Honey, if you're lurking, sorry, but you know I've got some baggage and I'm doing the best I can. I've come a long way and am a lot stronger than I was even a year ago. And I do love you.
Far be it from me to act as marriage counselor, but wouldn't this be more effective face-to-face? I'm sure you guys can work this out!
As to your main point, I was too healthy and successful for leadership to bug me about stuff. Of course, I wrecked my "Green Lanternmobile" (restored '67 Chevelle) about a year after getting dumped by TWI. If any of them had heard about it, I'm sure there would have been much finger-pointing and joy that such "weakness" had been expunged from the ministry. -->
George - it's not that I'm trying to "work it out" here - but that I don't want to just make him out to be the "bad guy".... I know by now that in any marriage it takes two to fight... Since I was sharing about a recent incident, well... Sorry if it made you *uncomfortable*.
(((chaz))) I hear what you are saying.... we go through it in our marriage as well.
In our marriage, we are both ex way and need to analyse our thought processes constantly....and I hate to say it...but unlearn the *manipulative* processes we developed in twi.
If it is ANY comfort at all, many spouses feel that abandonment when the children are small...it is all part of the growing process, part of the parenting process....learning to put the children first, and not resenting it.
When they get a little older, there will be more time together,, this is spmething every family with small children face at one time or another.
Somedays I feel like my brain was run over by TWI - it's so frustrating at times because when I think I'm detecting an old pattern, like something my fist husband did, I get... well... MAD AS HELL! The casualities from TWI wasn't just the individuals, but it seems to be anyone who encounters the individuals after they've left the organization. God help us.
I hear ya, Chas!
A company where I worked got bought by a huge conglomerate and at the same time some of our biggest customers were merging and cancelling much of their business with us. I could see the writing on the wall and started bringing things home after the second round of layoffs. You'da thought I had marched into the boss's office and demanded to be fired the way my ex reacted. Sheesh!! It didn't take a genius to see that more layoffs were coming down the pike.
So then, in every fellowship, I hear teachings that "just happen" to be about believing, fear and getting what you're believing for. Little comments and questions....one more reason to stick their nose in my business.
Now that I'm "out" it's the people in church, co-workers, neighbors and friends who give pause to some of the things I say and/or do. LOL! I'm not re-married, but God help the man who's naive enough to marry me. :D-->
Just one suggestion that I might have a "problem" in an area, even if the suggestion isn't there but could be "inferred" if one were to read between the lines (read between the lines really and the inference isn't even there) I buck, arch my back and DARE you to expose any weakness I might have! Gawd I hate it when I do that! Thanks TWI for putting us always on the defensive.
Thanks TWI for putting us always on the defensive.
EXACTLY!
I always felt like I had to be super woman - all things to all men, yaddy, yaddy, yaddy - it was such a crock. Not only were we NOT allowed to have "excreatment happen" but had to be solid as a rock through it all. Not allowed to feel, think outside of the handy-dandy present truth box, or anything... Maybe this is more of what was expected of us as women or wives, but I felt like I had to act like the LC's wife all the time - and this was a woman who spoke freely and openly about how she, her husband and region coordinator considered whether or not she should have an abortion when she found out she had an *unplanned* pregnancy. SICK! She was down right cold about it - you'd have thought she was talking about getting a mole removed - not a baby!
I remember something that my lc said when we told him that I was pregnant with our first....maybe he sensed that we were a little intimidated by our impending parenthood, n he asked, well what`s the matter, isn`t it a *keeper*? I thought at the time that this was a very odd way to refer to a fetus.....
I never dreamed that this was indeed was how pregnancies were commonly viewed in twi.
In our marriage, not only do Steve and I have extwi baggage to deal with...but we have ex-spouse baggage to deal with as well.
From time to time baggage will come up...and when it does, we have a plan in place to alert each other that this is a "baggage" moment.
(and it can get emotional....VERY emotional)
We know to back off and give the time needed and come back to it later when we have had a chance to 'process' it to the point that it is not an emotional knee-jerk response.
