Well, there's seems to be an adequate supply of posters on the female side of the topic.
I might add though, that there are a few husbands out here who give there wives all the room they'd like. And don't abuse them, or demand to be waited on, and yet still provide a house (such as it is) and finances and vehicles and take them on trips and laugh with them and enjoy their company.
But if your home becomes an unhappy place for you, is your only alternative to dump your husband? Is that going to insure that your remaining life is going to be a barrel of laughs? How about voicing your concerns and - God forbid - actually doing something to remedy whatever ails you?
Yeah, we're men. And as such we're often not as thoughtful as we should be (especially after years of being together), we're not as tuned into the unspoken feelings, the background noise, or ambiance. So sue us, we're men.
Yeah, I should have said "You look really nice tonight" more often. I should have told her how much I appreciate her more often (or at all). And I could have been more supportive and less judgemental.
But I thought the point of marriage was to have that one person you could trust - come what may - the one that you could always confide in and find comfort with, despite what may be going on outside the home. If your staying in the marriage is dependant upon always being happy, and you feel free to leave whenever you feel unhappy, how in the hell can your mate ever trust you again? You're only here until the next cloud comes along? Gosh, that's heartening...
(((George)) There is always the other side of the coin, I am sorry.
No, it is not fair to you guys who try hard, only to have us up n change our minds and direction mid life.
The people in my life that I was referring to, were in very different situations all together.
I was simply relating why my aunt left after 6 children and 30 some years of mariage, my friend down the road after 20 odd yrs n so forth.....trying to relate what might be some of the contributing factors.
"Galen, your only 45 it will slow down. But as another male stated here he has learned other ways to satisfy a woman... :o-->"
Yes, maam.
I have a difficult time imagining that it will, but will take your word for it. As to 'satisfying' I really dont see that it will ever be an issue, as such.
From my experiences, female libido drop within a couple years after marriage and are fully 'satisfied' without any 'effort'. A few times we have seen where in the early stages of peri-menopause, there were a few times where the phrase 'standing-heat' was appropriate [a phrase among farmers to describe the occurance of a female sexual drive]. Probably once every six months or so, during the first five years of peri-menopause [night sweats, shivers, irregular periods, restlessness, etc], but during the second five years of peri-menopause no phases of 'standing-heat' occured.
It is our understanding from the doctors that once the final stages of menopause set in, everything will stabilize, and along with it so will libido.
" The part about the men not being into sex as much came from a thread about how non important sex was with a man when they get older. It seemed a lot of men at that time agreed with it. ... I am 52 and you couldn't prove that statement by me if I am representative of the male of the species in his 50 somethings ..."
I would have to imagine that it is not always a matter of losing interest so much as giving up.
Attentiveness, wining and dining, catering meals in bed, dating, etc; after a while perhaps ten years or maybe twenty you finally get to the point of saying "why make such an effort? If it has no effect?"
"Do you really think that it is you sex crazed women nagging us about going to the doctor to get a prescription that drives the interest in treatments for ED? I think not."
LOL
"... Can you imagine the difficulty you would have in getting us to go to the doctor (usually another man but even worse if the doc is a woman) and admit that our johnny doesn't always jump up in order to get a permission slip to get the magic elixir of youth?"
LOL
It seems to me that the best and strongest 'elixir' on earth is a willing female [by willing I do mean one that is sober and still willing].
Geo, there are lots of men who are wonderful! The few complaints I've read on this thread aren't about the ones who try and the ones who care. I've voiced my opinion here and I'm divorced, but I didn't make that decision lightly, nor without a lot of thought beforehand and I gave it a long time to be right, but nothing I did worked. I'm sorry if anything I said angered you, I would never want to do that especially to someone going through the beginnings of a divorce.
I find most women, I'm generalizing here, are willing to wait out the problems, just like men. They are appreciative of what their husband's do and sometimes they too don't utter the words that should be said, taking for granted that their husbands know.
"Agreed Vickles, we are in a new era where there is no shame to divorce. We are no longer required to stay in a bad marriage and just keep a *stiff upper lip*."
I agree that there does not seem to be any 'shame' to divorce today, however there is still a rather large economic stigma. I have counseled and advised dozens of men coming out of divorce over the years. [they were sent to me when they recieved the legal paperwork and court decree]. Often times the 'process' of the divorce ruins a guy's credit rating, maxes out his credit limit, empties the bank, and attaches large portions of a guy's salary. As late as 2001, I have seen alimony decrees set at levels higher than the gross monthly income of men. [well okay, I helped one guy in 2001, but dozens in the years preceding that].
It is fine with me, if a female decides that she wants to walk away from a marriage. But my goodness, do it politely. To steal everything that a man owns, and take his career from him, often leaving him living on the street, is just very mean.
While I understand that commonly males file for divorce, I just have never seen it happen, and as such I have always seen the demoralizing effects that divorce have on servicemen.
Better yet, tell your husband to his face. Getting it all in the mail, like so many are done, is really mean.
