* with a clear conscience though. Especially if they are in ministry work, like a few folks we know from the past.
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dmiller
(bold is mine)
MJ -- yea -- I think so. Especially *if we begin comparing*, like you said.
But I think that looking at how a person lives their life (ie -- do they practice what they preach) is neither judgemental, nor is it relegating their salvation to the works they do or don't do.. I think it is just being honest and holding them accountable to themselves, and the people they are in charge of -- be it a youth group, a worship team, an entire church, a radio ministry, any of that stuff.
And if the accountability that they are held to is biblically based, then we are not forcing them to *work* for their salvation.
:)-->
David
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waterbuffalo
Temptation is certainly there for all. My point is more if the person makes a lifestyle choice to remain in a specific sin involving other people in their church, then, their character will affect their ministry in a negative way.
As someone in the congregation or leadership team, it could be even as subtle as, "Gee, couldn't put my finger on it, but something just isn't right here."
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TheInvisibleDan
I would think becoming (or seeking to become) "Christ-like" would be an immense "gift" in and of itself - and that perhaps all that other stuff (healing abilities, etc.) might naturally follow, and if so -would be authentic at that..."Though I speak in the tongues of men or angels, but have not love, I am nothing".
Otherwise, we may just as well be mere sorcerers or magicians, rather than "Christians", if outward exhibitions of razzle-dazzle "power" is the expectation or assumed validation.
How do we become more "Christ-like"?
I think feeding on His sayings in the Gospels might be a great place to start...treat others with love and compassion and great patience, as He would have us do...put off the "old god" (with all his anger, wrath, judgment, condemnation and jealousy) - essentially the "old man" which is created in this god's image - and put on the new God, Who is Love.
Such is my take on this, for what it's worth.
Danny
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waterbuffalo
Well spoken, Dan, and I totally agree.
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Ham
I wonder if God feels like "tossing His cookies" when He hears people like that speaking his word.. it does that to me.
Seems more often than not, people in that category are operating a scam, not a "gift". May look religious, bring tears to some folks eyes, but so can cutting an onion.
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Ham
Case in point. MAYBE he had a ministry, MAYBE he did some good for some at one time, BUT-
Where were the miracles validating VP's "ministry"? And yes, he claimed to have a healing ministry, or "gift" if you will.
But I NEVER saw one. Not once. I heard a lot of claims though. And this self-appointed spokesman for the lord claimed he had knowledge like it had not been known since the first century. Ptooie. Just another scam, at least at one point.
Behavior seems to validate or invalidate any calling.
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Ham
I partly agree, but I don't think he inspires them in a godly manner.
I have heard some "sermons" that should have shaken the world to its foundations, at least for me. But I found myself sitting back wondering how somewhere I was "missing it".
Perhaps that is why loy and crowd had to scream at the top of their lungs. What they said no longer had any valid effect.
Maybe the "gift" was still there, but no power, no love. No "sound mind" either.
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Ham
One more thing..
I think this assumes far too much, he does not speak for me.
What I observed was men to turn from callings and gifts to fear and manipulation.
They still think they know how to sell the product. They just don't have the product anymore.
Even preaching from the same bible.
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dmiller
WB --- In a word -- yes -- good point, and duely noted!
;)-->
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dmiller
I agree. Getting back to words of Christ in the Gospels, is fundamental.
:)-->
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Tom
"The preacher" said that it is more important to be Christ-like than to operate one's gifts and callings because one may operate gifts and callings aside from one's character whereas being Christ-like involves the character of a person - or words to that effect.
I don't believe that is true. I believe everyone's gift is uniquely matched to that one's total identity. Body, soul, and spirit operate as one within an individual. One can no more operate gifts and callings without regard to character than without a soul or a body.
God energizes the spirit within an individual in the light of who that one is - differently than He does within another - as a member in particular in the body - of Christ (Christ-like, no?)
Even when one operates outside of love, that one's operation is still not separate from his/her character. God is gracious as our character grows up into Christ, but that doesn't mean we can screw the body of Christ with impunity. I do not believe God continues to energize untrustworthy people with that which will either heal the broken hearted or destroy what's left of them - "charismatic" though their "teaching" may seem.
But what comes to mind when we use the term "Christ-like?" Compassion comes to my mind - an awareness of the sufferings of others and a decision to do whatever is put before you to do something about it.
But the decision to help others like Christ did in this way always comes with an additional price - other than the simple doing - sooner or later.
The sermon on the mount is filled with sterling examples of "Christ-like" qualities, yet it ends with something presented as significantly more challenging to the disciple of Christ, something definitive of what it means to be like Christ.
Sooner or later, all who endeavour to walk godly (like Christ) will suffer persecution. People will betray them. They will be hated - for their professed stand upon the name of their compassionate Saviour.
Christ was.
So will be his disciples - those who discipline themselves to be like Christ.
A defining quality of the character of those who determine to be Christ-like, those for whom it is enough to be like Christ, is that they don't fear the persecution of those who have forfeited their Christ-likeness for what appears to be personal gain by way of a position of authority above their master, above the Lord Jesus Christ over the inheritance of God. To attain their position they must have termed recognition of the true Lord devilish; much more must the present followers of the true Lord be termed devilish.
Christ-like people don't fear that because they know that all the deceitful cover of the imposters will be removed. They'd just as soon scream it now in the light of day because they know - in the face of the accusers - their Father knows and cares for everything than concerns them.
The Christ you serve is your reward.
Tom
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waterbuffalo
I'm with ya, Tom, if I'm hearing ya correctly that you can't separate the two.
Any "healing" would then not be genuine, is that correct?
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waterbuffalo
I'm still not sure what is the short answer on this one, if there is one.
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Tom
"Then?" Is "then" when God is no longer giving the minister revelation about His children becaujse the minister would be untrustworthy with it(trying to give yoiu the short answer, but I have to be sure I have the short question right first)?
If that's the question, I still couldn't say that any healing would not be genuine (I can't limit God's ability to heal - there are other factors present besides the minister), but any healing wouldn't be because of any energizing of the true spirit within the minister.
Was that the short question? Was the answer short enough?
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waterbuffalo
Yes, I would hate to say that God couldn't work because the minister is engaging in ungodly behavior or because the person being ministered to wasn't believing, because God can do anything He chooses to, can't He? I mean, I don't believe He is limited by formulas.
I know people who have said they weren't believing and went to a church service and got healed. Also, I don't think anyone can know the heart but God so I think it is possible to work through someone who knowingly engages in ungodly behavior. But, I wonder if He would or could continue to work in that person for any extended amount of time. I guess it could be possible, but not probable, just my opinion.
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