We then approach it later, when we are ready, as a team.
There is no blame or shame (though there IS plenty of emotion!).
We can then approach each topic knowing that we are united as a team.
With this method...we have never had a fight or raised our voices to each other.
We realize that the enemy is not each other...but the experiences we have had either with twi or other relationships.
Steve and I posted this together....not to "brag" but to be sure that you know, Chas ... that trouble in marriage is ok....normal....and can be handled.
You and mathman are a wonderful couple.
Remember that!!!
Set up a plan so that old hurts and damages do not make your marriage less sweet...but in contrast....encourage you to support each other in the ways that your marriage and young family are so very, very sweet.
Love is a very very sweet family thing that also takes a very sweet family plan!
Cindy!, Steve!, great insight! My hubs and I have done something similar. It's the only way we've survived twi brain in our marriage. We're still yelling sometimes...but I think we like to or something... ;)-->
*********************
{{{{{Chas}}}}
You've got such a wonderful heart. Your hubs surely sees it!
Sigh....when we are dealing with issues/ baggage... I just don`t know if it is twi related, growing up with family history of alcoholism past and present related or just plain mental illness...
I just don`t know what to do to minimalise the colateral damage...ie the kids....how do I stop this from destroying yet another generation?
Okay, I'm not married yet, but I have learned one important thing (rather WE have learned it) in dealing with emotions/baggage/etc between my lovely soon-to-be-wife and me:
Don't assume the worst
When a situation comes up that could have more than one explanation, we just assume the best, and then ASK.
One of the things that killed my first marrige was assuming the worst. One of us would say or do something, and the other would assume the worst possible interpretation and then let it stew, so that it upon reflection it looked even worse than at first. When it was finally brought up (usually in anger over ANOTHER incident) the initial words or actions were so encrusted with anger and speculation that it was difficult, if not impossible) to discern what actually occurred.
One of the things that killed my first marrige was assuming the worst. One of us would say or do something, and the other would assume the worst possible interpretation and then let it stew, so that it upon reflection it looked even worse than at first.
Oak, this happened in my marriage too. I think it's because we were always looking for devil spirits everywhere. I was accused of "thinking evil" of my ex more times than I care to remember. Some of my attacks were out of defensiveness for always feeling like I was inferior or not living up to the standard of da word. Sometimes it was that he did things that I just let slide ("yielding on insignificant matters" I believe they call it) but he didn't let any little thing slide with me. Every little thing was an indication that I was getting further and further out of bounds spiritually.
"Weakness Brings Down Strength" is another example of Martindale or Wierwille making some statement as if there was no other possible way it could be, and declaring it to be TRUTH.
Does "weakness" ASWAYS bring down, or corrupt "strength"?
They would give examples like rot in a fruit taking over the whole fruit, which would be true IN THAT CASE, but why assume that SOME examples of weakness bringing down strength would mean that ALL weakness would bring down ALL strength?
I think it depends.
They used this statement to keep us isolated from non-Way people, claiming that they're weakness would corrupt our strength. If this was true, then how could witnessing ever work? How could whole cities in the Book of Acts turn away from their old beliefs (weakness by the TWI definition) to following Paul (strength)?
I was accused of "thinking evil" of my ex more times than I care to remember
As if said person didn't give you a GOOD REASON to think that way..
Getting reamed for serving with the white coffee cup instead of the beige one.. or serving the diet coke with four ice cubes instead of three- just tells me that details are regarded more important than people.
When a situation comes up that could have more than one explanation, we just assume the best, and then ASK.
One of the things that killed my first marrige was assuming the worst. One of us would say or do something, and the other would assume the worst possible interpretation and then let it stew, so that it upon reflection it looked even worse than at first. When it was finally brought up (usually in anger over ANOTHER incident) the initial words or actions were so encrusted with anger and speculation that it was difficult, if not impossible) to discern what actually occurred.
Oakspear, so true! If you are in a relationship where you know you're loved, remember THAT first and foremost. When you look at a situation through "I'm loved" it looks differently.