There's a general difference between men and women, in my opinion, that only gets wider as we get older.
Women expect men to be able to pick up all the non-verbal cues, and figure out that there is a problem without being told. "If you can't see it yourself, then I'm not going to tell you" is a familiar refrain.
Men expect women to be able to outline for us exactly what the problem is, in detail. If you don't mention it, then it's not a problem. If you do tell us, and we take action that we think fixes the problem, if you don't tell us, we think it's fixed.
That's part of the reason that it sometimes all hits the fan in the 50's. The woman is tired of dropping hints, and thinks her husband is an insensitive clod for not picking it all up, and the man is mystified that there is any problem at all because his wife hasn't sat him down and explained it all.
"Women expect men to be able to pick up all the non-verbal cues, and figure out that there is a problem without being told. "If you can't see it yourself, then I'm not going to tell you" is a familiar refrain. ... Men expect women to be able to outline for us exactly what the problem is, in detail. If you don't mention it, then it's not a problem. If you do tell us, and we take action that we think fixes the problem, if you don't tell us, we think it's fixed."
LOL
Very true.
I was very fortunate, early in our marriage, my wonderful wife realized that if she wanted to communicate something to me, that she needed to say it verbally.
It has helped to clear up any mis-understandings in what each of us expects from the other.
That's part of the reason that it sometimes all hits the fan in the 50's. The woman is tired of dropping hints, and thinks her husband is an insensitive clod for not picking it all up, and the man is mystified that there is any problem at all because his wife hasn't sat him down and explained it all.
DAMN OAK!!!
That is BRILLIANT.
I am NOT married, and I am only 48 (????) but this entire thread rings really loudly for me. I personally believe that each and every living human has the God given right to follow the pursuit of happiness....male, female, married or single.
Decisions we made in our 20s may no longer make as much sense to us (can anyone one here say WAY CORPS COMMITTMENT????) We have each and all.....grown as our lives have progressed.
Why do women in their 50s divorce? Vickles....my guess is for the same reasons every other woman or man divorce. They are in a situation they do not want to be in......and realize that regardless of social stigma...they personally need to BE HAPPY.
There comes a point in the life of every person that they must evaluate, or reevaluate their lives. Measure themselves up against the goals they had when they were graduating from High school or college......or the way corps.
These are deeply soul searching days....not easy, but necessary.
I have grown alot in the past few years.....for me as a woman....I prefer the people I know to be kind, NOT RIGHT in their own eyes.
There's a general difference between men and women, in my opinion, that only gets wider as we get older.
Women expect men to be able to pick up all the non-verbal cues, and figure out that there is a problem without being told. "If you can't see it yourself, then I'm not going to tell you" is a familiar refrain.
Men expect women to be able to outline for us exactly what the problem is, in detail. If you don't mention it, then it's not a problem. If you do tell us, and we take action that we think fixes the problem, if you don't tell us, we think it's fixed.
That's part of the reason that it sometimes all hits the fan in the 50's. The woman is tired of dropping hints, and thinks her husband is an insensitive clod for not picking it all up, and the man is mystified that there is any problem at all because his wife hasn't sat him down and explained it all.
But I thought the point of marriage was to have that one person you could trust - come what may - the one that you could always confide in and find comfort with, despite what may be going on outside the home. If your staying in the marriage is dependant upon always being happy, and you feel free to leave whenever you feel unhappy, how in the hell can your mate ever trust you again? You're only here until the next cloud comes along? Gosh, that's heartening...
Geo,
When I consider my parents marriage, and that of my in-laws, which both lasted (and are lasting) over 50 years, it's quite a mind-boggling contrast to the fleeting duration of marriages today.
It would be reckless for me to over-generalize the reasons why, but I can't shake the one impression, that our country has become such a self-absorbed, consumer-driven, wasteful and mindless "throw-it-away" society, to the point where even marriage just as well be regarded akin to acquiring or discarding a product...
Not "happy"? something's not "perfect"? take this new fangled pill. Buy a new car. Get a new house. Get a sex-change operation. Dump the old spouse...and there are plenty of talking heads and so-called "experts" to validate every and any concievable whim.
We've become a country of consumer-cattle, being prodded along on borrowed credit.
Wow, Oak, you explained it so well from men's point of view as well as the women's. I know I've gotten pretty mad when I've given all the signals and the poor guy just don't get it.
Now how come I just don't tell him?
Communication is the biggest key to keeping a healthy relationship. I still think its also part of the bedroom thing.
Sorry guys, many of you ARE wonderfull, maybe it is a mid life thing.....but I just know that I woke up one day to discover to my dismay, that I was designated *drudge* for eight other able bodied people.
I don`t LIKE cooking , cleaning, laundry etc...for myself alone much less a bunch of mess makers...and was deeply disturbed to realize that it was my role for the next 20 years.........lol.
Thank goodness they all finally started helping and lightened the load somewhat...I don`t even worry about the house any more....if they want it done, or anything outta me, they damn well better pick a job or room and get started....lol....
