I don’t think it is so much a picking and choosing. TWI accepts the entire Old Testament as God’s words verbatim. It is, as with everyone else, their interpretation style and what they want it to say that has warped their brains.
For example, all O.T. records are filtered through the N.T. If there are any discrepancies, the N.T. wins (which is an invalid research method and violates their own “first usage†technique). So when the O.T. condemns adultery, they can find something in the N.T. to cancel it out as in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians regarding marriage and that we are under no such laws (even this is a stretch). Supposedly, Paul was able to remain single and “lead about women.†Therefore, all adultery/fornication records in the O.T. must be referring to spiritual adultery/fornication, which can further be defined as worshiping other gods.
If you could dig deep into the mind of VP or Craig, you would most likely find that their interpretation and teachings would almost always line up with what they thought it should be. For most people, it is clear as day that adultery is condemned by the Bible but, as with any religious writing, you can always find a way to get it to say what you think it should.
Remember when it was a rare event that anyone was sent packing by TWI? But Craig found himself needing a way to justify getting rid of people on a whim. All of a sudden, Craig figured out what Paul meant when he said to “cast one over to Satan for the saving of the soul.†Roman’s “mark such a one and avoid them†became clear as day. The N.T.’s household records were tied into Zion of the O.T. It was easy now to see that God wants a clean household. It all lined up and validated what Craig was doing.
Tithing is an example of the opposite. Both VP and Craig wanted money flowing into TWI. Yet, any honest reading of the Bible can show that tithing was an O.T. tax levied on Israel to support the Levities, who were not allowed to own land, farm, raise livestock, etc., but be dedicated to running the temple. The tithe was almost always what the people grew or raised, not money (if such a thing even existed then), and was only to support the Levities. The N.T. says nothing about tithing but only a reference to giving. Since TWI needs money so the upper-ups aren’t required to work a real job, this idea is transformed into a spiritual principle, even a spiritual law. The lack of records portraying a dedicated leadership in the first century, supported by tithing, or the fact that even modern day Jews do not tithe because there is no high priest or temple, is quietly dismissed.
The examples are endless but the result the same. The Bible says anything you want it to say. Sometimes you have to twist it a bit more to get it to say it, but what you want is always there.
It is also the natural tendency of the brain to ignore anything that contradicts what it already believes. Changing one’s beliefs requires an incentive, something that will benefit the individual, in order for the brain to start considering contrary information. Otherwise, considering contrary information becomes painful with the risk that one might find out they are wrong. No one wants to be wrong, to find out they have wasted part of their life being wrong. It is easier to just ignore it.
What I find interesting in all this is the fact that TWI places any emphasis on their being a RESEARCH ministry anymore. Also, I don't remember hearing the words "P.I." or "Private interpretation" anymore because they are so into PI that it's not even funny!
I believe that they went to the OT more and more because they like LAW, not as a way to steward creation, but as a way to lord over and abuse people. Since people were told that TWI was not a religion and would not fetter them, then they believed it and, in essence, call the "bitter sweet and the sweet bitter."
Seems pick and choose depends much on the context of the situation.
If its about THEM, they seem to like to pick something peaceful and "blessed" like Psalm 103.
If its about OTHERS, they usually can find something nasty to curse with, like in Joshua with the Achan in the camp.
Whatever fits the "need" I guess.
It seems quite easy to steal the blessings or benefits of God for themselves, and at the same time leave the curses to hurl at the "ungodly" or "unfaithful" in their eyes.
Not only did they pick and choose what parts to follow (in complete opposition to what PFAL's stated aims were), but the interpretation was sometimes laced with such flimsy logic as to be laughable.
For instance, Wierwille stated in "Christians Should Be Prosperous" that since the believers in the OT gave 10%, we as sons should give more. Huh? Mayb-bee, but you don't see any scripture to back it up. If that logic was correct, then, since OT believers gave one seventh of thir time (the sabbath), we as sons of God should give more: yay! TWO days of rest!
