Ultimately it was OK to stone an innocent 3 year old because of something minor that her daddy did?
Indirectly causing the deaths of 36 people is not minor. Ultimately, there were a lot more people who DIDN'T get stoned to death than those who did. Everybody knew the rules. Even today it is commonplace for children to suffer because of bad decisions made by parents.
Do you think OT Israel was so barbaric? In 1 Kings 20 the king of Syria, after getting his butt royally kicked repeatedly by Israel, got this advice:
1 Kings 20:31 - And his servants said unto him, Behold now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are MERCIFUL kings; let us I pray thee put sackcloth on our loins, and ropes upon our heads, and go to the king of Israel; peradventure he will save thy life.
MERCIFUL KINGS? Didn't David execute a whole nation of males and take their spoil? Taken out of context, yeah, they were real bad people, but apparently they were a lot more MERCIFUL than the other nations at that time.
God is willing to put up with a lot of garbage from people. He can work around a lot of stupidity, like we do with our own children we love, but he still won't possess anybody. Aren't you thankful for the progress human rights has made since the OT? At least in THIS country.
By the way, that website is a scream. Little lego people having sex. What a riot.
Ahhh yes. Its the old "Well, it coulda been *worse*" fallacy. -->
The very act of killing the 3 year old and her mother for the actions of the father is in and of itself barbaric. Period!
Of course there were worse things that were done by the Isrealites. That is beside the point.
Oh by the way, since at that time the OT Law was in effect, didn't one of those laws deal with the child shall not pay for his/her father's sin? Why wasn't that enforced just as rigidly, hmmmm?
Oh and this "Well don't you show mercy and patience with your own kids?" whitewash just doesn't wash, as none of us would even *think* of killing any of our own children for disobedience. Ie., we regard ourselves as smarter and more moral than that.
Now, ... if you want to interpret that as 'being smarter than God', well, ... I guess it depends if your deity approves of killing children for no better reason than 'being disobedient'.
Or is that supposed to be at a higher level of 'spiritual understanding'? -->
P.S,. Oh this little jewel is just great!
quote:
Aren't you thankful for the progress human rights has made since the OT?
Progress. Since the Old Testament!
Now this is coming from the same guy who rants about us lowly humans claiming that we are 'smarter than God'?? Yet he views today, in this country, as 'progress' in human rights, (made by the selfsame lowly humans no doubt, and in direct contradiction to the aforementioned OT Laws) ie., a better and smarter situation, since the OT period, a period of Isreal's history supposedly inspired by God? -->
Well, yeah, I DO think I am smarter than a god who would lay down rules that his "kids" couldn't possibly follow, blame the "kids" for asking for the rules, and then claim credit for saving them from those same rules.
Before you accuse me of blasphemy or something, my point is that I don't believe that a loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, wise, and merciful god was behind all of what went on in the OT. I believe it was men, who passed the buck to their deity to rationalize their barbarity.
Peaches and Buttons...WELCOME TO THE GREASESPOT! Glad you came aboard!
...When I was asked why I didn't tithe, I told them that I would, if they would show me a Levitical priest to bring my tithes to...they just stood there with their mouths wide open...didn't know what to say...
Before you accuse me of blasphemy or something, my point is that I don't believe that a loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, wise, and merciful god was behind all of what went on in the OT. I believe it was men, who passed the buck to their deity to rationalize their barbarity.
Which strikes as being the same situation with the New Testament when mixed with the Old, as the past 2,000 years of Christian history attests. Excellent post, Oak.
And Bob - your illustration of the 3 year old girl in the "stoning pit" was most profound.
I believe it was men, who passed the buck to their deity to rationalize their barbarity.
Which strikes as being the same situation with the New Testament when mixed with the Old, as the past 2,000 years of Christian history attests. Excellent post, Oak.
And Bob - your illustration of the 3 year old girl in the "stoning pit" was most profound.
A savage, "bloodthirsty Yahweh" indeed.
Danny
I agree! TWI was a master at "researching" those atrocities so to justify their atrocities. That's where the "women belong to the king" line of b.s. came from, too. Lego Judges
The whole book of Judges is nothing but massacres:
Yeah, that "Christians Should be Prosperous" thing really got to me just when I was preparing my exit.