Poor spouse, as a neat freak, former *everything in it`s place and decent and order or we will surely get posessed* type of corpes guy....has had to make some major adjustments....lol. but I know women who don`t recieve any help, and just get tired of it.
It truly is a lot more *fun* to have a job, get out and interact with people, have the respect and encouragement of your peers for a job well done.
The best you are likely to get at home is..(and I speak from experience) *it`s about damned time*
Most of the time you spend your day cleaning up messes OTHER peopel make, only to have them come home and wordlessly devour the dinner you spent a couple of hours on, without thanks, many times people complaining because it isn`t their favorite, only to have them retire and sit on their fannies watching tv while you are in the kitchen on the other side of the house alone for another hour doing dishes....
You rarely get any thanks, no apreciation for the clean clothes on their backs....etc.
You never get any raises or promotions, just bu tt chewings for going over budget....etc.
It is a bleak existance, but you stick to it day after day, and when you get the final child raised and out of the house....it is now permissable in this day and time to decide that after 20 years of being cook, maid, dishwasher and laundress.....that you are ready to hang up your apron.
There is something enormously fulfilling about making money, being deemed a sucess, having people treat you with dignity and respect....to be simply be apreciated and acknowledged for a job well done....sigh
It is very exciting to explore new avenues of education, and after a life time of hard work....
Some mates can accept that and be supportive, some feel threatened and try to discourage these persuits.
I am not saying that we are right, I am not saying that you guys deserve this in any way whatsoever.... I am not advocating whether to divorce or stay...whether it is right or wrong.....I am simply presenting some of the contributing factors to the mindset of myself and some of my friends in this age range and why divorce at 50 would be viewed as attractive.
Going back to what Oak said about communication differences for men and women I have another comment.
Sometimes if something isn't an issue for the man, than what the woman says or hints around about literally bounces off the man. Soooo...you have to be clear, you have to detail the relevance and importance of what point needs to be made about the particluar challenge and most importantly: Picking and priortizing what's bugging you or how your needs are not being met is important.
You also have to say it more than once in many cases. You have to look for clues if the other person got the message. I can tell when something is being bounced or set aside most of the time when I'm talking to somebody.
I work full time 3/4 of the year, but in summer I drop to part time. A couple of years ago I noticed that my part time days were leaving no time at all for me--the more I was home, the more my family got lazy! Even hubby was doing yuck stuff that I had to clean up.
So I got tough. Clothes not in the laundry? So sorry, guess you have no clean socks, honey. Living room messy? Sorry, kids, no tv/computer time for you, because you trashed the living room. Bedroom is chaos? Oops, too bad about that sleep over/pool party/ movie night, you're grounded.
For a week we had salad from a bag and fix your own sandwiches for dinner.
Four people in my house are larger and stronger than I am-- I don't think I need to be the one hauling all the trash!
My mother always had a tidy house, but she was never the servant. We hopped to it as kids. I decided to be more like my mom.
Now I have an absorbing hobby that I hope to make into a home based business one day. I find if I state my goals and post them(I need to have thus and such finished by this date) my husband and kids are quite supportive.
You have to be demanding and firm. Plus, you're teaching your daughters not to be doormats, and your sons not to expect a doormat.
I hear ya Bramble, now that they are older, my kids and spouse are very helpful now.
I no longer feel responsible for the entire house....they want company, sleep overs, to go to sleep overs...a trip to town to get their co2 cartridges filled?.....well it IS my time and gas involved....
My guys typically say, *Mom...what do you need to have done for this to happen* be it a ride to town, a friends over, etc.
They work hard and earn their own money, they are great kids, and the spouse is great about watching me now, trying to slow me down before I burn out, sending me out for fun, when he see`s things getting to me....
Once in a while the frustration raises to the point of tears and dish slamming....lol, we have learned to try to take care of each other BEFORE it gets to that point.
I think that we are learning to take care of each other....I know that it is now a two way street.....that I am not responsible for everyone elses well being....and yes, yes I did indeed have to become very specific reikilady.
It truly is a lot more *fun* to have a job, get out and interact with people, have the respect and encouragement of your peers for a job well done.
I surely understand how you feel, Rascal, being a mom and having been married, but I really had to laugh when I read this, because you're wishing you could work full-time, and I'm wishing I could be home doing laundry and catching up on the cleaning and actually cooking instead of throwing something in the microwave.
Honestly, I don't find it all that fun to get up at 6 am every day, find something presentable to wear, and drive 45 minutes to work in rush hour.
Once there, I "get to" interact with doctors who are so stupid at following instructions in submitting their manuscripts and photos for publication that it truly astounds me that they're allowed to use sharp instruments.
I "get to" interact with a boss who has an Ivy League diploma but who can't organize two pencils, a few control freaks, and a Prez/CEO who's a dear but has no clue what it takes for our staff to get things done and just cooks up more projects with impossible deadlines. And then I get to fight the traffic again to get home. I "get to" interact with the people I supervise, and they're truly great people, but somedays it's like being a babysitter.