VP used the "he who sows sparingly..." stint in Corinthians to justify bringing in more cash from those he had duped.
Since the O.T. minimum was 10%, then that was sparingly. Get it?
I'm of the opinion that if God can feed 5,000 with only a loaf of bread and a few fishes, he can surely provide food, clothing, and shelter for those who want to "move the Word" full time. Why does He need to extract a tax on me to pay for their lifestyle?
Also, if tithe/abs/giving is such a spiritual law, then where is the giving of the full-time man of God? Can't count his giving of his life for moving de word. He's being paid from the tithe tax pool for that.
Yeah, that "Christians Should be Prosperous" thing really got to me just when I was preparing my exit.
There's this BIG JUMP in logic there. "Oh, we know the NT doesn't say to tithe, BUT in the OT they did, SO now that we're in the Grace Period, we should do MORE than in the OT."
That reminds me of when they were constructing the docvic(praise be his name) WOW Auditorium.
The ministry gods decided that the ministry should abundantly share, since that was the principle. So who did they give to? They gave money so as to finance the docvic(praise be his name) WOW Auditorium, that's who they gave to!
It describes numerous atrocities that by themselves should repulse anyone...people, even women and children, being slaughtered for such minor infractions...because the husband stole some goods from a conquered city.
I think it's got to be more than "stolen goods" and that's what makes it NOT minor. Perhaps disobedience and because God knew what that particular disobedience would lead to including possibly the spread of something nasty to others?
For instance, the kids who are utterly reprehensible, doing terrible things like violent murder...often they started off with something "minor" such as cruelty to animals.
I just accept that God knows more than I do and that's why something which seems minor (but only to me) is dealt harshly with (by God), and why other things which seem more major (i.e., David having Uriah killed) are not as harshly dealt with.
I just accept that God knows more than I do and that's why something which seems minor (but only to me) is dealt harshly with (by God),
Picture this:
A 3 year old girl, standing in a pit with the rest of her family. A stone is hurled at her, hitting her in the leg, cutting it open and breaking her bones. She screams in terror and pain. She starts yelling for mommy to please help her. She can't understand why they are doing this to her and her family. She looks up at her mother just in time to see a rock hit her in the head, cracking open her skull. Her eyes are full of terror. Finally, someone aims well enough to hit her in the head and put her out of her misery.
What did she do to deserve this? Have a father who stole some gold and a God that knew she would grow up and reject Him?
In this instance, I think I know more than the blood-thirsty Yahweh (or the KJV Jehova).
And there are those among them that would do the same to some if not all of us.
One thing you can say though, the law worked death, literally.
I still don't quite what to make of all this yet. But I agree with you, I can't understand how a God of love can dictate and organize death, especially to the innocent.
The argument that the Almighty would know ahead of time of some devilishness, and dispatch it with due haste- well, what about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., etc...? They'd a been greasespots well before midnight, along with any of their possible devilish "replacements".
A lot of the OT was certainly bloody. Seems they pick and choose the worst of it if it seems to support their desires.
But the point is more that the OT had all the laws handed down by God that are absolutely horrendous and not in keeping with an "All Loving" god.
And moreso, TWI picks and chooses according to their desired manipulation of people which laws they consider "valid" still today and which laws aren't. They like the letter of the law because it allows them to pigeonhole people, just like these OT laws did.
The law literally DID work death, Ham.
And if that was to protect the people, then how'd you end up with such evil rulers - even among the Judean people?
Here are some other laws TWI doesn't teach because it serves no purpose for them:
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
quote:
But suppose the man's accusations are true, and her virginity could not be proved.
In such cases, the judges must take the girl to the door of her father's home, and the men of the town will stone her to death. She has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents' home. Such evil must be cleansed from among you.
Stone a girl to death for having pre-marital sex?? Is that truly worthy of death – by stoning, no less?