There's this BIG JUMP in logic there. "Oh, we know the NT doesn't say to tithe, BUT in the OT they did, SO now that we're in the Grace Period, we should do MORE than in the OT."
-->HUH??!!??!?!!? -->
Outandabout -- Sure thing -- they picked and chose from the OT as to what they wanted to promote (like money and sex), and did a good job of *conveniently* ignoring anything else.!
If docvic and his crew were truely promoting what the New Testament says about giving, I'm surprised they never included this tidbit from Acts 2:44-45.
quote:
verse 44 - And all that believed were together, and had all things in common;
verse 45 - And sold their possesions and goods, and parted them to all (men), as every man had need.
Was reading about this tonight in David Anderson's book THE TWO WAYS OF THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH, and he had an interesting thing about this.
quote:
Note that in verses 44 and 45, all that believed sold their plurality and gave to others as the others had need. THE INDIVIDUAL NOT ONLY SOLD HIS EXCESS GOODS, for now he had a life that transcended mere worldly abundance, HE ALSO DECIDED WHERE THE PROCEEDS WERE TO GO.
(quoted from The Two Ways of the First Century Church, David Anderson - author)
If docvic was so gung-ho on promoting NT over OT, how come he never taught that the individual believer should decide where his/her *offering* should go?? If we are *supposed to more* than the OT 10%, it seems both fitting, (and biblical) for us to decide where we wish to give , and not up to them to tell us that we have to give to them.
I give *joyfully* all the time, and it is usually to individuals, and not a ministry. I have no regrets. I don't care. Anything from CSBP is dust in the wind, old *junk* doctrine, and scattered sand -- nothing solid to build on. They (twi) got it wrong back in the 70's, and I really don't think they've improved at all, with the passing of the years.
What twi taught about tithing was simply their way of telling us we didn't know jack sh** about which verses of the bible were relevant, and which ones were not.
Peaches and Buttons...WELCOME TO THE GREASESPOT! Glad you came aboard!
...When I was asked why I didn't tithe, I told them that I would, if they would show me a Levitical priest to bring my tithes to...they just stood there with their mouths wide open...didn't know what to say...
Groucho -------
(Really, and truely) --- LMAO HERE!!!!!:D--> :D--> :D-->
I can just see the look on their faces now! :P--> --> :P-->
Really..that's what happened...I had just spent a weekend with two guys in another city, that were twi clergymen and had just walked out of the famous "Chris Geer clergy meeting"...they spent a lot of time talking about how the the tithe was an old testament deal and so on and so forth...when I confronted the twi leadership with this stuff...the best they could say was "Are you saying that Dr. Wierwille was wrong?"...no scripture, no discussion...that was it...when I said "yeah, he was wrong"...I was labeled as being debbil possessed! LMAO.
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johniam
Indirectly causing the deaths of 36 people is not minor. Ultimately, there were a lot more people who DIDN'T get stoned to death than those who did. Everybody knew the rules. Even today it is commonplace for children to suffer because of bad decisions made by parents.
Do you think OT Israel was so barbaric? In 1 Kings 20 the king of Syria, after getting his butt royally kicked repeatedly by Israel, got this advice:
1 Kings 20:31 - And his servants said unto him, Behold now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are MERCIFUL kings; let us I pray thee put sackcloth on our loins, and ropes upon our heads, and go to the king of Israel; peradventure he will save thy life.
MERCIFUL KINGS? Didn't David execute a whole nation of males and take their spoil? Taken out of context, yeah, they were real bad people, but apparently they were a lot more MERCIFUL than the other nations at that time.
God is willing to put up with a lot of garbage from people. He can work around a lot of stupidity, like we do with our own children we love, but he still won't possess anybody. Aren't you thankful for the progress human rights has made since the OT? At least in THIS country.
By the way, that website is a scream. Little lego people having sex. What a riot.
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GarthP2000
Ahhh yes. Its the old "Well, it coulda been *worse*" fallacy.
-->
The very act of killing the 3 year old and her mother for the actions of the father is in and of itself barbaric. Period!
Of course there were worse things that were done by the Isrealites. That is beside the point.