Some days I get respect, but most days I bust my butt way beyond my "job description" and all I get is a headache and a couple more projects with unreasonable deadlines.
Now, it sounds like I should get a new job. Au contraire. I have a good job, and I do know I'm appreciated, even though it doesn't seem so in the day-to-day grind. I have good benefits and most of the people I work with are great. So for all the negatives I just rattled off, there are more positives, or I'd bail in a heartbeat.
I think there's a parallel with marriages. For all the wet towels on the floor and piled-up trash and such, there are many benefits, unless you're married to a complete a$$.
Often I've known people (both men and women) who felt "unfulfilled" or unappreciated and decided the solution was to leave their spouses. Well, truth be told, they found out the grass isn't really greener on the other side of the fence...they just couldn't see the weeds and crabgrass from where they were viewing it. :)-->
It isn't a perfect world, and there are advantages and disadvantages both to being married and being single. As long as you're dealing with people--whether in a family or in a job--you're going to be dealing with their less appealing attributes.
Sometimes I like being single. No one tells me what to do, and I can come and go as I please and pursue any hobby or interest I like. But I'm so busy working I have little time for the fun stuff.
I sometimes miss being married, even though it's been a lot of years since I was. There's a sense of safety and familiarity and comfort (in between being annoyed with each other--LOL) that can't be found outside a marriage (or even a long-term committed relationship that functions like one).
my mom never got this idea, supplement or an additional wage is one thing. supporting the family is different.
compromise is involved, do ya stay home with a sick kid today or lose your job? yes it does come down to that for single parents. My daughters biggest nightmare is someday she will have to be a single parent...
I understand why woman stay in unhappy relationships for the kids, but it isnt all for the kids is it? I mean the fact all that has to be done to run a household AND keep a fifty hour a week or more job happy just to pay the bills is a full plate many many can not do and few do it well. esp. if you have several children.
I do not want to work till I die either I guess a man I didnt really love or some boredom wouldnt be so bad as this competitive world of work. BUT then one of my married friends say they cant go to the pool unless they bring all the kids , or spend money cause HIS car needs to be fixed.
im content where im at. I do get jealous when I go to my married friends house and it is so tidy and decorated for the hostess with the most. I think geez did I leave two coffe cups on the couch chair last night and man that pile of winter coats really should be dry cleaned and put away instead of sitting in my spare bedroom in july.. a man would remind ya right?
I mean you all say a man needs to be told everything well as I always thought the men I get hooked up with NEVER had a problem telling me where I was slacked or in need of improvement.
I know the cats bed needs a wash, I do not need a man to remind me, I raised my children to be very independent by default as a single parent. it isnt that I was unwilling sh@t I just didnt have time or energy to get it all done. today they do not look for another to fullfill what they can and should do their own self.
MY role was not one of rescuing , I educated. and let me tell ya the world for the most part doesnt agree with what I taught my kids. God almighty alone can and will take care of you.
Im only human and a very tired one at that. I have male friends single and the world has NO problem how they live spending the pay where they want.. doing for those when they chose, but switch that to a single woman living the same.. and here they come in to say it cant or shouldnt never be done.
I do it. but I deal with the cinderella dream from both sexes every single day as well. MY sons have the most difficult time they really want me to "find a man", for what ? I say.
because it isnt normal mom. and being in an unhappy or compromising relationship is? men do rule the world, I just do not get this theory about men having to be "told" how to live.
It really sounds disrespectful to me.
men know how to live, they know how to make money, they know how to love their children. It is woman who tend to squash their ability to do so by being controlling and having to be the ones to "run the roost", or eles. And then bitch about it years later when it all comes to a bottom line of how they dictated their own life and that of the family. everyone has their own life to live.
the ones who damage equal rights the most is co-dependent and dependent women, who will not allow a man equality in the family.
trust me if the baby screams in the night long enough he will get up and give it a bottle. If your gone on a trip for a week or so without the kids, they will get to school, be dressed and the etc. the world isnt going to end cause you decide to take your own life at hand.. YET woman like the role of dictator and control. to be able to tell a man and the children what and how to do it.
what is the sense of complaining about it years later, when they can still want it from you? what have you taught them about life?
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shazdancer
Amen, rascal. If only WE worked harder....
I think many of the women are reaching the age where they are looking back at their lives, and realizing that the remaining time is short.
Regards,
Shaz
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George Aar
Well, there's seems to be an adequate supply of posters on the female side of the topic.
I might add though, that there are a few husbands out here who give there wives all the room they'd like. And don't abuse them, or demand to be waited on, and yet still provide a house (such as it is) and finances and vehicles and take them on trips and laugh with them and enjoy their company.
But if your home becomes an unhappy place for you, is your only alternative to dump your husband? Is that going to insure that your remaining life is going to be a barrel of laughs? How about voicing your concerns and - God forbid - actually doing something to remedy whatever ails you?
Yeah, we're men. And as such we're often not as thoughtful as we should be (especially after years of being together), we're not as tuned into the unspoken feelings, the background noise, or ambiance. So sue us, we're men.