Deuteronomy 22:22 – 27
quote:
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die…..so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
If a damsel [that is] a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die;
Wonder why they never taught these verses…..If it were OT times, we could have stoned vee pee, craig, don w, howard a, and many more….
Deuteronomy 23:1
quote:
If a man's testicles are crushed or his penis is cut off, he may not be included in the assembly of the LORD.
Yeppers! This makes perfect sense. Wonder if TWI has considered making this one a standard rule...…nawwwww…....they’d prefer it the OTHER way around so that rosie and donna can eliminate those ghastly men from their congregation
while the law was perfect, it was set up so that people would have to rely on God's grace to get by.
God wanted his people to be truly holy (consecrated, set apart) from the world.
Given the world at that time with every other pagan culture given over to sex and human sacrifice, the standard for His people had to be extreme.
But the law also had plenty of grace in it as well and love too. Aliens, widows and the poor were supposed to be cared for.
But Israel (and now by extension, us) could not handle that and so went into debauchery, apostasy and legalism to get by.
We do the same today, TWI couldn't handle grace and mercy and so went off the cliff. Other groups seek legalistic methods and others just tell God to leave.
God didn't want that kind of law; the people did. People want laws/ rules to control others. We need some/ don't need others. Ultimately it was OK; just gave Christ something else to deliver people from.
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Bob
I don’t think it is so much a picking and choosing. TWI accepts the entire Old Testament as God’s words verbatim. It is, as with everyone else, their interpretation style and what they want it to say that has warped their brains.
For example, all O.T. records are filtered through the N.T. If there are any discrepancies, the N.T. wins (which is an invalid research method and violates their own “first usage†technique). So when the O.T. condemns adultery, they can find something in the N.T. to cancel it out as in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians regarding marriage and that we are under no such laws (even this is a stretch). Supposedly, Paul was able to remain single and “lead about women.†Therefore, all adultery/fornication records in the O.T. must be referring to spiritual adultery/fornication, which can further be defined as worshiping other gods.
If you could dig deep into the mind of VP or Craig, you would most likely find that their interpretation and teachings would almost always line up with what they thought it should be. For most people, it is clear as day that adultery is condemned by the Bible but, as with any religious writing, you can always find a way to get it to say what you think it should.
Remember when it was a rare event that anyone was sent packing by TWI? But Craig found himself needing a way to justify getting rid of people on a whim. All of a sudden, Craig figured out what Paul meant when he said to “cast one over to Satan for the saving of the soul.†Roman’s “mark such a one and avoid them†became clear as day. The N.T.’s household records were tied into Zion of the O.T. It was easy now to see that God wants a clean household. It all lined up and validated what Craig was doing.
Tithing is an example of the opposite. Both VP and Craig wanted money flowing into TWI. Yet, any honest reading of the Bible can show that tithing was an O.T. tax levied on Israel to support the Levities, who were not allowed to own land, farm, raise livestock, etc., but be dedicated to running the temple. The tithe was almost always what the people grew or raised, not money (if such a thing even existed then), and was only to support the Levities. The N.T. says nothing about tithing but only a reference to giving. Since TWI needs money so the upper-ups aren’t required to work a real job, this idea is transformed into a spiritual principle, even a spiritual law. The lack of records portraying a dedicated leadership in the first century, supported by tithing, or the fact that even modern day Jews do not tithe because there is no high priest or temple, is quietly dismissed.
The examples are endless but the result the same. The Bible says anything you want it to say. Sometimes you have to twist it a bit more to get it to say it, but what you want is always there.
It is also the natural tendency of the brain to ignore anything that contradicts what it already believes. Changing one’s beliefs requires an incentive, something that will benefit the individual, in order for the brain to start considering contrary information. Otherwise, considering contrary information becomes painful with the risk that one might find out they are wrong. No one wants to be wrong, to find out they have wasted part of their life being wrong. It is easier to just ignore it.