Oh by the way, since at that time the OT Law was in effect, didn't one of those laws deal with the child shall not pay for his/her father's sin? Why wasn't that enforced just as rigidly, hmmmm?
Oh and this "Well don't you show mercy and patience with your own kids?" whitewash just doesn't wash, as none of us would even *think* of killing any of our own children for disobedience. Ie., we regard ourselves as smarter and more moral than that.
Now, ... if you want to interpret that as 'being smarter than God', well, ... I guess it depends if your deity approves of killing children for no better reason than 'being disobedient'.
Or is that supposed to be at a higher level of 'spiritual understanding'?
-->
P.S,. Oh this little jewel is just great!
Progress. Since the Old Testament!
Now this is coming from the same guy who rants about us lowly humans claiming that we are 'smarter than God'?? Yet he views today, in this country, as 'progress' in human rights, (made by the selfsame lowly humans no doubt, and in direct contradiction to the aforementioned OT Laws) ie., a better and smarter situation, since the OT period, a period of Isreal's history supposedly inspired by God?
-->
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Oakspear
johniam:
Well, yeah, I DO think I am smarter than a god who would lay down rules that his "kids" couldn't possibly follow, blame the "kids" for asking for the rules, and then claim credit for saving them from those same rules.
Before you accuse me of blasphemy or something, my point is that I don't believe that a loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, wise, and merciful god was behind all of what went on in the OT. I believe it was men, who passed the buck to their deity to rationalize their barbarity.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Peaches and Buttons...WELCOME TO THE GREASESPOT! Glad you came aboard!
...When I was asked why I didn't tithe, I told them that I would, if they would show me a Levitical priest to bring my tithes to...they just stood there with their mouths wide open...didn't know what to say...
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TheInvisibleDan
Which strikes as being the same situation with the New Testament when mixed with the Old, as the past 2,000 years of Christian history attests. Excellent post, Oak.
And Bob - your illustration of the 3 year old girl in the "stoning pit" was most profound.
A savage, "bloodthirsty Yahweh" indeed.
Danny
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Belle
I agree! TWI was a master at "researching" those atrocities so to justify their atrocities. That's where the "women belong to the king" line of b.s. came from, too. Lego Judges
The whole book of Judges is nothing but massacres:
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johniam
You guys gonna pass that off as logic then I need the "expanded translation" of Webster's.
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dmiller
Outandabout -- Sure thing -- they picked and chose from the OT as to what they wanted to promote (like money and sex), and did a good job of *conveniently* ignoring anything else.!
If docvic and his crew were truely promoting what the New Testament says about giving, I'm surprised they never included this tidbit from Acts 2:44-45.
Was reading about this tonight in David Anderson's book THE TWO WAYS OF THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH, and he had an interesting thing about this.
(quoted from The Two Ways of the First Century Church, David Anderson - author)
If docvic was so gung-ho on promoting NT over OT, how come he never taught that the individual believer should decide where his/her *offering* should go?? If we are *supposed to more* than the OT 10%, it seems both fitting, (and biblical) for us to decide where we wish to give , and not up to them to tell us that we have to give to them.
I give *joyfully* all the time, and it is usually to individuals, and not a ministry. I have no regrets. I don't care. Anything from CSBP is dust in the wind, old *junk* doctrine, and scattered sand -- nothing solid to build on. They (twi) got it wrong back in the 70's, and I really don't think they've improved at all, with the passing of the years.
What twi taught about tithing was simply their way of telling us we didn't know jack sh** about which verses of the bible were relevant, and which ones were not.
And many of us bought into that lie.
:(-->
David
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dmiller
Groucho -------
(Really, and truely) --- LMAO HERE!!!!!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
I can just see the look on their faces now!
:P--> 
--> 
:P-->
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dmiller
And Peaches -- welcome!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Really..that's what happened...I had just spent a weekend with two guys in another city, that were twi clergymen and had just walked out of the famous "Chris Geer clergy meeting"...they spent a lot of time talking about how the the tithe was an old testament deal and so on and so forth...when I confronted the twi leadership with this stuff...the best they could say was "Are you saying that Dr. Wierwille was wrong?"...no scripture, no discussion...that was it...when I said "yeah, he was wrong"...I was labeled as being debbil possessed! LMAO.
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