Yeah, I should have said "You look really nice tonight" more often. I should have told her how much I appreciate her more often (or at all). And I could have been more supportive and less judgemental.
But I thought the point of marriage was to have that one person you could trust - come what may - the one that you could always confide in and find comfort with, despite what may be going on outside the home. If your staying in the marriage is dependant upon always being happy, and you feel free to leave whenever you feel unhappy, how in the hell can your mate ever trust you again? You're only here until the next cloud comes along? Gosh, that's heartening...
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rascal
(((George)) There is always the other side of the coin, I am sorry.
No, it is not fair to you guys who try hard, only to have us up n change our minds and direction mid life.
The people in my life that I was referring to, were in very different situations all together.
I was simply relating why my aunt left after 6 children and 30 some years of mariage, my friend down the road after 20 odd yrs n so forth.....trying to relate what might be some of the contributing factors.
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mj412
that is why I do not seek to get married.
it is a vow to one another and to God almighty.
I should think it is serious, come what may.
I know Im to selfish and unwilling to take the changes people may go through .
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Galen
vickles:
"Galen, your only 45 it will slow down. But as another male stated here he has learned other ways to satisfy a woman...
:o-->"
Yes, maam.
I have a difficult time imagining that it will, but will take your word for it. As to 'satisfying' I really dont see that it will ever be an issue, as such.
From my experiences, female libido drop within a couple years after marriage and are fully 'satisfied' without any 'effort'. A few times we have seen where in the early stages of peri-menopause, there were a few times where the phrase 'standing-heat' was appropriate [a phrase among farmers to describe the occurance of a female sexual drive]. Probably once every six months or so, during the first five years of peri-menopause [night sweats, shivers, irregular periods, restlessness, etc], but during the second five years of peri-menopause no phases of 'standing-heat' occured.
It is our understanding from the doctors that once the final stages of menopause set in, everything will stabilize, and along with it so will libido.
:-)
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Galen
oenophile:
" The part about the men not being into sex as much came from a thread about how non important sex was with a man when they get older. It seemed a lot of men at that time agreed with it. ... I am 52 and you couldn't prove that statement by me if I am representative of the male of the species in his 50 somethings ..."
I would have to imagine that it is not always a matter of losing interest so much as giving up.
Attentiveness, wining and dining, catering meals in bed, dating, etc; after a while perhaps ten years or maybe twenty you finally get to the point of saying "why make such an effort? If it has no effect?"
"Do you really think that it is you sex crazed women nagging us about going to the doctor to get a prescription that drives the interest in treatments for ED? I think not."
LOL
"... Can you imagine the difficulty you would have in getting us to go to the doctor (usually another man but even worse if the doc is a woman) and admit that our johnny doesn't always jump up in order to get a permission slip to get the magic elixir of youth?"
LOL
It seems to me that the best and strongest 'elixir' on earth is a willing female [by willing I do mean one that is sober and still willing].
:-)
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Galen
vickles:
"Oen, what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter if the johnny does always jump or not. Thats when the fingers do the walking...
:o--> :angel"
Fingers will only walk into a mine-field a limited number of times, the limit getting even lower as the decades grow.
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gc
Geo, there are lots of men who are wonderful! The few complaints I've read on this thread aren't about the ones who try and the ones who care. I've voiced my opinion here and I'm divorced, but I didn't make that decision lightly, nor without a lot of thought beforehand and I gave it a long time to be right, but nothing I did worked. I'm sorry if anything I said angered you, I would never want to do that especially to someone going through the beginnings of a divorce.
I find most women, I'm generalizing here, are willing to wait out the problems, just like men. They are appreciative of what their husband's do and sometimes they too don't utter the words that should be said, taking for granted that their husbands know.
gc
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Galen
rascal:
"Agreed Vickles, we are in a new era where there is no shame to divorce. We are no longer required to stay in a bad marriage and just keep a *stiff upper lip*."
I agree that there does not seem to be any 'shame' to divorce today, however there is still a rather large economic stigma. I have counseled and advised dozens of men coming out of divorce over the years. [they were sent to me when they recieved the legal paperwork and court decree]. Often times the 'process' of the divorce ruins a guy's credit rating, maxes out his credit limit, empties the bank, and attaches large portions of a guy's salary. As late as 2001, I have seen alimony decrees set at levels higher than the gross monthly income of men. [well okay, I helped one guy in 2001, but dozens in the years preceding that].
It is fine with me, if a female decides that she wants to walk away from a marriage. But my goodness, do it politely. To steal everything that a man owns, and take his career from him, often leaving him living on the street, is just very mean.
While I understand that commonly males file for divorce, I just have never seen it happen, and as such I have always seen the demoralizing effects that divorce have on servicemen.
Better yet, tell your husband to his face. Getting it all in the mail, like so many are done, is really mean.
:-)
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Oakspear
There's a general difference between men and women, in my opinion, that only gets wider as we get older.