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ChasUFarley
What I find interesting in all this is the fact that TWI places any emphasis on their being a RESEARCH ministry anymore. Also, I don't remember hearing the words "P.I." or "Private interpretation" anymore because they are so into PI that it's not even funny!
I believe that they went to the OT more and more because they like LAW, not as a way to steward creation, but as a way to lord over and abuse people. Since people were told that TWI was not a religion and would not fetter them, then they believed it and, in essence, call the "bitter sweet and the sweet bitter."
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GeorgeStGeorge
Real research requires adjusting one's theory to account for the data. Unfortunately, it's often easier to adjust the data to fit one's theory.
George
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Ham
Seems pick and choose depends much on the context of the situation.
If its about THEM, they seem to like to pick something peaceful and "blessed" like Psalm 103.
If its about OTHERS, they usually can find something nasty to curse with, like in Joshua with the Achan in the camp.
Whatever fits the "need" I guess.
It seems quite easy to steal the blessings or benefits of God for themselves, and at the same time leave the curses to hurl at the "ungodly" or "unfaithful" in their eyes.
The unbridled tongue sure is evil, indeed.
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Belle
Don't go using big words around us rednecks, Ham. We have to skip over the ones we don't understand and I already skip over too many as it is.
;)-->
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Ham
OK, Belle, heh heh.
I used the wrong word anyway. It should have been "appropriate".
There, I fixed it..
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Oakspear
Not only did they pick and choose what parts to follow (in complete opposition to what PFAL's stated aims were), but the interpretation was sometimes laced with such flimsy logic as to be laughable.
For instance, Wierwille stated in "Christians Should Be Prosperous" that since the believers in the OT gave 10%, we as sons should give more. Huh? Mayb-bee, but you don't see any scripture to back it up. If that logic was correct, then, since OT believers gave one seventh of thir time (the sabbath), we as sons of God should give more: yay! TWO days of rest!
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Bob
VP used the "he who sows sparingly..." stint in Corinthians to justify bringing in more cash from those he had duped.
Since the O.T. minimum was 10%, then that was sparingly. Get it?
I'm of the opinion that if God can feed 5,000 with only a loaf of bread and a few fishes, he can surely provide food, clothing, and shelter for those who want to "move the Word" full time. Why does He need to extract a tax on me to pay for their lifestyle?
Also, if tithe/abs/giving is such a spiritual law, then where is the giving of the full-time man of God? Can't count his giving of his life for moving de word. He's being paid from the tithe tax pool for that.
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outandabout
Yeah, that "Christians Should be Prosperous" thing really got to me just when I was preparing my exit.
There's this BIG JUMP in logic there. "Oh, we know the NT doesn't say to tithe, BUT in the OT they did, SO now that we're in the Grace Period, we should do MORE than in the OT."
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Steve!
That reminds me of when they were constructing the docvic(praise be his name) WOW Auditorium.
The ministry gods decided that the ministry should abundantly share, since that was the principle. So who did they give to? They gave money so as to finance the docvic(praise be his name) WOW Auditorium, that's who they gave to!
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Peaches and Buttons
Belle wrote:
I think it's got to be more than "stolen goods" and that's what makes it NOT minor. Perhaps disobedience and because God knew what that particular disobedience would lead to including possibly the spread of something nasty to others?
For instance, the kids who are utterly reprehensible, doing terrible things like violent murder...often they started off with something "minor" such as cruelty to animals.
I just accept that God knows more than I do and that's why something which seems minor (but only to me) is dealt harshly with (by God), and why other things which seem more major (i.e., David having Uriah killed) are not as harshly dealt with.
Just my thoughts.
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Ham
Yep. And we are sooooo thankful for that pile of bricks in da cornfield..
My name is even in the stinkin book, if they still have it on display.
Ptooie.
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Ham
Now you're talking!