I've been in both places. When I was married I didn't believe I was loved. So any incident (or remark for that matter) that arose became unsurmountable. Now that I'm in a new relationship (just past our 6 year mark), one where I know that I'm loved, I've had to train my brain to think "remember you are loved, this man wants you to be happy". I've found doing this first before I react makes the way I see a situation totally different. Its not easy at first, but I've seen the changes in how I react to things now. Its much easier to fix a problem when both parties know that the other is working to make sure that they are happy, satisfied and feels loved in their relationship.
Not sure if this goes with the subject, sorry if it is a derail: Its taken me a lot of years to realize that we all have weaknesses and mine are not worse than someone else's. The combination of our strengths and weaknesses make up who we are. If we get rid of those little flaws (and I'm not talking axe murderer or abuser here) then we are no longer the person our loved ones fell in love with. I see it this way because I believe that our strengths are connected to our weaknesses. i.e. our strength in giving of ourselves will sometimes end with us being taken advantage of. So we need to recognize this and handle it correctly instead of condemning ourselves and trying to be the perfect person.
Yesterday I found myself in a situation with my husband where I was accused of loving our children more than him. He told me I had "forgotten" about him. Those words cut me to the bone and I felt he was saying our relationship was over.
Chas I have no advice for you only a song.
Perhaps this is what he really meant to say. Maybe it's about missing you...
"Sometimes it's so hard to admit that I'm last in line around here. Such is the fate of a father,I suppose. But if the truth be told,instead of hiding out inside my head,I'd rather run away with you Still ! " -Kenny Loggins
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GeorgeStGeorge
Far be it from me to act as marriage counselor, but wouldn't this be more effective face-to-face? I'm sure you guys can work this out!
As to your main point, I was too healthy and successful for leadership to bug me about stuff. Of course, I wrecked my "Green Lanternmobile" (restored '67 Chevelle) about a year after getting dumped by TWI. If any of them had heard about it, I'm sure there would have been much finger-pointing and joy that such "weakness" had been expunged from the ministry.
-->
George
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ChasUFarley
George - it's not that I'm trying to "work it out" here - but that I don't want to just make him out to be the "bad guy".... I know by now that in any marriage it takes two to fight... Since I was sharing about a recent incident, well... Sorry if it made you *uncomfortable*.
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rascal
(((chaz))) I hear what you are saying.... we go through it in our marriage as well.
In our marriage, we are both ex way and need to analyse our thought processes constantly....and I hate to say it...but unlearn the *manipulative* processes we developed in twi.
If it is ANY comfort at all, many spouses feel that abandonment when the children are small...it is all part of the growing process, part of the parenting process....learning to put the children first, and not resenting it.
When they get a little older, there will be more time together,, this is spmething every family with small children face at one time or another.
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Belle
I hear ya, Chas!
A company where I worked got bought by a huge conglomerate and at the same time some of our biggest customers were merging and cancelling much of their business with us. I could see the writing on the wall and started bringing things home after the second round of layoffs. You'da thought I had marched into the boss's office and demanded to be fired the way my ex reacted. Sheesh!! It didn't take a genius to see that more layoffs were coming down the pike.
So then, in every fellowship, I hear teachings that "just happen" to be about believing, fear and getting what you're believing for. Little comments and questions....one more reason to stick their nose in my business.
Now that I'm "out" it's the people in church, co-workers, neighbors and friends who give pause to some of the things I say and/or do. LOL! I'm not re-married, but God help the man who's naive enough to marry me.
:D-->
Just one suggestion that I might have a "problem" in an area, even if the suggestion isn't there but could be "inferred" if one were to read between the lines (read between the lines really and the inference isn't even there) I buck, arch my back and DARE you to expose any weakness I might have! Gawd I hate it when I do that! Thanks TWI for putting us always on the defensive.
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ChasUFarley
EXACTLY!