Women expect men to be able to pick up all the non-verbal cues, and figure out that there is a problem without being told. "If you can't see it yourself, then I'm not going to tell you" is a familiar refrain.
Men expect women to be able to outline for us exactly what the problem is, in detail. If you don't mention it, then it's not a problem. If you do tell us, and we take action that we think fixes the problem, if you don't tell us, we think it's fixed.
That's part of the reason that it sometimes all hits the fan in the 50's. The woman is tired of dropping hints, and thinks her husband is an insensitive clod for not picking it all up, and the man is mystified that there is any problem at all because his wife hasn't sat him down and explained it all.
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Galen
Oakspear:
"Women expect men to be able to pick up all the non-verbal cues, and figure out that there is a problem without being told. "If you can't see it yourself, then I'm not going to tell you" is a familiar refrain. ... Men expect women to be able to outline for us exactly what the problem is, in detail. If you don't mention it, then it's not a problem. If you do tell us, and we take action that we think fixes the problem, if you don't tell us, we think it's fixed."
LOL
Very true.
I was very fortunate, early in our marriage, my wonderful wife realized that if she wanted to communicate something to me, that she needed to say it verbally.
It has helped to clear up any mis-understandings in what each of us expects from the other.
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Radar OReilly
DAMN OAK!!!
That is BRILLIANT.
I am NOT married, and I am only 48 (????) but this entire thread rings really loudly for me. I personally believe that each and every living human has the God given right to follow the pursuit of happiness....male, female, married or single.
Decisions we made in our 20s may no longer make as much sense to us (can anyone one here say WAY CORPS COMMITTMENT????) We have each and all.....grown as our lives have progressed.
Why do women in their 50s divorce? Vickles....my guess is for the same reasons every other woman or man divorce. They are in a situation they do not want to be in......and realize that regardless of social stigma...they personally need to BE HAPPY.
There comes a point in the life of every person that they must evaluate, or reevaluate their lives. Measure themselves up against the goals they had when they were graduating from High school or college......or the way corps.
These are deeply soul searching days....not easy, but necessary.
I have grown alot in the past few years.....for me as a woman....I prefer the people I know to be kind, NOT RIGHT in their own eyes.
ROR
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dmiller
BINGOOOOO!!!!
David
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TheInvisibleDan
Geo,
When I consider my parents marriage, and that of my in-laws, which both lasted (and are lasting) over 50 years, it's quite a mind-boggling contrast to the fleeting duration of marriages today.
It would be reckless for me to over-generalize the reasons why, but I can't shake the one impression, that our country has become such a self-absorbed, consumer-driven, wasteful and mindless "throw-it-away" society, to the point where even marriage just as well be regarded akin to acquiring or discarding a product...
Not "happy"? something's not "perfect"? take this new fangled pill. Buy a new car. Get a new house. Get a sex-change operation. Dump the old spouse...and there are plenty of talking heads and so-called "experts" to validate every and any concievable whim.
We've become a country of consumer-cattle, being prodded along on borrowed credit.
One can sell us anything. We'll buy it.
Danny
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vickles
Wow, Oak, you explained it so well from men's point of view as well as the women's. I know I've gotten pretty mad when I've given all the signals and the poor guy just don't get it.
Now how come I just don't tell him?
Communication is the biggest key to keeping a healthy relationship. I still think its also part of the bedroom thing.
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shazdancer
Nice, Oak!
Geo, I absolutely agree with what you said. I think that's what's wrong with any kind of "geographic cure" to a problem. You always take you with you.
So yeah, dumping the guy/gal doesn't always make for a happy, fulfilled life. There's got to be a lot more inventory-taking of who YOU want to be.
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
Sorry guys, many of you ARE wonderfull, maybe it is a mid life thing.....but I just know that I woke up one day to discover to my dismay, that I was designated *drudge* for eight other able bodied people.
I don`t LIKE cooking , cleaning, laundry etc...for myself alone much less a bunch of mess makers...and was deeply disturbed to realize that it was my role for the next 20 years.........lol.
Thank goodness they all finally started helping and lightened the load somewhat...I don`t even worry about the house any more....if they want it done, or anything outta me, they damn well better pick a job or room and get started....lol....
Poor spouse, as a neat freak, former *everything in it`s place and decent and order or we will surely get posessed* type of corpes guy....has had to make some major adjustments....lol. but I know women who don`t recieve any help, and just get tired of it.
It truly is a lot more *fun* to have a job, get out and interact with people, have the respect and encouragement of your peers for a job well done.
The best you are likely to get at home is..(and I speak from experience) *it`s about damned time*
Most of the time you spend your day cleaning up messes OTHER peopel make, only to have them come home and wordlessly devour the dinner you spent a couple of hours on, without thanks, many times people complaining because it isn`t their favorite, only to have them retire and sit on their fannies watching tv while you are in the kitchen on the other side of the house alone for another hour doing dishes....
You rarely get any thanks, no apreciation for the clean clothes on their backs....etc.
You never get any raises or promotions, just bu tt chewings for going over budget....etc.