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Bob
Picture this:
A 3 year old girl, standing in a pit with the rest of her family. A stone is hurled at her, hitting her in the leg, cutting it open and breaking her bones. She screams in terror and pain. She starts yelling for mommy to please help her. She can't understand why they are doing this to her and her family. She looks up at her mother just in time to see a rock hit her in the head, cracking open her skull. Her eyes are full of terror. Finally, someone aims well enough to hit her in the head and put her out of her misery.
What did she do to deserve this? Have a father who stole some gold and a God that knew she would grow up and reject Him?
In this instance, I think I know more than the blood-thirsty Yahweh (or the KJV Jehova).
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Ham
And there are those among them that would do the same to some if not all of us.
One thing you can say though, the law worked death, literally.
I still don't quite what to make of all this yet. But I agree with you, I can't understand how a God of love can dictate and organize death, especially to the innocent.
The argument that the Almighty would know ahead of time of some devilishness, and dispatch it with due haste- well, what about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., etc...? They'd a been greasespots well before midnight, along with any of their possible devilish "replacements".
A lot of the OT was certainly bloody. Seems they pick and choose the worst of it if it seems to support their desires.
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Belle
Peaches, actually that was me quoting Bob.
;)-->
But the point is more that the OT had all the laws handed down by God that are absolutely horrendous and not in keeping with an "All Loving" god.
And moreso, TWI picks and chooses according to their desired manipulation of people which laws they consider "valid" still today and which laws aren't. They like the letter of the law because it allows them to pigeonhole people, just like these OT laws did.
The law literally DID work death, Ham.
And if that was to protect the people, then how'd you end up with such evil rulers - even among the Judean people?
Here are some other laws TWI doesn't teach because it serves no purpose for them:
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Stone a girl to death for having pre-marital sex?? Is that truly worthy of death – by stoning, no less?
Deuteronomy 22:22 – 27
Wonder why they never taught these verses…..If it were OT times, we could have stoned vee pee, craig, don w, howard a, and many more….
Deuteronomy 23:1
Yeppers! This makes perfect sense. Wonder if TWI has considered making this one a standard rule...…nawwwww…....they’d prefer it the OTHER way around so that rosie and donna can eliminate those ghastly men from their congregation
This is a great place to learn more about the Law: The Law Plain and Simple
Mr. H, you're gonna love that site!!
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def59
while the law was perfect, it was set up so that people would have to rely on God's grace to get by.
God wanted his people to be truly holy (consecrated, set apart) from the world.
Given the world at that time with every other pagan culture given over to sex and human sacrifice, the standard for His people had to be extreme.
But the law also had plenty of grace in it as well and love too. Aliens, widows and the poor were supposed to be cared for.
But Israel (and now by extension, us) could not handle that and so went into debauchery, apostasy and legalism to get by.
We do the same today, TWI couldn't handle grace and mercy and so went off the cliff. Other groups seek legalistic methods and others just tell God to leave.
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Oakspear
Aaaaw...what a merciful god...the aliens, widows and poor were supposed to be cared for...unless they thoughtlessly worshipped another god.
What does worship of the loving and merciful god of the Old Testament demand? Worship me or I'll kill you!
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johniam
God didn't want that kind of law; the people did. People want laws/ rules to control others. We need some/ don't need others. Ultimately it was OK; just gave Christ something else to deliver people from.
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excathedra
okay i'm banning myself for the night
nighty night
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Oakspear
Too boring, huh?
I guess every thread can't be all things to all men (and women). Let's jazz things up a little, so that excathedra will be better entertained ; - )
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Oakspear
God didn't want that kind of law...the people did! Didn't Saul get his comeupance for using that excuse?
You would think that the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the whole universe (including the suburbs) could have gotten it right the FIRST TIME!
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Ham
Belle, I loved it. Especially the one about male genital injury. One frame, the guy reminded me of the Bobbit character, heh heh.
"Aggggh" heh heh.
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johniam
Do you have kids? Didn't you have to have patience with them. Didn't you have to be flexible. But God isn't as smart as you, right?
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