I always felt like I had to be super woman - all things to all men, yaddy, yaddy, yaddy - it was such a crock. Not only were we NOT allowed to have "excreatment happen" but had to be solid as a rock through it all. Not allowed to feel, think outside of the handy-dandy present truth box, or anything... Maybe this is more of what was expected of us as women or wives, but I felt like I had to act like the LC's wife all the time - and this was a woman who spoke freely and openly about how she, her husband and region coordinator considered whether or not she should have an abortion when she found out she had an *unplanned* pregnancy. SICK! She was down right cold about it - you'd have thought she was talking about getting a mole removed - not a baby!
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rascal
That IS sick chaz....
I remember something that my lc said when we told him that I was pregnant with our first....maybe he sensed that we were a little intimidated by our impending parenthood, n he asked, well what`s the matter, isn`t it a *keeper*? I thought at the time that this was a very odd way to refer to a fetus.....
I never dreamed that this was indeed was how pregnancies were commonly viewed in twi.
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Cindy!
In our marriage, not only do Steve and I have extwi baggage to deal with...but we have ex-spouse baggage to deal with as well.
From time to time baggage will come up...and when it does, we have a plan in place to alert each other that this is a "baggage" moment.
(and it can get emotional....VERY emotional)
We know to back off and give the time needed and come back to it later when we have had a chance to 'process' it to the point that it is not an emotional knee-jerk response.
We then approach it later, when we are ready, as a team.
There is no blame or shame (though there IS plenty of emotion!).
We can then approach each topic knowing that we are united as a team.
With this method...we have never had a fight or raised our voices to each other.
We realize that the enemy is not each other...but the experiences we have had either with twi or other relationships.
Steve and I posted this together....not to "brag" but to be sure that you know, Chas ... that trouble in marriage is ok....normal....and can be handled.
You and mathman are a wonderful couple.
Remember that!!!
Set up a plan so that old hurts and damages do not make your marriage less sweet...but in contrast....encourage you to support each other in the ways that your marriage and young family are so very, very sweet.
Love is a very very sweet family thing that also takes a very sweet family plan!
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CoolWaters
Cindy!, Steve!, great insight! My hubs and I have done something similar. It's the only way we've survived twi brain in our marriage. We're still yelling sometimes...but I think we like to or something...
;)-->
*********************
{{{{{Chas}}}}
You've got such a wonderful heart. Your hubs surely sees it!
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rascal
Sigh....when we are dealing with issues/ baggage... I just don`t know if it is twi related, growing up with family history of alcoholism past and present related or just plain mental illness...
I just don`t know what to do to minimalise the colateral damage...ie the kids....how do I stop this from destroying yet another generation?
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CoolWaters
{{{{{rascal}}}}}
You're doing the best first thing you can do...looking at it and considering your options.
It takes a long time to undo what was done...to unthink what was thought...to unravel what was tangled.
But it's worth it!
Therapy...with a licensed, non-clergy/non-religious professional...helps more than one can imagine.
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Oakspear
Okay, I'm not married yet, but I have learned one important thing (rather WE have learned it) in dealing with emotions/baggage/etc between my lovely soon-to-be-wife and me:
Don't assume the worst
When a situation comes up that could have more than one explanation, we just assume the best, and then ASK.
One of the things that killed my first marrige was assuming the worst. One of us would say or do something, and the other would assume the worst possible interpretation and then let it stew, so that it upon reflection it looked even worse than at first. When it was finally brought up (usually in anger over ANOTHER incident) the initial words or actions were so encrusted with anger and speculation that it was difficult, if not impossible) to discern what actually occurred.
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Belle
Oak said:
Oak, this happened in my marriage too. I think it's because we were always looking for devil spirits everywhere. I was accused of "thinking evil" of my ex more times than I care to remember. Some of my attacks were out of defensiveness for always feeling like I was inferior or not living up to the standard of da word. Sometimes it was that he did things that I just let slide ("yielding on insignificant matters" I believe they call it) but he didn't let any little thing slide with me. Every little thing was an indication that I was getting further and further out of bounds spiritually.
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WordWolf
Hm.
Since lcm insisted "weakness always brings down strength",
he might have been RIGHT.
Any sign of weakness, and the STRONGEST Christians were kicked out of twi.