It is a bleak existance, but you stick to it day after day, and when you get the final child raised and out of the house....it is now permissable in this day and time to decide that after 20 years of being cook, maid, dishwasher and laundress.....that you are ready to hang up your apron.
There is something enormously fulfilling about making money, being deemed a sucess, having people treat you with dignity and respect....to be simply be apreciated and acknowledged for a job well done....sigh
It is very exciting to explore new avenues of education, and after a life time of hard work....
Some mates can accept that and be supportive, some feel threatened and try to discourage these persuits.
I am not saying that we are right, I am not saying that you guys deserve this in any way whatsoever.... I am not advocating whether to divorce or stay...whether it is right or wrong.....I am simply presenting some of the contributing factors to the mindset of myself and some of my friends in this age range and why divorce at 50 would be viewed as attractive.
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reikilady
Going back to what Oak said about communication differences for men and women I have another comment.
Sometimes if something isn't an issue for the man, than what the woman says or hints around about literally bounces off the man. Soooo...you have to be clear, you have to detail the relevance and importance of what point needs to be made about the particluar challenge and most importantly: Picking and priortizing what's bugging you or how your needs are not being met is important.
You also have to say it more than once in many cases. You have to look for clues if the other person got the message. I can tell when something is being bounced or set aside most of the time when I'm talking to somebody.
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Bramble
Rascal--I hear you!
I work full time 3/4 of the year, but in summer I drop to part time. A couple of years ago I noticed that my part time days were leaving no time at all for me--the more I was home, the more my family got lazy! Even hubby was doing yuck stuff that I had to clean up.
So I got tough. Clothes not in the laundry? So sorry, guess you have no clean socks, honey. Living room messy? Sorry, kids, no tv/computer time for you, because you trashed the living room. Bedroom is chaos? Oops, too bad about that sleep over/pool party/ movie night, you're grounded.
For a week we had salad from a bag and fix your own sandwiches for dinner.
Four people in my house are larger and stronger than I am-- I don't think I need to be the one hauling all the trash!
My mother always had a tidy house, but she was never the servant. We hopped to it as kids. I decided to be more like my mom.
Now I have an absorbing hobby that I hope to make into a home based business one day. I find if I state my goals and post them(I need to have thus and such finished by this date) my husband and kids are quite supportive.
You have to be demanding and firm. Plus, you're teaching your daughters not to be doormats, and your sons not to expect a doormat.
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rascal
I hear ya Bramble, now that they are older, my kids and spouse are very helpful now.
I no longer feel responsible for the entire house....they want company, sleep overs, to go to sleep overs...a trip to town to get their co2 cartridges filled?.....well it IS my time and gas involved....
My guys typically say, *Mom...what do you need to have done for this to happen* be it a ride to town, a friends over, etc.
They work hard and earn their own money, they are great kids, and the spouse is great about watching me now, trying to slow me down before I burn out, sending me out for fun, when he see`s things getting to me....
Once in a while the frustration raises to the point of tears and dish slamming....lol, we have learned to try to take care of each other BEFORE it gets to that point.
I think that we are learning to take care of each other....I know that it is now a two way street.....that I am not responsible for everyone elses well being....and yes, yes I did indeed have to become very specific reikilady.
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Linda Z
Rascal said:
I surely understand how you feel, Rascal, being a mom and having been married, but I really had to laugh when I read this, because you're wishing you could work full-time, and I'm wishing I could be home doing laundry and catching up on the cleaning and actually cooking instead of throwing something in the microwave.
Honestly, I don't find it all that fun to get up at 6 am every day, find something presentable to wear, and drive 45 minutes to work in rush hour.
Once there, I "get to" interact with doctors who are so stupid at following instructions in submitting their manuscripts and photos for publication that it truly astounds me that they're allowed to use sharp instruments.
I "get to" interact with a boss who has an Ivy League diploma but who can't organize two pencils, a few control freaks, and a Prez/CEO who's a dear but has no clue what it takes for our staff to get things done and just cooks up more projects with impossible deadlines. And then I get to fight the traffic again to get home.
I "get to" interact with the people I supervise, and they're truly great people, but somedays it's like being a babysitter.
Some days I get respect, but most days I bust my butt way beyond my "job description" and all I get is a headache and a couple more projects with unreasonable deadlines.
Now, it sounds like I should get a new job. Au contraire. I have a good job, and I do know I'm appreciated, even though it doesn't seem so in the day-to-day grind. I have good benefits and most of the people I work with are great. So for all the negatives I just rattled off, there are more positives, or I'd bail in a heartbeat.
I think there's a parallel with marriages. For all the wet towels on the floor and piled-up trash and such, there are many benefits, unless you're married to a complete a$$.
Often I've known people (both men and women) who felt "unfulfilled" or unappreciated and decided the solution was to leave their spouses. Well, truth be told, they found out the grass isn't really greener on the other side of the fence...they just couldn't see the weeds and crabgrass from where they were viewing it.
:)-->
It isn't a perfect world, and there are advantages and disadvantages both to being married and being single. As long as you're dealing with people--whether in a family or in a job--you're going to be dealing with their less appealing attributes.
Sometimes I like being single. No one tells me what to do, and I can come and go as I please and pursue any hobby or interest I like. But I'm so busy working I have little time for the fun stuff.
I sometimes miss being married, even though it's been a lot of years since I was. There's a sense of safety and familiarity and comfort (in between being annoyed with each other--LOL) that can't be found outside a marriage (or even a long-term committed relationship that functions like one).
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Linda Z
I think this is a fantastic song by Carly Simon about the boredom and restlessness that can set in after many years of marriage.
The Stuff That Dreams Are Made Of
Take a look around now
Change the direction
Adjust the tuning
Try a new translation
Don’t look at your man in the same old way
Take a new picture
Just because you don’t see shooting stars
Doesn’t mean it isn’t perfect
Can’t you see...
It’s the stuff that dreams are made of
It’s the slow and steady fire
It’s the stuff that dreams are made of
It’s your heart and soul’s desire
It’s the stuff that dreams are made of
So what’s this about your best friend?
She’s got a brand new shiny boy
And they’re moving out to malibu
To play with all his pretty toys
And you feel closed in by the same four walls
The same old conversation
With the same old guy you’ve know for years
But use your imagination
And you will see....
It’s the stuff that dreams are made of
It’s the slow and steady fire
It’s the stuff that dreams are made of
It’s your heart and soul’s desire
It’s the stuff that dreams are made of
What if the prince on the horse in your fairytale
Is right here in disguise
And what if the stars you’ve been reaching so high for
Are shining in his eyes
Don’t look at yourself in the same old way
Take another picture
Shoot the stars off in your own backyard
Don’t look any further
And you will see
It’s the stuff that dreams are made of....
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mj412
it is nice to work.
it is a different story to have to work to eat.
my mom never got this idea, supplement or an additional wage is one thing. supporting the family is different.
compromise is involved, do ya stay home with a sick kid today or lose your job? yes it does come down to that for single parents. My daughters biggest nightmare is someday she will have to be a single parent...
I understand why woman stay in unhappy relationships for the kids, but it isnt all for the kids is it? I mean the fact all that has to be done to run a household AND keep a fifty hour a week or more job happy just to pay the bills is a full plate many many can not do and few do it well. esp. if you have several children.
I do not want to work till I die either I guess a man I didnt really love or some boredom wouldnt be so bad as this competitive world of work. BUT then one of my married friends say they cant go to the pool unless they bring all the kids , or spend money cause HIS car needs to be fixed.
im content where im at. I do get jealous when I go to my married friends house and it is so tidy and decorated for the hostess with the most. I think geez did I leave two coffe cups on the couch chair last night and man that pile of winter coats really should be dry cleaned and put away instead of sitting in my spare bedroom in july.. a man would remind ya right?
I mean you all say a man needs to be told everything well as I always thought the men I get hooked up with NEVER had a problem telling me where I was slacked or in need of improvement.
I know the cats bed needs a wash, I do not need a man to remind me, I raised my children to be very independent by default as a single parent. it isnt that I was unwilling sh@t I just didnt have time or energy to get it all done. today they do not look for another to fullfill what they can and should do their own self.
MY role was not one of rescuing , I educated. and let me tell ya the world for the most part doesnt agree with what I taught my kids. God almighty alone can and will take care of you.
Im only human and a very tired one at that. I have male friends single and the world has NO problem how they live spending the pay where they want.. doing for those when they chose, but switch that to a single woman living the same.. and here they come in to say it cant or shouldnt never be done.
I do it. but I deal with the cinderella dream from both sexes every single day as well. MY sons have the most difficult time they really want me to "find a man", for what ? I say.
because it isnt normal mom. and being in an unhappy or compromising relationship is? men do rule the world, I just do not get this theory about men having to be "told" how to live.
It really sounds disrespectful to me.
men know how to live, they know how to make money, they know how to love their children. It is woman who tend to squash their ability to do so by being controlling and having to be the ones to "run the roost", or eles. And then bitch about it years later when it all comes to a bottom line of how they dictated their own life and that of the family. everyone has their own life to live.
the ones who damage equal rights the most is co-dependent and dependent women, who will not allow a man equality in the family.
trust me if the baby screams in the night long enough he will get up and give it a bottle. If your gone on a trip for a week or so without the kids, they will get to school, be dressed and the etc. the world isnt going to end cause you decide to take your own life at hand.. YET woman like the role of dictator and control. to be able to tell a man and the children what and how to do it.
what is the sense of complaining about it years later, when they can still want it from you? what have you taught them about life?
Servants get little respect. dictators even less.
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vickles
There is one thing I would like to express that I had posted earlier that I think was deleted.
If anyone is having problems with divorce or separation I hope that they would seek professional advice and get some therapy.
I know that it helped me a great deal. Friends are nice to have and they mean well. But sometimes they add fuel to the fire.
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