So, their strength was brought down by the slightest weakness.
That and the paranoia and reptilian cold-blood of "leadership.
Leadership, my foot. The shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
twi "leaders" kicked people out FAST to cover their own weaknesses.
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Oakspear
"Weakness Brings Down Strength" is another example of Martindale or Wierwille making some statement as if there was no other possible way it could be, and declaring it to be TRUTH.
Does "weakness" ASWAYS bring down, or corrupt "strength"?
They would give examples like rot in a fruit taking over the whole fruit, which would be true IN THAT CASE, but why assume that SOME examples of weakness bringing down strength would mean that ALL weakness would bring down ALL strength?
I think it depends.
They used this statement to keep us isolated from non-Way people, claiming that they're weakness would corrupt our strength. If this was true, then how could witnessing ever work? How could whole cities in the Book of Acts turn away from their old beliefs (weakness by the TWI definition) to following Paul (strength)?
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Ham
As if said person didn't give you a GOOD REASON to think that way..
Getting reamed for serving with the white coffee cup instead of the beige one.. or serving the diet coke with four ice cubes instead of three- just tells me that details are regarded more important than people.
That kind of .... made me "think evil" too.
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gc
Oakspear, so true! If you are in a relationship where you know you're loved, remember THAT first and foremost. When you look at a situation through "I'm loved" it looks differently.
I've been in both places. When I was married I didn't believe I was loved. So any incident (or remark for that matter) that arose became unsurmountable. Now that I'm in a new relationship (just past our 6 year mark), one where I know that I'm loved, I've had to train my brain to think "remember you are loved, this man wants you to be happy". I've found doing this first before I react makes the way I see a situation totally different. Its not easy at first, but I've seen the changes in how I react to things now. Its much easier to fix a problem when both parties know that the other is working to make sure that they are happy, satisfied and feels loved in their relationship.
Not sure if this goes with the subject, sorry if it is a derail: Its taken me a lot of years to realize that we all have weaknesses and mine are not worse than someone else's. The combination of our strengths and weaknesses make up who we are. If we get rid of those little flaws (and I'm not talking axe murderer or abuser here) then we are no longer the person our loved ones fell in love with. I see it this way because I believe that our strengths are connected to our weaknesses. i.e. our strength in giving of ourselves will sometimes end with us being taken advantage of. So we need to recognize this and handle it correctly instead of condemning ourselves and trying to be the perfect person.
gc
edited to take out the duplicate word
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WhiteDove
Chas I have no advice for you only a song.
Perhaps this is what he really meant to say. Maybe it's about missing you...
"Sometimes it's so hard to admit that I'm last in line around here. Such is the fate of a father,I suppose. But if the truth be told,instead of hiding out inside my head,I'd rather run away with you Still ! " -Kenny Loggins
____________________________________________
"I Miss Us" (Kenny Loggins)
Look at us
And the life that we made
Oh, darlin I wouldn't trade a single thing
Still in love
But I can't help dream about yesterday
Oh yesterday
I miss Sunday mornings free and easy
Lazy days and endless evenings
I really thought somehow
That I'd be over it by now
And I miss lying in your arms till morning
With nothing on our minds but making love
Baby most of all
I miss us
Like a child
I know it is selfish to say
But sometimes I want you all to myself
For a while
Couldn't we go back and play in yesterday
Oh yesterday
Walking on the beach alone together
Sunsets that would last forever
No where else to be
Side by side just you and me
And I miss lying in your arms til morning
With nothing on our minds but making love
Baby most of all
I miss us
All that we have given up
Has all come back as love
I know thats what family is about
Still I miss
Sunday mornings free and easy
Lazy days and endless evenings
I know we'll survive
But it is eating me alive
And I miss lying in your arms till morning
With nothing on our minds but making love
I can't hold it back another minute
I'm embrassed to admit it
But I still want to be your everything
I know all that life has given us
Is way more than enough
But darlin' I can't help myself
I just love you too much
Baby most of all
I miss us.
Hear a sample http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=music&n=507846
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